The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

[Sky Dancer]

What is a real Christian and who gets to decide?

There are cultural Christians and practicing Christians I think is the point. You and Care seem like real Christians to me. Allie too.

I appreciate that you'll all keep an eye on the extremist Christians lest I descend into paranoia and conspiracy theory.

It's been known to happen.

The mega-churches scare me. The Christian Coalition, Focus on the Family, Coral Ridge Ministeries. They have a lot of power and they appear to have taken over the GOP.

No, they haven't.
And they have a lot less power than Planned Parenthood.

Planned Parenthood hasn't gotten a President elected. The Christian right has. They own the GOP.

 

[AllieBaba]

So I checked the Christian Coalition for scary right wing extremism.

Christian Coalition of America | Defending America's Godly Heritage!

Look what I found:

"As incredible (or not) as it may seem, senior citizens at a Georgia rest home have been told by a company that contracts with the city of Port Wentworth that, since the meals they provide are primarily subsidized by the federal government, they should not openly pray before meals."

"The Democrats won a very narrow victory on Thursday in the United States House of Representatives when they passed their clearly unconstitutional "DISCLOSE Act" H.R. 5175. Considering the fact that the Democrats overwhelmingly control the House of Representatives -- as they do the United States Senate -- the 219-206 vote was close indeed.

It is quite obvious, the 36 Democrats who voted against the "DISCLOSE Act" and against their Democrat leadership are hearing the footsteps of the American voters. Only two liberal Republicans, Mike Castle, running for governor of Delaware and the freshman from Louisiana, Ahn "Joseph" Cao, voted for this First Amendment-stifling legislation.

Nancy Pelosi had a hard time getting "moderate" Democrats to vote for the bill, so she carved out a special sweet-heart deal for the National Rifle Association, exempting them from the bill's campaign finance reporting regulations. Her left-wingers got angry over that, so she carved out more exemptions -- as she did for most of the country's unions -- for other Democrat-favored groups. And that is how she won her narrow victory. "

"From the government’s Department of Perverse Acronyms comes the “DISCLOSE Act”, which stands for “Democracy is Strengthened by Casting Light On Spending in Elections”. How clever. And how disingenuous.

It’s being championed by New York Democrat Chuck Schumer in an attempt to get around this year’s Supreme Court decision which threw out restrictions on freedom of speech for unions and corporations in political campaigns.

The claim is that large amounts of money spent by corporations on political speech somehow corrupts the system, but it should be noted that Schumer’s bill would reinstate no restrictions on unions, just corporations and average citizens. In other words, he only seems to want to cast light on “some” spending."

Which is all very interesting.

But I see nothing on the site that encourages theocracy or state-dictated religion.

So what's the story, Sky? Do you think Christians shouldn't be able to vote, period? Or should they just not be allowed to participate in politics?

 

[Sky Dancer]

Works for me.

Read this Allie:

http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/wilcoxc/guth.pdf

 

[rikules]

and alliebabble is one of them

No, Allie certainly is not, liar.

You have clearly stated you don't support a Christian theocracy.

and every time he "states it clearly" he lies.

I have no doubt that he BELIEVES it when he says it

but it is still a lie...

look

he is MOST vociferous about giving "evidence" tha America IS a christian nation

he has been very clear about THAT, too

he may say, today, "I do NOT support a christian theocracy"

but as familiar as I am with alliebabble I have no doubt that if christians ever have enough power/influence to enact sharia...er...I mean....christian laws then he wil be the first to DEFEND these acts

today he says "I do not support a christian theocracy"

but every time he says "America IS a christian nation" he means "so I have no problem with christian biblical laws against atheist, homosexuals, feminists, wiccans....."

 

[Sky Dancer]

No, Allie certainly is not, liar.

You have clearly stated you don't support a Christian theocracy.

and every time he "states it clearly" he lies.

I have no doubt that he BELIEVES it when he says it

but it is still a lie...

look

he is MOST vociferous about giving "evidence" tha America IS a christian nation

he has been very clear about THAT, too

he may say, today, "I do NOT support a christian theocracy"

but as familiar as I am with alliebabble I have no doubt that if christians ever have enough power/influence to enact sharia...er...I mean....christian laws then he wil be the first to DEFEND these acts

today he says "I do not support a christian theocracy"

but every time she says "America IS a christian nation" he means "so I have no problem with christian biblical laws against atheist, homosexuals, feminists, wiccans....."

True. Allie is against gay rights, feminism, wiccans and atheists. She's as right wing as they come.

 

[AllieBaba]

We have never been a Christian nation. The Constitution is godless. We are a secular society.

You keep saying that as if somehow we will come to believe it.....sorry...

...we were a Christian nation right from the start.....the Constitution was based on the existence of God.....and we started off being a very Christian society...and are still today to a great extent...

Secularism did not even exist back in 1776...atheists did not even have a rational explanation for the world until Darwin came along in the next century...thus people were very religious in almost all ways...

However....our founders did not wish to favor one religion over another....they did not want a theocracy....this is why they came to America....to get away from theocratic religions...which is the reason for the no establishment of religion clause...however that certainly didn't mean religious values and principles couldn't become law...in that day there were by and large no other kind of values in existence...

Are you talking about the Pilgrims? The Anglican Church? They came to America and immediately oppressed the Quakers.

That's why there is no mention of God in the Constitution.

The government is secular. No divine kings here.

Wrong premise. Again. The government doesn't have to be secular to deny the divinity of kings.

 

[AllieBaba]

""Jefferson believed that God, not government, was the Author and Source of our rights and that the government, therefore, was to be prevented from interference with those rights. Very simply, the 'fence' of the Webster letter and the 'wall' of the Danbury letter were not to limit religious activities in public; rather they were to limit the power of the government to prohibit or interfere with those expressions."

NOW with David Brancaccio. Politics & Economy. God and Government. Thomas Jefferson's Letter | PBS

 

[Sky Dancer]

You keep saying that as if somehow we will come to believe it.....sorry...

...we were a Christian nation right from the start.....the Constitution was based on the existence of God.....and we started off being a very Christian society...and are still today to a great extent...

Secularism did not even exist back in 1776...atheists did not even have a rational explanation for the world until Darwin came along in the next century...thus people were very religious in almost all ways...

However....our founders did not wish to favor one religion over another....they did not want a theocracy....this is why they came to America....to get away from theocratic religions...which is the reason for the no establishment of religion clause...however that certainly didn't mean religious values and principles couldn't become law...in that day there were by and large no other kind of values in existence...

Are you talking about the Pilgrims? The Anglican Church? They came to America and immediately oppressed the Quakers.

That's why there is no mention of God in the Constitution.

The government is secular. No divine kings here.

Wrong premise. Again. The government doesn't have to be secular to deny the divinity of kings.

Read the Constitution. No God there. It's a secular document.

 

[rikules]

So I checked the Christian Coalition for scary right wing extremism.

Christian Coalition of America | Defending America's Godly Heritage!

Look what I found:

"As incredible (or not) as it may seem, senior citizens at a Georgia rest home have been told by a company that contracts with the city of Port Wentworth that, since the meals they provide are primarily subsidized by the federal government, they should not openly pray before meals."

"The Democrats won a very narrow victory on Thursday in the United States House of Representatives when they passed their clearly unconstitutional "DISCLOSE Act" H.R. 5175. Considering the fact that the Democrats overwhelmingly control the House of Representatives -- as they do the United States Senate -- the 219-206 vote was close indeed.

It is quite obvious, the 36 Democrats who voted against the "DISCLOSE Act" and against their Democrat leadership are hearing the footsteps of the American voters. Only two liberal Republicans, Mike Castle, running for governor of Delaware and the freshman from Louisiana, Ahn "Joseph" Cao, voted for this First Amendment-stifling legislation.

Nancy Pelosi had a hard time getting "moderate" Democrats to vote for the bill, so she carved out a special sweet-heart deal for the National Rifle Association, exempting them from the bill's campaign finance reporting regulations. Her left-wingers got angry over that, so she carved out more exemptions -- as she did for most of the country's unions -- for other Democrat-favored groups. And that is how she won her narrow victory. "

"From the government’s Department of Perverse Acronyms comes the “DISCLOSE Act”, which stands for “Democracy is Strengthened by Casting Light On Spending in Elections”. How clever. And how disingenuous.

It’s being championed by New York Democrat Chuck Schumer in an attempt to get around this year’s Supreme Court decision which threw out restrictions on freedom of speech for unions and corporations in political campaigns.

The claim is that large amounts of money spent by corporations on political speech somehow corrupts the system, but it should be noted that Schumer’s bill would reinstate no restrictions on unions, just corporations and average citizens. In other words, he only seems to want to cast light on “some” spending."

Which is all very interesting.

But I see nothing on the site that encourages theocracy or state-dictated religion.

So what's the story, Sky? Do you think Christians shouldn't be able to vote, period? Or should they just not be allowed to participate in politics?

9. "Just like what Nazi Germany did to the Jews, so liberal America is now doing to the evangelical Christians. It's no different. It is the same thing. It is happening all over again. It is the Democratic Congress, the liberal-based media and the homosexuals who want to destroy the Christians. Wholesale abuse and discrimination and the worst bigotry directed toward any group in America today. More terrible than anything suffered by any minority in history." –Pat Robertson


7. "(T)he feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." –Pat Robertson

6. "I know this is painful for the ladies to hear, but if you get married, you have accepted the headship of a man, your husband. Christ is the head of the household and the husband is the head of the wife, and that's the way it is, period." –Pat Robertson

"Well, I totally concur." –Pat Robertson to Jerry Falwell following the Sept. 11 attacks, after Falwell said, "I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say: "You helped this happen." "You know, I don't know about this doctrine of assassination, but if he thinks we're trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it. It's a whole lot cheaper than starting a war ... We have the ability to take him out, and I think the time has come that we exercise that ability. We don't need another $200 billion war to get rid of one, you know, strong-arm dictator. It's a whole lot easier to have some of the covert operatives do the job and then get it over with." –Pat Robertson, calling for the assassination of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez

"Wait a minute, I didn't say 'assassination.' I said our special forces should 'take him out,' and 'take him out' can be a number of things, including kidnapping." –Pat Robertson, clarifying his call to assassinate Hugo Chavez

"If the widespread practice of homosexuality will bring about the destruction of your nation, if it will bring about terrorist bombs, if it'll bring about earthquakes, tornadoes and possibly a meteor, it isn't necessarily something we ought to open our arms to."
--The 700 Club, June 8, 1998

"Many of those people involved with Adolf Hitler were Satanists, many of them were homosexuals - the two things seem to go together."
--The 700 Club, January 21, 1993

We at the Christian Coalition are raising an army who cares. We are training people to be effective -- to be elected to school boards, to city councils, to state legislatures, and to key positions in political parties.... By the end of this decade, if we work and give and organize and train, THE CHRISTIAN COALITION WILL BE THE MOST POWERFUL POLITICAL ORGANIZATION IN AMERICA
-- Pat Robertson, in a fundraising letter, July 4, 1991



We have enough votes to run the country. And when the people say, "We've had enough," we are going to take over.
-- Pat Robertson, speech given to the April, 1980 "Washington for Jesus" rally, quoted from Robert Boston, The Most Dangerous Man in America, p. 29

-------------------------


according to conservative christian pat robertson ONLY CHRISTIANS are moral enough to
hold public office
teach in our schools
serve in the military

I imagine he would deny non-christians the righ tto vote

(and YOU would support him!)

newt gingrich said
"we must change the laws of the land to reflect our religious (christian) beliefs and see to it that they can never b echange again"

 

[Christopher]

None the less, Jefferson and Franklin were Deists, not Christians. An important distinction. They took great care to craft governing documents based on reason, not religion.

No, Jefferson was a Christian by his own admission. Yes, Franklin was a Deist, although he questioned his Deist beliefs later in life. See my reply to you earlier (post #415).

Not quite. He called himself a Christian, but did so while redefining the world to mean something totally different- like democratic socialists and progressives calling themselves liberals.


If only I still had that Jefferon Bible.

[SIZE=+1] I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others, ascribing to himself every human excellence, and believing he never claimed any other. [/SIZE]

This puts him at odds with a fundamental pillar of Christian theology.

The Jefferson Bible: Syllabus

Actually he defined it as something different from orthodox Christianity. His words show he believed in following the tenants that Christ taught with his words “...in the only sense in which he (Jesus) wished us to be”. He was similar to many other Protestants who fought against religious practices they felt were not what Christ taught, such as Martin Luther. To me, it shows he was a good Christian to say such a thing.

Heaven forbid that people who saw the problems with Orthodox Christianity, the power/control, the hypocrisy, etc. would want to return to the actual teachings of Jesus.

 

[Christopher]

What you fail to recognize is how much more fundamental and politically powerful christianity is today. 100 years ago, churches were small and rural. Churches nowadays are closer to corporations. Look at new life "church". Churches and their members have become much more radical in their beliefs. This isn't your grandfathers church.

How George W. Bush became the head of the new American Dominionist Church/State

Joan Bokaer, the Director of Theocracy Watch, a project of the Center for Religion, Ethics and Social Policy at Cornell University wrote, “In March 1986, I was on a speaking tour in Iowa and received a copy of the following memo [Pat] Robertson had distributed to the Iowa Republican County Caucus titled, “How to Participate in a Political Party.” It read:

“Rule the world for God.

“Give the impression that you are there to work for the party, not push an ideology.

“Hide your strength.

“Don’t flaunt your Christianity.

“Christians need to take leadership positions. Party officers control political parties and so it is very important that mature Christians have a majority of leadership positions whenever possible, God willing.”[12]
The Despoiling Of America

I did the same thing. From their own website:

The Yurica Report is run by two senior citizens--two old ladies in running shoes!

 

[Sky Dancer]

No, Jefferson was a Christian by his own admission. Yes, Franklin was a Deist, although he questioned his Deist beliefs later in life. See my reply to you earlier (post #415).

Not quite. He called himself a Christian, but did so while redefining the world to mean something totally different- like democratic socialists and progressives calling themselves liberals.


If only I still had that Jefferon Bible.

[SIZE=+1] I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others, ascribing to himself every human excellence, and believing he never claimed any other. [/SIZE]

This puts him at odds with a fundamental pillar of Christian theology.

The Jefferson Bible: Syllabus

Actually he defined it as something different from orthodox Christianity. His words show he believed in following the tenants that Christ taught with his words “...in the only sense in which he (Jesus) wished us to be”. He was similar to many other Protestants who fought against religious practices they felt were not what Christ taught, such as Martin Luther. To me, it shows he was a good Christian to say such a thing.

Heaven forbid that people who saw the problems with Orthodox Christianity, the power/control, the hypocrisy, etc. would want to return to the actual teachings of Jesus.

To me it shows Jefferson could reason and he distanced himself from the supernatural aspects of religion.

 

[AllieBaba]

You don't have to guess when it comes to Jefferson. He clearly stated freedom and liberty came from God and God alone.

 

[Sky Dancer]

You don't have to guess when it comes to Jefferson. He clearly stated freedom and liberty came from God and God alone.

He drafted and signed a godless Constitution. This is the basis of our national government, not the Bible.



The religious views of Thomas Jefferson diverged widely from the orthodox Christianity of his day. Throughout his life Jefferson was intensely interested in theology, biblical study, and morality. He is most closely connected with the religious philosophy of Deism, and Unitarianism. He is reported to have said, "Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson

 

[Intense]

The point is the Founders took care to assert it is "We the people" who govern, not God. They purposely left God out of the Constitution.

This is NOT a Christian nation. It is wrong to say America was founded on Christian principles. The Dominionists want everyone to go there because they seek a Christian theocracy.

Some Christian groups want a theocracy. They want the US to declare itself a Christian nation and they may let the rest of us practice our spiritual paths as long as we know our places.

"Christians have an obligation, a mandate, a commission, a holy responsibility to reclaim the land for Jesus Christ -- to have dominion in civil structures, just as in every other aspect of life and godliness. But it is dominion we are after. Not just a voice. It is dominion we are after. Not just influence. It is dominion we are after. Not just equal time. It is dominion we are after. World conquest. That's what Christ has commissioned us to accomplish. We must win the world with the power of the Gospel. And we must never settle for anything less... Thus, Christian politics has as its primary intent the conquest of the land -- of men, families, institutions, bureaucracies, courts, and governments for the Kingdom of Christ."

(From The Changing of the Guard: Biblical Principles for Political Action by George Grant, published in 1987 by Dominion Press)

Many conservative Christians at large advocate theocratic principles in a quest to conquer America, convinced that the United States was founded as a Christian nation and (now) needs to return to her "Christian heritage." Pseudo-historian David Barton, through his Wall Builders organization, has perhaps done the most to propagate the myth of America founded as a Christian nation. The theocratic movement is based on historical falsehoods (for example, the erroneous claim that most of America's founding fathers were Christians) and a belief that Old Testament laws should apply to America governance.
American Theocracy: Who Wants to Turn America into a Theocracy?

Right on the first point, wrong on the second.

 

[AllieBaba]

Sheesh, Sky. If that's the sort of propaganda you read, no wonder you can't understand English.

 

[Intense]

The point is the Founders took care to assert it is "We the people" who govern, not God. They purposely left God out of the Constitution.

This is NOT a Christian nation. It is wrong to say America was founded on Christian principles. The Dominionists want everyone to go there because they seek a Christian theocracy.

Some Christian groups want a theocracy. They want the US to declare itself a Christian nation and they may let the rest of us practice our spiritual paths as long as we know our places.

You have stated these points several times and I have not seen many disagree with you. At the same time you are not addressing the fact you were wrong about which founders were Christians and which were Deists. Correct me if I am wrong, but was it not you that asserted that most of those who signed the Constitution were not Christian?

What is wrong is to say that Christian principles had little or no influence on the founding of America.

What is wrong, is to state that the US was founded on Christian principles when it clearly was not.

God is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence, but not in the Constitution. Nowhere is Jesus mentioned.

I'm taking care about this because there are dominionists who seek to make America a Christian theocracy by rewriting American history.

First and foremost the founders took care to not have a Christian nation because of King George. They did not want leaders who assumed the divine right of kings. (One could argue that Bush expanded Presidential powers so much that we almost had King George W Bush) Some of the domionists saw Bush as the first of their leaders.

The founders were a mixed bag. Some were Unitarian, some were deists and some were Christians. That doesn't mean that America was founded on Christian principles.

You have to rewrite history to go there. Actually, they are busy in Texas doing that very thing.

Our laws of laws of men, and reason. They are a result of the Enlightenment. The founders took great care to not have religion overrun the country.

I think we honor them when we take care to guard our liberties carefully from those who seek to make the US a Christian theocracy.

It's you that was spoon fed the rewriting of history through your schooling. That's not your fault. The proof is in the founding documents. The Nation existed under the articles of confederation for more than a decade before the Constitution became the supreme law of the land SD.

Original Texts. Liberty Library of Constitutional Classics

 

[Sky Dancer]

Sheesh, Sky. If that's the sort of propaganda you read, no wonder you can't understand English.

What are you referencing?

 

[rikules]

You don't have to guess when it comes to Jefferson. He clearly stated freedom and liberty came from God and God alone.

well

he was wrong


there is no god


so therefore freedom and liberty could NOT come from something that doesn't exist

 

[bodecea]

You don't have to guess when it comes to Jefferson. He clearly stated freedom and liberty came from God and God alone.

He drafted and signed a godless Constitution. This is the basis of our national government, not the Bible.



The religious views of Thomas Jefferson diverged widely from the orthodox Christianity of his day. Throughout his life Jefferson was intensely interested in theology, biblical study, and morality. He is most closely connected with the religious philosophy of Deism, and Unitarianism. He is reported to have said, "Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear".

Thomas Jefferson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sorry, Jefferson did not. It was Madison. Jefferson was in France at the time.