The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

[rikules]

Incorrect premise.

We are a Christian nation and have always been.

But keep babbling.

fact: every American has a right to worship ANY religion or NO RELIGION whatsoever!(which is COMPLETELY AGAINST what the christian god DEMANDS!)

fact: there are NO LAWS in America that are CHRISTIAN SPECIFIC laws
(note: there may be laws that are not SPECIFICALLY christian which the christian bible discusses but these laws are NOT based upon the christian gods bad temoer, wicked disposition and irrational beliefs)

fact: most of the LAWSof GOD (leviticus, for example) are NOT laws in America

America is a SECULAR nation

 

[rikules]

no, it isn't

it is merely evidence that MOST elected officials happen to be christians

which makes me think.....

you HATE liberals an ddemocrats....

you believe that liberals and democrats HATE christians and HATE god

and yet
god hating liberals and dmeocrats keep getting elected to office...

does it boither you that god hating liberals and democrats use your christian bible to be sworn in?

(do they spit onthose bibles before they do so?
do they burn them afterwards?)

and
if godhating liberals and democrats keep getting elected to office
does that prove that America is a god hating and christian hating nation?

What is with you and Sky telling me what I think?
I say what I think. I don't need you to re-phrase for me.

So let's talk some more about ad hominems...Sky? Sky?

You called?

I see your point. In one way, because most citizens call themselves Christian we could be called a Christian country. But in another way, we can't. The Founders did not intend to establish religion and the Constitution is godless.

Incredible as it may seem there are certain Christian groups who won't be happy until they create a Christian theocracy.

and alliebabble is one of them

 

[Quantum Windbag]

None the less, Jefferson and Franklin were Deists, not Christians. An important distinction. They took great care to craft governing documents based on reason, not religion.

One more time.

Jefferson was a Christian by his own words, your opinion of his religion has a lot less weight than his words do.

 

[AllieBaba]

no, it isn't

it is merely evidence that MOST elected officials happen to be christians

which makes me think.....

you HATE liberals an ddemocrats....

you believe that liberals and democrats HATE christians and HATE god

and yet
god hating liberals and dmeocrats keep getting elected to office...

does it boither you that god hating liberals and democrats use your christian bible to be sworn in?

(do they spit onthose bibles before they do so?
do they burn them afterwards?)

and
if godhating liberals and democrats keep getting elected to office
does that prove that America is a god hating and christian hating nation?

What is with you and Sky telling me what I think?
I say what I think. I don't need you to re-phrase for me.

So let's talk some more about ad hominems...Sky? Sky?

You called?

I see your point. In one way, because most citizens call themselves Christian we could be called a Christian country. But in another way, we can't. The Founders did not intend to establish religion and the Constitution is godless.

Incredible as it may seem there are certain Christian groups who won't be happy until they create a Christian theocracy.

Nobody said the founders intended to establish a state religion. We said they were Christians and there are reams of evidence that suports their intention to form a nation which would protect the rights of men as delineated in the Bible, and which would provide for all men to worship, openly, as they please, with no fears of repercussions.

 

[Sky Dancer]

None the less, Jefferson and Franklin were Deists, not Christians. An important distinction. They took great care to craft governing documents based on reason, not religion.

One more time.

Jefferson was a Christian by his own words, your opinion of his religion has a lot less weight than his words do.

Jefferson was a Deist. Why do you think he cut and pasted his own bible? Jefferson is well documented. He made many contradictory statements about religion. You draw one conclusion, I draw another.

"Jefferson and Paine, at least, were called atheists in their day, but it was their enemies doing the calling, and the evidence that either was an atheist in any other sense except "a non-believer in revealed Christianity," which the term sometimes meant in the late 1700s, is scant at best. The indisputable fact that they were not in fact orthodox Christians and did not establish an official Christian government is quite sufficient to support the ideas most important to me."
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/buckner_ncn.html


Ben Franklin was definitely a Deist.

Point is the Constitution is godless and drafted upon reason.

 

[Sky Dancer]

What is with you and Sky telling me what I think?
I say what I think. I don't need you to re-phrase for me.

So let's talk some more about ad hominems...Sky? Sky?

You called?

I see your point. In one way, because most citizens call themselves Christian we could be called a Christian country. But in another way, we can't. The Founders did not intend to establish religion and the Constitution is godless.

Incredible as it may seem there are certain Christian groups who won't be happy until they create a Christian theocracy.

Nobody said the founders intended to establish a state religion. We said they were Christians and there are reams of evidence that suports their intention to form a nation which would protect the rights of men as delineated in the Bible, and which would provide for all men to worship, openly, as they please, with no fears of repercussions.

There is no Bible in the Constitution. Our laws were founded on Common Law not the Bible.

 

[AllieBaba]

What is with you and Sky telling me what I think?
I say what I think. I don't need you to re-phrase for me.

So let's talk some more about ad hominems...Sky? Sky?

You called?

I see your point. In one way, because most citizens call themselves Christian we could be called a Christian country. But in another way, we can't. The Founders did not intend to establish religion and the Constitution is godless.

Incredible as it may seem there are certain Christian groups who won't be happy until they create a Christian theocracy.

and alliebabble is one of them

No, Allie certainly is not, liar.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

To those who think it would be better if we agreed to call this a Christian nation, answer these questions:

Do you want agents of any government to make religious decisions for you?
They already are....teaching kids in public schools that homosexuality is ok...is this the work of Christians or Secularists...how free is this?
Do you want any government to help you, directly or indirectly, as you try to persuade others of the truth of your religious beliefs?
How can you separate the elected politician from his beliefs?
Do you believe parents are not always the proper source of religious instruction for young children, and if not, do you want government agents to decide which parents are wrong or inadequate regarding religion?
Evidently the public school system thinks so...
Do you want government agents to try to force a preference for religious beliefs on anyone?
Again...this is already happening....and not by Christians...
Do you believe any government should tax citizens to pay for encouraging others to accept religious beliefs not shared by those being taxed?
Why did the government use my tax money to put foot baths out there for muslims to wash their feet...?
If you answer "No!" you must agree that this is a free country, not a Christian nation.

.

 

[AllieBaba]

Yes, according to Sky nothing good or positive has ever come of Christianity. Hence we are not a Christian nation.
It makes perfect sense if you're in second grade.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Yes, according to Sky nothing good or positive has ever come of Christianity. Hence we are not a Christian nation.
It makes perfect sense if you're in second grade.

Stick to my actual words, Allie. Show me a post where I state that nothing good has ever come from Christianity.

The Sermon on the Mount comes from Christianity, it's beautiful. 'Love others. Do good to those who harm you. Turn the other cheek'

Christians cannot claim the Constitution of the United States. It's godless, secular.

 

[Sky Dancer]

You called?

I see your point. In one way, because most citizens call themselves Christian we could be called a Christian country. But in another way, we can't. The Founders did not intend to establish religion and the Constitution is godless.

Incredible as it may seem there are certain Christian groups who won't be happy until they create a Christian theocracy.

and alliebabble is one of them

No, Allie certainly is not, liar.

You have clearly stated you don't support a Christian theocracy.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

One can rightly say we are a Christian nation...because most of us are Christians and we make up this nation...

How many of these christians would you say attend church and if they do, do you feel they are just going through the motions? How about christians who are living according the teaching of Jesus?

There are very few real christians in the world.

What is a real Christian and who gets to decide?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Deist was a term used back then. Benjamin Franklin used it. God is not in the Constitution. Christ is mentioned nowhere.

I agree with you about religious freedom being a principle in the first amendment. That is NOT a Christian concept. Here is a source about Deism;
Deist Roots of America

Educate yourself about the Dominion movement and you'll see my concerns a bit clearer. They are a dangerous movement toward a Christian theocracy.

Why did they go to Church?

Sky, the fear of us becoming a theocracy is lunacy imho....you are NO CLOSER to this happening at any time in History of our country....we have a constitution that will ALWAYS keep this from happening, and in addition to this, you have fewer Christians than in any time of our History....we have millions of Buddhists, Hindu, Muslim, Hebrew, Wicca, and Atheists. We are a Secular Nation, where one can choose your religion or lack thereof and THIS WILL NOT CHANGE....

so, stop this theocracy PHOBIA Madness....it is just your group of religious thinkers that is trying to unite you in "an enemy", so to give them more power....they get power from your fear....is what I think is going on with you...???

to go through your life in FEAR of such, makes you weak in mind and in body. You should release yourself of such fear, you will be more spiritually whole, without it....from one friend to another.

Care

At least read about dominionism, Care before calling me a lunatic. I'm not pioaranoid. Dominionism starts by claiming the Founders were all Christians and the country was founded on the Bible. It wasn't.

We are a secular nation. God is not mentioned in the Constitution for a good reason. Let's keep it that way.

Yes, I grant you that some of the Founders went to Church. They favored favored a belief in God measured by nature and reason. Not a biblical concept of God.

As to my concerns with the Christian right and dominionist in particular. Pay attention. They own the GOP.

You cannot counter lies with more lies. Why do you insist on lying about the reality that the founders considered themselves Christians just because other people are trying to lie and twist the Constitution to protect Christians above everything else.

The Dominion movement wants to do exactly what you say, but they will have to go through me, and a lot of other people, before they can. You are being paranoid in that you are so worried about them that you twist the truth yourself. Stick to the facts, and use them against them. Otherwise everyone will dismiss you as a lunatic.

 

[Sky Dancer]

One can rightly say we are a Christian nation...because most of us are Christians and we make up this nation...

How many of these christians would you say attend church and if they do, do you feel they are just going through the motions? How about christians who are living according the teaching of Jesus?

There are very few real christians in the world.

What is a real Christian and who gets to decide?

There are cultural Christians and practicing Christians I think is the point. You and Care seem like real Christians to me. Allie too.

I appreciate that you'll all keep an eye on the extremist Christians lest I descend into paranoia and conspiracy theory.

It's been known to happen.

The mega-churches scare me. The Christian Coalition, Focus on the Family, Coral Ridge Ministeries. They have a lot of power and they appear to have taken over the GOP.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

It's a free country, not a Christian nation. The Treaty of Tripoli spelled that out. American citizens are not constitutionally Christians. Quite the contrary. No mention of God in the constitution. The Constitution is in fact the first significant governing charter in the history of mankind that does not invoke any deities, even impersonal ones, for support.

Some Christians would like to change that and make the US a theocracy I've named a few Christian organizations oriented that way.

Thanks for leaving out the foul language. Maybe next time you can avoid the ad hominems.

Nobody said we are constitutionally Christians. That's your own phrase.

Try to concentrate on understanding what people are saying before you head into lala land.

We have never been a Christian nation. The Constitution is godless. We are a secular society.

You keep saying that as if somehow we will come to believe it.....sorry...

...we were a Christian nation right from the start.....the Constitution was based on the existence of God.....and we started off being a very Christian society...and are still today to a great extent...

Secularism did not even exist back in 1776...atheists did not even have a rational explanation for the world until Darwin came along in the next century...thus people were very religious in almost all ways...

However....our founders did not wish to favor one religion over another....they did not want a theocracy....this is why they came to America....to get away from theocratic religions...which is the reason for the no establishment of religion clause...however that certainly didn't mean religious values and principles couldn't become law...in that day there were by and large no other kind of values in existence...

 

[Quantum Windbag]

At this point we need to define god, as god can have many definitions. I will throw my definitions out there, but do not claim them to be correct.

Definitions of god:
Founding fathers: God= reason.
Christians/religion: God = a higher power, something unexplainable, the head of their church.
Modern fundamentalist groups: God = power.

Please feel free to change or critique this list.

Bullshit all across the board. Only idiots ever try to argue that God = reason, and the Founders were not idiots. Christians do not believe God is a higher power, they believe He is a person, and no one things that God = power, because power is something that comes out of an electrical outlet. Why don't you throw out some more trash?

Before you ask me to define God myself, I reject the notion that He needs to be defined, or can be. Before you can ask me to define God you have to be able to define yourself in such a way that someone who has never heard of you would be able to recognize you if they saw you anywhere. You cannot even define yourself in such a way that it make sense to anyone, and you want people to define God.

 

[Father Time]

Secularism did not even exist back in 1776...atheists did not even have a rational explanation for the world until Darwin came along in the next century...thus people were very religious in almost all ways...

There's a difference between secularism and evolution and evolution never attempts to explain how the world started.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Why did they go to Church?

Sky, the fear of us becoming a theocracy is lunacy imho....you are NO CLOSER to this happening at any time in History of our country....we have a constitution that will ALWAYS keep this from happening, and in addition to this, you have fewer Christians than in any time of our History....we have millions of Buddhists, Hindu, Muslim, Hebrew, Wicca, and Atheists. We are a Secular Nation, where one can choose your religion or lack thereof and THIS WILL NOT CHANGE....

so, stop this theocracy PHOBIA Madness....it is just your group of religious thinkers that is trying to unite you in "an enemy", so to give them more power....they get power from your fear....is what I think is going on with you...???

to go through your life in FEAR of such, makes you weak in mind and in body. You should release yourself of such fear, you will be more spiritually whole, without it....from one friend to another.

Care

What you fail to recognize is how much more fundamental and politically powerful christianity is today. 100 years ago, churches were small and rural. Churches nowadays are closer to corporations. Look at new life "church". Churches and their members have become much more radical in their beliefs. This isn't your grandfathers church.

How George W. Bush became the head of the new American Dominionist Church/State

Joan Bokaer, the Director of Theocracy Watch, a project of the Center for Religion, Ethics and Social Policy at Cornell University wrote, “In March 1986, I was on a speaking tour in Iowa and received a copy of the following memo [Pat] Robertson had distributed to the Iowa Republican County Caucus titled, “How to Participate in a Political Party.” It read:

“Rule the world for God.

“Give the impression that you are there to work for the party, not push an ideology.

“Hide your strength.

“Don’t flaunt your Christianity.

“Christians need to take leadership positions. Party officers control political parties and so it is very important that mature Christians have a majority of leadership positions whenever possible, God willing.”[12]
The Despoiling Of America

 

[Sky Dancer]

Nobody said we are constitutionally Christians. That's your own phrase.

Try to concentrate on understanding what people are saying before you head into lala land.

We have never been a Christian nation. The Constitution is godless. We are a secular society.

You keep saying that as if somehow we will come to believe it.....sorry...

...we were a Christian nation right from the start.....the Constitution was based on the existence of God.....and we started off being a very Christian society...and are still today to a great extent...

Secularism did not even exist back in 1776...atheists did not even have a rational explanation for the world until Darwin came along in the next century...thus people were very religious in almost all ways...

However....our founders did not wish to favor one religion over another....they did not want a theocracy....this is why they came to America....to get away from theocratic religions...which is the reason for the no establishment of religion clause...however that certainly didn't mean religious values and principles couldn't become law...in that day there were by and large no other kind of values in existence...

Are you talking about the Pilgrims? The Anglican Church? They came to America and immediately oppressed the Quakers.

That's why there is no mention of God in the Constitution.

The government is secular. No divine kings here.

 

[AllieBaba]

How many of these christians would you say attend church and if they do, do you feel they are just going through the motions? How about christians who are living according the teaching of Jesus?

There are very few real christians in the world.

What is a real Christian and who gets to decide?

There are cultural Christians and practicing Christians I think is the point. You and Care seem like real Christians to me. Allie too.

I appreciate that you'll all keep an eye on the extremist Christians lest I descend into paranoia and conspiracy theory.

It's been known to happen.

The mega-churches scare me. The Christian Coalition, Focus on the Family, Coral Ridge Ministeries. They have a lot of power and they appear to have taken over the GOP.

No, they haven't.
And they have a lot less power than Planned Parenthood.