The Truth about Mormons

[Truthspeaker]

Oh, come on, the guy fled the jurisdiction more often than not. That's what he did in NY when he was convicted on the Gold Selling Scandal and in Ohio after the Kirkland "anti-Bank" scam, and in Missouri when his Danites tried to steal local elections. So the fine folks in Navou, IL figured they just shoot him.

Fled from jurisdiction? That statement doesn't even make sense. I think you're trying to say that he fled from justice... Ok assuming that's what you are trying to say, you're still wrong... He knew he could have run and escaped the trial in Carthage (not Nauvoo), but he knew it was best to stand up to the charges again as he always had. He even publicly proclaimed that he was going to be killed this time by doing so. That's pretty remarkable that a man is willing to die rather than flee. His final prophecy was that he would be murdered in cold blood and it came true.

As to your feigned conviction that you say he was convicted of, you better link up if you're going to be taken seriously. Historians, who have a lot more credibility than USMB trolls, have shown Joseph's record to be clear of conviction.
But again, conviction in a kangaroo court means nothing anyway. And another piece of evidence that shows you talking loudly out of your pet's privates, is that the people of Nauvoo weren't the ones who shot him. It was the mob at Carthage which was gathered from many different places aside from Carthage. Again... learn knowledge.

Well, I don't think Jesus actually ever existed, I think he was made up. But technically, yeah, Jesus was completely guilty of violating the Mosiac Law and challenging the authority of the priesthood. (In a fictional way, of course.) People were killed all through the bible for doing a lot less than Jesus did.

Well it's clear to me that you will simply not believe anything. You will only consent to it if you see it with your own blurry eyes.

And even then you won't subscribe to it if you don't like it. Jesus could come and visit your house tomorrow and you wouldn't give a rip one way or the other.

"Made up", hah, for someone who claims to adhere to "serious scholars" you're really fighting them on this one.

Out of curiousity, how much pornography do you watch each day?

All of us Americans with a lick of common sense who haven't been brainwashed like you have, apparenlty.

Ok so since you and all the rest of America- who you claim agrees with you and has all the common sense on copyright- believes we're brainwashed, and deluded idiots, why would you waste your time arguing with an idiot.




That's like harrassing a retarded person and calling him slow... It only makes you look worse than the people you're making fun of.

So, oh wise one... why would you spend your valuable time arguing with a person who hasn't even a lick of sense like me?
Interesting because you simply can't stand that what we have could help you be a better person but you insist on resisting and attacking that which you do not understand. And because our religion destroys your craft of idolatry and laziness, you feel you need to try and debunk it...

So if we're so crazy, why waste your time at all? Because you're really not interested in truth but you're just a full blown, 12 foot tall Lord of the Rings Troll.

Come on, man, serious scholars know Mormonism was the 19th century version of Scientology. you avoided the whole point about Kinderhook and the Abraham Papyrus, both of which Smith said were genuine, but later debunked by serious science. So I guess I have to be dubious about the Golden Tablets, which no one but Smith Saw, since he's already 0-2.

That's a pretty low blow, except we've grown and grown much more than Scientology and our doctrine is much stronger. Iron clad in fact. Any problems with our doctrine? Of course you have but you don't have any ammo to attack it.. Only phony and feeble attempts to slander the first president of our church. poor you.

One thing you'll learn about me is that after more than two years on this thread, I don't dodge any issues. The Kinderhook plates were presented to Smith and some of the other leaders of our church and were fabricated. The guys who somehow had the time to fabricate plates with egyptian heiroglyphs on them in an attempt to make our leaders look bad, effectively each became "that guy" who wastes his time trolling around against other's religions. They just didn't have internet blogs to troll around on. So naturally Smith and the others were interested from the start since they had seen a legitimate ancient document already and were eager for more. So Smith started translating the Kinderhook plates out of his curiousity but never had the time to finish and find out the plates were fraudulent because he had more important things to do and everyone was trying to kill him and those "fine people" you spoke of succeeded before he could get the word out that those plates were fraudulent. Big deal.. I don't see your point. Was your point that he was a flawed individual? Of course he was. He made mistakes along the way just like all of us and committed sins just like the rest of us. But that doesn't mean he wasn't a prophet.
And the Abraham Papyrii were not entirely recovered either but those have not been debunked as you somehow claim.. again link up.

Again, Smith was marrying girls as young as 14. So did Brigham Young. Not to mention in Smith's case, IT WAS AGAINST THE LAW.

1. The ages of the girls are speculatory.
2. The age of consent was not set in those times like it is today at 18.
3. Cultures were entirely different among women as most of them primarily wanted to be wives as soon as possible.
4. What law are you referring to? Our modern day law of 18? Sure but that law didn't exist back then.
5. You have no understanding about the situation. His wives were consenting of their own accord and were all of the proper age for the time.
6. For thousands of years women were considered women much earlier in their lives and it wasn't until the 20th century that 18 became the magic number. Ever watch any Disney Movies? Most of the princesses who were married were announced as 16 years old even as recently as 1990 with The Little Mermaid. Society didn't seem to have a problem with a 16 year old getting married. Guess what happens when you get married? You have sex! I bet you probably love that movie too. So does that mean that you and Disney both support sex with minors? I thought it was funny when we watched Tangled recently and the princess' age was bumped up to 18 now that it's 2011. Presentism.

On the whole issue of polygamy, yeah, I guess it's okay, in societies where women are second class citizens. I'm glad I don't live in one of those.

If women are forced into it then they are being treated like second class citizens. In Joseph's case they were not.

Actually, if you read the bible

Funny you should say that.. cuz I kinda do it all the time. how bout you?

Abraham and Moses were intolerant jerkwads, too. Heck, you don't think Isaac was traumatized after that whole fake out sacrifice thing? You pull that kind of stuff today, DCFS would be on you like white on rice. And Moses couldn't go five minutes without trying to genocide someone. (Can you use Genocide as a verb? Heck, I just did. Deal with it, baby.)

If God didn't command Abraham and Moses to do what they did, then they would have to be considered dictators on a Hitler scale, so either they were prophets under God's direction and God is to blame for those deaths, or they were tyrants. My view is the former and God does things for his own reasons which I try to understand the wisdom in his actions rather than why God is a bad God. God does things which are often unpopular because he see's what we do not see. But that's hard for someone like you to hear because you think you have it all figured out and that no one knows better than you so it's impossible for there to be a God at all... Because that very God would have to be smarter than you.

 

[Truthspeaker]

What I know about LDS is that money poured in from Utah to California to defeat marriage equality.

I wish LDS in Utah would leave California alone.

Welcome back Sky... I hope we don't have to go over this discussion again. I'm satisfied we covered it at length with you back in 08.

 

[Monnagonna]

Truth, if the Abraham papyrii have never been found, then there's nothing to debunk, the papirii can only be a theory, not fact.

You admit Jo Smith was flawed? Once someone lies once, you can't believe anything they say after that. Especially when they're a serial liar to start with.

And you have actual proof that Jesus existed? I'd be interested in that.

 

[waltky]

Granny says dat'll teach him not to be pimpin' young ladies to old geezers...

Polygamist leader Warren Jeffs gets life in prison
Aug 09, 2011 - Polygamist leader Warren Jeffs has been sentenced to life in prison for sexually assaulting two underage followers he took as brides in what his church deemed "spiritual marriages."

The 55-year-old head of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints stood quietly as the decision of the Texas jury was read today, the Associated Press reports. Jeffs is the eighth FLDS man convicted since a raid of a ranch run by the church, which believes polygamy brings exaltation in heaven.

Jeffs was convicted last week. During the trial, prosecutors used DNA evidence to show Jeffs fathered a child with a 15-year-old and played an audio recording of what they said was him sexually assaulting a 12-year-old. "If the world knew what I was doing, they would hang me from the highest tree," Jeffs wrote in 2005, according to one of thousands of pages of notes seized along with the audio recordings from his Texas ranch. Jeffs, who had been a fugitive for years before his capture in 2006, has more than 10,000 followers who consider Jeffs to be God's spokesman on Earth.

FBI agent John Broadway testified that fathers who gave their young daughters to Jeffs were rewarded with young brides of their own. Girls who proved reluctant to have sex with Jeffs were sent away, according to excerpts from Jeffs' journals that prosecutors showed to the jury.

Jeffs claimed that his religious rights were being violated, a view that the prosecution quickly dismissed. "The evidence in this case shows that this isn't a prosecution of a people," prosecutor Eric Nichols said in his closing argument. "This is a prosecution to protect people."

Source

 

[Avatar4321]

People treat mormonism seriously? Never heard that one before. lol.

Then you should read more.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Truth, if the Abraham papyrii have never been found, then there's nothing to debunk, the papirii can only be a theory, not fact.

You admit Jo Smith was flawed? Once someone lies once, you can't believe anything they say after that. Especially when they're a serial liar to start with.

And you have actual proof that Jesus existed? I'd be interested in that.

Gonner,
The papyrii were found, they were mostly destroyed but there are still fragments remaining. Here.
Book of Abraham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and yes, of course, Smith was flawed... Who isn't? So then we should not have any leaders in this world? Is that what you're saying? Because they all can't be trusted? Ok so you would prefer pure anarchy? ok fine..

Now if he is guilty of one thing it's not lying. Any proof on your part that he did lie? link up

Now about proof of the existence of Jesus. I might define proof as one thing whereas you might define proof as video.
Testimonies of millions who have had the name passed down through nearly every religion i'm sure don't count in your book. The History Channel's productions and all the commentary of historians on their programs probably mean nothing to you either. Roman history mentions him. So I guess really there is no proof you would except other than a visitation right now, correct?

actually I really enjoyed this show when I watched it and from the blood and positioning of stains on the shroud of Turin they were able to reconstruct what they feel Jesus looked like at the time of his death. It's pretty gory but you'll probably really like that.
http://www.history.com/shows/the-real-face-of-jesus

you can download the show on itunes for 3.99

 

[Zona]

Its been a long time since I posted on this thread...but remember this...Glenn Beck is a fucking mormon. I think that says it all! lolololololol

 

[Zona]

Cults are funny.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Its been a long time since I posted on this thread...but remember this...Glenn Beck is a fucking mormon. I think that says it all! lolololololol

 

[Truthspeaker]

Granny says dat'll teach him not to be pimpin' young ladies to old geezers...

Polygamist leader Warren Jeffs gets life in prison
Aug 09, 2011 - Polygamist leader Warren Jeffs has been sentenced to life in prison for sexually assaulting two underage followers he took as brides in what his church deemed "spiritual marriages."

The 55-year-old head of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints stood quietly as the decision of the Texas jury was read today, the Associated Press reports. Jeffs is the eighth FLDS man convicted since a raid of a ranch run by the church, which believes polygamy brings exaltation in heaven.

Jeffs was convicted last week. During the trial, prosecutors used DNA evidence to show Jeffs fathered a child with a 15-year-old and played an audio recording of what they said was him sexually assaulting a 12-year-old. "If the world knew what I was doing, they would hang me from the highest tree," Jeffs wrote in 2005, according to one of thousands of pages of notes seized along with the audio recordings from his Texas ranch. Jeffs, who had been a fugitive for years before his capture in 2006, has more than 10,000 followers who consider Jeffs to be God's spokesman on Earth.

FBI agent John Broadway testified that fathers who gave their young daughters to Jeffs were rewarded with young brides of their own. Girls who proved reluctant to have sex with Jeffs were sent away, according to excerpts from Jeffs' journals that prosecutors showed to the jury.

Jeffs claimed that his religious rights were being violated, a view that the prosecution quickly dismissed. "The evidence in this case shows that this isn't a prosecution of a people," prosecutor Eric Nichols said in his closing argument. "This is a prosecution to protect people."

Source

 

[JoeB131]

Fled from jurisdiction? That statement doesn't even make sense. I think you're trying to say that he fled from justice... Ok assuming that's what you are trying to say, you're still wrong... He knew he could have run and escaped the trial in Carthage (not Nauvoo), but he knew it was best to stand up to the charges again as he always had. He even publicly proclaimed that he was going to be killed this time by doing so. That's pretty remarkable that a man is willing to die rather than flee. His final prophecy was that he would be murdered in cold blood and it came true.

Actually, he hid in the woods like a coward waiting for his militia to show up... and they didn't... Heh, heh, heh.. And then they shot him.

But again, conviction in a kangaroo court means nothing anyway. And another piece of evidence that shows you talking loudly out of your pet's privates, is that the people of Nauvoo weren't the ones who shot him. It was the mob at Carthage which was gathered from many different places aside from Carthage. Again... learn knowledge

Hey, you know the difference between Joseph Smith and David Koresh?

Original and Extra Crispy!!!!

Well it's clear to me that you will simply not believe anything. You will only consent to it if you see it with your own blurry eyes.

And even then you won't subscribe to it if you don't like it. Jesus could come and visit your house tomorrow and you wouldn't give a rip one way or the other.

"Made up", hah, for someone who claims to adhere to "serious scholars" you're really fighting them on this one.

No, I beleve in things that are rational and logical. If something sound plausible, I accept it. Sky Pixies and Wafer Zombies aren't plausible to me.

:Out of curiousity, how much pornography do you watch each day?

Why would you care? Frankly, I get tired of prudes trying to run my life.

So, oh wise one... why would you spend your valuable time arguing with a person who hasn't even a lick of sense like me?
Interesting because you simply can't stand that what we have could help you be a better person but you insist on resisting and attacking that which you do not understand. And because our religion destroys your craft of idolatry and laziness, you feel you need to try and debunk it...

Well, I would love nothing better than to throw a big fence around Utah and turn it into a cult deprogramming camp. But as long as you clowns are out there trying to establish your crazy theocracy in my country, I'll expose all your silly shit and laugh at it while I do it.

That's a pretty low blow, except we've grown and grown much more than Scientology and our doctrine is much stronger. Iron clad in fact. Any problems with our doctrine? Of course you have but you don't have any ammo to attack it.. Only phony and feeble attempts to slander the first president of our church. poor you.

It ain't slander if it's true, bunky. He made up a fake religion to screw teenage girls. Kind of like L. Ron Hubbard did. But at least L. Ron admitted that was what he was doing.

One thing you'll learn about me is that after more than two years on this thread, I don't dodge any issues.

Guy, if you are spending two years on one thread, you seriously need to get a life. Or maybe buy yourself some porn.

The Kinderhook plates were presented to Smith and some of the other leaders of our church and were fabricated. The guys who somehow had the time to fabricate plates with egyptian heiroglyphs on them in an attempt to make our leaders look bad, effectively each became "that guy" who wastes his time trolling around against other's religions. They just didn't have internet blogs to troll around on. So naturally Smith and the others were interested from the start since they had seen a legitimate ancient document already and were eager for more. So Smith started translating the Kinderhook plates out of his curiousity but never had the time to finish and find out the plates were fraudulent because he had more important things to do and everyone was trying to kill him and those "fine people" you spoke of succeeded before he could get the word out that those plates were fraudulent.

Smith claimed they were real...

I have seen 6 brass plates...covered with ancient characters of language containing from 30 to 40 on each side of the plates. Prest J. [Joseph Smith] has translated a portion and says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found and he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth.

Kinderhook plates - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

further, historians of your CHurch claimed their authenticity for years. It wasn't until 1981 that the Church finally admitted they were.

Big deal.. I don't see your point. Was your point that he was a flawed individual? Of course he was. He made mistakes along the way just like all of us and committed sins just like the rest of us. But that doesn't mean he wasn't a prophet.

Well, uh, that kind of means he was. I mean, if he was on God's Fav Five, that means he was talking to the Invisible Sky Pixie all the time. Which means God should have said to him, "Errrr, Joe, you neighbors created those plates to make you look dumb. And that Papyrus? That's a Pagan Funerary scroll."

And the Abraham Papyrii were not entirely recovered either but those have not been debunked as you somehow claim.. again link up.

Book of Abraham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some LDS scholars have argued that much of the original papyrus collection is missing,[73] but others have challenged this notion, contending that the majority of the papyri have been recovered.[74]

There is broad agreement that the recovered papyri are portions of the originals, partly based on the fact that they were pasted onto paper which had "drawings of a temple and maps of the Kirtland, Ohio area" on the back and an accompanying affidavit by Emma Smith, stating that they had been in the possession of Joseph Smith.[62]

And then we get into your tiresome attempt to excuse Smith's pedophilia by claiming that girls got married earlier back then. Yes, they did- to other teenagers, usually after a pregnancy. A man marrying a bunch of them was against the law because he was already married to someone else, and it was just downright creepy. Which is why his neighbors had the good sense to kill him rather than wasting a court's time.

Actually, if you read the bible

Funny you should say that.. cuz I kinda do it all the time. how bout you?

Sure, I do. When I need a good laugh.

If God didn't command Abraham and Moses to do what they did, then they would have to be considered dictators on a Hitler scale, so either they were prophets under God's direction and God is to blame for those deaths, or they were tyrants. My view is the former and God does things for his own reasons which I try to understand the wisdom in his actions rather than why God is a bad God. God does things which are often unpopular because he see's what we do not see. But that's hard for someone like you to hear because you think you have it all figured out and that no one knows better than you so it's impossible for there to be a God at all... Because that very God would have to be smarter than you.

Hitler thought God was commanding him, too. Hitler talked about how God wanted him to do all the terrible things he did.

The God of the Bible is a savage monster because he was made up by savages. Nothing more, nothing less. If there is a God, he certainly isn't that guy. A God with a 14 billion year plan to make a universe isn't going to care which bunch of ignorant bronze age goat herders are killing each other or whether someone is watching porn or not.

 

[JoeB131]

Here's something from an Ex-Mormon that pretty much nails it.

http://packham.n4m.org/nutshell.htm

If somebody should come around to you and say, very seriously, that:

God has been talking personally to him; and

he has an important message for YOU from GOD (even though you know that God has your address and phone number and could easily give you the message himself); and

the message is that God wants you to do whatever this guy says;

which includes giving this guy lots of money, time and energy to help him; and

if you do this, wonderful things will happen to you, but mostly after you're dead; and

God has told him all kinds of important stuff (but not how to cure AIDS, or cancer, or the common cold; or how to pick a stock that will double in a year; or how to pay off the national debt); and

It's OK for him to be married to 30 or 40 women at the same time (but it's not OK for YOU); and

You're not supposed to ask him any questions, but just trust him; and

If you do everything he says, he'll tell you the secret password and handshake that will get you into Heaven; and

Then, after you die and go to Heaven, you will organize and rule your own world and billions of your own spirit children (even though right now you can't even organize your own desk top, you hire somebody else to prepare your tax return and repair your carburetor, you have absolutely no interest in astronomy, quantum physics or advanced math, and you can't control the three kids you have);

If somebody tells you all this,

SHOULDN'T YOU BE A LITTLE BIT SUSPICIOUS?
Chances are pretty good that he is either a lunatic or a fraud, AND YOU SHOULD RUN LIKE HELL!

But this is Joseph Smith's story, in a nutshell.

 

[hipeter924]

Parting a sea, and making water that doesn't have oxygen isn't a more fantastical claim than magically transporting people and changing their DNA. So this is really Christians complaining about other's Christians not following the 'right' book, Mormons are alright; and they don't bomb abortion clinics.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Truthspeaker's defense of underage marriage in the 1840s to 1880s reflects a poor understanding of the psychology and sociology of marriage in America then. Joseph Smith had sex with underage girls, whose consent had nothing to do with its morality. TS's defense is exactly that of Warren Jeffs.

That defense is unacceptable and immoral.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Actually, he hid in the woods like a coward waiting for his militia to show up... and they didn't... Heh, heh, heh.. And then they shot him.

Fail. Check the record.

Hey, you know the difference between Joseph Smith and David Koresh?

Original and Extra Crispy!!!!

Why is it that whoever tends to disagree with Smith can't simply have a disagreement. They have to crack jokes as if they're so clever, yet juvenile. Grow up.

No, I beleve in things that are rational and logical. If something sound plausible, I accept it. Sky Pixies and Wafer Zombies aren't plausible to me.

Truth is stranger than fiction a lot of the time.

Why would you care? Frankly, I get tired of prudes trying to run my life.

Because porn ruins the spirit and damages the brain. I can tell you've engaged in plenty.

Well, I would love nothing better than to throw a big fence around Utah and turn it into a cult deprogramming camp. But as long as you clowns are out there trying to establish your crazy theocracy in my country, I'll expose all your silly shit and laugh at it while I do it.

Happy exposing. We'll see who's laughing in the end. At least we believe in something and you have no answers to life's questions which is why you're overly cynical as a defense mechanism.

It ain't slander if it's true, bunky. He made up a fake religion to screw teenage girls. Kind of like L. Ron Hubbard did. But at least L. Ron admitted that was what he was doing.

God bless America for giving us a country in which strange comments like yours are allowed to go public for the rest of our entertainment.

Guy, if you are spending two years on one thread, you seriously need to get a life. Or maybe buy yourself some porn.

I enjoy my life's purpose. I'm sorry that you don't have a purpose you choose to subscribe to other than trolling other's religions. That's a sad existence. And trust me, if I were to give myself to the dark side and watch porn, I wouldn't pay for it. There's enough free stuff out there but I guess there's plenty of suckers like you who still pony up.

Smith claimed they were real...

Sure he did, but he wasn't done examining them. He also wasn't operating as a prophet yet when it came to these plates. He was checking them out on his own. It's also important to remember he studied them with what he had learned of ancient languages and was seeking more information. He certainly hadn't finished a thorough examination of the plates.
He didn't use the divine method given to him to translate the Book of Mormon with the Urim and Thummim. Again this was a curiosity of his and not a revelation he claimed to receive. He read the words and interpreted what he saw on a superficial level not a supernatural level.

Well, uh, that kind of means he was. I mean, if he was on God's Fav Five, that means he was talking to the Invisible Sky Pixie all the time. Which means God should have said to him, "Errrr, Joe, you neighbors created those plates to make you look dumb. And that Papyrus? That's a Pagan Funerary scroll."

Well, uhh... no it doesn't... That's the conclusion you have drawn due to your instant skepticism and cynicism. I get that and that's ok. But God doesn't do everything for us. He never has. He wants us to be free to figure things out on our own for the most part. Had Joseph attempted a revelation on the subject or prayed about these fake plates, he would have no doubt received an answer. But he didn't consult God on this one. He was just checking it out on his own. That does happen you know. Prophets aren't puppets. They have their own lives.

And then we get into your tiresome attempt to excuse Smith's pedophilia by claiming that girls got married earlier back then. Yes, they did- to other teenagers, usually after a pregnancy.

Here's where you really fail in your research. We don't even have to go back to the 1800's we can look at the average marrying age by continent in 2011. It is legally set at 16 in North America countries, South American Countries, European Countries, Asian Countries, Australia and the islands. Many countries have very vague definitions of "proper age" meaning "puberty or physically ready for sex". Even our beloved US of A has a state called Mississippi which has a legal age of marriage at 15 with "parental consent".

Many of these countries have legal age of 18 but with "parental consent" in 2011 you can legally get married to a teenager in just about every country. In fact most of these "court consent" or "parental consent" situations require the male to be "at least 18". So you see how much time has really changed things? Not much but Pop culture would have you think that anyone in the world married to a girl less than the magical number of 18 is a pedophile demon. Get a grip... Expose yourself to the world and learn knowledge.

With what's going on in the world today alone, It's hardly fair to say that Joseph Smith was a monster hell bent on taking advantage of teenage girls.
Marriageable age - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A man marrying a bunch of them was against the law because he was already married to someone else, and it was just downright creepy.

Creepy to you because you have a preconceived 20th century bubble you're looking at and judging 19th century people by. You have no perspective. And check the record. It was not illegal at the time. It wasn't until 1890 that the US outlawed Polygamy. Why didn't they do it earlier I wonder if it was such a bad thing?

Which is why his neighbors had the good sense to kill him rather than wasting a court's time.

Yeah, drunken and angry mobsters painted black and storming a prison to overthrow law and order sure are people with good sense... I'm sure you would have painted yourself right along with them. Very revealing of your character.

Funny you should say that.. cuz I kinda do it all the time. how bout you?

Sure, I do. When I need a good laugh.

We'll see who's laughing at the last day.

Hitler thought God was commanding him, too. Hitler talked about how God wanted him to do all the terrible things he did.

I'm certain that Hitler didn't believe his own lies... He did however know how people could be controlled by religion so he knew that he could get away with atrocities by claiming he was doing God's will. He also knew the religious mindset of his people and how to tug at their heart strings. Don't believe for a second that he really believed he was doing God's work. He just said it to get the people to follow him. You should know better than that.

The God of the Bible is a savage monster because he was made up by savages. Nothing more, nothing less. If there is a God, he certainly isn't that guy. A God with a 14 billion year plan to make a universe isn't going to care which bunch of ignorant bronze age goat herders are killing each other or whether someone is watching porn or not.

How are you different from a "savage"? what do you mean when you say "savages"?
Why do you say that God is a savage monster?
Because he ordered the deaths of people you do not know? I think God would know if they deserved to die or not. That's why he's God. We shouldn't judge others or kill others because we are not perfect. But God knows what you don't know. Ever think of that?

 

[Truthspeaker]

If somebody should come around to you and say, very seriously, that:

God has been talking personally to him; and

he has an important message for YOU from GOD (even though you know that God has your address and phone number and could easily give you the message himself); and

the message is that God wants you to do whatever this guy says;

which includes giving this guy lots of money, time and energy to help him; and

if you do this, wonderful things will happen to you, but mostly after you're dead;

That's not what Joseph Smith ever said. His message was that "God spoke to me; and he will speak to you too if you want to find out for yourself." Joseph's message never asked for any money to be given to him personally, only the law of tithing as described in the Bible, which monies are clearly documented to have gone only and ever to the church as an organization and no clergyman. Absolutely God can give you the message Himself. His address and phone number can be found on your knees and on your closed eyelids through prayer. He's not going to come to you unless you come to Him and ask Him to be a part of your life. Also many blessings are promised in this life and not just the next.

and

God has told him all kinds of important stuff (but not how to cure AIDS, or cancer, or the common cold; or how to pick a stock that will double in a year; or how to pay off the national debt); and

How about more important things like how to properly behave in this life and help others achieve joy and avoid diseases like AIDS and how to properly deal with trials like cancer or financial difficulties?

It's OK for him to be married to 30 or 40 women at the same time (but it's not OK for YOU); and

That number is a little exaggerated but whether 2 wives or 200 it is still more than one and the number doesn't matter after 1. At the time there were certain people who were properly prepared for plural marriage while others weren't. It wasn't just for Joseph and wasn't just for all men either. Many circumstances necessitated these marriages. Among those reasons were persecution and providence.
Also Polygamy has, does and always will be a part of the next life. But it is also a thing governed by free will and choice so if you don't like it, you'll never be forced to do it, male or female. Ever thought of that? People are free to make choices in life.

You're not supposed to ask him any questions, but just trust him;

That's the biggest lie ever... Joseph Smith Jr, the Prophet of God, never, at any time... Ever, anywhere told people not to question him.. In fact he was proactive in the opposite standpoint. He told everyone to pray to God on their own and ask God, the source of all information if what he was saying was true. He invited all questions and encouraged as much questioning as possible. That's the only leader of any religion who has EVER EVER done that. Ponder that for a moment.

and

If you do everything he says, he'll tell you the secret password and handshake that will get you into Heaven; and

Then, after you die and go to Heaven, you will organize and rule your own world and billions of your own spirit children (even though right now you can't even organize your own desk top, you hire somebody else to prepare your tax return and repair your carburetor, you have absolutely no interest in astronomy, quantum physics or advanced math, and you can't control the three kids you have);

Here's to becoming universally better than we are now... I certainly would like that. You could do a lot worse in the next life.

If somebody tells you all this,

SHOULDN'T YOU BE A LITTLE BIT SUSPICIOUS?
Chances are pretty good that he is either a lunatic or a fraud, AND YOU SHOULD RUN LIKE HELL!

Sure you should ask questions. Weigh it out and decide for yourself. If you don't like it then don't subscribe to it. Just don't be afraid of information.

But this is Joseph Smith's story, in a nutshell.

No it's not. There's so much more to it. You may never know.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Truthspeaker's defense of underage marriage in the 1840s to 1880s reflects a poor understanding of the psychology and sociology of marriage in America then. Joseph Smith had sex with underage girls, whose consent had nothing to do with its morality. TS's defense is exactly that of Warren Jeffs.

That defense is unacceptable and immoral.

whoa whoa whoa!!!
Never compare me with that monster. Here's a guy who in 2011 is taking 12 to 14 year olds in plural marriage situations where there is no need for a male guardian in frontier life and these girls are neither widows or old enough to consent for themselves. He's also completely deluded and uses no logic in his arguments or scriptural foundation for his tyrannical behavior.
Compared to Joseph Smith who's variably reported 35 wives range from two at age 14, 0 at age 15, 3 at age 16 and 4 at age 17 and the rest over 18. Those wives who he married spiritually but were already married to other men in earthly terms never consummated their marriages with Joseph. This was 5 legally married women over age 20 who had a temple ceremony performed but not an earthly one.

Warren Jeffs has reportedly 70 wives with the youngest being at least 12 years old, all consummated and more than 20 reportedly under age 17. These are girls who are banned from leaving their society or even watching cartoons with talking animals, whereas Smith's wives were able to do as they pleased and the vast majority were well educated and opinionated women. Let's not compare a 14 year old hard working girl from the frontier landscape and era to a 12 year old girl who is a secluded prisoner in 2011 texas with modern technology and air conditioning who is entirely dependant upon Jeffs for any information. There is a big difference where Jeffs was a fugitive and now finally sentenced to life in prison where Joseph committed no crimes.

Now Jake as a believer in the Bible, how do you justify Mary being married to Joseph as a teenager? Reports are that she was anywhere from 12 to 15 at the time. Jewish standard custom was betrothal at age 12. How do you justify polygamy of many prophets in the Bible? The same rationale used to explain those relationships can be used for Smith and the early followers who were instructed to do it.
I'm very interested in your response? It's really time we start taking timelines in perspective.

 

[JoeB131]

Hey, you know the difference between Joseph Smith and David Koresh?

Original and Extra Crispy!!!!

Why is it that whoever tends to disagree with Smith can't simply have a disagreement. They have to crack jokes as if they're so clever, yet juvenile. Grow up.:

As long as you mutants are trying to impose your stupidity on the rest of us, I feel just fine mocking you.

Because porn ruins the spirit and damages the brain. I can tell you've engaged in plenty.

Not really. Not that there is anything wrong with it. Only prudes get upset, usually because they are insecure about their own sexuality.

Happy exposing. We'll see who's laughing in the end. At least we believe in something and you have no answers to life's questions which is why you're overly cynical as a defense mechanism.

Life doesn't have questions. You live, you die. That's pretty much it. That you live in fear of death to where you subscribe to whatever batshit crazy nonsense comes up just shows your own fear. I'd rather enjoy the time I have, as long as what I do doesn't hurt anyone.

Sure he did, but he wasn't done examining them. He also wasn't operating as a prophet yet when it came to these plates. He was checking them out on his own. It's also important to remember he studied them with what he had learned of ancient languages and was seeking more information. He certainly hadn't finished a thorough examination of the plates.
He didn't use the divine method given to him to translate the Book of Mormon with the Urim and Thummim. Again this was a curiosity of his and not a revelation he claimed to receive. He read the words and interpreted what he saw on a superficial level not a supernatural level.

But there were no words. His neighbors just carved some symbols of a language they didn't understand on some bronze plates. If he was even marginally fluent in "Reformed Egyptian" like he claimed he was, he'd know he was looking at gibberish.

Well, uhh... no it doesn't... That's the conclusion you have drawn due to your instant skepticism and cynicism. I get that and that's ok. But God doesn't do everything for us. He never has. He wants us to be free to figure things out on our own for the most part. Had Joseph attempted a revelation on the subject or prayed about these fake plates, he would have no doubt received an answer. But he didn't consult God on this one. He was just checking it out on his own. That does happen you know. Prophets aren't puppets. They have their own lives.

Or maybe he was making all the stuff up. I mean, we can go on all day about all the stuff he got wrong, all the places he failed as a prophet, like his claim that there were people living on the moon dressed like Quakers. And you Mormon Apologists do all sorts of handstands about why smith got that wrong or how he never said what people attributed to him or whatever. Or how the Nephite Civilization could have been what the Roman Civilization was in the Americas, and yet didn't leave ONE shred of Archeological evidence accepted by a non-Mormon Scholar. Heck, do I need to throw in the Salamander Letter just for fun?

But applying Occam's razor, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. The simplest explanation is that he was a two-bit hustler who made up a religion, and like Koresh and Jones and Hubbard and all the other hucksters who made up religions, started believing his own bullshit.

Creepy to you because you have a preconceived 20th century bubble you're looking at and judging 19th century people by. You have no perspective. And check the record. It was not illegal at the time. It wasn't until 1890 that the US outlawed Polygamy. Why didn't they do it earlier I wonder if it was such a bad thing?

In the State of IL, it was illegal in 1844. And honestly, 19th century people were creeped out by Smith, too. That's why the KILLED HIM.

I'm certain that Hitler didn't believe his own lies... He did however know how people could be controlled by religion so he knew that he could get away with atrocities by claiming he was doing God's will. He also knew the religious mindset of his people and how to tug at their heart strings. Don't believe for a second that he really believed he was doing God's work. He just said it to get the people to follow him. You should know better than that.

Well, of course, Hitler believed his own BS. If he didn't, he certainly wouldn't have gone as far as he did. A cynic never would have murdered millions of people in God's name if he didn't think God wanted them dead.

How are you different from a "savage"? what do you mean when you say "savages"?
Why do you say that God is a savage monster?

B

Where do I even start. (Hey, check out my "How I became an agnostic thread", that's a good place to start. I figured this BS out when I was 10.) This is a God who murders babies. Babies.

That's why he's God. We shouldn't judge others or kill others because we are not perfect. But God knows what you don't know. Ever think of that?

Your reasoning is circular. It's okay for God to kill because he's God, but God can tell you not to kill, unless of course, it's one of the times he tells you it's okay to kill, like killing gays or adulterers or people who don't believe what you believe. Then it's okay.

 

[Monnagonna]

Very entertaining watching Joe hand Truth his ass over and over. Keep it up!

 

[JakeStarkey]

Truthspeaker's defense of underage marriage in the 1840s to 1880s reflects a poor understanding of the psychology and sociology of marriage in America then. Joseph Smith had sex with underage girls, whose consent had nothing to do with its morality. TS's defense is exactly that of Warren Jeffs.

That defense is unacceptable and immoral.

whoa whoa whoa!!!
Never compare me with that monster. Here's a guy who in 2011 is taking 12 to 14 year olds in plural marriage situations where there is no need for a male guardian in frontier life and these girls are neither widows or old enough to consent for themselves. He's also completely deluded and uses no logic in his arguments or scriptural foundation for his tyrannical behavior.
Compared to Joseph Smith who's variably reported 35 wives range from two at age 14, 0 at age 15, 3 at age 16 and 4 at age 17 and the rest over 18. Those wives who he married spiritually but were already married to other men in earthly terms never consummated their marriages with Joseph. This was 5 legally married women over age 20 who had a temple ceremony performed but not an earthly one.

Warren Jeffs has reportedly 70 wives with the youngest being at least 12 years old, all consummated and more than 20 reportedly under age 17. These are girls who are banned from leaving their society or even watching cartoons with talking animals, whereas Smith's wives were able to do as they pleased and the vast majority were well educated and opinionated women. Let's not compare a 14 year old hard working girl from the frontier landscape and era to a 12 year old girl who is a secluded prisoner in 2011 texas with modern technology and air conditioning who is entirely dependant upon Jeffs for any information. There is a big difference where Jeffs was a fugitive and now finally sentenced to life in prison where Joseph committed no crimes.

Now Jake as a believer in the Bible, how do you justify Mary being married to Joseph as a teenager? Reports are that she was anywhere from 12 to 15 at the time. Jewish standard custom was betrothal at age 12. How do you justify polygamy of many prophets in the Bible? The same rationale used to explain those relationships can be used for Smith and the early followers who were instructed to do it.
I'm very interested in your response? It's really time we start taking timelines in perspective.

Perspective, yes, but your timelines are not in perspective.

Your deflection (Joseph and Mary) is 2,000 years out of date.

You have no evidence to indicate that JS's behavior was in line with normative behavior of older men and younger women. You better go look at the statistical averages of when men and women married in Illinois, Missouri, and Ohio in the 1830s and 1840s.

For a man in is older twenties and then thirties to mess around with young teenage girls, under the rube of plural marriage, is as foul then as it is now.