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You do realize that you can't commit adultery with someone you are married to right?
You do realize that you can't commit adultery with someone you are married to right?
Actually . . . go study the case of Rachel and Andrew Jackson.,
In other words, yes, Joseph was an adulterer because he was married to Emma. The other relationships, like the FLDS today, were only carnal relationships, no different than Jim Jones, David Koresh, or Tony Alamo.
You do realize that you can't commit adultery with someone you are married to right?
Actually . . . go study the case of Rachel and Andrew Jackson.,
In other words, yes, Joseph was an adulterer because he was married to Emma. The other relationships, like the FLDS today, were only carnal relationships, no different than Jim Jones, David Koresh, or Tony Alamo.
Which, of course, brings up the huge point of there being absolutely no evidence of any carnal relationships.
Actually . . . go study the case of Rachel and Andrew Jackson.,
In other words, yes, Joseph was an adulterer because he was married to Emma. The other relationships, like the FLDS today, were only carnal relationships, no different than Jim Jones, David Koresh, or Tony Alamo.
Which, of course, brings up the huge point of there being absolutely no evidence of any carnal relationships.
Dead wrong. This is not an issue whatsoever. Joseph had sexual relationships with women not his wife. Major temple-going LDS historians, far more learned than you on this subject, such as Richard Bushman (Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling ) and Todd Compton (Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith ), have clearly documented beyond a shadow of a doubt this fact of JS's life.
Here is a great, short site to read: "http://www.lds-mormon.com/isl.shtml".
Todd Compton
In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith
from the publisher:
"Beginning in the 1830s, at least thirty-three women married Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism. These were passionate relationships which also had some longevity, except in cases such as that of two young sisters, one of whom was discovered by Joseph's first wife, Emma, in a locked bedroom with the prophet. Emma remained a steadfast opponent of polygamy throughout her life."
"The majority of Smith's wives were younger than he, and one-third were between fourteen and twenty years of age. Another third were already married, and some of the husbands served as witnesses at their own wife's polyandrous wedding. In addition, some of the wives hinted that they bore Smith children--most notably Sylvia Sessions's daughter Josephine--although the children carried their stepfather's surname.""For all of Smith's wives, the experience of being secretly married was socially isolating, emotionally draining, and sexually frustrating. Despite the spiritual and temporal benefits, which they acknowledged, they found their faith tested to the limit of its endurance. After Smith's death in 1844, their lives became even more "lonely and desolate." One even joined a convent. The majority were appropriated by Smith's successors, based on the Old Testament law of the Levirate, and had children by them, though they considered these guardianships unsatisfying. Others stayed in the Midwest and remarried, while one moved to California. But all considered their lives unhappy, except for the joy they found in their children and grandchildren."
Todd Compton, Ph.D., classics, UCLA, is the editor of Hugh Nibley's Mormonism and Early Christianity, a contributor to The Encyclopedia of Mormonism and Women and Authority: Re-emerging Mormon Feminism, and has been published in the American Journal of Philology, Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Classical Quarterly, and the Journal of Popular Culture, among others. He currently plays electric violin in the Mark Davis Group, which performs at coffee houses and music clubs in the Los Angeles area, and is the assistant systems manager for Paul, Hastings, Jaofski, and Walker. He lives in Santa Monica, California.
More from Compton.
Did JS have carnal relations with women not his wife:
Compton writes:
"Because of claims by Reorganized Latter-day Saints that Joseph was not really married polygamously in the full (i.e., sexual) sense of the term, Utah Mormons (including Joseph's wives) affirmed repeatedly that Joseph had physical sexual relations with his plural wives-despite the Victorian conventions in nineteenth-century American religion which otherwise would have prevented mention of sexual relations in marriage."
- Faithful Mormon Melissa Lott (Smith Willes) testified that she had been Joseph's wife "in very deed." (Affidavit of Melissa Willes, 3 Aug. 1893, Temple Lot case, 98, 105; Foster, Religion and Sexuality, 156.)
- In a court affidavit, faithful Mormon Joseph Noble wrote that Joseph told him he had spent the night with Louisa Beaman. (Temple Lot Case, 427)
- Emily D. Partridge (Smith Young) said she "roomed" with Joseph the night following her marriage to him and said that she had "carnal intercourse" with him. (Temple Lot case (complete transcript), 364, 367, 384; see Foster, Religion and Sexuality, 15.)
joseph smithIn total, 13 faithful latter-day saint women who were married to Joseph Smith swore court affidavits that they had sexual relations with him.
- Joseph Smith's personal secretary records that on May 22nd, 1843, Smith's first wife Emma found Joseph and Eliza Partridge secluded in an upstairs bedroom at the Smith home. Emma was devastated.
William Clayton's journal entry for 23 May (see Smith, 105-106)
- Smith's secretary William Clayton also recorded a visit to young Almera Johnson on May 16, 1843: "Prest. Joseph and I went to B[enjamin] F. Johnsons to sleep." Johnson himself later noted that on this visit Smith stayed with Almera "as man and wife" and "occupied the same room and bed with my sister, that the previous month he had occupied with the daughter of the late Bishop Partridge as his wife." Almera Johnson also confirmed her secret marriage to Joseph Smith: "I lived with the prophet Joseph as his wife and he visited me at the home of my brother Benjamin F." (Zimmerman, I Knew the Prophets, 44. See also "The Origin of Plural Marriage, Joseph F. Smith, Jr., Deseret News Press, page 70-71.)
- Faithful Mormon and Stake President Angus Cannon told Joseph Smith's son: "Brother Heber C. Kimball, I am informed, asked [Eliza R. Snow] the question if she was not a virgin although married to Joseph Smith and afterwards to Brigham Young, when she replied in a private gathering, "I thought you knew Joseph Smith better than that."" (Stake President Angus M. Cannon, statement of interview with Joseph III, 23, LDS archives.)
4. Did Joseph Smith father any children from his polygamous wives?
- Stake President Angus Cannon also testified: "I will now refer you to one case where it was said by the girl's grandmother that your father [Joseph Smith] has a daughter born of a plural wife. The girl's grandmother was Mother Sessions . . . She was the grand-daughter of Mother Sessions. That girl, I believe, is living today, in Bountiful, north of this city. I heard prest. Young, a short time before his death, refer to the report . . . The woman is now said to have a family of children, and I think she is still living." (Stake President Angus M. Cannon, statement of interview with Joseph III, 25-26, LDS archives.)
- Faithful Mormon and wife of Joseph Smith, Sylvia Sessions (Lyon), on her deathbed told her daughter, Josephine, that she (Josephine) was the daughter of Joseph Smith. Josephine testified: "She (Sylvia) then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith, she having been sealed to the Prophet at the time that her husband Mr. Lyon was out of fellowship with the Church." (Affidavit to Church Historian Andrew Jenson, 24 Feb. 1915)
- In her testimony given at a Brigham Young University devotional, Faithful Mormon Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner stated that she knew of children born to Smith's plural wives: "I know he [Joseph Smith] had six wives and I have known some of them from childhood up. I know he had three children. They told me. I think two are living today but they are not known as his children as they go by other names." (Read her full BYU testimony here: LDS History)
- Faithful Mormon Prescindia D. Huntington, who was Normal Buell's wife and simultaneously a "plural wife" of the Prophet Joseph Smith, said that she did not know whether her husband Norman "or the Prophet was the father of her son, Oliver." And a glance at a photo of Oliver shows a strong resemblance to Emma Smith's boys.
(Mary Ettie V. Smith, "Fifteen Years Among the Mormons", page 34; also Fawn Brodie "No Man Knows My History" pages 301-302, 437-39)
- Researchers have tentatively identified eight children that Joseph Smith may have had by his plural wives. Besides Josephine Fisher (b. Feb. 8, 1844) and Oliver Buell, named as possible children of Joseph Smith by his plural wives are John R. Hancock (b. Apr. 19, 1841), George A. Lightner (b. Mar. 12, 1842), Orson W. Hyde (b. Nov. 9, 1843), Frank H. Hyde (b. Jan 23, 1845), Moroni Pratt (b. Dec. 7, 1844), and Zebulon Jacobs (b. Jan 2, 1842). ("Mormon Polygamy: A History" by LDS Historian Richard S. Van Wagoner, pages 44, 48- 49n3
You do realize that you can't commit adultery with someone you are married to right?
Actually . . . go study the case of Rachel and Andrew Jackson.,
In other words, yes, Joseph was an adulterer because he was married to Emma. The other relationships, like the FLDS today, were only carnal relationships, no different than Jim Jones, David Koresh, or Tony Alamo.
Which, of course, brings up the huge point of there being absolutely no evidence of any carnal relationships.
Thanks, Gunny. I will simply contend that he was legally married to one woman. Compton would argue that JS's relationships were justified under D&C 132. I will mildly point out other religious leaders in the U.S. have justified their own carnal relationships similarly.
The point is that JS had sexual relations with many women who were not Emma. That is indisputable.
I agree that is the general defense of most (not all) Mormons who follow the teaching of Joseph the Prophet in the Restoration of the Last Days.
Mormons are anyone who follows the teachings of Joseph Smith. The term is not defined by you or the LDS church or anyone else. The term is what it is. So, yes, the FLDS, the Wightites, the Bickertonites, the Smithites, Temple Lot, RLDS, Community of Christ ~ all are Mormons, along with literally the hundreds of other Mormon schismatic organizations.
The LDS are merely one of so many Mormon sects.
Here is a great work to read: Scattering Of The Saints: Schism Within Mormonism by Newell G. Bringhurst and John C. Hamer (Paperback - Sept. 10, 2007)
1 : the ancient redactor and compiler of the Book of Mormon presented as divine revelation by Joseph Smith
2 : latter-day saint; especially : a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
That's a rather poor, limited definition of Mormonism.
This is a better one, in my opinion.
Britannica Concise Encyclopedia:
Mormon
Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or of a sect closely related to it (e.g., the Community of Christ). The Mormon religion was founded by Joseph Smith, who claimed to have received an angelic vision telling him of the location of golden plates containing God's revelation; this he published in 1830 as the Book of Mormon. Smith and his followers accepted the Bible as well as the Mormon sacred scriptures but diverged significantly from orthodox Christianity, especially in their assertion that God exists in three distinct entities as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Mormons also believe that faithful members of the church will inherit eternal life as gods. Other unique doctrines include the belief in preexisting souls waiting to be born and in salvation of the dead through retroactive baptism. The church became notorious for its practice of polygamy, though it was officially sanctioned only between 1852 and 1890. Smith and his followers migrated from Palmyra, N.Y., to Ohio, Missouri, and finally Illinois, where Smith was killed by a mob in 1844. In 1846 47, under Brigham Young, the Mormons made a 1,100-mi (1,800-km) trek to Utah, where they founded Salt Lake City. In the early 21st century, the church had a worldwide membership of nearly 10 million, swelled yearly by the missionary work that church members, both men and women, are encouraged to perform.
For more information on Mormon, visit Britannica.com.
Mormon: Definition from Answers.com
That's a rather poor, limited definition of Mormonism.
This is a better one, in my opinion.
Britannica Concise Encyclopedia:
Mormon
Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or of a sect closely related to it (e.g., the Community of Christ). The Mormon religion was founded by Joseph Smith, who claimed to have received an angelic vision telling him of the location of golden plates containing God's revelation; this he published in 1830 as the Book of Mormon. Smith and his followers accepted the Bible as well as the Mormon sacred scriptures but diverged significantly from orthodox Christianity, especially in their assertion that God exists in three distinct entities as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Mormons also believe that faithful members of the church will inherit eternal life as gods. Other unique doctrines include the belief in preexisting souls waiting to be born and in salvation of the dead through retroactive baptism. The church became notorious for its practice of polygamy, though it was officially sanctioned only between 1852 and 1890. Smith and his followers migrated from Palmyra, N.Y., to Ohio, Missouri, and finally Illinois, where Smith was killed by a mob in 1844. In 1846 – 47, under Brigham Young, the Mormons made a 1,100-mi (1,800-km) trek to Utah, where they founded Salt Lake City. In the early 21st century, the church had a worldwide membership of nearly 10 million, swelled yearly by the missionary work that church members, both men and women, are encouraged to perform.
For more information on Mormon, visit Britannica.com.
Mormon: Definition from Answers.com
Of course you prefer this definition, since it meets your preference. I prefer to use a definition of the term which does not generalize and cause confusion about which group of people is being discussed.
That's a rather poor, limited definition of Mormonism.
This is a better one, in my opinion.
Britannica Concise Encyclopedia:
Mormon
Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or of a sect closely related to it (e.g., the Community of Christ). The Mormon religion was founded by Joseph Smith, who claimed to have received an angelic vision telling him of the location of golden plates containing God's revelation; this he published in 1830 as the Book of Mormon. Smith and his followers accepted the Bible as well as the Mormon sacred scriptures but diverged significantly from orthodox Christianity, especially in their assertion that God exists in three distinct entities as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Mormons also believe that faithful members of the church will inherit eternal life as gods. Other unique doctrines include the belief in preexisting souls waiting to be born and in salvation of the dead through retroactive baptism. The church became notorious for its practice of polygamy, though it was officially sanctioned only between 1852 and 1890. Smith and his followers migrated from Palmyra, N.Y., to Ohio, Missouri, and finally Illinois, where Smith was killed by a mob in 1844. In 1846 47, under Brigham Young, the Mormons made a 1,100-mi (1,800-km) trek to Utah, where they founded Salt Lake City. In the early 21st century, the church had a worldwide membership of nearly 10 million, swelled yearly by the missionary work that church members, both men and women, are encouraged to perform.
For more information on Mormon, visit Britannica.com.
Mormon: Definition from Answers.com
Of course you prefer this definition, since it meets your preference. I prefer to use a definition of the term which does not generalize and cause confusion about which group of people is being discussed.
OK, then you are Mormon, not Christian. Do you see how inadequate your comment is above? Then should we call all those who follow JS and the Restoration as "the Latter Day Saints." Believe me, I know the Community of Christ would prefer that term to 'Mormons'.
But that is the issue.
FLDS follow their interp of JS and the Book of Mormon, D&C, etc. To them, you stopped in 1890. To them, they picked up the mantle. To them, they are 'real' Mormons.
And, of course, Mormons are a subset of Christianity, as are all the sects that follow JS subsets of Mormonism.
But that is the issue.
FLDS follow their interp of JS and the Book of Mormon, D&C, etc. To them, you stopped in 1890. To them, they picked up the mantle. To them, they are 'real' Mormons.
And, of course, Mormons are a subset of Christianity, as are all the sects that follow JS subsets of Mormonism.
Mormons, real ones, don't follow their interpretation of anything. The Mormons believe in living prophets, not in human interpretation of scriptures or of anything else.
That is the one thing that sets them apart from other Christian sects.
