The Truth about Mormons

[Truthspeaker]

The word "undergarment" or just "garment" has a distinctive meaning to Latter-day Saints. The white undergarment worn by those members who have received the ordinance of the temple Endowment is a ceremonial one. All adults who enter the temple are required to wear it. In mormon temples, men and women who receive priesthood ordinances wear this undergarment and other priestly robes. The garment is worn at all times, but the robes are worn only in the temple. Having made covenants of righteousness, the members wear the garment under their regular clothing for the rest of their lives, day and night, partially to remind them of the sacred covenants they have made with God.

My my... how articulate you just became... Or perhaps a copy and paste job?

 

[Truthspeaker]

I will never understand why people are obsessed with our underwear.

I only posted about the underwear being that the OP denied that that existed; or was unaware. HIS QUOTE: "What magical mystery panties? We believe in no such thing... That's why I don't believe you ever were a member of our church."


I do not know of anyone who is obcessed other than possibly the wearer? I found when I was introduced to the idea, that was a 'deal breaker" no one gets to pick out my panties but me.. Ohh also I remember I was told I had to be re-babtised. Apparently the one that I had in the Lutheran church wasn't good enough; or maybe it wore out, just didn't take right?

no.... I denied the existence of so called "magical mystery panties." Not the existence of our sacred undergarments which you seem to have a keen interest in.

and yes, we believe that unless you were properly baptized by the priesthood of God, all other baptisms are not valid in the eyes of God. God appreciates the intent behind someone's baptism but only recognizes his authorized way. That's why Jesus went out of his way to be baptized by a proper priesthood holder in John.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Something about getting your own planet when you die?

Seriously, I was just watching a thing on Jim Jones. What the hell is the difference, a cult is a cult.

Jim Jones was a communist.

Well just think about it okay... even if it is crazy... how much crazier is it to believe you're going to live forever after this life any way?

If you do believe you're going to live forever, why doesn't it make sense that eventually after a really long time, your Father, in heaven, would teach you everything he knows and show you how to do what he does and have what he has...
So really if you're gonna live forever anyway, why wouldn't an intelligent human being continue to progress... Capeesh?

 

[Truthspeaker]

Something about getting your own planet when you die?

Seriously, I was just watching a thing on Jim Jones. What the hell is the difference, a cult is a cult.

Jim Jones was a communist.

JJ was a communitarian, just as was Joseph Smith, Lyman Wight, George Miller, and other early Mormon leaders. JJ was also a socio-pathic murderous scumbag. Before you start pumping hot air, friend, understand the Law of Tithing in Missouri required the property of members to be consecrated to the Bishop then returned as part of a stewardship. If a person left the church, he lost his property.

Please don't show us that you don't understand this anymore than you do Mosiah 4.

Welcome back Jakey...
Well with Joseph Smith the difference is he was not profitting, nor taking advantage of the system and one other detail.... He was inspired of God and the others weren't.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Jim Jones was a communist.

JJ was a communitarian, just as was Joseph Smith, Lyman Wight, George Miller, and other early Mormon leaders. JJ was also a socio-pathic murderous scumbag. Before you start pumping hot air, friend, understand the Law of Tithing in Missouri required the property of members to be consecrated to the Bishop then returned as part of a stewardship. If a person left the church, he lost his property.

Please don't show us that you don't understand this anymore than you do Mosiah 4.

Welcome back Jakey...
Well with Joseph Smith the difference is he was not profitting, nor taking advantage of the system and one other detail.... He was inspired of God and the others weren't.

You have a right to your opinion, and you have learned somewhat to be fair to the facts. But, yeah, JS was profiting: check the church books, but, really, that was no big deal in Nauvoo, I think. He and others sure got the boot economically and physically before that.

 

[Avatar4321]

Something about getting your own planet when you die?

Seriously, I was just watching a thing on Jim Jones. What the hell is the difference, a cult is a cult.

Jim Jones was a communist.

JJ was a communitarian, just as was Joseph Smith, Lyman Wight, George Miller, and other early Mormon leaders. JJ was also a socio-pathic murderous scumbag. Before you start pumping hot air, friend, understand the Law of Tithing in Missouri required the property of members to be consecrated to the Bishop then returned as part of a stewardship. If a person left the church, he lost his property.

Please don't show us that you don't understand this anymore than you do Mosiah 4.

Actually, no if the person left the Church the property that he had stewardship over was his.

And I've demonstrated multiple times that I understand Mosiah 4. It's not my fault you seem to think that telling people about their duties to minister to others means they are obligated to support a big government to do that.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Jim Jones was a communist.

JJ was a communitarian, just as was Joseph Smith, Lyman Wight, George Miller, and other early Mormon leaders. JJ was also a socio-pathic murderous scumbag. Before you start pumping hot air, friend, understand the Law of Tithing in Missouri required the property of members to be consecrated to the Bishop then returned as part of a stewardship. If a person left the church, he lost his property.

Please don't show us that you don't understand this anymore than you do Mosiah 4.

Actually, no if the person left the Church the property that he had stewardship over was his.

And I've demonstrated multiple times that I understand Mosiah 4. It's not my fault you seem to think that telling people about their duties to minister to others means they are obligated to support a big government to do that.

Actually, you are wrong. Phelps, Whitmer, Cowdery, etc., were excommunmicated for selling their property without church approval.

Actually, you are the one who is skiring that King Benjamin's government was a theodemocracy, and his preaching was law unto his followers, just as was Joseph Smith's.

You are out of step and or in denial of your own scriptures and church history.

 

[Avatar4321]

Im not familiar with the Counts of Phelps and Whitmer. But I know Cowdery was excommunicated for "forsaking the ministry".

When property was deeded to you, it was yours. If you left the Church, you kept the property. That's the way it's always been.

As for King Benjamin, we've rehashed this dozens of times. At no point did he ever advocate handing money over to him so that he as the king could administer to the needs of others. In fact, this activity of taxing the people to take care of others was explicitely condemned as one of the evil practices of King Noah. Your attempt to somehow justify legalized robbery, especially when the scriptures you site clearly speak against it and how all Robbers are condemned in the Book of Mormon as the most evil people in their society lacks any credibility.

King Benjamin, like all disciples of Christ, taught the people to provide charity and service to those they meet in need in their own lives. Those who follow the Lord have always been taught to give willingly and generously. Not to rely on the government to do so.

I don't know why you can't see this. The scriptures are very clear in this regard.

 

[Avatar4321]

In memory of the Martyrdom of Joseph Smith Jr and his brother Hyrum Smith who were murdered at around this time 147 years ago, I wanted to share the memorial written my John Tyler who witnessed the bloodshed.

Martyrdom of Joseph and Hyrum Smith

 

[JakeStarkey]

Avatar is narrowing the argument that the King, the rule of the government and whom the people must obey, did not "say" "give me your money for the poor." Let's remind Avatar what exactly was said: "MOSIAH 4:16. And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish."

There was no choice in this. The King said, in effect, that Jake and Truth and Avatar would take care of the poor. No ifs, ands, or buts. Want to bet this was not voluntary?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Follow the links below for the trials.

Journal, March–September 1838 - SummaryBut in neither Missouri nor Ohio did events unfold as expected. ... counselors John Whitmer and William W. Phelps of the proceeds from the sale of property .... Cowdery's trial seems to have been the motivating factor for transcribing ...
josephsmithpapers.org/.../journal-march–september-1838 - Cached
Quest for Refuge – 05 « The Signature Books LibraryIn the eyes of the high council in Far West the sale of property in Independence ... of $2000 in personal contributions given by Phelps and Whitmer, ..... the turning point in Mormon-Gentile relations in western Missouri.81 Smith ..... and a sheriff went to Far West to bring Joseph Smith and Lyman Wight to trial. ...
signaturebookslibrary.org/?p=5342 - Cached
Church History in the Fulness of Times Institute Student Manual ...The Prophet Joseph and those who accompanied him to Missouri in the summer of ... Seven high priests—Oliver Cowdery, William W. Phelps, John Whitmer, .... that all “Gentiles” (non-Mormons) would be cut off when the millennial ... Some of the old settlers were selling their property to the Mormons and moving away. ...
institute.lds.org/manual/church-history-institute.../chft-11-15-11.asp - Cached
Church History in the Fulness of Times Institute Student Manual ...The members in northern Missouri were already establishing new headquarters ...
institute.lds.org/manual/church-history-institute.../chft-11-15-15.asp - Cached
Show more results from lds.org1838: Joseph Smith in Northern Missouri | Religious Studies CenterIn 1836, using Church funds, W. W. Phelps and John Whitmer, ... [14] The second elder also became partner with the Missouri presidency in selling property in ... On May 11 a trial was held for McLellin wherein he stated he had no ...
rsc.byu.edu/archived/joseph.../1838-joseph-smith-northern-missouri - Cached
Book of John WhitmerNot many days after my brethren, Oliver Cowdery, Peter Whitmer, Jr., ... of the gospel of Jesus Christ, first unto the Gentiles and then unto the Jews. .... Therefore they would take each other's clothes and other property and use it ..... The Church at Thompson made all possible haste to leave for Missouri, ...
Book of John Whitmer - Cached - Similar
[PDF] A Community Abandoned: W. W. Phelps' 1839 Letter to Sally Waterman ...File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
by AL Baugh - Related articles
the Church in Missouri, with William and John Whitmer as counselors.2 ... dency in selling property in Jackson County contrary to the revelations and ... It is not known whether this trial constituted his excommunication, but his ...
http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...itesfoundation.org/.../nj.../NJ10.2_Baugh.pdf - Similar
Church History ch 11-15The Prophet Joseph and those who accompanied him to Missouri in the summer of ... Seven high priests—Oliver Cowdery, William W. Phelps, John Whitmer, .... that all “Gentiles” (non-Mormons) would be cut off when the millennial ... Some of the old settlers were selling their property to the Mormons and moving away. ...
Church History ch 11-15 - Cached - Similar
1838 Senate Document No. 189: Testimony on the Trial of Joseph SmithAug 6, 2006 – 43 W. W. Phelps' Testimony; (under construction) ... the Fifth Judicial District of the State of Missouri, on the Trial of Joseph Smith, .... a captain who applied to a Dutchman to purchase potatoes, who refused to sell. ..... Oliver Cowdery stole the property, conveyed it to John Whitmer, and John ...
olivercowdery.com/smithhome/1838Sent.htm - Cached - Similar
Sidney Gilbert - Mormonism, The Mormon Church, Beliefs, & Religion ...Sep 4, 2010 – Gilbert moved to Independence, Missouri, and he operated a store there ... W. W. Phelps, Edward Partridge, John Corrill, John Whitmer, ... of Independence should not sell the property they owned there, but that they should retain it ... rather die than go forth and preach the gospel to the Gentiles. ...
www.mormonwiki.com/Sid

 

[HUGGY]

Avatar is narrowing the argument that the King, the rule of the government and whom the people must obey, did not "say" "give me your money for the poor." Let's remind Avatar what exactly was said: "MOSIAH 4:16. And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish."

There was no choice in this. The King said, in effect, that Jake and Truth and Avatar would take care of the poor. No ifs, ands, or buts. Want to bet this was not voluntary?

And...this is why we can never have a Morman POTUS. He will be obligated to give this "property" to the Church of Latter Day Saints.

There is no such thing as a secular Morman.

 

[Avatar4321]

I don't know why you have such a difficult time understanding the difference between government forceably taking money from the people to give to others and individuals ministering to others and lifting up others. You are the only one I know who has ever read that passage to mean that God wants the government to "Redistribute wealth".

Individuals have the obligation to serve their fellow man. We do have the obligation to lift the poor. We are to succor the needy.

The Lord doesn't force people. He wants a willing mind and a willing heart. Why is that so difficult to understand?

 

[Avatar4321]

Avatar is narrowing the argument that the King, the rule of the government and whom the people must obey, did not "say" "give me your money for the poor." Let's remind Avatar what exactly was said: "MOSIAH 4:16. And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish."

There was no choice in this. The King said, in effect, that Jake and Truth and Avatar would take care of the poor. No ifs, ands, or buts. Want to bet this was not voluntary?

And...this is why we can never have a Morman POTUS. He will be obligated to give this "property" to the Church of Latter Day Saints.

There is no such thing as a secular Morman.

No there aren't secular mormons. But your conclusion is rather obsurd. What would it matter if a Mormon President gave all his property to the Church? That wouldnt affect his role as President or anything he does for the nation. Your conclusion doesn't follow any sort of logic here.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Avatar is narrowing the argument that the King, the rule of the government and whom the people must obey, did not "say" "give me your money for the poor." Let's remind Avatar what exactly was said: "MOSIAH 4:16. And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish."

There was no choice in this. The King said, in effect, that Jake and Truth and Avatar would take care of the poor. No ifs, ands, or buts. Want to bet this was not voluntary?

And...this is why we can never have a Morman POTUS. He will be obligated to give this "property" to the Church of Latter Day Saints.

There is no such thing as a secular Morman.

No there aren't secular mormons. But your conclusion is rather obsurd. What would it matter if a Mormon President gave all his property to the Church? That wouldnt affect his role as President or anything he does for the nation. Your conclusion doesn't follow any sort of logic here.

I agree with you. And you need to follow the logic of Mosiah 4 and the links I gave you above. Your interp economically of Mormon scripture and doctrine is heretical (that means "in error").

 

[Avatar4321]

Jake, I know you think I'm wrong But there is nothing in the Gospel or the scriptures that teaches that the responsibility to take care of the poor and afflicted should be taken care of by the government. It's the responsibilities of individuals to minister to those around them and they must do so voluntarily or it's pointless.

In fact, it speaks nothing but evil for overburdening the people with taxes and Robbing the people through political force.

You can claim otherwise all you want. But you aren't right about it.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You are partially right, but since King Benjamin was the head of government and head of church, yes, to take care of the poor and the sick and the ill and the orphan is indeed part of your scriptures by individual, by church, and by government. In modern days, theodemocracy fuses church and goveernment. Your church would practice theodemocracy openly if it could. So would many churches. Simple fact.

 

[Zona]

is it true they actually believe they will get their own planet when they die? Seriously?

Go beck! Please.

 

[BentWingedAngel]

Jake, I know you think I'm wrong But there is nothing in the Gospel or the scriptures that teaches that the responsibility to take care of the poor and afflicted should be taken care of by the government. It's the responsibilities of individuals to minister to those around them and they must do so voluntarily or it's pointless.

In fact, it speaks nothing but evil for overburdening the people with taxes and Robbing the people through political force.

You can claim otherwise all you want. But you aren't right about it.

So the gospels leave no doubt that Jesus taught his followers not only in words, but by example, to give to the government any taxes that are owed.

In Romans 13:1, Paul brings further clarification to this concept, along with an even broader responsibility to Christians:

"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God." (NIV)
Therefore, we can conclude from this verse, if we don't pay taxes we are rebelling against the authorities established by God.
Romans 13:2 gives this warning:

"Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves." (NIV)
And finally, regarding the paying of taxes, Paul couldn't make it any clearer in Romans 13:5-7:

Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. (NIV)

 

[Avatar4321]

is it true they actually believe they will get their own planet when they die? Seriously?

Go beck! Please.

if you'd like to know, you can find out for yourself. Feel free to read the Book of Mormon. You can order one for free.