The True Root of All Evil...

[Clement]

Not too self righteous, are we?

Here's a little parable for you:

That is certainly not my intention.

But may I ask, how did you derive that from me starting a thread about selfishness being the root of all evil? In this post of mine you quoted, I asked "what would the world be like if everyone was completely unselfish"? I don't think that's "self righteous", but I may be wrong.

I've clearly stated that I'm far from an unselfish person, and that I (like most others) have a long, long way to go.

Because motive is everything. Christianity is based on motive, you can be as unselfish as you think you need to be, but if you do it grudgingly, or you think there is something in it for you, you might as well not do it at all as far as Christ is concerned.

This is the problem we run into with our friends on the political left. They couldn't care less about the poor, their motivation is to make you feel bad and look bad. They can claim to be selfless but they are only blackmailing others.

 

[RKMBrown]

Greed – still – in your example is the result of the child being selfish.

Let’s approach it this way. In a world where everyone was selfish, greed could most definitely exist. But can greed exist in a world where everyone was unselfishly loving?

I think the answer to that question is important.

You defined the terms I tied them together. The child's selfishness is the result of the parents unselfish love. Thus unselfish love of one person led to selfishness in another and showing itself in the form of greed and other undesirable traits in the child. IOW the apple got pulled from the tree.

Your new definition is circular. You are asking me if no one is selfish how can anyone be selfish. It's circular.

But RKM, if everyone on the planet was completely and utterly unselfish, in what form would greed exist? How could it exist?

If you are an unselfish person in every way imaginable, you are not going to be greedy. That's a fact.
If you are an unselfish person in every way imaginable, you are not going to be a glutton, or a sloth, or envious. That is a fact.

Selfishness is the root of those evils because in the absence of selfishness they do not exist.

.

You are close to full understanding of my point. Very close.

What you are describing is Eden.

Eden leads to the apple getting pulled from the tree. Why? Because we are human. Once the apple gets pulled the chain of events occur that lead us to where we are now.

If you want a perfect Eden it has to be formed with the understanding of the human condition. The condition being that some people really are evil, and some people are selfish to the point of only wanting Eden for themselves at the expense of others. How does it happen? Good intentions are not in and of themselves the arbiters of results.

My earlier example was purposeful. Parents have to teach some of their children that greed is bad, for those children who may tend to be greedy and/or selfish it is even harder to enter the kingdom of heaven than for those born with a selfless soul out of the gate.

 

[KevinWestern]

Because motive is everything. Christianity is based on motive, you can be as unselfish as you think you need to be, but if you do it grudgingly, or you think there is something in it for you, you might as well not do it at all as far as Christ is concerned.

If you do something grudgingly, or think there's something in it for you, then you are not acting unselfishly. Isn't that the point I'm making?

I'm talking about everyone truly unselfishly loving one another. This is not giving because you expect to receive something back (which is the basis for many marriages and so called "loving relationships" today, unfortunately). If you truly love your wife, your actions are solely for the betterment of her and not yourself.

This is the problem we run into with our friends on the political left. They couldn't care less about the poor, their motivation is to make you feel bad and look bad. They can claim to be selfless but they are only blackmailing others.

I think that's too vast of a generalization to be true. There are people on both the right and the left who care very much about others, just like there are incredibly selfish people on both sides.

 

[KevinWestern]

You defined the terms I tied them together. The child's selfishness is the result of the parents unselfish love. Thus unselfish love of one person led to selfishness in another and showing itself in the form of greed and other undesirable traits in the child. IOW the apple got pulled from the tree.

Your new definition is circular. You are asking me if no one is selfish how can anyone be selfish. It's circular.

But RKM, if everyone on the planet was completely and utterly unselfish, in what form would greed exist? How could it exist?

If you are an unselfish person in every way imaginable, you are not going to be greedy. That's a fact.
If you are an unselfish person in every way imaginable, you are not going to be a glutton, or a sloth, or envious. That is a fact.

Selfishness is the root of those evils because in the absence of selfishness they do not exist.

.

You are close to full understanding of my point. Very close.

What you are describing is Eden.

Eden leads to the apple getting pulled from the tree. Why? Because we are human. Once the apple gets pulled the chain of events occur that lead us to where we are now.

If you want a perfect Eden it has to be formed with the understanding of the human condition. The condition being that some people really are evil, and some people are selfish to the point of only wanting Eden for themselves at the expense of others. How does it happen? Good intentions are not in and of themselves the arbiters of results.

My earlier example was purposeful. Parents have to teach some of their children that greed is bad, for those children who may tend to be greedy and/or selfish it is even harder to enter the kingdom of heaven than for those born with a selfless soul out of the gate.

But I think we're starting (maybe, correct me if I'm wrong) to explore territories where you and I think differently with regards to spirituality.

I consider you, me, and everyone around us "not separate" from God in the end. Yes, in our "human condition" the illusion of separateness naturally occurs, and selfishness naturally occurs, however it is our job to transcend the human condition - the ego - and rejoin the whole (which is "God" - if you want to call it that). I believe this dense, material reality is sort of like a prison, and that once you transcend the ego and break the cycle of reincarnation you will return to a spiritual body that is "One" with everything.

Do we differ greatly here in belief? I know that many Christians consider "humans" and "God" separate entities.

 

[RKMBrown]

I have three children. Two of my children are more like me, selfish to a point but having a reasoning soul that can choose good vs. evil, with the general tendency to choose good over evil.

One of my children is completely different. This child is truly selfless. Nearly everything he does is based on selfless desires to help others... to do for others. Though he is a very smart person some people see him as being simple minded and naive. This because he just does not go through life with the same filtered glasses and guarded personalities as most others do. Oddly, most people see him as being emotionally immature.

 

[KevinWestern]

I have three children. Two of my children are more like me, selfish to a point but having a reasoning soul that can choose good vs. evil, with the general tendency to choose good over evil.

One of my children is completely different. This child is truly selfless. Nearly everything he does is based on selfless desires to help others... to do for others. Though he is a very smart person some people see him as being simple minded and naive. This because he just does not go through life with the same filtered glasses and guarded personalities as most others do. Oddly, most people see him as being emotionally immature.

Nice story, thanks for sharing. It's amazing how that works, and how selflessness comes absolutely naturally and how sometimes it has to be learned.

Just sharing my belief but many think that we reincarnate here on earth and that with each "rebirth" we don't lose all the things we've learned before. Souls that have made great progress in past lives (perhaps like your "selfless child") are born as highly evolved beings right off the bat. It's like one big long string that continues until we "break out".

Many believe when Jesus "ascended", he was breaking out of the prison of this dense, human condition. He was rejoining the "One" in the spiritual realm. Funny that this is the exact thing that the Hindus, Buddhists, and many other religions from all around the world describes when one reaches "enlightenment". They're all connected.

Cool stuff, RKM. I have no children yet myself but hope to one day with my wife.

 

[RKMBrown]

But RKM, if everyone on the planet was completely and utterly unselfish, in what form would greed exist? How could it exist?

If you are an unselfish person in every way imaginable, you are not going to be greedy. That's a fact.
If you are an unselfish person in every way imaginable, you are not going to be a glutton, or a sloth, or envious. That is a fact.

Selfishness is the root of those evils because in the absence of selfishness they do not exist.

.

You are close to full understanding of my point. Very close.

What you are describing is Eden.

Eden leads to the apple getting pulled from the tree. Why? Because we are human. Once the apple gets pulled the chain of events occur that lead us to where we are now.

If you want a perfect Eden it has to be formed with the understanding of the human condition. The condition being that some people really are evil, and some people are selfish to the point of only wanting Eden for themselves at the expense of others. How does it happen? Good intentions are not in and of themselves the arbiters of results.

My earlier example was purposeful. Parents have to teach some of their children that greed is bad, for those children who may tend to be greedy and/or selfish it is even harder to enter the kingdom of heaven than for those born with a selfless soul out of the gate.

But I think we're starting (maybe, correct me if I'm wrong) to explore territories where you and I think differently with regards to spirituality.

I consider you, me, and everyone around us "not separate" from God in the end. Yes, in our "human condition" the illusion of separateness naturally occurs, and selfishness naturally occurs, however it is our job to transcend the human condition - the ego - and rejoin the whole (which is "God" - if you want to call it that). I believe this dense, material reality is sort of like a prison, and that once you transcend the ego and break the cycle of reincarnation you will return to a spiritual body that is "One" with everything.

Do we differ greatly here in belief? I know that many Christians consider "humans" and "God" separate entities.

I'm already there. I'm a spiritual being with a body. My body is not my prison, nor is this universe. My god is the creator of the universe. The architect if you will, of all that is. I choose my life in this body on this earth as my heaven on earth. I choose, sometimes, to impart to others that which may get them to the same heaven on earth that I enjoy

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Progressive ideology which is the idea that men cannot take care of themselves and further, that only government knows best is the root of all evil and is responsible for genocide unprecedented in human history

Sent from smartphone using my wits and Taptalk

 

[KevinWestern]

Progressive ideology which is the idea that men cannot take care of themselves and further, that only government knows best is the root of all evil and is responsible for genocide unprecedented in human history

Sent from smartphone using my wits and Taptalk

If a government was run entirely by unselfish, loving humans, there would be no government sponsored genocide. Why would people who unselfishly love all things want to kill millions of innocent people?

Selfishness is what makes government behave in "evil" ways. It's the lust for power, the lust to control, the lust to help YOUR friends at the expense of others.

 

[RKMBrown]

I have three children. Two of my children are more like me, selfish to a point but having a reasoning soul that can choose good vs. evil, with the general tendency to choose good over evil.

One of my children is completely different. This child is truly selfless. Nearly everything he does is based on selfless desires to help others... to do for others. Though he is a very smart person some people see him as being simple minded and naive. This because he just does not go through life with the same filtered glasses and guarded personalities as most others do. Oddly, most people see him as being emotionally immature.

Nice story, thanks for sharing. It's amazing how that works, and how selflessness comes absolutely naturally and how sometimes it has to be learned.

Just sharing my belief but many think that we reincarnate here on earth and that with each "rebirth" we don't lose all the things we've learned before. Souls that have made great progress in past lives (perhaps like your "selfless child") are born as highly evolved beings right off the bat. It's like one big long string that continues until we "break out".

Many believe when Jesus "ascended", he was breaking out of the prison of this dense, human condition. He was rejoining the "One" in the spiritual realm. Funny that this is the exact thing that the Hindus, Buddhists, and many other religions from all around the world describes when one reaches "enlightenment". They're all connected.

Cool stuff, RKM. I have no children yet myself but hope to one day with my wife.

I'm excited for you. Life is great. Having kids is great. I've been happily married for 27years. Though my life has not been perfect by any means, I've been greatly blessed. When you do have kids spend as much time as you can with them. Coach them in sports, take them on vacations, participate in doing things they enjoy. You can't by time back.

Reincarnation.. I don't know. The origin of a soul... I don't know. I can't see it. I can't deny it either.

Once, on the edge of waking up my recently deceased mom eased my pain by telling me all would be ok and that if I ever needed her she would be there when I called for her. Was it real or my brain putting that vision into my head because it felt that's what I needed to hear. Which is more believable, that I could self manifest a starkly real vision of my mom talking to me at the very edge of consciousness, at the end of dream state... or some metaphysical connection to another place. Hmm...

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Progressive ideology which is the idea that men cannot take care of themselves and further, that only government knows best is the root of all evil and is responsible for genocide unprecedented in human history

Sent from smartphone using my wits and Taptalk

If a government was run entirely by unselfish, loving humans, there would be no government sponsored genocide. Why would people who unselfishly love all things want to kill millions of innocent people?

Selfishness is what makes government behave in "evil" ways. It's the lust for power, the lust to control, the lust to help YOUR friends at the expense of others.

Loving, unselfish human beings don't go into government.

Sent from smartphone using my wits and Taptalk

 

[KevinWestern]

Reincarnation.. I don't know. The origin of a soul... I don't know. I can't see it. I can't deny it either.

And neither do I. We all have our beliefs, but as long as we can agree on some of the more important things - like to live a life unselfishly as possible - there's no reason we all can't get along. I respect all of your views as well because likewise I can neither prove nor disprove. But who cares, again if we're all loving of one another with an open mind?

Once, on the edge of waking up my recently deceased mom eased my pain by telling me all would be ok and that if I ever needed her she would be there when I called for her. Was it real or my brain putting that vision into my head because it felt that's what I needed to hear. Which is more believable, that I could self manifest a starkly real vision of my mom talking to me at the very edge of consciousness, at the end of dream state... or some metaphysical connection to another place. Hmm...

Amazing story. Hope that helped you get through that difficult time.

 

[Crystalclear]

You are close to full understanding of my point. Very close.

What you are describing is Eden.

Eden leads to the apple getting pulled from the tree. Why? Because we are human. Once the apple gets pulled the chain of events occur that lead us to where we are now.

If you want a perfect Eden it has to be formed with the understanding of the human condition. The condition being that some people really are evil, and some people are selfish to the point of only wanting Eden for themselves at the expense of others. How does it happen? Good intentions are not in and of themselves the arbiters of results.

My earlier example was purposeful. Parents have to teach some of their children that greed is bad, for those children who may tend to be greedy and/or selfish it is even harder to enter the kingdom of heaven than for those born with a selfless soul out of the gate.

But I think we're starting (maybe, correct me if I'm wrong) to explore territories where you and I think differently with regards to spirituality.

I consider you, me, and everyone around us "not separate" from God in the end. Yes, in our "human condition" the illusion of separateness naturally occurs, and selfishness naturally occurs, however it is our job to transcend the human condition - the ego - and rejoin the whole (which is "God" - if you want to call it that). I believe this dense, material reality is sort of like a prison, and that once you transcend the ego and break the cycle of reincarnation you will return to a spiritual body that is "One" with everything.

Do we differ greatly here in belief? I know that many Christians consider "humans" and "God" separate entities.

I'm already there. I'm a spiritual being with a body. My body is not my prison, nor is this universe. My god is the creator of the universe. The architect if you will, of all that is. I choose my life in this body on this earth as my heaven on earth. I choose, sometimes, to impart to others that which may get them to the same heaven on earth that I enjoy

Never heard of big bang and Evolution?

 

[RKMBrown]

Reincarnation.. I don't know. The origin of a soul... I don't know. I can't see it. I can't deny it either.

And neither do I. We all have our beliefs, but as long as we can agree on some of the more important things - like to live a life unselfishly as possible - there's no reason we all can't get along. I respect all of your views as well because likewise I can neither prove nor disprove. But who cares, again if we're all loving of one another with an open mind?

Once, on the edge of waking up my recently deceased mom eased my pain by telling me all would be ok and that if I ever needed her she would be there when I called for her. Was it real or my brain putting that vision into my head because it felt that's what I needed to hear. Which is more believable, that I could self manifest a starkly real vision of my mom talking to me at the very edge of consciousness, at the end of dream state... or some metaphysical connection to another place. Hmm...

Amazing story. Hope that helped you get through that difficult time.

It did and not just me. My mom was one of those people who could pray for someone and the next day the prayer would be answered, every single time. Every once in a while I'll call for her help... and it does come, every single time.

The stories I could tell you would make the hair on your back stand up. For example, my favorite cousin has a 17year old boy who is now on his second heart transplant. The first heart transplant gave out after 10years and he was on his death bed just a year ago... He played in a soccer game last week. His new heart came from the family of a mother that was in a comma from a car accident... there were complications and initial rejections. It was an absolute miracle that he survived. Truly an angel was looking out for that kid.

 

[KevinWestern]

Loving, unselfish human beings don't go into government.

Sent from smartphone using my wits and Taptalk

I disagree. What is government? It's a mechanism to keep order in a society. Parents are a form of government. Sheriffs are a form of government. Are there no unselfish parents or sheriffs?

I agree that government generally will attract selfish people - we're on the same page there - I don't believe it's impossible for a selfless person to serve in the government truly wanting to help all.

Either way, I believe in a non-oppressive, freedom-granting government. Decentralized, democratic, and efficient.

 

[KevinWestern]

Never heard of big bang and Evolution?

Evolution only explains part of the whole picture. No one knows how life originated, originally. There are only theories.

Evolution is a real thing - no doubt (and I think most Christians would agree). However, like I said it doesn't explain the ORIGIN of life. It had to start somewhere. Why did these cells start moving? Why do they have awareness? Those are questions evolution - alone - can't explain.

And the big bang; couldn't a "God" create the big bang? That's not what I personally believe (I have my own ideas) but I don't see how you could absolutely count that out. Your guess is as good as mine, is as good as RKM's.


.

 

[RKMBrown]

Never heard of big bang and Evolution?

Evolution only explains part of the whole picture. No one knows how life originated, originally. There are only theories.

Evolution is a real thing - no doubt (and I think most Christians would agree). However, like I said it doesn't explain the ORIGIN of life. It had to start somewhere. Why did these cells start moving? Why do they have awareness? Those are questions evolution - alone - can't explain.

And the big bang; couldn't a "God" create the big bang? That's not what I personally believe (I have my own ideas) but I don't see how you could absolutely disprove that.


.

My postulate: The universe is life.

We are so used to qualifying the differences between energy, matter and cells that we have not seen the truth for what may be that fact that all energy in this universe is living energy, all matter formed by said living energy, and all complex molecules formed from same.

Energy whether in the form of atoms or light that we thought could be explained away as simply energy and matter are turning out to have heretofore complexities that may only be explained by an understanding that the universe itself is made up of interconnected building blocks of living energy.

The architect of which... yeah that's god, IMO.

 

[KevinWestern]

My postulate: The universe is life.

Well, I can see that making sense.

 

[HelenaHandbag]

Any human behavior can be detrimental, when taken to an absurd extreme.

Claiming any one as the universal root of evil is just too simplistic for words.

That's completely fine if you believe that, however I am asserting there is just one root - the bi-product of the illusion of separateness (which is selfishness).

Perhaps can you provide an example of "a problem" where selfishness wasn't the root cause?

Maybe that would be an interesting place to start from.


.

With all due respect, hogwash.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Besides, did you ever stop and think about how selfish it is of you to try and rope people into looking at things in such a manner?

 

[KevinWestern]

With all due respect, hogwash.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Besides, did you ever stop and think about how selfish it is of you to try and rope people into your way of looking at things in such a manner?

Did I ever claim to be an unselfish person? I don't think so (but correct me if you think I'm wrong here).

Additionally, all I did was post something that rings true to me; did I force you to come here? To respond?

And regarding my question, it was just a simple challenge because I tried and couldn't think of anything - literally. But of course, you may have a different view. It's a good starting point. If someone can demonstrate that something earthly that we consider to be "evil" isn't rooted in selfishness, then obviously the OP would not be fully correct.




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