The Truth about Mormons

[Truthspeaker]

This is what they claimed to have found.

So you don't believe them either?
Where's the body and the arrow?

He didn't know his name until he prayed to God for a revelation on the subject.

In other words, he just made it up.

I make it plain and simple. Joseph never made a thing up in his whole life. He was an honest man. I believe the bones are kept somewhere but I'd have to do some research on the subject. It doesn't matter.

I see that you are either new to this thread or are a reincarnation of Big Barry the heckler.
Is there anything of substance that you would like to contribute? Perhaps an unloaded question or poignant factual statement?

The point of this thread is not to prove my faith to others, but to state what my faith actually teaches or is. People decide for themselves when presented with the straight dope.

 

[Truthspeaker]

It has been brought to my attention one of the oldest criticisms of the Book of Mormon. I'm glad it has been brought up. Because it allows me to brush up.

The existence of steel in 600bc and the use of metallurgy in the new world. Orthodox archaeologists ignore unpopular specimens of steel or metal of any kind prior to 900AD. But you must understand that the scientific world has it's hierarchy, resulting in many dogmas and unfair dismissals of challenges to the contrary.

This is a fantastic article about how little science really knows and how much there is to still be discovered. I mean think about it really. If science stopped the world and made an announcement that steel was first discovered in 13AD, does that REALLY mean there was no steel before 13AD? or is it just that we haven't found any? Who has authority to say that it wasn't known to other civilizations in other parts of the world. Curiously the Bible mentions steel in the days of Jeremiah. Curiously the same time period as Lehi. Also mentioning that the sword of Laban "was of the most precious steel", indicating that it was not a common item, and of great value as gold or silver. Laban was a prominent man and know to be rich so when it was taken from his treasury it makes sense that it was not as common as steel is today and was in fact rare.
Rare does not mean non existant.
Also steel and iron from those time periods will most of the time disintigrate due to corrosion, only careful protection of steel and iron will preserve them for archaeological finding today.

Please read this article carefully. You will see that we have much to learn about the origins of metallurgy. Metals, Weapons, and the Book of Mormon (Mormon Answers/LDSFAQ)


Also at the end of the day, who is to say that God cannot reveal metallurgy to his people at different times and in different places?

 

[Truthspeaker]

I know a couple of mormons (my parents, lol) and they believe in all the weird shit, if it works for you fine. But you seem a little unsure of yourself and mormonism, you should study some more, maybe I can help you?

How quaint of you. Did you just jump in here and come to the conclusion that I the OP of this thread am unsure of my religion?

Since the first post I have answered a legitimate onslaught of questions and attacks and have continued to affirm my position and testimony regarding the truth of my church.

.....oh wait... I just got it silly me... you were being sarcastic

 

[Truthspeaker]

But you seem a little unsure of yourself and mormonism, you should study some more, maybe I can help you?

And just what pertinent information do you have that I have neglected in this lengthy discussion? If you can help, please do.

 

[Truthspeaker]

But you seem a little unsure of yourself and mormonism, you should study some more, maybe I can help you?

And just what pertinent information do you have that I have neglected in this lengthy discussion? If you can help, please do.

Pretty much every thing you write is bogus. You new to the church?

How so? and Yes?

 

[Eightball]

An old friend of my long departed Dad, did a lot of research on the Missouri mounds. There was not connection between J.S. Jr's phrophesies, and what was found at those archeological sights.

Sorry, but no metalurgy found...........Lots of clay pots, and shards though. Carbon dating is very clear too.

Yes, agent man was able to come up with some interesting metalurgy before it was discovered or developed. There is evidence that Iron Meteorites were used to pound out some weaponry and other pieces well before man new how to forge iron or steel.

These Iron/steel meteorites didn't seem to stimulate or correlate with the beginning of Iron smelting.

The myriads of Indian burial mounds found all over the Midwest was a "no-brainer" and wasn't something that J.S. Jr. prophesied before their being found. There was much pillaging of the contents of mounds before J.S. Jr. tried to connect them to Laminites or ancient visitors that preceded Columbus and Leif Erikson.

American Indian burial mounds, like this one in Central Missouri, are difficult to identify because there is no state database of their locations. In the past, many burial mounds have been located only after they have been damaged by construction. Despite the photograph, the location of this mound is unknown. ¦ Courtesy of Missouri State Historical Society
Ancient history - Columbia Missourian

On one of many pinnacles along the bluffs lining the Missouri River southwest of Columbia, atop the steep face of jagged rock plunging to the landing, there is an inconspicuous 10-foot lump of earth.

What appears to be a natural point in the landscape — insignificant in the swath of hills and valleys — is a burial mound, formed by human hands thousands of years ago.

In another state

Related Media

Early Mississippi/Middle Mississippi

A Gulf Coast shell gorget — an ornament usually worn over the chest — created during the Woodland Period is featured at the Museum of Anthropology in MU’s Swallow Hall.

A collection of pottery samples from the Woodland Period are displayed at MU’s Swallow Hall. Civilizations in central valleys and Missouri and Mississippi rivers started making pottery and building burial mounds around 600 B.C. Shown here are Naples Dentate stamped pot shards and Renner crosshatched pot shards.

Late Woodland continued

Archaeologists survey a site at Rogers Shelter in southern Missouri during a salvage work inspection trip in 1964. From left are Carl Chapman, Wilfred Logan, Henry W. Hamilton and Zorro Bradley. In 1986, Chapman established an 11,000-year timeline for a civilization that lived in the Rogers Shelter area. The discovery is one of the longest cultural sequences found in Missouri.

Late Woodland

Les Bourgeois Winery in Rocheport is an example of both an obtrusive and nonobtrusive blufftop development, says Jeff Barrow of Columbia’s Planning and Zoning Commission. Although the restaurant, top right, sticks out, the winery’s A-frame, top left, blends into the natural settings, Barrow says.

Middle Woodland

A collection of bone awls — tools for scraping and making holes — and bone fish hooks created during the Woodland Period are displayed at an exhibit at MU’s Swallow Hall.

Early Woodland timeline

Current periods

An excavation at a site in St. Joseph was conducted under the direction of Carl Chapman in 1966. Chapman, the first person to graduate from MU with experience in American archaeology, is credited with providing much of the knowledge of Missouri’s historical and archaeological record.

Riverfront connection

Mississippi Period/Migration

A Snyder’s corner-notched point created during the Woodland Period is featured in an exhibit in Swallow Hall.

Woodland era burial mound

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American Indian burial mounds abound in mid-Missouri, especially along the blufftops of the river. Many date back 2,000 years or more to what is called the Woodland Period, from about 500 B.C. to about A.D. 900.

With developer Jose Lindner’s purchase of the former W.B. Smith Feed Mill and Hatchery property — 1,024 acres between the city and the river — government officials say city annexation is inevitable. And others say if planning doesn’t precede development, the future of the burial mounds along the blufftops is uncertain at best.

Few protections exist for the prehistoric sites. The federal legislation meant to protect them only applies to development projects that are on federal land or use federal money. State protection only applies to “known” prehistoric sites.

But without an official database, many sites only become known when construction runs into them, at which point archaeologists say the damage is generally already extensive.


Layers of history

While some city and county officials seek ways to protect the burial mounds, development creeps steadily southwest toward the water.

Boone County is home to more recorded burial mounds and other archaeological sites than any other Missouri county, with 1,300 known sites as of Aug. 31.

There are 37,000 known sites in the state, but that’s probably a small fraction of the total, said Judith Deel, an officer with the State Historic Preservation Office.

Burial mounds were typically built on blufftops overlooking rivers or streams. In some cases, mound builders saved the bones of their tribe’s dead for years until they camped in one area long enough to build a mound. As a result, some mounds contain bones and cremations from different years.

Many of these mounds have been excavated in the past, and the information gleaned from their contents has given archaeologists a picture of Missouri that dates back at least 12,000 years to the Woodland Period and earlier.

Some recent discoveries were accidental. In 1989, during a construction project along Forum Boulevard, a mound was hit. Because it was already damaged and partly exposed, archaeologists decided to excavate its contents. They found the remains of 11 people from the Late Woodland Period, about A.D. 700 to A.D. 900.

They also found a female who was about 20 years old when she died, sealed in a limestone tomb and buried in the mound. Carbon dating showed she had lived in the Early Woodland Period, between 850 B.C. and 450 B.C.

Much of what is known about the historical and archaeological record of Missouri is owed to Carl Chapman, the first person to graduate from MU with experience in American archaeology. Chapman dedicated his life to discovering Missouri’s history and prehistory.

In 1986, Chapman was researching the Rogers Shelter area in the Osage River Basin when he established what he estimated to be an 11,000-year timeline — from about 10,000 B.C. to about A.D. 1,000 — for one civilization in Missouri. The discovery is one of the longest cultural sequences found in the state.

He also uncovered a mastodon tusk near Miami, Mo., in the 1970s. Even more significant was the “flake knife” found next to it, suggesting people may have lived in Missouri at the same time as the mastodon — about 18,000 years ago.

 

[Skeptik]

If Zelph's remains are in a museum somewhere, as seems likely given the claims made, have they been carbon dated to see whether they are from the period in question? If they are, then there is some credibility to the story. If they are from a couple of hundred years ago or so, then they're about as credible as Calaveras Man.

 

[Truthspeaker]

If Zelph's remains are in a museum somewhere, as seems likely given the claims made, have they been carbon dated to see whether they are from the period in question? If they are, then there is some credibility to the story. If they are from a couple of hundred years ago or so, then they're about as credible as Calaveras Man.

I'm still researching what happened to the bones and the stone arrow discovered. I'm sure the carbon dating is not as important as one might think, because we already know there were people in Missouri in that time period. The kentucky mummies(mummified in the egyptian style) were dated to the book of mormon times. The key is the identification of the man as Zelph. That would prove undoubtedly that his name was revealed to Joseph by God. A true miracle. Joseph also mentioned the exact manner of his death which was peculiar. To just come up with that type of an explanation unrehearsed on the spot is remarkable.

What's more interesting to me would be a recreation of the face which they can do these days with our technology. That's why I'd like to see the bones.

If the bones are not found it's not a big deal to me because back then they had no concept of the need to preserve the bones for carbon dating. Also they were on a hasty journey to Missouri and they probably didn't have much time or care to preserve the bones since they were hurrying to Missouri from Kirtland Ohio. Had they known the scrutiny modern scientists could put such ancient discoveries under, undoubtedly they would have taken extreme measures to preserve the discovery and excavate the rest of the site.

 

[Truthspeaker]

They key is the identification of the man as Zelph. That would prove undoubtedly that his name was revealed to Joseph by God. A true miracle. Joseph also mentioned the exact manner of his death which was peculiar. To just come up with that type of an explanation unrehearsed on the spot is remarkable.

How are you going to prove what the dude's name was?
Joseph mentioned the manner of his death... after he saw the arrow?

No he concluded the more peculiar detail that he was slowed as a result of his thigh being broken because of a stone from a sling, then the arrow killed him. Read the article before you spout off.

 

[Truthspeaker]

So where is this Zilch dude?
How you going to prove his name was Zelph anyways?
So he broke his leg, then got shot with an arrow? Hate to tell you but you don't die from a broken leg.

You can definitely die from a broken leg if no one helps you and you don't get medical attention. Infection can set in and blood poisoning can subsequently kill you among other bacteria from the hemorraging.

But it was stated that the arrow killed him. He said the break actually came in an earlier battle in his younger years and he was slowed by the effects of it as he got older. He was also missing teeth which indicated he was an older man at the time of his death.

 

[Jesus Christ]

You're hearing this from the horse's mouth: mormonism is a badly bastardized version of my teachings with no relevance or credibility.

 

[Truthspeaker]

You're hearing this from the horse's mouth: mormonism is a badly bastardized version of my teachings with no relevance or credibility.

In the last days(which we are in) there shall come false prophets and false christs(you qualify). It was recorded here in USMessageboard that Jesus is come back!

So tell me. If you are really Jesus Christ please explain where you were during the three days after your crucifixion? What have you been doing since you've been gone for so long?
What's it like to have an immortal body? How can we all go back and join you in heaven? Which church is best for me to join?

 

[Truthspeaker]

Imagine, banning Jesus!

Is that what happened? Is he banned from US Messageboard? That's hilarious.

 

[Truthspeaker]

I guess I have answered everyone's questions. I am very happy now. Unless I am wrong?

 

[Eightball]

Yes:

You have "responded" to all questions/statements in response to your topic, but I wouldn't call that a victory for Mormonism.

The question is: Have you responded with "sufficient" or "correct" answers to all the questions that have been raised about your belief system.

IMO: No.

First of all, you call yourselves Christians, but you deny so many of the tenets of the N.T., concerning the nature of Christ.

Secondly, your belief system only accepts bible passages that agree with your latter day prophet/president's alleged prophesys from your Mormon god.

That is not only inductive based reasoning, it is "cherry picking" the bible's verses to support your faith system.
******
Paul warned that there would be in the future those that would say, "Here's the Christ"......or "I've found the Christ", and he strongly cautioned the early Christian church to "beware", as there would be folks who would claim to have the truth, what in reality were "ravenous wolves" in "sheeps" clothing. I.E. They would present themselves as syrupy sweet, down-home, with "I don't swear", "I live a clean life" outward presentation, yet inwardly were bringing a twisted, anti-biblical message.
*****
Omnipotence of God?: What does that mean to you Truthspeaker? Does that mean that God is strong enough to keeps some things in "check" and according to His will, and other things He cannot?

Now if the bible was originally inspired by God, but your church teaches that it is only right in-so-far as it supports your latter day prophesies, and then it is basically corrupted by man; could you explain what an "omnipotent" God is in the LDS realm or definition?

Omnipotent I believe, means in in certain words, "Almighty, All Powerful". That means that nothing escapes God's sovereignty, and I would assume that the early scriptures would be included too.

God raises up nations and leaders, and brings them down just as easily. The bible says in both John and Colossians that all things were created in and through Jesus Christ. Here we have total omnipotence.

Now if you subscribe to a belief that God made it and then sat back and let it go awry, you are welcome to believe that. There is one big "but" that comes with that. How does this jive with God's nature? The last definition would define God as a "cosmic killjoy" who isn't unlike the Greek/Roman Gods who manipulated mankind like they were marrionette dolls.

In order for the LDS/Mormon belief system to be acceptable, we or all of us must accept that God, even-though "omnipotent" somehow let His holy scriptures to mankind become partially or totally corrupted by "uninspired" mankind.

Why?: Why would the God/Jehovah/El Shaddai/Lord God Almighty let this most important message from Him to mankind fall into this state?

You can't give an adequate answer unless you "deny" God's "omnipotence" which is clearly displayed/explained//defined in the bible.

Really, all the various teachings/doctrines in the BOM, Journal of Discourses/Pearl of Great Price.....etc, etc... really don't need to muddle this up anymore. Bottom line: The bible is not sufficient for the Mormon/LDS system of faith. It is considered incomplete, or corrupted.

So where do we stand? You say you have the truth, and us bible based folks, believe we have the truth.

I think that the big dividing line isn't visitations from angels, or latter day messages but defining who God is. Is He omnipotent from the very beginning, or is He not?

 

[N4mddissent]

I guess I have answered everyone's questions. I am very happy now. Unless I am wrong?

One question: Do you accept the Theory of Evolution?

 

[California Girl]

I like Mormons. They're decent people generally.

Not so long ago, I was accosted by a drunk guy on a train in the UK. Crowds of people completely ignored the situation.... the only two who stepped forward to help this 'damsel in distress' were two Mormon Missionaries. Not only did they insert themselves quietly and firmly between me and the drunk guy but they stayed one either side until my stop.

 

[Skeptik]

I guess I have answered everyone's questions. I am very happy now. Unless I am wrong?

One question: Do you accept the Theory of Evolution?

Mormons have no problems with the theory of evolution. The theology says that the Earth was created in seven "periods of time", not in "seven days", so they don't have to do mental gymnastics to try to deny evolution and claim that the Earth is only a few thousand years old, as some of the fundamentalists try to do.

 

[Truthspeaker]

I guess I have answered everyone's questions. I am very happy now. Unless I am wrong?

One question: Do you accept the Theory of Evolution?

Great question. I personally do not believe Man evolved from lesser species. but I do believe animals can evolve. The church does not believe man evolved from any lower species either.

My problem with the theory of evolution is this:
If we evolved from apes, why aren't there still hybrid type species evolving now? Why are chimps gaining intelligence past what they've shown?

Most scientists all agree that we came from a common ancestor. But they are all baffled by the sudden growth spike of intelligence about 6-10 thousand years ago. They all scratch their heads because they believe evolution of that kind would need another 500 million years or so. The rapidity of this growth to me is a strong evidence for the PLACING of man on this earth, rather than his evolvement from previous species.

That being said, if the theory of evolution WERE to be proven, it would only clarify to me in detail how God formed man. My mind is already made up on the subject, but I'm always open to new evidence.

 

[Truthspeaker]

How about Santa Claus?

Everyone who knows anything about history knows that Ol Saint Nick was a real guy. He's just not around anymore.