The Truth about Mormons

[BigBarry]

So admit it, jesus is dead. He's not somewhere else in the universe, that's fucking ridiculous. And kolob doesn't even exist, so get a grip dude, you're living in a fantasy world.
Plus, jesus never resurrected, no proof buddy.

 

[JakeStarkey]

BigBarry is a Bigtoid Barry. Jeez, I don't hold much for LDS theology, or any Mormon theology, but I don't for most Christian theology (other than my antinomian own), but Barrybutt, why are you so rude about it all? You can argue it without being an idiot.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Barry is a helpless adolescent who was probably dropped as a child or worse. I don't understand his motivation. He is clearly a blight on society.

 

[trueblue]

Barry is a helpless adolescent who was probably dropped as a child or worse. I don't understand his motivation. He is clearly a blight on society.

Not a very Christian comment. Probably true. But not very Christian all the same.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Barry is a helpless adolescent who was probably dropped as a child or worse. I don't understand his motivation. He is clearly a blight on society.

Not a very Christian comment. Probably true. But not very Christian all the same.

Perhaps it is a little presumptuous. The better statement would be that he's just an immature, arrogant and mean spirited person.

Me personally, I'd rather have been dropped.

 

[trueblue]

Barry is a helpless adolescent who was probably dropped as a child or worse. I don't understand his motivation. He is clearly a blight on society.

Not a very Christian comment. Probably true. But not very Christian all the same.

Perhaps it is a little presumptuous. The better statement would be that he's just an immature, arrogant and mean spirited person.

Me personally, I'd rather have been dropped.

Perhaps. I don't know why you still pay attention to him. He's obviously not in it because he is interested in the doctrine or theology. He just wants to upset people and get that reaction. He joys in being obnoxious to others. Maybe he's never learned how to converse or deserve positive attention, so he goes for whatever he can get.

I keep saying 'he', but this is the internet we're talking about. He could be anybody. Maybe he is only fifteen. Maybe he's a very large woman who has given up on love and has become very bitter over time as a result. Maybe he is a sister that likes to get under your skin.

Whatever he is, where is the fight taking anybody?

 

[Truthspeaker]

Not a very Christian comment. Probably true. But not very Christian all the same.

Perhaps it is a little presumptuous. The better statement would be that he's just an immature, arrogant and mean spirited person.

Me personally, I'd rather have been dropped.

Perhaps. I don't know why you still pay attention to him. He's obviously not in it because he is interested in the doctrine or theology. He just wants to upset people and get that reaction. He joys in being obnoxious to others. Maybe he's never learned how to converse or deserve positive attention, so he goes for whatever he can get.

I keep saying 'he', but this is the internet we're talking about. He could be anybody. Maybe he is only fifteen. Maybe he's a very large woman who has given up on love and has become very bitter over time as a result. Maybe he is a sister that likes to get under your skin.

Whatever he is, where is the fight taking anybody?

I don't think I AM fighting. But in the middle of his attacks he launches falsehoods about our church that must be answered by me because I am the OP on this thread. Eventually he'll get tired of it and move on.
I may get a little sarcastic back to him but that's just part of who I am for better or for worse.

 

[Avatar4321]

Perhaps. I don't know why you still pay attention to him. He's obviously not in it because he is interested in the doctrine or theology. He just wants to upset people and get that reaction. He joys in being obnoxious to others. Maybe he's never learned how to converse or deserve positive attention, so he goes for whatever he can get.

I keep saying 'he', but this is the internet we're talking about. He could be anybody. Maybe he is only fifteen. Maybe he's a very large woman who has given up on love and has become very bitter over time as a result. Maybe he is a sister that likes to get under your skin.

Whatever he is, where is the fight taking anybody?

Exactly why i ceased posting in the thread. there hasnt been anything of substance to respond to in quite a while.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Well thanks for enlightening me on the Church stance on the Trinity. Since I know that is false teachings I do not see how I can stay in or be a part of a Church that openly supports false teachings.

 

[Avatar4321]

Don't recall if I've asked this in a past post, but why is it that a "Cross" is not found at the top of a LDS church building where the Mormons worship?

Isn't it the angel, "Moroni" who's likeness is a-top the LDS worship/church buildings?

Question: Is Moroni more important to the Mormon church than the crucifixion, ressurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ?

For Christians around the world, the "cross" represents or symbolizes the means and instrument that stood upon Golgotha's hill and through-which Jesus atoned for mankind's sins once and for all.

So some folks may think that wearing a little cross on a neck chain or having it a-top a churchs' steeple seems sadistic, yet they miss the point that the "cross" is not being worshiped, but is a symbol of the total work of sins atonement by Christ for mankind.

Trully the "cross" was a horrible instrument used during a certain period of Roman capital punishment. Yet, the symbol reminds Christians of what Christ did on their be-half.

You act as though Christianity is some monolithic group. That couldnt be further from the truth. The Truth is not all Christians focus on crosses and crucifixes as symbols. In fact, the cross was a rather late symbol, the earlier symbol for Christians was the fish.

Also, Moroni isnt placed on Church buildings. I dont know of a single chapel with the Angel on top of it. He is placed on the Temples. And if you have read anything of revelation you would understand the symbolism invoked there.

As for our focus on what Christ did, that symbol is the Temple itself. Because our Temples are a testimony to all the world of the literal Atonement and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. If there was no resurrection or atonement there could be no Temple work. The dead could not be redeemed. Death would be the end of it. But the Temples of the Lord provide the ordinances necessary to Redeem the living and the dead, ordinances which would be unnecessary without the resurrection from the dead. Ordinances to purify, which would be impossible without the Atonement of Christ for our sins.

You see its the Temple where the full context and teachings of the resurrection and Atonement can be taught. Temple worship would be useless without Christ and what He did for us. It's the ultimate testament to Jesus Christ. And there is no place on earth we can come closer to becoming like Christ than in His Holy Temple.

The main difference I see between our symbols is that yours serves as a reminder of the Redemption and Resurrection of Christ. Ours serves to help men and women throughout all generations of time recieve those gives of Eternal lives.

 

[Avatar4321]

Well thanks for enlightening me on the Church stance on the Trinity. Since I know that is false teachings I do not see how I can stay in or be a part of a Church that openly supports false teachings.

I truely think the complete confusion in the world concerning the Godhead has much to do with a complete lack of understanding of the Doctrine of Divine Investiture of Authority. Course few people are even aware of its existance. I know I dont completely understand it myself.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Well thanks for enlightening me on the Church stance on the Trinity. Since I know that is false teachings I do not see how I can stay in or be a part of a Church that openly supports false teachings.

I truely think the complete confusion in the world concerning the Godhead has much to do with a complete lack of understanding of the Doctrine of Divine Investiture of Authority. Course few people are even aware of its existance. I know I dont completely understand it myself.

It is real simple. Jesus Christ is NOT God Almighty. Nor is the Holy Spirit God Almighty. They are 3 separate entities. And the Bible is clear on this point.

One is not to interpret the word of God, but rather to read it and accept it. Find any passage that has God claiming he is Jesus Christ. Find any passage that has God claiming he is the Holy Spirit. I can and have provided, in other threads passages where Jesus STATES to the people and his disciples he is NOT GOD. I can provide passages that clearly state that the Holy Spirit is a force that God USES.

Is Jesus a God in his own right? Well the Bible does not say that, but he will be supreme over us all as a KING.

Now explain why God would so befuddle the message that he is the ONLY God we should worship while claiming to be Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Further explain why God would tell us to only worship him but then make Jesus a God also.

 

[BigBarry]

So admit it, jesus is dead. He's not somewhere else in the universe, that's fucking ridiculous. And kolob doesn't even exist, so get a grip dude, you're living in a fantasy world.
Plus, jesus never resurrected, no proof buddy.

Guys, or is it girls?, what is so not cool with this post? T didn't even answer it cuz he's got nuthin', I understand.

Exactly why i ceased posting in the thread. there hasnt been anything of substance to respond to in quite a while. Avatar, you got nuthin either. I've been asking all kinds of questions about mormons in this thread, you don't answer cuz you don't know, you wait for T to answer for you. I was trying to figure out why you and T believe in mormon stuff out of curiosity, turns out, you folks just enjoy believing in santa claus for no other reason that because it's fun. There's no bigger truth in LDS, it's just wilder stories with absolutely no proof whatsoever. Kinda like being a trekkie just for fun.
Now go buy some new "special garments', I think the ones you have on now have shrunk over the years and are squeezing your brains a little too much.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Well thanks for enlightening me on the Church stance on the Trinity. Since I know that is false teachings I do not see how I can stay in or be a part of a Church that openly supports false teachings.

I hope I haven't given you the impression that we share a Catholic perception. I'll be as clear and plain as possible on the subject. Catholics believe Jesus was praying to himself in the garden of gethsemane. They say God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are three different names for the same guy. They say he is incomprehensible so that's why it's confusing. We aren't SUPPOSED to be able to "get it" or understand it. That is the Catholic viewpoint.
That is not the LDS view.

It is real simple. Jesus Christ is NOT God Almighty. Nor is the Holy Spirit God Almighty. They are 3 separate entities. And the Bible is clear on this point.

You are right. It is real simple. God is a term we use somewhat loosely when talking about either Jesus or His father Elohim. Elohim is the father of Jesus. God is a name they both use. Just like senior and junior.

However since Jesus told us in the Bible that "I shall receive all that my father hath", that means he has received all that his father has. That includes his title. Jesus was a God even before he was born though. His pre-earth name was Jehovah. He was the creator of the earth under the direction of the great supervisor Elohim.

The Holy Ghost is used to describe an actual person who is the Holy Ghost. His other name has not been given to us. His purpose is to remain a spirit during the existence of this earth in order to touch the hearts of people in regards to true teachings. There is a force-like substance which binds us all together and allows the Holy Ghost to communicate to our hearts but that force is not the personage of spirit which is The Holy Ghost.

So there is a brief explanation with some detail on the subject. Our teaching is indeed that there are 3 distinct individuals in the Godhead.

Elohim(The father of all spirits, including Jesus spirit. The architect of all and the person we pray to. Had a body before Jesus and all the rest of us.)

Jesus (Jehovah before he was born in the flesh and received a body for the first time. The one responsible for our redemption because of His atonement. Also called The eternal Father because he is "the father of heaven and earth". Often a reason for confusion to those who don't understand his pre-earth role. He reported his work to Elohim and prayed to Elohim. He is now equal with Elohim and eligible to be called God.)

The Holy Ghost (Has not yet received a physical body. Eventually will when his task is done so that he may enjoy eternity to the fullest. When this will be we do not know for sure but it is unimportant for us to know. His task has been described. He is a God as well. This is the reason why we can say God told me the truth of the matter in my heart. Because God, the Holy Ghost spoke to our hearts feelings.)

I hope I have made this clear. Please do not be hung up on the word God so much.

One is not to interpret the word of God, but rather to read it and accept it. Find any passage that has God claiming he is Jesus Christ. Find any passage that has God claiming he is the Holy Spirit. I can and have provided, in other threads passages where Jesus STATES to the people and his disciples he is NOT GOD. I can provide passages that clearly state that the Holy Spirit is a force that God USES.

I agree with you. The main problem with the Bible on this is that the meaning of the three different people has been lost in translation. The Jews knew the distinction but the translators and the rest of the world had not been educated on the matter until Joseph Smith saw the two of them standing together. A picture is worth a thousand words.

Is Jesus a God in his own right? Well the Bible does not say that, but he will be supreme over us all as a KING.

Firstly, when Jesus was speaking to the pharisees about Abraham in detail, they scorned Jesus saying"Thou art not yet 50 years old, yet thou hast seen Abraham?!" They mockingly said.

Jesus reply:"Before Abraham was, I AM

Then the Jews took up stones to kill him and Jesus left them. The only reason they tried to kill him, is because they FULLY UNDERSTOOD the claim he was making. They did not hesitate to try to kill him for the blasphemy of claiming he was the great I AM. The same name Jehovah called himself to Moses: I AM. Any biblical scholar understands the language used here.
Also, what makes someone a God? Knowing everything, having all power, and being immortal. Jesus fits all of those descriptions therefore his is a God.

Now explain why God would so befuddle the message that he is the ONLY God we should worship while claiming to be Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Further explain why God would tell us to only worship him but then make Jesus a God also.

That is a catholic claim, not a Mormon one.

 

[Eightball]

John 1

The Deity of Jesus Christ

1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2. He was in the beginning with God.

3. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Paul wrote a very clear substantiation of Christ as God in Collosians Chapter 1

Paul wrote a very clear substantiation of Christ as God in Collosians Chapter 1

15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

16 .For by Him(Jesus) all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities all things have been created through Him and for Him.

17. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

18. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

19 .For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,

20. and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Now if one goes to Genesis we see that God was the Creator of all things, yet Collosians suncinctly reveals that all of creation came or was created by/through Christ Jesus.

*******
How much more succinct/clear/definitive must John the Apostle be in defining Christ as God.

As for understanding the trinitarian aspect of God, it is very simple yet very mysterious. God is expressed in three distinct personalities, all three of the masculine tense, all three in agreement with each other.

So the old argument or rebuttal that Jesus prayed to Himself is so off the board or radar. He indeed prayed to God the Father who is who He is of the trinitarian Godhead.

Secondly, the trinitarian doctrine or definition of the Judeau/Christian God is not Catholic in origin, but dates back to the early church that was hundreds of years before the Catholic churchs' formation/beginning.

All of the books and letters that comprise the N.T. were circulating among the early church between 40 A.D. and 100 A.D., and that includes the above "John" book.

The problem that arises is that natural man, tries with his finite/natural intellect to define infinite God according to his/hers parameters of understanding in the area of the "makeup" of God.

Since the God of the bible ascends beyond the "creative" or touch/sight/smell then he is then defined by finite man definitively yet incorrectly.

The word "trinity" is not in the bible, but the word was used in Christian circles of theology as a way of summing-up the distinct yet untouchable, and uncreated yet accurate aspects of the Judeau/Christian God as revealed both in the O.T. and N.T..

We humans ask, "How can God be revealed in three distinct forms/personalities, yet be one?". No valid theologian to date can explain that, yet it is not a "tripping point" for the true Christian. As God says that My ways are not your way, we cannot fathom the mind of God in totality, but are allowed glimpses-enough to marvel at His being.

Again, manmade religions try to bring God down to human/created definitions of make-up, as they cannot, and will not know that which is infinite, when they are but finite.

God is Spiritually ascertained, yet even though the Holy Spirit indwells all true Christians as the Counselor/Helper/Comforter, who guides and opens up God's scripture to believers we are still finite. Our minds are of this world, yet we have been given God's never-ending and never-beginning life through the H.S.'s indwelling when we believed or received Christ Jesus His Son as our the propitiation of our sinful, Adamic natures/lives. In return we received the life of Christ/H.S. to seal us, to speak to our most inner soul and guide us in this world until we die and then see Him face to face.

Paul said that God is Spirit, yet He/God expressed Himself in the flesh, fully 100% human in everyway, yet 100% God in everyway.
Why?: Only God has the full capability to remove judgement upon the human race, yet, the sacrifice in our "stead" had to be of our "likeness", and Christ was fully Man to carry this out. Fully Man, and fully God, was the only suitable/capable offering before God Almighty.

There are so many, many clear verses in the bible defining Jesus as God Almighty.....Jesus Himself had the crowd pick up rocks to stone Him to death. He asked them why. They said to Him that He was claiming to be God or equal to God. His antagonists with there own mouths propheside Jesus' true identity.

When Thomas touched the nail scarred hands, and the spear scar on Jesus' abdomen, he fell down before Jesus, and proclaimed Him, "My Lord and My God!!!".

Paul enumerates over and over in so many of his epistles that Jesus is God.

Jesus Himself said, "Before Abraham I AM". The greek break down of that "I AM", is Jehovah/God Almighty/the Alpha and Omega.......or Beginning and End.
********

 

[JakeStarkey]

LDS teaching has never presented a unified, seamless theology. It certainly does not today. However, much is offered in the LDS church to the average joe and jane, who wish to stay there even if they find it all confusing. For those folks, they may want to check out staylds.com. This is a discussion site for LDS who find certain matters irritating, stupid, or outright wrong, but still wish to remain active, temple-going LDS. It's worth a look.

 

[Truthspeaker]

LDS teaching has never presented a unified, seamless theology. It certainly does not today. However, much is offered in the LDS church to the average joe and jane, who wish to stay there even if they find it all confusing. For those folks, they may want to check out staylds.com. This is a discussion site for LDS who find certain matters irritating, stupid, or outright wrong, but still wish to remain active, temple-going LDS. It's worth a look.

Actually it has presented a unified seamless theology. It's seamless to people like me but others disagree. I haven't found any seams though others think they have. I don't know why you think we don't have a uniform doctrine but we really do and always have. Now there have been new things added from time to time by revelation, but the church has always followed the prophet who reveals the will of Christ. I may check out your website. Perhaps I will get more legitimate questions there than I will here.

 

[trueblue]

LDS teaching has never presented a unified, seamless theology. It certainly does not today. However, much is offered in the LDS church to the average joe and jane, who wish to stay there even if they find it all confusing. For those folks, they may want to check out staylds.com. This is a discussion site for LDS who find certain matters irritating, stupid, or outright wrong, but still wish to remain active, temple-going LDS. It's worth a look.

Examples? I've never heard that accusation about the LDS faith.

 

[BigBarry]

The only thing seamless is their magic shorts.

Hey T, do you change your holy undergarments every day?

 

[Truthspeaker]

The only thing seamless is their magic shorts.

Hey T, do you change your holy undergarments every day?

Do you change your underwear every day?