The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

[Foxfyre]

Irrelevant.

Do you know what was unusual about Thomas Jefferson's personal Bible? The guy who drafted and wrote the Declaration of Independence? I'm going to have to start charging you for giving you these mini-classes

They are going to believe what they were taught in Sunday School class.
Not what the facts are.
But it is fun watching them throw out generalizations and nothing ever specific.
Not one fact whatsoever to back up their claims.

I sat in a Sunday School class from the time I was two until I was out of college. Have either been in such classes or taught such classes most of the time since then. I benefitted from what I was taught. I have since rejected much of what I was taught when through further education or my own research, I found better information.

To think that the child in a Sunday School class is more brainwashed than a child tutored by somebody who looks on religion as you do and who preaches it every chance he gets is a bit disingenuous don't you think?

 

[Gadawg73]

So, you folks are claiming that American citizens got their rights from God?

Yes

How come God was a racist and left the black folk out?
Mighty white of him.

 

[Gadawg73]

Do you know what was unusual about Thomas Jefferson's personal Bible? The guy who drafted and wrote the Declaration of Independence? I'm going to have to start charging you for giving you these mini-classes

They are going to believe what they were taught in Sunday School class.
Not what the facts are.
But it is fun watching them throw out generalizations and nothing ever specific.
Not one fact whatsoever to back up their claims.

I sat in a Sunday School class from the time I was two until I was out of college. Have either been in such classes or taught such classes most of the time since then. I benefitted from what I was taught. I have since rejected much of what I was taught when through further education or my own research, I found better information.

To think that the child in a Sunday School class is more brainwashed than a child tutored by somebody who looks on religion as you do and who preaches it every chance he gets is a bit disingenuous don't you think?

Tell me how I look on religion.
And if GoBananas is a good bet at 10-1 at Calder in the 3rd race if this is a good day for you.

 

[bodecea]

Except for here, from the same people who keep calling Obama "Messiah", I would never even know who this Soros guy is.

It is not important that the sheep know the name of the shepherd.

Madcow fills your skull full of mush with the ideas she is directed by Soros to elucidate. What difference does it make whether you personally comprehend the source of the idiocy you spout?

Your post is so Ironic on so many levels, I give you credit for making me chuckle.

 

[bodecea]

Proof enough for me.

And that is ok...but you are not a Founder. Nor are you allowed to run our government by your own religious belief system, either your beliefs spoken or acted upon.

So where are these other religious passages you speak of? And can you prove they are correct and mine are wrong?

All scriptures from Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Myths, Legends of gods from all faiths and cultures....and no, they are NO MORE and NO LESS provable than your quoted passages. They are ALL non-provable equally. Some will call your passages nice, but fairy tales. You might call passages from the dharma or the Bhagavad Gita nice, but fairy tales. NONE are provable. Only actions that people take are provable.

ALL scriptures? The perhaps you could provide a few of them.

Islam:

The most concise description of the concept of God in Islam is given in Surah Al-Ikhlas, the 112th chapter of the Quran. The surah contains only 4 verses.
1. Say : "God is One.
2. "God is Perfect.
3. "He was not begotten, nor did he beget.
4. "None is equal to Him."

Hinduism:

There is no second God, nor a third, nor is even a fourth spoken of
There is no fifth God or a sixth nor is even a seventh mentioned.
There is no eighth God, nor a ninth. Nothing is spoken about a tenth even.
This unique power is in itself. That Lord is only one, the only omnipresent. It is one and the only one.
Atharva Veda 13.4.2 19-20

Buddhism isn't a religion.

Yes. they all believe they are correct just like YOU believe you are correct. They are not provable just like YOUR scripture isn't provable.

 

[bodecea]

Where would you like your rights to come from? Government? Other people? Who determines what they are?

You are born with them...they are Natural...aka Natural rights. Government does not give you your rights...that would infer they have the right to take them away whenever they feel like it.

But that's not a source outside of human existence, what you describe is a human concept, therefore it is definable by humans however they see fit to define it at the time. What you fail to grasp is that the founders used the concept of God, something greater than man, to define where rights extended from. Therefore they are immutable and untouchable by man for any reason. When you take that away, you give all the power to other men to determine what your rights are. It's the basic principle this country was founded on. If you take the concept of God away, you take away the founding principle.

Your problem is that you have such a huge chip on your shoulder that you can't think of anything in terms of anything other than what you believe. And then you proceed to basically plug your ears, close your eyes and continue to repeat the same responses ad nauseum instead of discussing anything. And then you wonder why no one will engage you in conversation.

That's right...there is no source outside of human existance. Now you are getting it.

 

[Gadawg73]

I keep hearing this from Allie, Lonestar and most of you:
"TheFounders stated they were very religous and that God needed to play a role in this and that."

When you folks vote do you go by what a politician says or WHAT THEY DO, THEIR TRACK RECORD?
The current state that we are in is that most Americans vote on what the political BS is that comes out of their mouths and do not have a clue as to what their voting record is or what legislation theY offered.
If any of you folks own a business as I do then when you do business do you go what people say or do you go by what their actions are and what is defined CONTRACTURALLY BY LAW?
When you folks go and buy a house, a car, a boat, ANYTHING, do you go by what the sales person says, claims, brags about, lectures on, states that God wants it and blesses it or DO YOU GO BY THE CONTRACT THAT YOU SIGN?
Again, what criteria do you go by when you vote for the politicians. Rank hearsay OR what they do, the actions they take, the legislation they introduce and pass?
Which is it?
Which HAS GREATER WEIGHT AND IS THE BEST evidence of what they believe in?
Words or ACTIONS?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

And that is ok...but you are not a Founder. Nor are you allowed to run our government by your own religious belief system, either your beliefs spoken or acted upon.



All scriptures from Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Myths, Legends of gods from all faiths and cultures....and no, they are NO MORE and NO LESS provable than your quoted passages. They are ALL non-provable equally. Some will call your passages nice, but fairy tales. You might call passages from the dharma or the Bhagavad Gita nice, but fairy tales. NONE are provable. Only actions that people take are provable.

ALL scriptures? The perhaps you could provide a few of them.

Islam:

The most concise description of the concept of God in Islam is given in Surah Al-Ikhlas, the 112th chapter of the Quran. The surah contains only 4 verses.
1. Say : "God is One.
2. "God is Perfect.
3. "He was not begotten, nor did he beget.
4. "None is equal to Him."

Hinduism:

There is no second God, nor a third, nor is even a fourth spoken of
There is no fifth God or a sixth nor is even a seventh mentioned.
There is no eighth God, nor a ninth. Nothing is spoken about a tenth even.
This unique power is in itself. That Lord is only one, the only omnipresent. It is one and the only one.
Atharva Veda 13.4.2 19-20

Buddhism isn't a religion.

Yes. they all believe they are correct just like YOU believe you are correct. They are not provable just like YOUR scripture isn't provable.

And they all made you out to be a liar. You stated that these religions had more than one God. Who am I to say their God isn't the same God as mine just called a different name?

 

[TheBrain]

And that is ok...but you are not a Founder. Nor are you allowed to run our government by your own religious belief system, either your beliefs spoken or acted upon.



All scriptures from Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Myths, Legends of gods from all faiths and cultures....and no, they are NO MORE and NO LESS provable than your quoted passages. They are ALL non-provable equally. Some will call your passages nice, but fairy tales. You might call passages from the dharma or the Bhagavad Gita nice, but fairy tales. NONE are provable. Only actions that people take are provable.

ALL scriptures? The perhaps you could provide a few of them.

Islam:

The most concise description of the concept of God in Islam is given in Surah Al-Ikhlas, the 112th chapter of the Quran. The surah contains only 4 verses.
1. Say : "God is One.
2. "God is Perfect.
3. "He was not begotten, nor did he beget.
4. "None is equal to Him."

Hinduism:

There is no second God, nor a third, nor is even a fourth spoken of
There is no fifth God or a sixth nor is even a seventh mentioned.
There is no eighth God, nor a ninth. Nothing is spoken about a tenth even.
This unique power is in itself. That Lord is only one, the only omnipresent. It is one and the only one.
Atharva Veda 13.4.2 19-20

Buddhism isn't a religion.

Yes. they all believe they are correct just like YOU believe you are correct. They are not provable just like YOUR scripture isn't provable.

One day you will find out how right we were. Oh what a glorious day that will be. I hope it happens soon. I really do.

 

[Gadawg73]

He was speaking for himself.

What part of " I " did you not understand?

"I think they are claiming" THEY ARE CLAIMING

You can't gather a thought for yourself either.
Imagine that.

Yes he was giving HIS opinion on what he thought they were claiming. He wasn't speaking FOR THEM.

Your name fits you, you're as dumb as a dog.

My standard of a politician is what they vote on, what legislation they support or don't support and what their actions are.
Your standards are what they state at political rallies.
All the while claiming that I am dumb.
No wonder the country is going down the tubes.

 

[Foxfyre]

The Founding Fathers did indeed believe that we are endowed with unalienable rights. But because they needed the southern states in the union, and some in those southern states would not agree that black men were wholly human, they didn't deal with that in the initial constitution. It was dealt with later, however.

But yes, the Founders, to a man, agreed that God or a Creator or Supreme Being is the source of unalienable rights that men would not be able to set aside for any reason.

And they did absolutely use Christian principles to forge the country that they gave us:

"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this - that it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." - John Quincy Adams
*****************************
"The Bible is the cornerstone of liberty. A student's perusal of the sacred volume will make him a better citizen, a better father, a better husband." - Thomas Jefferson
*****************************
"The Bible is the rock on which our Republic rests." - Andrew Jackson
*****************************
"In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government, ought to be instructed." - Noah Webster
*****************************
"We have staked the future of American civilization upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." - James Madison
*****************************
"He who shall introduce into public affairs the principles of primitive Christianity will change the face of the world." - Benjamin Franklin
*****************************
"It can not be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religions but on the gospel of Jesus Christ." - Patrick Henry
*****************************
"The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His apostles...to this we owe our free constitutions of government." - Noah Webster
*****************************
"Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed the conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?" - Thomas Jefferson
*****************************
"Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly implore His protection and favor." - George Washington
*****************************
"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited.... What a utopia, what a paradise would this region be." - John Adams
*****************************
"Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

(I have furnished sources for all these in earlier posts in this thread so did not do that again here.)

 

[Gadawg73]

ALL scriptures? The perhaps you could provide a few of them.

Islam:

The most concise description of the concept of God in Islam is given in Surah Al-Ikhlas, the 112th chapter of the Quran. The surah contains only 4 verses.
1. Say : "God is One.
2. "God is Perfect.
3. "He was not begotten, nor did he beget.
4. "None is equal to Him."

Hinduism:

There is no second God, nor a third, nor is even a fourth spoken of
There is no fifth God or a sixth nor is even a seventh mentioned.
There is no eighth God, nor a ninth. Nothing is spoken about a tenth even.
This unique power is in itself. That Lord is only one, the only omnipresent. It is one and the only one.
Atharva Veda 13.4.2 19-20

Buddhism isn't a religion.

Yes. they all believe they are correct just like YOU believe you are correct. They are not provable just like YOUR scripture isn't provable.

And they all made you out to be a liar. You stated that these religions had more than one God. Who am I to say their God isn't the same God as mine just called a different name?

So which is more important Lonestar?
Which is more indicative of where a politician stands on the issues?
What they say or the legislation they pass and support?

 

[Gadawg73]

The Founding Fathers did indeed believe that we are endowed with unalienable rights. But because they needed the southern states in the union, and some in those southern states would not agree that black men were wholly human, they didn't deal with that in the initial constitution. It was dealt with later, however.

But yes, the Founders, to a man, agreed that God or a Creator or Supreme Being is the source of unalienable rights that men would not be able to set aside for any reason.

And they did absolutely use Christian principles to forge the country that they gave us:

"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this - that it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." - John Quincy Adams
*****************************
"The Bible is the cornerstone of liberty. A student's perusal of the sacred volume will make him a better citizen, a better father, a better husband." - Thomas Jefferson
*****************************
"The Bible is the rock on which our Republic rests." - Andrew Jackson
*****************************
"In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government, ought to be instructed." - Noah Webster
*****************************
"We have staked the future of American civilization upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." - James Madison
*****************************
"He who shall introduce into public affairs the principles of primitive Christianity will change the face of the world." - Benjamin Franklin
*****************************
"It can not be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religions but on the gospel of Jesus Christ." - Patrick Henry
*****************************
"The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His apostles...to this we owe our free constitutions of government." - Noah Webster
*****************************
"Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed the conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?" - Thomas Jefferson
*****************************
"Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly implore His protection and favor." - George Washington
*****************************
"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited.... What a utopia, what a paradise would this region be." - John Adams
*****************************
"Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

(I have furnished sources for all these in earlier posts in this thread so did not do that again here.)

So which is a better indicator of what a politician believes:
What is the best evidence:
Their words or their actions?
What holds more water and credibility in the world? Words spoken or legislation passed and supported?
Which is it? Which is more important for the people? Which protects the people and governs the people?
Words or legislation? Which is a better indicator of where a politician really stands?

 

[Gadawg73]

What is a nation founded on?
Words or the actions of the people and the politicians, the legislation they pass and the system set up to enforce that legislation?
What is the best evidence of what a nation is founded on?
Words or ACTIONS?

 

[TheBrain]

What is a nation founded on?
Words or the actions of the people and the politicians, the legislation they pass and the system set up to enforce that legislation?
What is the best evidence of what a nation is founded on?
Words or ACTIONS?

No one answered this stupid strawman when Bode asked it for 3 days straight, and no one is going to answer it now. It's irrelevant and ridiculous that you are using the fact that Christians aren't perfect to try to show that they weren't even Christians to begin with.

Nitwit.

 

[Foxfyre]

The Founding Fathers did indeed believe that we are endowed with unalienable rights. But because they needed the southern states in the union, and some in those southern states would not agree that black men were wholly human, they didn't deal with that in the initial constitution. It was dealt with later, however.

But yes, the Founders, to a man, agreed that God or a Creator or Supreme Being is the source of unalienable rights that men would not be able to set aside for any reason.

And they did absolutely use Christian principles to forge the country that they gave us:

"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this - that it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." - John Quincy Adams
*****************************
"The Bible is the cornerstone of liberty. A student's perusal of the sacred volume will make him a better citizen, a better father, a better husband." - Thomas Jefferson
*****************************
"The Bible is the rock on which our Republic rests." - Andrew Jackson
*****************************
"In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government, ought to be instructed." - Noah Webster
*****************************
"We have staked the future of American civilization upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." - James Madison
*****************************
"He who shall introduce into public affairs the principles of primitive Christianity will change the face of the world." - Benjamin Franklin
*****************************
"It can not be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religions but on the gospel of Jesus Christ." - Patrick Henry
*****************************
"The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His apostles...to this we owe our free constitutions of government." - Noah Webster
*****************************
"Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed the conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?" - Thomas Jefferson
*****************************
"Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly implore His protection and favor." - George Washington
*****************************
"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited.... What a utopia, what a paradise would this region be." - John Adams
*****************************
"Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

(I have furnished sources for all these in earlier posts in this thread so did not do that again here.)

So which is a better indicator of what a politician believes:
What is the best evidence:
Their words or their actions?
What holds more water and credibility in the world? Words spoken or legislation passed and supported?
Which is it? Which is more important for the people? Which protects the people and governs the people?
Words or legislation? Which is a better indicator of where a politician really stands?

Their actions were to put their lives on the line, be willing to spill their blood, be willing to lose everything in order to be a free people who would govern themselves. And once they won freedom, they secured it by giving us the original U.S. Constitution. That was the great experiment of the Unitied States. A central government would secure the rights of the people and then leave them alone to govern themselves. There had never been anything like it in the history of the world. It produced the most free, most innovative, most productive, and most prosperous nation the world had ever known.

If their actions that could have cost them all that they had including their lives isn't sufficient for you as proof of where they stood, then I fear that you are quite hopeless and uneducable.

 

[Gadawg73]

What is a nation founded on?
Words or the actions of the people and the politicians, the legislation they pass and the system set up to enforce that legislation?
What is the best evidence of what a nation is founded on?
Words or ACTIONS?

No one answered this stupid strawman when Bode asked it for 3 days straight, and no one is going to answer it now. It's irrelevant and ridiculous that you are using the fact that Christians aren't perfect to try to show that they weren't even Christians to begin with.

Nitwit.

I never saw anyone ask this question so I will go back and look.

YOU are the one throwing out the quotes of the Founders.
Not me. YOU state that the words mean more than their actions.
NOT ME.
No one will answer because they and you know I am right.
ACTIONS mean more than words to anyone with a brain.
But you do not hold politicians to that standard. You believe what they say ONLY.
Legislation, treaties, THE LAW is secondary to you.
You know nothing about business, government, policy or THE LAW.
That is why you will not answer. You have been backed into a corner and you know it.
You have thrown in the towel.

Wham it zero on set, EP team on ready, 3rd string D on gather.

 

[Gadawg73]

The Founding Fathers did indeed believe that we are endowed with unalienable rights. But because they needed the southern states in the union, and some in those southern states would not agree that black men were wholly human, they didn't deal with that in the initial constitution. It was dealt with later, however.

But yes, the Founders, to a man, agreed that God or a Creator or Supreme Being is the source of unalienable rights that men would not be able to set aside for any reason.

And they did absolutely use Christian principles to forge the country that they gave us:

"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this - that it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." - John Quincy Adams
*****************************
"The Bible is the cornerstone of liberty. A student's perusal of the sacred volume will make him a better citizen, a better father, a better husband." - Thomas Jefferson
*****************************
"The Bible is the rock on which our Republic rests." - Andrew Jackson
*****************************
"In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government, ought to be instructed." - Noah Webster
*****************************
"We have staked the future of American civilization upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." - James Madison
*****************************
"He who shall introduce into public affairs the principles of primitive Christianity will change the face of the world." - Benjamin Franklin
*****************************
"It can not be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religions but on the gospel of Jesus Christ." - Patrick Henry
*****************************
"The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His apostles...to this we owe our free constitutions of government." - Noah Webster
*****************************
"Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed the conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?" - Thomas Jefferson
*****************************
"Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly implore His protection and favor." - George Washington
*****************************
"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited.... What a utopia, what a paradise would this region be." - John Adams
*****************************
"Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

(I have furnished sources for all these in earlier posts in this thread so did not do that again here.)

So which is a better indicator of what a politician believes:
What is the best evidence:
Their words or their actions?
What holds more water and credibility in the world? Words spoken or legislation passed and supported?
Which is it? Which is more important for the people? Which protects the people and governs the people?
Words or legislation? Which is a better indicator of where a politician really stands?

Their actions were to put their lives on the line, be willing to spill their blood, be willing to lose everything in order to be a free people who would govern themselves. And once they won freedom, they secured it by giving us the original U.S. Constitution. That was the great experiment of the Unitied States. A central government would secure the rights of the people and then leave them alone to govern themselves. There had never been anything like it in the history of the world. It produced the most free, most innovative, most productive, and most prosperous nation the world had ever known.

If their actions that could have cost them all that they had including their lives isn't sufficient for you as proof of where they stood, then I fear that you are quite hopeless and uneducable.

You dodged my question. Slant, distort and twist.

 

[TheBrain]

What is a nation founded on?
Words or the actions of the people and the politicians, the legislation they pass and the system set up to enforce that legislation?
What is the best evidence of what a nation is founded on?
Words or ACTIONS?

No one answered this stupid strawman when Bode asked it for 3 days straight, and no one is going to answer it now. It's irrelevant and ridiculous that you are using the fact that Christians aren't perfect to try to show that they weren't even Christians to begin with.

Nitwit.

I never saw anyone ask this question so I will go back and look.

YOU are the one throwing out the quotes of the Founders.
Not me. YOU state that the words mean more than their actions.
NOT ME.
No one will answer because they and you know I am right.
ACTIONS mean more than words to anyone with a brain.
But you do not hold politicians to that standard. You believe what they say ONLY.
Legislation, treaties, THE LAW is secondary to you.
You know nothing about business, government, policy or THE LAW.
That is why you will not answer. You have been backed into a corner and you know it.
You have thrown in the towel.

Wham it zero on set, EP team on ready, 3rd string D on gather.

I am not throwing out any quotes. I made my last post trying to get you to see facts 2 days ago and made it known that was my last post doing so. Now I'm just poking at you goobers. You didn't even bother to read my post. If you had you'd surely agree that a document written a decade AFTER the founding of our nations is NOT a founding document.

but whatever. you gave up logic a long time ago, so no worries.

 

[Foxfyre]

So which is a better indicator of what a politician believes:
What is the best evidence:
Their words or their actions?
What holds more water and credibility in the world? Words spoken or legislation passed and supported?
Which is it? Which is more important for the people? Which protects the people and governs the people?
Words or legislation? Which is a better indicator of where a politician really stands?

Their actions were to put their lives on the line, be willing to spill their blood, be willing to lose everything in order to be a free people who would govern themselves. And once they won freedom, they secured it by giving us the original U.S. Constitution. That was the great experiment of the Unitied States. A central government would secure the rights of the people and then leave them alone to govern themselves. There had never been anything like it in the history of the world. It produced the most free, most innovative, most productive, and most prosperous nation the world had ever known.

If their actions that could have cost them all that they had including their lives isn't sufficient for you as proof of where they stood, then I fear that you are quite hopeless and uneducable.

You dodged my question. Slant, distort and twist.

Nope. Sorry. Focused, on point, and accurate to show that their actions backed up the words I posted. You'll have to do better than that if you want any points in this debate.