The Truth about Mormons

[Truthspeaker]

i like mormons. They're decent people generally.

Not so long ago, i was accosted by a drunk guy on a train in the uk. Crowds of people completely ignored the situation.... The only two who stepped forward to help this 'damsel in distress' were two mormon missionaries. Not only did they insert themselves quietly and firmly between me and the drunk guy but they stayed one either side until my stop.

wwjd?

 

[Avatar4321]

Since it's been a while since I responded in particular on this thread, i figured i would right now.

Yes:

You have "responded" to all questions/statements in response to your topic, but I wouldn't call that a victory for Mormonism.

The question is: Have you responded with "sufficient" or "correct" answers to all the questions that have been raised about your belief system.

IMO: No.

And how do you determine our answers are insufficient or incorrect? And how do you conclude yours are?

First of all, you call yourselves Christians, but you deny so many of the tenets of the N.T., concerning the nature of Christ.

Because we are Christians. We are disciples of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and have been called of Him to preach His Gospel to His people. There isnt a single aspect of the New Testament that we reject. We believe in the Atonement and literal resurrection of Jesus Christ. And it is through Him, by Him, and of Him, we are saved.

Secondly, your belief system only accepts bible passages that agree with your latter day prophet/president's alleged prophesys from your Mormon god.

That is not only inductive based reasoning, it is "cherry picking" the bible's verses to support your faith system.

Incorrect, of course. I have no doubt that we may disagree with your interpretation of some passages. But we do not cherry pick. However, i have yet to see you acknowledge the clear Biblical passages teaching the Doctrine of Diefication which you still deny.

Paul warned that there would be in the future those that would say, "Here's the Christ"......or "I've found the Christ", and he strongly cautioned the early Christian church to "beware", as there would be folks who would claim to have the truth, what in reality were "ravenous wolves" in "sheeps" clothing. I.E. They would present themselves as syrupy sweet, down-home, with "I don't swear", "I live a clean life" outward presentation, yet inwardly were bringing a twisted, anti-biblical message.

I completely agree. Paul did warn of those that would come perverting the messages. Christ did as well.

Of course, that doesnt mean that you are correct and we are wrong. Obviously, we could argue who is right and wrong all day. The real answer can only be answered by the Holy Spirit. Which is why ask no one to take our word on anything. Study for yourself and go to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ and He will show you by the power of the Holy Spirit that it's true.

That's also why we present to men the Book of Mormon and tell them to read it for themselves and ask God to know whether it's true. It's given with a promise that all may know if they will humble themselves before God. That is the only reason I know. I asked the Lord. And the Spirit revealed to me the truth. And I can add my own testimony to the other witnesses that I know the Book of Mormon is true. And I cannot deny it or I would be lying before God, the angels of the heavens, and even to myself, if I did.

And the beautiful part of God's Plan of Happiness is that anyone can ask and recieve. Anyone can seek and find. Anyone who lacks wisdom can ask of God and gain it. The Holy Spirit can reveal with power the truth of God to anyone who seeks it

Omnipotence of God?: What does that mean to you Truthspeaker? Does that mean that God is strong enough to keeps some things in "check" and according to His will, and other things He cannot?

It means that He has the power to do anything that can possibly be done. That doesn't necessarily mean He does everything that can possibly be done.

Now if the bible was originally inspired by God, but your church teaches that it is only right in-so-far as it supports your latter day prophesies, and then it is basically corrupted by man; could you explain what an "omnipotent" God is in the LDS realm or definition?

Omnipotent I believe, means in in certain words, "Almighty, All Powerful". That means that nothing escapes God's sovereignty, and I would assume that the early scriptures would be included too.

God raises up nations and leaders, and brings them down just as easily. The bible says in both John and Colossians that all things were created in and through Jesus Christ. Here we have total omnipotence.

Now if you subscribe to a belief that God made it and then sat back and let it go awry, you are welcome to believe that. There is one big "but" that comes with that. How does this jive with God's nature? The last definition would define God as a "cosmic killjoy" who isn't unlike the Greek/Roman Gods who manipulated mankind like they were marrionette dolls.

And here is your problem. You assume that the Bible is the only collection of books God has ever inspired. This makes absolutely no sense. God is the Sovereign over the entire earth. As you said, He raises up nations and leads and brings them down just as quickly. It's just as easy for Him to command one nation to write as He has commanded other nations to write.

And because you have the Bible, you think you have everything God has caused to be written? The Bible doesnt suggest that. In fact, the Gospel of John is clear that the works and words of Christ could not be contained in all the Books of the world. Paul spoke clearly that he was writing the Saints about the milk of the Gospel and not the meat. We have clear holes in the ministry of Christ. What happened during the 40 days Christ taught the Apostles after His resurrection? What is the paradise Christ mentioned that He and the thief met at the day He died when He did not ascend into heaven until after He rose from the dead? What did Christ teach the people in all the sermons that weren't recorded? What about the miracles that never made the Gospels? What about the other books of scripture the Bible mentions that are now considered lost?

There is so much about God we dont know, and yet you want to limit it all to the books we have in the Bible. Why? God wants to open the floodgates of Heaven. He wants to show all His children everything He has in store for them. Why place posts up and say "I will go no further?" God wanted Moses to prepare the Israelites to enter into His presence. They refused to do so and were punished with 40 years of wandering. They were given the Law of Moses to point them toward Christ.

The Apostles tried to do the same. And the people went into Apostasy so quickly that Paul had to chastize the Galatians for already turning to another Gospel. All of the Epistles in the New Testament demonstrate the Apostles attempts to keep the Church on the Straight and narrow path and the opposition they faced doing so. The people killed them rather than accept their message. And after their death the ordinances were changed and the Everlasting Covenant was broken as Isaiah predicted. They fell away as Paul, John, and Christ prophecied.

In order for the LDS/Mormon belief system to be acceptable, we or all of us must accept that God, even-though "omnipotent" somehow let His holy scriptures to mankind become partially or totally corrupted by "uninspired" mankind.

You think the fact that human beings have touched and transcribed past revelations that somehow dilutes the power of God? We are a fallen people. We have been so since the Fall of Adam and will be until Christ returns. God works with imperfect people. The Bible is not inerrant. It never claims to be. It's a tool to point people to the Father and to Christ who are perfect. They are the ones we should rely on. They are the ones we place our faith in.

You'll notice the pattern from the scriptures, when the people turn away from God, He calls a prophet, He sends and Apostle. He reveals the Truth to them and they preach it to the people. This is the pattern. It has been so since the days of Adam, it will be until Christ comes in Glory. Possibly past then. And as the scriptures indicate the servants of God are never appreciated in their time. It's only after they pass on that their message is accepted as truth. And that's how Satan gets the people to ignore the next one that comes. The Pharisees, the Scribes, the Saducees, all trusted in the scriptures of dead prophets, yet rejected the Son of God when He came. Why do you think today is different?

Why?: Why would the God/Jehovah/El Shaddai/Lord God Almighty let this most important message from Him to mankind fall into this state?

I happen to believe the message of the Bible is very well preserved considering what God had to work with in the late Roman Empire and the Middle ages. The problem is people had lost the authority to speak for God. They lost the gift of the Holy Ghost as a result and people decided they would interpret the Bible themselves rather than turn to God who could teach them all of it. Is it any wonder there are countless versions of the Bible? Is it any wonder that 3 devout Christians can go into a room and intepret the Bible 20 different ways? You think Christ wanted people to simply follow their interpretations of the Bible and form thousands of different denominations? Or do you think Christ taught a unifying doctrine? Is this really what God wants? God, who is a God of order, who established ordinances and families to place us in our order? And who has authority to such? Who can baptize? who can give the Holy Ghost? It's evident from the Book of Acts, that it cant be done by just anyone.

And while I wasnt intending to do this originally, I feel I should. Since Oliver articulates the points much better than I do, I think I should share his words:

“These were days never to be forgotten—to sit under the sound of a voice dictated by the inspiration of heaven, awakened the utmost gratitude of this bosom! Day after day I continued, uninterrupted, to write from his mouth, as he translated with the Urim and Thummim, or, as the Nephites would have said, ‘Interpreters,’ the history or record called ‘The Book of Mormon.’

“To notice, in even few words, the interesting account given by Mormon and his faithful son, Moroni, of a people once beloved and favored of heaven, would supersede my present design; I shall therefore defer this to a future period, and, as I said in the introduction, pass more directly to some few incidents immediately connected with the rise of this Church, which may be entertaining to some thousands who have stepped forward, amid the frowns of bigots and the calumny of hypocrites, and embraced the Gospel of Christ.

“No men, in their sober senses, could translate and write the directions given to the Nephites from the mouth of the Savior, of the precise manner in which men should build up His Church, and especially when corruption had spread an uncertainty over all forms and systems practiced among men, without desiring a privilege of showing the willingness of the heart by being buried in the liquid grave, to answer a ‘good conscience by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.’

“After writing the account given of the Savior’s ministry to the remnant of the seed of Jacob, upon this continent, it was easy to be seen, as the prophet said it would be, that darkness covered the earth and gross darkness the minds of the people. On reflecting further it was as easy to be seen that amid the great strife and noise concerning religion, none had authority from God to administer the ordinances of the Gospel. For the question might be asked, have men authority to administer in the name of Christ, who deny revelations, when His testimony is no less than the spirit of prophecy, and His religion based, built, and sustained by immediate revelations, in all ages of the world when He has had a people on earth? If these facts were buried, and carefully concealed by men whose craft would have been in danger if once permitted to shine in the faces of men, they were no longer to us; and we only waited for the commandment to be given ‘Arise and be baptized.’

“This was not long desired before it was realized. The Lord, who is rich in mercy, and ever willing to answer the consistent prayer of the humble, after we had called upon Him in a fervent manner, aside from the abodes of men, condescended to manifest to us His will. On a sudden, as from the midst of eternity, the voice of the Redeemer spake peace to us, while the veil was parted and the angel of God came down clothed with glory, and delivered the anxiously looked for message, and the keys of the Gospel of repentance. What joy! what wonder! what amazement! While the world was racked and distracted—while millions were groping as the blind for the wall, and while all men were resting upon uncertainty, as a general mass, our eyes beheld, our ears heard, as in the ‘blaze of day’; yes, more—above the glitter of the May sunbeam, which then shed its brilliancy over the face of nature! Then his voice, though mild, pierced to the center, and his words, ‘I am thy fellow-servant,’ dispelled every fear. We listened, we gazed, we admired! ’Twas the voice of an angel from glory, ’twas a message from the Most High! And as we heard we rejoiced, while His love enkindled upon our souls, and we were wrapped in the vision of the Almighty! Where was room for doubt? Nowhere; uncertainty had fled, doubt had sunk no more to rise, while fiction and deception had fled forever!

“But, dear brother, think, further think for a moment, what joy filled our hearts, and with what surprise we must have bowed, (for who would not have bowed the knee for such a blessing?) when we received under his hand the Holy Priesthood as he said, ‘Upon you my fellow-servants, in the name of Messiah, I confer this Priesthood and this authority, which shall remain upon earth, that the Sons of Levi may yet offer an offering unto the Lord in righteousness!’

“I shall not attempt to paint to you the feelings of this heart, nor the majestic beauty and glory which surrounded us on this occasion; but you will believe me when I say, that earth, nor men, with the eloquence of time, cannot begin to clothe language in as interesting and sublime a manner as this holy personage. No; nor has this earth power to give the joy, to bestow the peace, or comprehend the wisdom which was contained in each sentence as they were delivered by the power of the Holy Spirit! Man may deceive his fellow-men, deception may follow deception, and the children of the wicked one may have power to seduce the foolish and untaught, till naught but fiction feeds the many, and the fruit of falsehood carries in its current the giddy to the grave; but one touch with the finger of his love, yes, one ray of glory from the upper world, or one word from the mouth of the Savior, from the bosom of eternity, strikes it all into insignificance, and blots it forever from the mind. The assurance that we were in the presence of an angel, the certainty that we heard the voice of Jesus, and the truth unsullied as it flowed from a pure personage, dictated by the will of God, is to me past description, and I shall ever look upon this expression of the Savior’s goodness with wonder and thanksgiving while I am permitted to tarry; and in those mansions where perfection dwells and sin never comes, I hope to adore in that day which shall never cease.”—Messenger and Advocate, vol. 1 (October 1834), pp. 14—16.

You can't give an adequate answer unless you "deny" God's "omnipotence" which is clearly displayed/explained//defined in the bible.

You seem to think that because He can do everything, God does do everything. He could make me a multi billionaire in two seconds if He chose to. He has that power. He does not do it. Why? Because He is wiser than I am

God is doing a work in the last days, one that will make the Israelite journey out of slavery look like nothing. And key to that work is the Book of Mormon. Why did He choose this way to do it? I don't know. But I dont think it's wise to ignore God when He reveals more of His word to His people. He does so for a reason. And part of that reason, I believe, is because the Bible has been so much attacked that He wanted a second testimony to the Gospel sent before the world. People may deny the Word of Christ to the Jews. But they have a much harder time deny the Word of Christ to a multitude of nations, all testifying of one Eternal God the Father and one Jesus Christ.

Really, all the various teachings/doctrines in the BOM, Journal of Discourses/Pearl of Great Price.....etc, etc... really don't need to muddle this up anymore. Bottom line: The bible is not sufficient for the Mormon/LDS system of faith. It is considered incomplete, or corrupted.

First, the Journal of Discourses? Let's be honest here. It's not a volume of scripture. You know, its not a volume we consider scripture. Why do you pretend otherwise?

Second, Why should we settle for anything less than everything God has to offer? Why should we settle for coal when God wants to give us diamonds? Why settle for a kiddie pool when God gives you an ocean to swim in? Why settle for less than God has promised?

Why? because you are comfortable? Are you afraid that if you let go of the Bible as all there is it will somehow dimiss your faith in God? Have faith in God and don't limit yourself to what God has once said. He has much more to say to you if you will listen.

So where do we stand? You say you have the truth, and us bible based folks, believe we have the truth.

I say God has the truth. And I hope to learn every one He is willing to share with me. I dont want to be limited. I want to become the man God wants me to be. What truth do you have that we do not? We believe the Bible to contain Gods words. We simply dont accept the false doctrine that it's all God has or will ever say. Especially when it says the exact opposite!

I think that the big dividing line isn't visitations from angels, or latter day messages but defining who God is. Is He omnipotent from the very beginning, or is He not?

But we aren't dealing with God's omnipotence here are we? We are dealing with the fallen nature of man. Can man do anything perfectly? Can they convey truth perfectly? If so, why didn't God just give Adam all the rules and why dont we have them directly from Him? Why did He need to call any Prophet after Adam?

It's an easy answer. Its because we are fallen. We have to learn line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little. We need constant tutelage from God. And we need to learn the lessons ourself. We cant be saved through revelation for Adam. We can't even be saved through revelation for our parents. We have to be saved through our own direct revelation from God. And while the scriptures can be a tool to teach and edify us, they cannot save us.

 

[Avatar4321]

How about Santa Claus?

Everyone who knows anything about history knows that Ol Saint Nick was a real guy. He's just not around anymore.

I know I'm nitpicking here. But you mean he isnt alive in mortality anymore. He is somewhere. Everyone who has ever lived is somewhere.

 

[Truthspeaker]

How about Santa Claus?

Everyone who knows anything about history knows that Ol Saint Nick was a real guy. He's just not around anymore.

I know I'm nitpicking here. But you mean he isnt alive in mortality anymore. He is somewhere. Everyone who has ever lived is somewhere.

Of course.

 

[California Girl]

i like mormons. They're decent people generally.

Not so long ago, i was accosted by a drunk guy on a train in the uk. Crowds of people completely ignored the situation.... The only two who stepped forward to help this 'damsel in distress' were two mormon missionaries. Not only did they insert themselves quietly and firmly between me and the drunk guy but they stayed one either side until my stop.

wwjd?

Apparently, He'd send in the Mormons! LOL.

 

[Truthspeaker]

What a great California person!

 

[actsnoblemartin]

mormons are quite friendly, i like um.

I have started this post because it still seems there are a lot of people out there that don't understand our religion. One thing I know I can do is clarify a lot misconceptions that people have.
I served a two year mission in South Africa, and I think I have pretty much heard it all. I actually would welcome some questions that I haven't heard before.
I know some of you aren't interested in what we really believe, but are only going to be interested in trying to trap me in my words, but that's ok. I welcome those attempts as well. Let's see what this develops into.

 

[Truthspeaker]

mormons are quite friendly, i like um.

I have started this post because it still seems there are a lot of people out there that don't understand our religion. One thing I know I can do is clarify a lot misconceptions that people have.
I served a two year mission in South Africa, and I think I have pretty much heard it all. I actually would welcome some questions that I haven't heard before.
I know some of you aren't interested in what we really believe, but are only going to be interested in trying to trap me in my words, but that's ok. I welcome those attempts as well. Let's see what this develops into.

wOOO hOOOO! i LIKE nice people. The polls are rising every day. But it is clear there are still plenty of old misconceptions out there about us.

 

[necritan]

Hey guys....wanna go have some beer's...????

 

[Zona]

Glenn Beck is a mormon. Nuff said.

 

[California Girl]

Glenn Beck is a mormon. Nuff said.

He's also a Libertarian, a recovering alcoholic, and a really nice guy but don't let that stop you accusing him of being a rabid republican hatemonger..... Stupidity is not illegal, have at it.

So, Glenn is a nice guy, and a Mormon - you just proved my point. Mormons are decent people. Thanks Zona.

 

[Avatar4321]

Hey guys....wanna go have some beer's...????

Id love a root beer. Thank you!

 

[Avatar4321]

Glenn Beck is a mormon. Nuff said.

And he is so much the better for it.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Mormons are OK. No better, no worse than others. How they live their beliefs, particularly in being able to honestly answer the temple-recommend interview questions, is what counts.

 

[Zona]

What year did they say Blacks were not sub human? 78 or 79?

 

[Skeptik]

Glenn Beck is a mormon. Nuff said.

He's also a Libertarian, a recovering alcoholic, and a really nice guy but don't let that stop you accusing him of being a rabid republican hatemonger..... Stupidity is not illegal, have at it.

So, Glenn is a nice guy, and a Mormon - you just proved my point. Mormons are decent people. Thanks Zona.

Beck is a Libertarian? Really? Where does he stand on abortion and legalization of drugs, then? It would seem that there wouldn't be very many Libertarian Mormons because of those two issues.

As for him being a "nice guy", that's a matter of opinion.

 

[Avatar4321]

What year did they say Blacks were not sub human? 78 or 79?

1829. before the Church was founded. Read the Book of Mormon sometime and you wouldnt look so ignorant.

 

[Zona]

What year did they say Blacks were not sub human? 78 or 79?

1829. before the Church was founded. Read the Book of Mormon sometime and you wouldnt look so ignorant.

Pressure was also felt by the LDS during the 1970's because of the LDS' institutionalized racism. The IRS was threatening to cancel the church's non-profit tax exempt status. University sports teams were refusing to compete in Utah. This pressure was relieved on 1978-JUN-6 when the church received a new revelation from God to end the practice of discrimination against persons of African-American heritage

Racism in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons)

Ignorance indeed.

 

[California Girl]

Glenn Beck is a mormon. Nuff said.

He's also a Libertarian, a recovering alcoholic, and a really nice guy but don't let that stop you accusing him of being a rabid republican hatemonger..... Stupidity is not illegal, have at it.

So, Glenn is a nice guy, and a Mormon - you just proved my point. Mormons are decent people. Thanks Zona.

Beck is a Libertarian? Really? Where does he stand on abortion and legalization of drugs, then? It would seem that there wouldn't be very many Libertarian Mormons because of those two issues.

As for him being a "nice guy", that's a matter of opinion.

You would need to ask Glenn. I don't speak on behalf of others.... however, I will say that I find it perfectly understandable. I am pro-life and Catholic. However, I am also a believer in individual rights and responsibilities so, although I am pro-life, I also believe that it is not my place to tell another person that they cannot have an abortion - because that is inflicting my opinion on your life.

If everybody believed, as I do, that we are each responsible for ourselves, the country would be what the founding fathers intended it to be.... a beacon of true democracy and a glorious republic. An example for the rest of the world to aspire to and envy. We were that country once, and we could be again......

If only we would stop electing self-serving, dishonest, idiots.

 

[Skeptik]

If only we would stop electing self-serving, dishonest, idiots.

That would be a giant step forward, wouldn't it?

Maybe if fewer voters based their votes on TV ads and party affiliation, we could at least begin to accomplish such a miracle.