The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

[Gadawg73]

Whether or not we're a Christian NATION has nothing to do with whether or not we were founded on Christian tenets.

Exactly.
But you still have societal mores confused with nation being founded.The nation was founded in trhe Continental Congress and Christianity had nothing to do with writing the Constitution and the seperation of powers.
The societal mores of this country when founded were pretty much the same as they were the year before we were founded.
Christian.
But societal mores and their religous biases, positives and negatives, did not found the government and laws.

 

[bodecea]

This thread has saddened me .

I'm sorry. I tried to let you down gently.

Well , you are correct that you are the reason this thread saddened me. You're a liar. PERIOD. You attribute statements to people that they never made, you make up facts, you twist quotes. You deny facts.

You're pathetic, and it has nothing to do with the fact that you disagree with me on this particular thread. I found myself in agreement with your belief in a different thread earlier, but still realized that you're just a dishonest poster. You disgust me, how can we EVER have an honest discourse in this country when people refuse to be honest?


Oh, and it has come to my attention that you are in fact a female, and I had been calling you a guy all along. Apologies for that.

Interesting post considering you said earlier than Hitler never claimed to be a Christian after I had linked to you quotes that he had said that very thing.

I guess that it's just a case of you calling people liars NOT because they lie, but because you don't like what you hear. You're not the only one. But...it does make you appear dishonest when you use the word so inaccurately.

 

[bodecea]

Tommy Jefferson 1814 after he cut up the Bible and had his cut and paste "Jefferson's Bible":
"The whole history of these books is so defective and doubtful, evidence that parts have proceeded from an extraodinary man and that other parts are of the fabric of inferior minds."

A perfect example that you can find quotes from our Founders on BOTH sides of the issue. That makes them.......politicians.

 

[bodecea]

Tommy Jefferson 1814 after he cut up the Bible and had his cut and paste "Jefferson's Bible":
"The whole history of these books is so defective and doubtful, evidence that parts have proceeded from an extraodinary man and that other parts are of the fabric of inferior minds."

Once again..their personal faith has nothing to do with the FACT that they founded the country on Christian tenets.

Lonestar disagrees with you and much of my arguement in the last few pages have been addressing his assertion that their personal faith was the proof.

 

[bodecea]

M'eh, that is proof of nothing brother. I myself find it hard to credit the entire Bible as being fact, but I am a Christian.

I am Christian also so how does both of us being Christian make a nation founded on religion?
Or a lot of Founders being Christian?
When has Congress ever passed legislation based on Christianity?

It's verifiable fact that 92% of the men who signed the DoI were Christians. They have NEVER passed a law based on Christianity because those Christians decided in their infinite wisdom that although we as a nation believe in God that we would NEVER have a law dictating that anyone MUST do so.

And?

 

[froggy]

The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity
Many Christian's who think of America as founded upon Christianity usually present the Declaration of Independence as "proof" of a Christian America. ...
The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity - Cached - Similar

Our Founding Fathers Were NOT Christians They were men of The Enlightenment, not men of Christianity. .... Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural .... He led the men who turned America from an English colony into a self-governing nation. ...
Thomas Jefferson - John Adams - Benjamin Franklin - Thomas Painefreethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html - Cached - Similar

http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html


Religious Affiliation of U.S. Founding Fathers.
Episcopalian/Anglican 88 54.7%
Presbyterian 30 18.6%
Congregationalist 27 16.8%
Quaker 7 4.3%
Dutch Reformed/German Reformed 6 3.7%
Lutheran 5 3.1%
Catholic 3 1.9%
Huguenot 3 1.9%
Unitarian 3 1.9%
Methodist 2 1.2%
Calvinist 1 0.6%
TOTAL 204

appears the majority were religious.

 

[AllieBaba]

Whether or not we're a Christian NATION has nothing to do with whether or not we were founded on Christian tenets.

Exactly.
But you still have societal mores confused with nation being founded.The nation was founded in trhe Continental Congress and Christianity had nothing to do with writing the Constitution and the seperation of powers.
The societal mores of this country when founded were pretty much the same as they were the year before we were founded.
Christian.
But societal mores and their religous biases, positives and negatives, did not found the government and laws.

No, I'm NOT confusing societal mores with the foundation of our government.

The foundation of the nation did not take place solely in the Continental Congress. The foundation of our nation started when a group of men decided to break from England and become independent. And the activities and discussion that took place from that time on is well recorded...and all the ff stated, repeatedly, during that time, and after, and since...that they FOUNDED THE COUNTRY UPON CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLE.

 

[AllieBaba]

Tommy Jefferson 1814 after he cut up the Bible and had his cut and paste "Jefferson's Bible":
"The whole history of these books is so defective and doubtful, evidence that parts have proceeded from an extraodinary man and that other parts are of the fabric of inferior minds."

Once again..their personal faith has nothing to do with the FACT that they founded the country on Christian tenets.

Lonestar disagrees with you and much of my arguement in the last few pages have been addressing his assertion that their personal faith was the proof.

Even if that were true, so what? The loons who want to pretend the FF were either lying or ignorant are the ones who keep carping about how they weren't necessarily Christian.

 

[Gadawg73]

Whether or not we're a Christian NATION has nothing to do with whether or not we were founded on Christian tenets.

Exactly.
But you still have societal mores confused with nation being founded.The nation was founded in trhe Continental Congress and Christianity had nothing to do with writing the Constitution and the seperation of powers.
The societal mores of this country when founded were pretty much the same as they were the year before we were founded.
Christian.
But societal mores and their religous biases, positives and negatives, did not found the government and laws.

No, I'm NOT confusing societal mores with the foundation of our government.

The foundation of the nation did not take place solely in the Continental Congress. The foundation of our nation started when a group of men decided to break from England and become independent. And the activities and discussion that took place from that time on is well recorded...and all the ff stated, repeatedly, during that time, and after, and since...that they FOUNDED THE COUNTRY UPON CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLE.

"Independent"
Exactly
Independence from the religous stranglehold on government where they came from.

 

[bodecea]

The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity
Many Christian's who think of America as founded upon Christianity usually present the Declaration of Independence as "proof" of a Christian America. ...
The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity - Cached - Similar

Our Founding Fathers Were NOT Christians They were men of The Enlightenment, not men of Christianity. .... Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural .... He led the men who turned America from an English colony into a self-governing nation. ...
Thomas Jefferson - John Adams - Benjamin Franklin - Thomas Painefreethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html - Cached - Similar

Religion of the Founding Fathers of America


Religious Affiliation of U.S. Founding Fathers.
Episcopalian/Anglican 88 54.7%
Presbyterian 30 18.6%
Congregationalist 27 16.8%
Quaker 7 4.3%
Dutch Reformed/German Reformed 6 3.7%
Lutheran 5 3.1%
Catholic 3 1.9%
Huguenot 3 1.9%
Unitarian 3 1.9%
Methodist 2 1.2%
Calvinist 1 0.6%
TOTAL 204

appears the majority were religious.

I don't think you would find any argument over that Froggy...however, where is the evidence that the U.S. was founded upon Christian tenets?


You'd think those Christian tenets would easily be pointed out.

 

[bodecea]

Exactly.
But you still have societal mores confused with nation being founded.The nation was founded in trhe Continental Congress and Christianity had nothing to do with writing the Constitution and the seperation of powers.
The societal mores of this country when founded were pretty much the same as they were the year before we were founded.
Christian.
But societal mores and their religous biases, positives and negatives, did not found the government and laws.

No, I'm NOT confusing societal mores with the foundation of our government.

The foundation of the nation did not take place solely in the Continental Congress. The foundation of our nation started when a group of men decided to break from England and become independent. And the activities and discussion that took place from that time on is well recorded...and all the ff stated, repeatedly, during that time, and after, and since...that they FOUNDED THE COUNTRY UPON CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLE.

"Independent"
Exactly
Independence from the religous stranglehold on government where they came from.

Exactly. They had SEEN what happens when countries were founded and run upon Christian tenets....(you see, the sticky wicket is WHOSE Christian tenets do you use?)...and they wisely decided to get away from that completely in the founding of our government. That doesn't mean they abandoned Christianity in their own lives....but they made our government Christian...religion...neutral. A very, very wise move.

 

[peach174]

The point is,that in order to remain a free nation and have civility in society,each and every citizen must
Think for yourself
Govern Yourself
Be responsible
Be accountable for your actions and word
take care of your neighbors
Have values and character
There will always be a minority who would never do this ,(criminals)
But these things must be taught to our young in order to have a civil society.
This is no longer being taught
Look at what is happening to our society.
Rioting in restaurants - people are no longer being responsible or accountable for their actions or words
Taking care of neighbors - is becoming like Hitlers regime where you turn your neighbors in (socialism) the only difference here is they are not being rounded up into camps and being killed - report to authority's that children do not have permits to sell lemonade or cookies this is just the top of many other types of turning your neighbor in to the authorities.
Have values and character - we have media ,news and internet publications that will not report true and accurate news.
Our 1st Amendment says the right of the people to assemble peacefully to petition the Government not riot in the streets and destroy things.
Without these teachings you must then have a government who takes over.
You have now lost your freedom when Government starts telling you what you can and cannot do.

 

[AllieBaba]

No, I'm NOT confusing societal mores with the foundation of our government.

The foundation of the nation did not take place solely in the Continental Congress. The foundation of our nation started when a group of men decided to break from England and become independent. And the activities and discussion that took place from that time on is well recorded...and all the ff stated, repeatedly, during that time, and after, and since...that they FOUNDED THE COUNTRY UPON CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLE.

"Independent"
Exactly
Independence from the religous stranglehold on government where they came from.

Exactly. They had SEEN what happens when countries were founded and run upon Christian tenets....(you see, the sticky wicket is WHOSE Christian tenets do you use?)...and they wisely decided to get away from that completely in the founding of our government. That doesn't mean they abandoned Christianity in their own lives....but they made our government Christian...religion...neutral. A very, very wise move.

You don't understand the language, do you?

They hadn't seen what happened when countries were founded upon Christian tenets. They had seen what happened when the state interfered with religion and worship.

Two different things.

Again, you don't seem to understand what "found" means.

"
To the end of his life, Jefferson was a firm believer in the natural rights of the individual. In his words, "The God who gave us life gave us liberty at the same time: the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them." One of the most significant expressions of that conviction was his authorship of Virginia's Statute for Religious Freedom, which he always considered one of his greatest accomplishments."
Spotlight Biography: Founding Fathers

"An Act for establishing religious Freedom.
Whereas, Almighty God hath created the mind free;
that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens, or by civil incapacitations tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and therefore are a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, who being Lord, both of body and mind yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power to do,
that the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavouring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time;
that to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves is sinful and tyrannical;
that even the forcing him to support this or that teacher of his own religious persuasion is depriving him of the comfortable liberty of giving his contributions to the particular pastor, whose morals he would make his pattern, and whose powers he feels most persuasive to righteousness, and is withdrawing from the Ministry those temporary rewards, which, proceeding from an approbation of their personal conduct are an additional incitement to earnest and unremitting labours for the instruction of mankind;
that our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions any more than our opinions in physics or geometry,
that therefore the proscribing any citizen as unworthy the public confidence, by laying upon him an incapacity of being called to offices of trust and emolument, unless he profess or renounce this or that religious opinion, is depriving him injuriously of those privileges and advantages, to which, in common with his fellow citizens, he has a natural right,
that it tends only to corrupt the principles of that very Religion it is meant to encourage, by bribing with a monopoly of worldly honours and emoluments those who will externally profess and conform to it;
that though indeed, these are criminal who do not withstand such temptation, yet neither are those innocent who lay the bait in their way;
that to suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency is a dangerous fallacy which at once destroys all religious liberty because he being of course judge of that tendency will make his opinions the rule of judgment and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own;
that it is time enough for the rightful purposes of civil government, for its officers to interfere when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order;
and finally, that Truth is great, and will prevail if left to herself, that she is the proper and sufficient antagonist to error, and has nothing to fear from the conflict, unless by human interposition disarmed of her natural weapons free argument and debate, errors ceasing to be dangerous when it is permitted freely to contradict them:
Be it enacted by General Assembly that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of Religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge or affect their civil capacities. And though we well know that this Assembly elected by the people for the ordinary purposes of Legislation only, have no power to restrain the acts of succeeding Assemblies constituted with powers equal to our own, and that therefore to declare this act irrevocable would be of no effect in law; yet we are free to declare, and do declare that the rights hereby asserted, are of the natural rights of mankind, and that if any act shall be hereafter passed to repeal the present or to narrow its operation, such act will be an infringement of natural right. "

Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[AllieBaba]

The founding fathers were quite definite that they were motivated by, and founded this country in, Christian belief.

So again, I ask you...were they lying, Bod? YOu refuse to address the fact that they said, specifically, that they founded the country on Christian principle. You insist they did not. So...what was their motivation for lying? If, as you imply, it is just a matter of appealing to the masses, why on earth would they reference God in their personal correspondence with other founding fathers, their wives, their families and their friends? It was the touchstone of everything they did, and their touchstone when determining what freedom means and how it should be protected.

 

[bodecea]

The founding fathers were quite definite that they were motivated by, and founded this country in, Christian belief.

So again, I ask you...were they lying, Bod? YOu refuse to address the fact that they said, specifically, that they founded the country on Christian principle. You insist they did not. So...what was their motivation for lying? If, as you imply, it is just a matter of appealing to the masses, why on earth would they reference God in their personal correspondence with other founding fathers, their wives, their families and their friends? It was the touchstone of everything they did, and their touchstone when determining what freedom means and how it should be protected.

Words....Allie. Where is the substance?


If, as you say, our Founders founded this country in Christian beliefs....those would be.........?

People say and write all sorts of things...the proof is in the Constitution. The proof is in our laws. The proof is in how our country was and is run. Where is that proof?

 

[bodecea]

The point is,that in order to remain a free nation and have civility in society,each and every citizen must
Think for yourself
Govern Yourself
Be responsible
Be accountable for your actions and word
take care of your neighbors
Have values and character
There will always be a minority who would never do this ,(criminals)
But these things must be taught to our young in order to have a civil society.
This is no longer being taught
Look at what is happening to our society.
Rioting in restaurants - people are no longer being responsible or accountable for their actions or words
Taking care of neighbors - is becoming like Hitlers regime where you turn your neighbors in (socialism) the only difference here is they are not being rounded up into camps and being killed - report to authority's that children do not have permits to sell lemonade or cookies this is just the top of many other types of turning your neighbor in to the authorities.
Have values and character - we have media ,news and internet publications that will not report true and accurate news.
Our 1st Amendment says the right of the people to assemble peacefully to petition the Government not riot in the streets and destroy things.
Without these teachings you must then have a government who takes over.
You have now lost your freedom when Government starts telling you what you can and cannot do.

Are these dictated thru our Constitution, laws, actions of our government? Are these things that are unique to our country?

 

[AllieBaba]

As I said, you don't understand the language.

Our country wasn't founded just upon the Constitution. There was a lot of groundwork prior...and THAT is the foundation.

Again you prove you're dishonest.

 

[editec]

Allie, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Ever hear of the AGE OF ENLIGHTENMENT?

Do you have a clue what it means?

Well I can assure you the founding fathers understood it and they understood exactly what it mean in relation to Christian values, too.

READ A BOOK, honey.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

And yet, using the EXACT SAME criteria, he cannot say the same thing about the Third Reich. You don't think he's being a wee bit inconsistent, do you?

If all the founding fathers were christians I'd understand but they weren't, I wouldn't be able to say beyond a shadow of a doubt that people who aren't christian would label some of their principles as being christian in nature.

Again some of the founding fathers did what they did based on principles they'd deem as christian, others weren't and wouldn't deem them as christian. I dunno why that's offensive to some people to say that non-christians wouldn't label their principles as christian. Seems pretty basic to me.

Which of the founding fathers did not believe in God?

Still waiting on an answer Dr. Drock.

Dr. Drock

 

[AllieBaba]

Allie, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Ever hear of the AGE OF ENLIGHTENMENT?

Do you have a clue what it means?

Well I can assure you the founding fathers understood it and they understood exactly what it mean in relation to Christian values, too.

READ A BOOK, honey.

So Jefferson was lying when he said freedom comes from God?

And when he, and many, many others, said he was founding the country on that basic Christian belief?

Or are you going to say that he didn't understand what "Christian" means?

Lol..I'm amazed at the arrogance, and stupidity, of modern day Christian-haters who think anybody takes them seriously when they attempt to tell us what the founding fathers REALLY meant, lol.

You and Bod ain't no Jefferson and Adams, honey.