The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

[pinqy]

Wrong premise. Again. The government doesn't have to be secular to deny the divinity of kings.

Read the Constitution. No God there. It's a secular document.

there would be NO Constitution, without the Declaration of Independence....the two go hand in hand....

Ok, why wouldn't there be a Constitution without the Declaration of Independence? And surely you're not forgetting about the Articles of Confederation.

 

[editec]

The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

True

 

[froggy]

John Adams
2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.

 

[froggy]

Thomas Jefferson
3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

 

[froggy]

Benjamin Franklin
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Unites States Constitution

"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;

But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure."
--Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.

 

[froggy]

Which God were they referring to in all of their writings ?

Roman catholic.

 

[JBeukema]

Actually he defined it as something different from orthodox Christianity. His words show he believed in following the tenants that Christ taught with his words “...in the only sense in which he (Jesus) wished us to be”. He was similar to many other Protestants who fought against religious practices they felt were not what Christ taught, such as Martin Luther. To me, it shows he was a good Christian to say such a thing.

To claim Jesus was not divine if the to throw away the entire premise of Christianity- that the LORD payed for your sins by sending his only begotten son, who was of himself (the concept of divinity multiplicity goes back to Genesis)to live a sinless life and pay what he owed Satan in accordance with the greatest bet ever made. This carries over into Revelation, where it is made clear to those familiar with Jewish property laws that the debt is payed, yet God has not yet claimed back the Earth, though it is his to rule and he holds the deed to creation, sealed with seven seals.

If Jesus was not divine, he cannot be sinless, since we are born imperfect and blighted by the stains of the world's fallen state (see: original sin and 'noone is without sin'). Hence he cannot pay the the price (the life of a sinless man) he payed upon the cross ('it is finished'). Hence salvation is not possible through Jesus- unless h was divine, starting with a clean slate upon his birth, and lived a sinless life.

NOT TRUE. there are several religions that claim to be Christian that do not view Christ as God, they view him as the Son of God, or as the messiah, but not God himself.....Unitarians, Mormons as 2 examples...

All cults and spinoffs.


And the bible warns of us false prophets and churches- Lucifer's deceptions. The broad and winding road to damnation.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

U.S. Constitution: A secular document?
By Judge Roy Moore

Some who mistakenly consider our Constitution to be a "secular" document with no relationship to God will no doubt question the relevance of asking candidates about moral issues. But our Founding Fathers would have considered it strange if we did not insist that our leaders clarify their views on issues such as abortion, homosexuality, and the intimate relationship between God and our federal Constitution.

Dr. Benjamin Franklin, a prominent leader at the Constitutional Convention, not only called for prayer during the deliberations, but also later stated that he had "so much faith in the general government of the world by Providence, that [he could] hardly conceive a transaction of such momentous importance [as the Constitution] to pass without being in some degree influenced, guided and governed by that omnipotent, omnipresent and beneficent Ruler, in whom all inferior spirits live and move and have their being."

Always to the point, Convention President George Washington declared that the "event is in the hands of God." As our first president under the Constitution, Washington proclaimed in his Farewell Address, "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. ... [R]eason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle." His Address was read annually in Congress for decades and was printed in schoolbooks for children for many years precisely because it expressed the convictions of the American people about our republic.

John Adams, Washington's successor to the presidency, aptly observed, "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." Adams recognized that our Constitution would not work unless we retained moral and religious principles. Were Adams with us today he would be among the first to question presidential candidates on their moral and religious views of God's sovereignty over the government.

That God's authority superseded that of man was not in doubt with those who drafted our Constitution. James Madison, the chief architect of the Constitution and fourth president of the United States, plainly stated in Federalist No. 43 that the authority for ratification of the Constitution by nine states under Article VII of the document was the same "laws of Nature and Nature's God" to which Thomas Jefferson, our third president, had appealed for our right to exist as a Nation in the Declaration of Independence.

The recognition of the sovereignty of God is an essential prerequisite for liberty. The Constitution proclaimed in its preamble that one of the stated purposes of the government is to "secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity." In the Declaration of Independence, Jefferson wrote that liberty was a gift of God and an "unalienable right" to be secured by government. One of those liberties, according to Washington, was the right to worship God, a right "not only among the choicest of [our] blessings, but also of [our] rights."

If presidential candidates do not clearly understand that God is the source of liberty, they will not protect those liberties from intrusive bureaucracy. As Jefferson so succinctly stated, "Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that their liberties are a gift of God?"

U.S. Constitution: A secular document?

 

[Christopher]

To claim Jesus was not divine if the to throw away the entire premise of Christianity- that the LORD payed for your sins by sending his only begotten son, who was of himself (the concept of divinity multiplicity goes back to Genesis)to live a sinless life and pay what he owed Satan in accordance with the greatest bet ever made. This carries over into Revelation, where it is made clear to those familiar with Jewish property laws that the debt is payed, yet God has not yet claimed back the Earth, though it is his to rule and he holds the deed to creation, sealed with seven seals.

If Jesus was not divine, he cannot be sinless, since we are born imperfect and blighted by the stains of the world's fallen state (see: original sin and 'noone is without sin'). Hence he cannot pay the the price (the life of a sinless man) he payed upon the cross ('it is finished'). Hence salvation is not possible through Jesus- unless h was divine, starting with a clean slate upon his birth, and lived a sinless life.

NOT TRUE. there are several religions that claim to be Christian that do not view Christ as God, they view him as the Son of God, or as the messiah, but not God himself.....Unitarians, Mormons as 2 examples...

All cults and spinoffs.


And the bible warns of us false prophets and churches- Lucifer's deceptions. The broad and winding road to damnation.

What criteria are you using to categorize a religion a cult?

Believing that Christ was the Son of God, the Messiah (as the Bible says he is) is not Christian?

 

[Sky Dancer]

Wrong premise. Again. The government doesn't have to be secular to deny the divinity of kings.

Read the Constitution. No God there. It's a secular document.

there would be NO Constitution, without the Declaration of Independence....the two go hand in hand....

God is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence. I posit the US is a secular government. God in the Declaration of Independence is mostly likley the Deist version rather than orthodox Christian. We're on opposite political sides now, Care. Can we still remain friends?

 

[Gadawg73]

Wrong premise. Again. The government doesn't have to be secular to deny the divinity of kings.

Read the Constitution. No God there. It's a secular document.

there would be NO Constitution, without the Declaration of Independence....the two go hand in hand....

No.
The Declaration of Independence would be nothing but fodder unless the Founders wrote AND PASSED the US Constitution.
The Declaration of Independence is not law.
Have any of you taken the time to get off your butts and do any research? If you did you would find that EVERY SINGLE ONE of the religous ideas that were proposed to be included in the Constitution WERE VOTED DOWN.
And you still claim we are a nation founded on religion.
Do your homework.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Wrong premise. Again. The government doesn't have to be secular to deny the divinity of kings.

Read the Constitution. No God there. It's a secular document.

there would be NO Constitution, without the Declaration of Independence....the two go hand in hand....

Let's remember the Declaration of Independence was a separation from King George who was considered a divine king.

The whole intention of the Founders all along was no state religion. We were never designed to be a Christian nation, but a secular society with relgious freedom.

A freedom that some Christians seek to reverse. Coral Ridge Ministeries, Focus on the Family, Christian Coalition etc etc. Are you for them or against them?

"With all due respect to those dear people, my friend, God Almighty does not hear the prayer of a Jew." Bailey Smith

Yes, religion and politics do mix. America is a nation based on biblical principles. Christian values dominate our government. The test of those values is the Bible. Politicians who do not use the bible to guide their public and private lives do not belong in office."Beverly Lahaye. Concerned Women of America

"When the Christian majority takes over this country, there will be no satanic churches, no more free distribution of pornography, no more talk of rights for homosexuals. After the Christian majority takes control, pluralism will be seen as immoral and evil and the state will not permit anybody the right to practice evil." Gary Potter (Catholics for Christian Political Action)


"I don't think that witchcraft is a religion. I wish the military would rethink this decision."*

"God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them."

"Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists."

"This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while."
George W Bush



http://adultthought.ucsd.edu/Culture_War/The_American_Taliban.html

 

[Gadawg73]

The Founders definitely did not want the crown influence in the church as most of you have correctly stated here. But you conveniently leave out the other part of your own argument. That is what truly amazes me how blind you folks are.
The flip side was also true. The Founders knew all too well that the flip side of that was if you allowed the crown, or any form of government, to have any powers or influence in any church or religon then that allows that religion to have power and influence over the government. You can never have one without the other as evidenced by the English government they ran from and fought. They knew it first hand.
And they wanted no part of it and all of our laws reflect that.

 

[Valerie]

The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution is part of the Bill of Rights.

The amendment prohibits the making of any law "respecting an establishment of religion", impeding the free exercise of religion, infringing on the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances.

Has the entire history of mankind ever seen a Constitution such as ours?

Was the Constitution not created and inspired by predominantly religious men who by their Christian nature made a point of not designing an exclusive Christian nation?

 

[Sky Dancer]

The Founders definitely did not want the crown influence in the church as most of you have correctly stated here. But you conveniently leave out the other part of your own argument. That is what truly amazes me how blind you folks are.
The flip side was also true. The Founders knew all too well that the flip side of that was if you allowed the crown, or any form of government, to have any powers or influence in any church or religon then that allows that religion to have power and influence over the government. You can never have one without the other as evidenced by the English government they ran from and fought. They knew it first hand.
And they wanted no part of it and all of our laws reflect that.

Exactly. Which is why they left God out of the Constitution and designed our country as a secular nation with religious freedom.

The Bible is not mentioned. We are not a Christian nation in the sense of how we were designed.

It may be convenient for some to call us a Christian country because so many of its citizens are at least nominally Christian. That's vastly different than the intent of the Founders.

 

[Sky Dancer]

The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution is part of the Bill of Rights.

The amendment prohibits the making of any law "respecting an establishment of religion", impeding the free exercise of religion, infringing on the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances.

Has the entire history of mankind ever seen a Constitution such as ours?

Was the Constitution not created and inspired by predominantly religious men who by their Christian nature made a point of not designing an exclusive Christian nation?

No. There is no God in the Consitution. It's a complete fantasy to claim Christian responsibility for a secular document.

 

[AllieBaba]

Read the Constitution. No God there. It's a secular document.

there would be NO Constitution, without the Declaration of Independence....the two go hand in hand....

No.
The Declaration of Independence would be nothing but fodder unless the Founders wrote AND PASSED the US Constitution.
The Declaration of Independence is not law.
Have any of you taken the time to get off your butts and do any research? If you did you would find that EVERY SINGLE ONE of the religous ideas that were proposed to be included in the Constitution WERE VOTED DOWN.
And you still claim we are a nation founded on religion.
Do your homework.

Do your own.
Whether or not religion is in the consititution is NOT the question.

Define "founded". This country was "founded" with the Declaration of Independence.

It was FOUNDED on Christian principles. That does NOT mean we are a theocracy. Nobody has said that. That does NOT mean we don't have religious freedom, we certainly do (a nice Christian tenet). That does NOT mean we must adhere to certain religious ceremonies.

What it DOES mean is IT WAS FOUNDED ON CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLES. The founding fathers discussed religion and Christianity ad nauseum and we have those discussions. They FOUNDED the country on religious principles, but they ultimately decided for us to be free to worship as we please, we could not include religion in our constitution. Wise move. Doesn't change the fact that we are FOUNDED on and firmly rooted in Christianity.

 

[Valerie]

I'd like to see the day a group of non-Christians could come up with anything so enduring for their own people...A country of Muslims for example.

 

[Sky Dancer]

there would be NO Constitution, without the Declaration of Independence....the two go hand in hand....

No.
The Declaration of Independence would be nothing but fodder unless the Founders wrote AND PASSED the US Constitution.
The Declaration of Independence is not law.
Have any of you taken the time to get off your butts and do any research? If you did you would find that EVERY SINGLE ONE of the religous ideas that were proposed to be included in the Constitution WERE VOTED DOWN.
And you still claim we are a nation founded on religion.
Do your homework.

Do your own.
Whether or not religion is in the consititution is NOT the question.

Define "founded". This country was "founded" with the Declaration of Independence.

It was FOUNDED on Christian principles. That does NOT mean we are a theocracy. Nobody has said that. That does NOT mean we don't have religious freedom, we certainly do (a nice Christian tenet). That does NOT mean we must adhere to certain religious ceremonies.

What it DOES mean is IT WAS FOUNDED ON CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLES. The founding fathers discussed religion and Christianity ad nauseum and we have those discussions. They FOUNDED the country on religious principles, but they ultimately decided for us to be free to worship as we please, we could not include religion in our constitution. Wise move. Doesn't change the fact that we are FOUNDED on and firmly rooted in Christianity.

The Constitution is a godless document. Jesus, the Bible and God are absent in it. The Constitution is the document on which our country is founded.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I'd like to see the day a group of non-Christians could come up with anything so enduring for their own people...A country of Muslims for example.

The Constitution is godless. I can't imagine any Christians leaving God out of anything big. I'm not a Christian. What's your beef with non-christians? You have heard of religious freedom haven't you? That's why we have a secular constitution.