The Truth about Mormons

[Skeptik]

But that is the issue.

FLDS follow their interp of JS and the Book of Mormon, D&C, etc. To them, you stopped in 1890. To them, they picked up the mantle. To them, they are 'real' Mormons.

And, of course, Mormons are a subset of Christianity, as are all the sects that follow JS subsets of Mormonism.

Mormons, real ones, don't follow their interpretation of anything. The Mormons believe in living prophets, not in human interpretation of scriptures or of anything else.

That is the one thing that sets them apart from other Christian sects.

And the Prophet spoke in 1890 and forbade polygamy. No Mormon after that can claim to be a Mormon and support Polygamy as the Prophet, who speaks for God has said God Forbade it.

Exactly. Mormons by definition do not practice polygamy.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Exactly wrong, guys. Many Mormons (followers of Joseph Smith and the Restoration, of which the LDS is only a sect) disagree with you guys. In other words, the LDS church does not control the definition of who is a "Mormon". Yes, many Mormons do believe in it and practice it.

 

[Skeptik]

Exactly wrong, guys. Many Mormons (followers of Joseph Smith and the Restoration, of which the LDS is only a sect) disagree with you guys. In other words, the LDS church does not control the definition of who is a "Mormon". Yes, many Mormons do believe in it and practice it.

LDS is synonymous with Mormon.

 

[JakeStarkey]

No, LDS is a sect in Mormonism. In the west of Texas, "mormon" is the normal appellation for the FLDS. It is for almost any congregation of Mormons of any sect.

 

[Skeptik]

No, LDS is a sect in Mormonism. In the west of Texas, "mormon" is the normal appellation for the FLDS. It is for almost any congregation of Mormons of any sect.

They probably use a lot of incorrect words and expressions in West Texas.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Nah, they are using the term appropriately.

For instance, Chrisitanity > Protestantism (reformed, lutheran, anglican, dissenting) and Catholicism (Roman, Orthodox, Eastern, Conservative), and so forth.

Mormonism > LDS, FLDS, Temple Lot, Hendrickite, plus several hundreds of Mormon denominations since 1830.

This is not about 'legitimacy' or who is the rightful descendants of Joseph Smith. You will probably be horrified to learn that the U.S. court in the Temple Lot Case (1893) found the RLDS Church the lawful descendant of Joseph Smith's Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints.

My point is only about using correct terminology. We see what happens when the right and the left here try to "frame" arguments by claiming only their definitions are correct.

 

[Skeptik]

Nah, they are using the term appropriately.

For instance, Chrisitanity > Protestantism (reformed, lutheran, anglican, dissenting) and Catholicism (Roman, Orthodox, Eastern, Conservative), and so forth.

Mormonism > LDS, FLDS, Temple Lot, Hendrickite, plus several hundreds of Mormon denominations since 1830.

This is not about 'legitimacy' or who is the rightful descendants of Joseph Smith. You will probably be horrified to learn that the U.S. court in the Temple Lot Case (1893) found the RLDS Church the lawful descendant of Joseph Smith's Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints.

My point is only about using correct terminology. We see what happens when the right and the left here try to "frame" arguments by claiming only their definitions are correct.

By your definition, the Protestant sects are really Catholic, as they follow the same Bible. the RLDS and FLDS sects split from the LDS in much the same way that the Protestants split off from the Catholic church, and for much the same reasons, disagreement over doctrine.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Almost there. The Protestants and Catholics are Christian (I will include Mormons, too). The Community of Christ, Restoration branches, LDS, FLDS, and so forth are Mormon or Latter Day Saint if you prefer.

 

[Skeptik]

Almost there. The Protestants and Catholics are Christian (I will include Mormons, too). The Community of Christ, Restoration branches, LDS, FLDS, and so forth are Mormon or Latter Day Saint if you prefer.

OK, if you're willing to put Catholics, Protestants, and Mormons together as the Community of Christ, then you do have a point.

The mainstream LDS don't claim the FLDS nor the RLDS as being of the same faith, any more than the Catholics see the Baptists as being fellow Catholics, and for the same reason.

But, you're right. When you boil it all down, all Christian faiths believe in the divinity of Christ, and in trying, as best we can as imperfect beings, to follow His example. They're all of the Community of Christ, regardless of differences in doctrine.

 

[Avatar4321]

Exactly wrong, guys. Many Mormons (followers of Joseph Smith and the Restoration, of which the LDS is only a sect) disagree with you guys. In other words, the LDS church does not control the definition of who is a "Mormon". Yes, many Mormons do believe in it and practice it.

Mormon has a very strict definition. It's defined as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

And membership in the Church is also very clearly defined. You must be baptized by one in authority to baptize in the Church. You are a member as long as you live unless you are excommunicated or formally request to be withdrawn.

Any other sect, fails the test because they A) were never baptized or B) were excommunicated.

Your attempts to obscur the meaning of the word for whatever reasons, have failed.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Almost there. The Protestants and Catholics are Christian (I will include Mormons, too). The Community of Christ, Restoration branches, LDS, FLDS, and so forth are Mormon or Latter Day Saint if you prefer.

OK, if you're willing to put Catholics, Protestants, and Mormons together as the Community of Christ, then you do have a point.

The mainstream LDS don't claim the FLDS nor the RLDS as being of the same faith, any more than the Catholics see the Baptists as being fellow Catholics, and for the same reason.

But, you're right. When you boil it all down, all Christian faiths believe in the divinity of Christ, and in trying, as best we can as imperfect beings, to follow His example. They're all of the Community of Christ, regardless of differences in doctrine.

Well, I appreciate the concept, and I agree as you define it. The current-day Community of Christ is the renamed Reorganized Latter Day Saints Church, you know.

But, yes, all believers of Christ are in the community of Christ. All believers in JS and the BoM are Mormons, of which there are and have been several hundred denominations. The more I think of it, the more I like substituting Latter Day Saints for Mormons as the inclusive title for all latter day believers.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Exactly wrong, guys. Many Mormons (followers of Joseph Smith and the Restoration, of which the LDS is only a sect) disagree with you guys. In other words, the LDS church does not control the definition of who is a "Mormon". Yes, many Mormons do believe in it and practice it.

Mormon has a very strict definition. It's defined as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

And membership in the Church is also very clearly defined. You must be baptized by one in authority to baptize in the Church. You are a member as long as you live unless you are excommunicated or formally request to be withdrawn.

Any other sect, fails the test because they A) were never baptized or B) were excommunicated.

Your attempts to obscur the meaning of the word for whatever reasons, have failed.

You have shanked your drive into the wild.

The term "Mormons" has been applied to all the denominations who have followed JS and believed in the BoM. The RLDS hated the word, preferring Latter Day Saints.

No, you don't get to define the word in terms of the SLC church. Its lawyers tried to get the name trademarked and the courts threw it out.

I know what you are saying, but it just isn't so.

 

[Christopher]

Exactly wrong, guys. Many Mormons (followers of Joseph Smith and the Restoration, of which the LDS is only a sect) disagree with you guys. In other words, the LDS church does not control the definition of who is a "Mormon". Yes, many Mormons do believe in it and practice it.

Mormon has a very strict definition. It's defined as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

And membership in the Church is also very clearly defined. You must be baptized by one in authority to baptize in the Church. You are a member as long as you live unless you are excommunicated or formally request to be withdrawn.

Any other sect, fails the test because they A) were never baptized or B) were excommunicated.

Your attempts to obscur the meaning of the word for whatever reasons, have failed.

You have shanked your drive into the wild.

The term "Mormons" has been applied to all the denominations who have followed JS and believed in the BoM. The RLDS hated the word, preferring Latter Day Saints.

No, you don't get to define the word in terms of the SLC church. Its lawyers tried to get the name trademarked and the courts threw it out.

I know what you are saying, but it just isn't so.

The word has been misapplied in many instances. That is the main point. The word actually refers to, according to the account, a prophet in the Book of Mormon and is the first definition given by Webster’s.

You do not get to define it either. I will stick to Webster’s second definition, which strictly says that a Mormon is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. To refer to the “Mormons” when talking about the FLDS is misapplying the definition and only causes confusion between which religion is actually being discussed.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Webster's is only one of several definitions, and it is certainly not binding.

The lawful descendent of the JS church, by federal court decision in 1893, is the now Community of Christ is not the current CoJCoL-d-S. That is the law.

'Mormon' is the historially correct title for all sects and denominations that follow and uphold JS and the Book of the Mormon. The LDS Church, the largest denomination of Mormonism, is only one sect of Mormonism.

Yeah, the FLDS are "Mormon", no different than the LDS or any other group.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Webster's is only one of several definitions, and it is certainly not binding.

The lawful descendent of the JS church, by federal court decision in 1893, is the now Community of Christ is not the current CoJCoL-d-S. That is the law.

'Mormon' is the historially correct title for all sects and denominations that follow and uphold JS and the Book of the Mormon. The LDS Church, the largest denomination of Mormonism, is only one sect of Mormonism.

Yeah, the FLDS are "Mormon", no different than the LDS or any other group.

So according to you... Baptists of all types are Catholics? In fact using your definition ANY Christian group that broke with the Catholic Church are still Catholics. Thanks for proving you are a dumb ass.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Webster's is only one of several definitions, and it is certainly not binding.

The lawful descendent of the JS church, by federal court decision in 1893, is the now Community of Christ is not the current CoJCoL-d-S. That is the law.

'Mormon' is the historially correct title for all sects and denominations that follow and uphold JS and the Book of the Mormon. The LDS Church, the largest denomination of Mormonism, is only one sect of Mormonism.

Yeah, the FLDS are "Mormon", no different than the LDS or any other group.

So according to you... Baptists of all types are Catholics? In fact using your definition ANY Christian group that broke with the Catholic Church are still Catholics. Thanks for proving you are a dumb ass.

I see why you lose discussions, RGS. You are unable to perform derivative and comparative analysis. Your analogy is false. Mormons and Baptists and Catholics are part of Christianity. Orthodox and Roman Catholic and Conservative are part of Catholicism. Primitive, Conservative, Southern Baptist, Two-Seed, and twelve other sects are part of the Baptist faith. LDS and FLDS and CoC are part of Mormonism.

Let this matter go while you are behind.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Webster's is only one of several definitions, and it is certainly not binding.

The lawful descendent of the JS church, by federal court decision in 1893, is the now Community of Christ is not the current CoJCoL-d-S. That is the law.

'Mormon' is the historially correct title for all sects and denominations that follow and uphold JS and the Book of the Mormon. The LDS Church, the largest denomination of Mormonism, is only one sect of Mormonism.

Yeah, the FLDS are "Mormon", no different than the LDS or any other group.

So according to you... Baptists of all types are Catholics? In fact using your definition ANY Christian group that broke with the Catholic Church are still Catholics. Thanks for proving you are a dumb ass.

I see why you lose discussions, RGS. You are unable to perform derivative and comparative analysis. Your analogy is false. Mormons and Baptists and Catholics are part of Christianity. Orthodox and Roman Catholic and Conservative are part of Catholicism. Primitive, Conservative, Southern Baptist, Two-Seed, and twelve other sects are part of the Baptist faith. LDS and FLDS and CoC are part of Mormonism.

Let this matter go while you are behind.

Wrong, you have claimed anyone that believed in the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith were automatically Mormons. Using your definition and claims, since Baptists believe in the Bible and Jesus then they must be catholic as it had it first. In fact Mormons must be Catholics as well as they also believe in the Bible and Jesus. Using your bullshit definition everyone that is a Christian is also a Catholic.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Won't argue with someone who convolutes logic, but thanks for proving my point. Your analogy is false, mine is obviously correct. I have nothing against Mormons or their faith, just against your reasoning. That's OK, though. Most historians, including LDS historians, use "Mormon" and "Mormonism" to define all followers of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.

 

[Christopher]

Webster's is only one of several definitions, and it is certainly not binding.

The lawful descendent of the JS church, by federal court decision in 1893, is the now Community of Christ is not the current CoJCoL-d-S. That is the law.

'Mormon' is the historially correct title for all sects and denominations that follow and uphold JS and the Book of the Mormon. The LDS Church, the largest denomination of Mormonism, is only one sect of Mormonism.

Yeah, the FLDS are "Mormon", no different than the LDS or any other group.

Of course it is only one of several. Here are a few more for you:
Mormon - definition of Mormon by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

1. (Christian Churches, other) a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, founded in 1830 at La Fayette, New York, by Joseph Smith (1805-44)

Mormon | Define Mormon at Dictionary.com

the popular name given to a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

It seems more prevalent than your definition.

Here is another example of what you seem to be willing to accept with your post here. Let’s say that people were discussing some of the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church regarding gays. You would be OK with the discussion only making reference to the Baptist Church as a whole and never mentioning the specific church? Would it not be important to you to distinguish this independent church by its full name so that people would not assume that you were discussing all Baptist churches?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Webster's is only one of several definitions, and it is certainly not binding.

The lawful descendent of the JS church, by federal court decision in 1893, is the now Community of Christ is not the current CoJCoL-d-S. That is the law.

'Mormon' is the historially correct title for all sects and denominations that follow and uphold JS and the Book of the Mormon. The LDS Church, the largest denomination of Mormonism, is only one sect of Mormonism.

Yeah, the FLDS are "Mormon", no different than the LDS or any other group.

Of course it is only one of several. Here are a few more for you:
Mormon - definition of Mormon by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

1. (Christian Churches, other) a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, founded in 1830 at La Fayette, New York, by Joseph Smith (1805-44)

Mormon | Define Mormon at Dictionary.com

the popular name given to a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

It seems more prevalent than your definition.

Here is another example of what you seem to be willing to accept with your post here. Let’s say that people were discussing some of the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church regarding gays. You would be OK with the discussion only making reference to the Baptist Church as a whole and never mentioning the specific church? Would it not be important to you to distinguish this independent church by its full name so that people would not assume that you were discussing all Baptist churches?

The definition is not definitive and not used that way by historians. Too many Mormon denominations exist That's exactly why historians refer to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as opposed to the Fundamentalist Latter-day Saints Church or the (Wightites) Church of Jesus Christ, all branches of Mormonism.