The Truth about Mormons

[Jack Fate]

Joseph Smith fails the test of a prophet of God. Therefore, Mormonism is a false religion. Jesus is the final Old Testament Prophet. Everything is revealed in Jesus Christ. Mormonism is no more from God than Islam is.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Joseph Smith fails the test of a prophet of God. Therefore, Mormonism is a false religion. Jesus is the final Old Testament Prophet. Everything is revealed in Jesus Christ. Mormonism is no more from God than Islam is.

Which test are you referring to which Joseph failed? What qualifications are you claiming that he hasn't met?
Your post is lacking depth and just reeks of accusations rather than thoughtful evaluation.

I have my reasons for disliking Islam, but what is YOUR problem with Islam, to digress?

 

[Jack Fate]

Joseph Smith fails the test of a prophet of God. Therefore, Mormonism is a false religion. Jesus is the final Old Testament Prophet. Everything is revealed in Jesus Christ. Mormonism is no more from God than Islam is.

Which test are you referring to which Joseph failed? What qualifications are you claiming that he hasn't met?
Your post is lacking depth and just reeks of accusations rather than thoughtful evaluation.

I have my reasons for disliking Islam, but what is YOUR problem with Islam, to digress?

I dislike Islam because Mohammed was a false prophet. Here is some "depth" for ya.

Joseph Smith as a Prophet

 

[Eightball]

The scriptures are meant to point to the nature and existence of God, not replace God.

Thats a "no brainer"........Never said otherwise in any word or form on this or any forum.

Yes you have, and unequivically so. You have constantly said the Bible is an infallible book and therefore, since the book itself is perfect, it forms your belief system which is this:

If it's not in the Bible, it's not doctrine.

Since the book has a finite number of pages, even if it WERE perfect, it would still be limiting God's words to the words in those pages.

But then again, the Bible never does say that no other scriptures were ever to be admitted.

You also fail to realize just how human the scholars and committees in charge of putting the Bible together really were.

You have it so screwed up......I don't even know where to start.

Yes........the bible has proven itself over and over.............Yes.....It reveals to us the nature of God, and His message which in the N.T. is very clearly revealed.

Don't you understand................to know who your praying to, and to know if He is the real true God..........You need information.........

The bible is that information packet...........It was inspired by God, and when a person who is seeking God reads it, the H.S. works through the bible to lead a person to the great conclusion...........I am a sinner..........God is Holy, and does not sin...........God made everything...........He's in charge.............I can be reconciled to Him through faith in His Son Jesus who is revealed in the bible.

How can you dish this book that has been proven to be transcribed correctly over the last 2,000 years evidenced by the Dead Sea Scrolls, yet hang onto the BOM as a superior book to the bible, when it has gone through 4,000 + changes in a century and a half?
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The bible is not worshipped..........it is the compass, the information given to us so that we can exercise saving faith unto our salvation.

 

[Jack Fate]

Every Mormon and Jehovah's Witness I've ever dealt will continually pick apart the bible and promote their "holy" books. They are taught to do that. It's only logical. If they are taught the bible then they will learn the truth and leave. Can't have that.

 

[Avatar4321]

The scriptures are meant to point to the nature and existence of God, not replace God.

Thats a "no brainer"........Never said otherwise in any word or form on this or any forum.

Which is why you always advocate looking to the Bible over listening to the Spirit.

 

[Jack Fate]

The scriptures are meant to point to the nature and existence of God, not replace God.

Thats a "no brainer"........Never said otherwise in any word or form on this or any forum.

Which is why you always advocate looking to the Bible over listening to the Spirit.

The Holy Spirit will never contradict the Word and vice versa.

 

[Avatar4321]

Joseph Smith fails the test of a prophet of God. Therefore, Mormonism is a false religion. Jesus is the final Old Testament Prophet. Everything is revealed in Jesus Christ. Mormonism is no more from God than Islam is.

First, Jesus isnt an Old Testament Prophet. He is clearly in the New Testament.

Second, Acts clearly mentions prophets after Christ's ascension. Paul mentions that Apostles and prophets are the foundation of the Church. Revelation foretold the coming of two prophets to Jerusalem prior to the coming of Christ. There is no evidence that prophets ceased with Christ. The Bible points the exact opposite.

Third, The Spirit of Prophecy is a testimony of Jesus Christ. If we are to accept that prophets have ceased, that means no one has the a testimony of Jesus Christ. I can promise you that there are many people who have recieved testimonies of Jesus Christ. They are touched with the Spirit of Prophecy and know from the Father that Jesus truely is the Messiah and the Son of God.

Fourth, Jesus instructed us in the Sermon on the Mount how to discern between true prophets and false ones. This instruction would be completely pointless if there were no true prophets. "By their fruits ye shall know them"

And what are their fruits? They would be the fruits of the Spirit Paul described:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. (Gal 5:22-23)

I would argue that Joseph's fruits invite the fruits of the Spirit and are good. The levels of rich knowledge and goodness found in the Revelations of the Restoration are just to good to dismiss, and complex to believe they are coincidences.

 

[Avatar4321]

Every Mormon and Jehovah's Witness I've ever dealt will continually pick apart the bible and promote their "holy" books. They are taught to do that. It's only logical. If they are taught the bible then they will learn the truth and leave. Can't have that.

We study the Bible indepth all the time. We spend twice as much time on the Bible as we do any other works of revelation. We simply aren't going to pretend it's something that it doesn't claim to be. We aren't going to pretend God is silent. We aren't going to pretend that He hasn't called Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, Teachers, etc to bring us to a unity of faith. We aren't going to pretend that God's word to us now is less important than His word to our ancestors.

We aren't saved by Noah's revelations to build the Ark.

We aren't saved by Moses revelation of the Law of Moses.

We aren't saved by Isaiah's revelations to the children of Israel.

We aren't saved by Peter's revelations, or by Pauls revelations.

We have to recieve our own. Because our day and age is different from theirs. We don't face the same problems they did. And only by the grace of God can we recieve that revelation.

You say you believe in an unchanging God. He revealed His word from heaven to the living in the past. Why do you seem to think that He has stopped? The scriptures say nothing. In fact, they often rebuked those who claimed that revelation had ceased. Don't the scriptures state that the people marveled because Jesus and the Twelve spoke as ones with authority, and not like the scribes and pharisees?

The scribes and the pharisees weren't wrong for looking to the scriptures, they were wrong for ignoring the revelation occuring in their time and listening to the Spirit of God.

Where are the Apostles and Prophets? Where are those with authority to speak from God? How can you claim authority when you deny the Spirit of Revelation and Prophecy which is the very testimony of Jesus Christ?

There are Apostles sent by God that live today. The Lord calls prophets, pastors, teachers, Evangelists, Bishops, Deacons, Priests to teach His plan to His people. Why on earth would you settle for part of the word of God when He will reveal so much more to you if you give Him the chance?

 

[Avatar4321]

Thats a "no brainer"........Never said otherwise in any word or form on this or any forum.

Which is why you always advocate looking to the Bible over listening to the Spirit.

The Holy Spirit will never contradict the Word and vice versa.

No. It testifies of the Word fo God. And the scriptures teach us that the Word of God is Jesus Christ, not the Bible.

The Bible contains the Word of God. It contains the words of good men and the words of bad men. It also contains the words of an ass rebuking his master on the roadside.

The Book of Mormon also contains the Word of God. It testifies of the Divinity and Mission of Jesus Christ. It teaches the words He spake when He appeared to the people in America after His resurrection. It proves that the words of the Bible are true. It shows the world that Jesus truely is the Christ. That the Lord remembers the Covenants He has made with the House of Israel.

And the Testimonies of Judah and Joseph will run together. They show to the world that God has worked with more than one nation. He has spoken to all people. He is the God of all people. That He hasn't ceased His work and will not cease until He returns.

Look around you. You can see the work of God amongst the people in this the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. You can see how he has inspired men to be industrious. To create technology. We live in a world where travel and communication are easier and greater than ever before. You think this is mere coincidence? That the hand of God isn't in this?

You think the United States of America was set up as a land of Freedom by pure chance? The hand of the Almighty was in it. All the Founders acknowledged it. Do you think the New World was discovered by coincidence? Columbus readily admits that it was the Holy Spirit that inspired him to travel west.

Do you think the Industrial Revolution was an accident? Or the Reformation which Martin Luther began? You think it's just a coincidence that the Printing Press was invented when it was?

The Lord had His hands in it all from the Beginning. And everything He has done is calculated to redeem His people. Yet, we are supposed to believe that God didn't ever talk to anyone the people in Palestine. That He has never revealed His Word except to them?

The Lord spoke to those in America. He wanted His word to them to shine as a Second witness. Thus we have the Book of Mormon which was translated by the power of God. Somehow we are supposed to believe that an impoverished farmboy who could barely dictate a coherent letter wrote the Book of Mormon when even His family knew that it was beyond His skills? Not only that, but we are supposed to think that he somehow managed to get 11 other witnesses to testify to that record, and to get them to uphold their testimonies at the cost of their lives or after they had fallen out with Joseph. We are supposed to believe that these men gave up social and political standing in their communities for a testimony they knew was false?

Look at Oliver Cowdery. He was the Second Elder of the Church. He helped translate the Book of Mormon. He was present when the Aaronic and Melchesidek Priesthood was restored. He was there when Elijah came and restored the sealing keys. Yet, after having a disagreement with Joseph and leaving the Church, he still testified that He saw these things. He could have been the Governor of Wisconsin, but lost the race because he wouldnt deny that He had witnessed the angel and the plates or any of the other experiences. He wrote private letters to others discussing these things as though they really happened long after he left the Church and recieved no benefit for it. He eventually resubmitted himself to baptism despite knowing he wouldn't have the same position and authority in the Church. Does this sound like a man who was lying? And if he wasnt lying how the heck did anyone convince him that he actually saw what He saw? And this is a brief summary of Oliver's life and story. And there are still 10 other witnesses, some of who were martyred for their faith.

You can't explain it. No one can. But we are simply supposed to discount it because it's absurd. What is so absurd about the ministering of angels? Why is it absurd that God speaks or that He continues His work in the last days to prepare for His return?

Is there any age of the world where the need for God to speak and to act is greater than it is this day? Can anyone deny how pervasive wickedness in the world? Can anyone deny the attrocious acts that man does? Or that we have the capacity to destroy our entire race?

The only real difference between us is that you say you believe the Bible, but you don't understand it. Because the Bible points to coming to God and learning for ourselves. It doesn't make the claim that it's all there is. In fact, There are verses that say the exact opposite.

25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen (John 21:25)

Does that sound like it contains all there is? Sounds like the exact opposite to me.

Peter and Paul even admits there was alot that the people werent ready for and that they didnt teach them:

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. (1 Cor. 3:2)

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.(Hebrews 5:12-13)

1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,

2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: (1 Peter 2:1-2)

Here we have 3 separate places in the scriptures where the Apostles tell the people they are teaching them the milk of the Gospel and that they need to do this to grow before they reach the meat. We also have Christ's own words:

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. (Matthew 13:10-12)

If we follow Christ, we are to know the Mysteries of the Kingdom. And the more we recieve, the more we will be given.

And you think the Bible is all the knowledge God has for man? Seriously? I've god 3 other volumes of scriptures and I still don't think I have everything God has for man. In fact, Im quote confident that there are many great and important things that God hasnt revealed to me yet because I am not prepared for them.

This turned out to me alot longer than I expected. But I seriously don't understand why you think that God has changed and stopped speaking. I don't know why you think the Bible says everything when it specifically states that it doesn't. I don't know why people have such a hard time letting God and letting God teach them more. I dont even know why I have that trouble. But I just have hope that someday we all will let go and learn.

 

[Eightball]

Which is why you always advocate looking to the Bible over listening to the Spirit.

The Holy Spirit will never contradict the Word and vice versa.

No. It testifies of the Word fo God. And the scriptures teach us that the Word of God is Jesus Christ, not the Bible.

The Bible contains the Word of God. It contains the words of good men and the words of bad men. It also contains the words of an ass rebuking his master on the roadside.

The Book of Mormon also contains the Word of God. It testifies of the Divinity and Mission of Jesus Christ. It teaches the words He spake when He appeared to the people in America after His resurrection. It proves that the words of the Bible are true. It shows the world that Jesus truely is the Christ. That the Lord remembers the Covenants He has made with the House of Israel.

And the Testimonies of Judah and Joseph will run together. They show to the world that God has worked with more than one nation. He has spoken to all people. He is the God of all people. That He hasn't ceased His work and will not cease until He returns.

Look around you. You can see the work of God amongst the people in this the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. You can see how he has inspired men to be industrious. To create technology. We live in a world where travel and communication are easier and greater than ever before. You think this is mere coincidence? That the hand of God isn't in this?

You think the United States of America was set up as a land of Freedom by pure chance? The hand of the Almighty was in it. All the Founders acknowledged it. Do you think the New World was discovered by coincidence? Columbus readily admits that it was the Holy Spirit that inspired him to travel west.

Do you think the Industrial Revolution was an accident? Or the Reformation which Martin Luther began? You think it's just a coincidence that the Printing Press was invented when it was?

The Lord had His hands in it all from the Beginning. And everything He has done is calculated to redeem His people. Yet, we are supposed to believe that God didn't ever talk to anyone the people in Palestine. That He has never revealed His Word except to them?

The Lord spoke to those in America. He wanted His word to them to shine as a Second witness. Thus we have the Book of Mormon which was translated by the power of God. Somehow we are supposed to believe that an impoverished farmboy who could barely dictate a coherent letter wrote the Book of Mormon when even His family knew that it was beyond His skills? Not only that, but we are supposed to think that he somehow managed to get 11 other witnesses to testify to that record, and to get them to uphold their testimonies at the cost of their lives or after they had fallen out with Joseph. We are supposed to believe that these men gave up social and political standing in their communities for a testimony they knew was false?

Look at Oliver Cowdery. He was the Second Elder of the Church. He helped translate the Book of Mormon. He was present when the Aaronic and Melchesidek Priesthood was restored. He was there when Elijah came and restored the sealing keys. Yet, after having a disagreement with Joseph and leaving the Church, he still testified that He saw these things. He could have been the Governor of Wisconsin, but lost the race because he wouldnt deny that He had witnessed the angel and the plates or any of the other experiences. He wrote private letters to others discussing these things as though they really happened long after he left the Church and recieved no benefit for it. He eventually resubmitted himself to baptism despite knowing he wouldn't have the same position and authority in the Church. Does this sound like a man who was lying? And if he wasnt lying how the heck did anyone convince him that he actually saw what He saw? And this is a brief summary of Oliver's life and story. And there are still 10 other witnesses, some of who were martyred for their faith.

You can't explain it. No one can. But we are simply supposed to discount it because it's absurd. What is so absurd about the ministering of angels? Why is it absurd that God speaks or that He continues His work in the last days to prepare for His return?

Is there any age of the world where the need for God to speak and to act is greater than it is this day? Can anyone deny how pervasive wickedness in the world? Can anyone deny the attrocious acts that man does? Or that we have the capacity to destroy our entire race?

The only real difference between us is that you say you believe the Bible, but you don't understand it. Because the Bible points to coming to God and learning for ourselves. It doesn't make the claim that it's all there is. In fact, There are verses that say the exact opposite.



Does that sound like it contains all there is? Sounds like the exact opposite to me.

Peter and Paul even admits there was alot that the people werent ready for and that they didnt teach them:

1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,

2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: (1 Peter 2:1-2)

Here we have 3 separate places in the scriptures where the Apostles tell the people they are teaching them the milk of the Gospel and that they need to do this to grow before they reach the meat. We also have Christ's own words:

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. (Matthew 13:10-12)

If we follow Christ, we are to know the Mysteries of the Kingdom. And the more we recieve, the more we will be given.

And you think the Bible is all the knowledge God has for man? Seriously? I've god 3 other volumes of scriptures and I still don't think I have everything God has for man. In fact, Im quote confident that there are many great and important things that God hasnt revealed to me yet because I am not prepared for them.

This turned out to me alot longer than I expected. But I seriously don't understand why you think that God has changed and stopped speaking. I don't know why you think the Bible says everything when it specifically states that it doesn't. I don't know why people have such a hard time letting God and letting God teach them more. I dont even know why I have that trouble. But I just have hope that someday we all will let go and learn.

Avatar: Respectfully........I understand what your saying, but putting the Holy Spirit ahead of scripture, and not validating it's message against scripture is running the possibility of going astray from God's will.

Faith or belief is engendered in us because we first hear or read the God-inspired scriptures from lay-Christians, preachers, or even just picking up a Gideon bible in a motel and thumbing through the pages.

So our hearts are "pricked" with whatever the H.S. sees fit to do in us after receiving some God-inspired biblically accurate message. Thence repentance might follow, leading to a cry for salvation(help) to that one who inspired those convicting words to us(God/Christ).

When we depend solely on the H.S. for guidance without validating what we "perceive" to be from the H.S. we are indeed walking on "shakey" ground that can lead to error.

Avatar: Remember than even when the Apostle Paul spoke to the Bereans, they didn't receive his words without going to the scriptures and making sure he/Paul wasn't bringing and incorrect or error'd message to them.

What was Paul's response to the Bereans doing this? Did Paul feel rejected as Christ's apostle? Was Paul affronted by this Berean action? Far from it; in fact Paul "commended them".

Paul said and many other Apostles and prophets.............that we must "test" the words of those that claim to be "mouth pieces" for God.
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Again Respectfully Avatar: When persons of your church come to my door and tell me this or that about God or Christ, or even the H.S., or even about when to pray about something...........If I communicate to them that I want to check the bible to make sure that is what I should do, I immediately hit a "log jam" with them. I am informed that the bible isn't necessary to "validate" but should "just pray" and ask God if what ever message your church representatives have brought to me is correct or incorrect.

This contradicts what I've clearly read in the epistles of the bible.

Everytime a prophet in the OT was condemned or identified by the people or God directly as in error, or a false prophet, it was inconjunction with God's mandates to man.

So the 12 apostles of God that go back to Jesus' time were intrusted both with orally, and by written word......letting all future generations know the "will" of God, and the gospel of Jesus Christ as the salvation of humanity.

And because God is "omnipotent"..........That means almighty.........i.e. He can't be thwarted from doing what He intendes to do........we have this beautiful piece called the Holy Bible..........To this day being on the best sellers list above all other authored books of the past or present.

Again, the Dead Sea scrolls that are roughly 2,000 years old contain portions or complete books of the bible, except for the book of Ruth.

The Isaiah scroll is complete, and has been compared to are present day recognized translations and has shown that these present day bibles translations are "dead on".

Now that is 2,000 years of copying/scribing/retranslating from language to language, and no errors!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What does that say about our present day bibles??????? It says that the God of Moses, Abraham, Peter, Martin Luther, and 21st century man is still accurate, and excellent for teaching, reproof, edification, etc.....

Christ said on the cross, it is finished. upon His death, the veil that guarded the Holy of Holies from sinful man was rent in two.

This again was no accident. The ripped-in-two veil was God's message that His Son's life had allowed access to Him by sinful man through His Son's life's offering of flesh and blood in our sinful place.

As said clearly in Hebrews, Jesus is now our advocate before the Father. He has bridged the vast canyon between us and our Maker, that started back in Eden fall.
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So Respectfully Avatar: We get back to the H.S. versus scripture.

There is an old saying about the donkey and the cart. The cart goes nowhere without the donkey. So goes our faith as Christians. If we depend solely on dreams, burning bosoms, feelings, visions in order to "validate" what is the "will of God", we are in putting the cart ahead of the donkey, or leaving the donkey out of the scenario totally.

Avatar: Jesus clearly lays out in the book of John, what the H.S.'s responsiblity will be when He/Jesus ascends to heaven and sends Him/H.S. in His stead. Jesus said that the H.S. will be a "tutor", that will help the believer/Christian to understand the scriptures that are their and our guide to the life of the believer.

Since the scriptures are authored or inspired by God, they must be interpreted, or understood Spiritually too.

This is why the non-Christian when they read the bible will in most cases lay it down after a few minutes of labored reading. Without the indwelling H.S. in the reader's soul, the bible is just a "good" book, or an accumulation of historical data, and often "pooh pooh'd" as non-relevant.

What the Mormon missionary at my or anyone's door should incourage, is this; "Please pray about what we've said, but in conjunction with that, look in your KJV, NASB, NIV, bible and find/see if what we've told you about our church and our beliefs are confirmed or not by the Word of God.".

The whole dividing point between biblical Christianity and the LDS faith boils down to "authority" of scripture. Authority of scripture(the bible).

Also, one must study the life of the messenger........The LDS faith must put up their Apostles, and especially their founder's life against the lives of Christ's 12 apostles(Judas is no longer the 12th, but Paul became the replacement/12th on his way to Damascus, Syria).

Which people stand the test of time..........Christ's 12 or the LDS founder and their apostles that followed.

The inspired statements of the LDS apostles, as well as the Journal of Discourses, the "Pearl of Great Price" must be put up against the bible that has been proven to be accurate though disputed by Mormon scholars alone.

We must also think about the "nature" of God. How powerful is He?

Which belief system, LDS faith or biblical/Christian faith projects the accurate/legitimate character, of God?

As Author Josh Macdowell's book, "Evidence Demands A Verdict", we must unbiasedly look at the evidences, and the character of those who represent both the early church and O.T. times and put them against those who represent the founding peoples of the LDS/Mormon faith.

 

[Avatar4321]

by the way, since our bumper's been slacking lately, Bump

 

[Samson]

by the way, since our bumper's been slacking lately, Bump

Yeah this oughta rake in those July Membership $$$$



Fuck, if I didn't know any better, I'd see this crappy thread and run.

 

[Truthspeaker]

by the way, since our bumper's been slacking lately, Bump

Yeah this oughta rake in those July Membership $$$$



Fuck, if I didn't know any better, I'd see this crappy thread and run.

Then the quality of membership would be doubled. Too bad you didn't run. I have been much remiss lately but I just don't have the time these days to scour through all of 8-ball's ramblings. Nonetheless, I will do it sometime this week.

 

[Hister]

Is it true that Joseph Smith liked little boys? I heard that somewhere...

 

[HUGGY]

by the way, since our bumper's been slacking lately, Bump

Yeah this oughta rake in those July Membership $$$$



Fuck, if I didn't know any better, I'd see this crappy thread and run.

Then the quality of membership would be doubled. Too bad you didn't run. I have been much remiss lately but I just don't have the time these days to scour through all of 8-ball's ramblings. Nonetheless, I will do it sometime this week.

REMISS?????? You've been in a damn coma.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Is it true that Joseph Smith liked little boys? I heard that somewhere...

Nah, he had a fascination for the souls of the young domestic maids in his wife's employ. Continually.

 

[Liability]

bumpity bumpity bump.

Another long overdue bumpage takes its place.

A bit untimely? Yes.

But better late than never.

Bump.

 

[Hister]

Do you have to be somewhat of a retard to be a mormon? It's not like anyone of them has ever split the atom or anything...

 

[JakeStarkey]

Do you have to be somewhat of a retard to be a mormon? It's not like anyone of them has ever split the atom or anything...

Hister, go study scientific discovery and improvements by the LDS. Your comment was ignorant of the actual facts.