The Ultimate Tool for Redemption

[DriftingSand]

That is false. Once you have children, you aren't responsible for them committing crimes once they are adult. You aren't responsible for burying your parents when they die but we do because we love them. It doesn't follow.

If you knew your children would rebel and end up in eternal agony, would you still have them? Or, because you apparently have the power to do whatever you want, would you manipulate circumstances to keep them from suffering?
God knew people would be damned, but he made them exactly the same way. He refuses to use his power to save us.
Jesus may have came to save us, but that success was limited. In your reasoning, people still go to Hell. God didn't fix anything. He just gave people like you excuses and weak arguments to use against rationality and reason.

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

There are sheep and there are goats. I believe God created sheep. I don't believe God created goats.

Jesus said that some are of their father the devil.

Maybe some of our DNA got mixed up when Adam ate that apple. Some are sheep and others are goats. It wasn't God's doing. It was the serpent's doing.

Genesis 3:15 may be of interest where DNA is concerned. It does seem to "jive" with John 8:44 and Matthew 12:34.

Matthew 12:34, "O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh."

The word "generation" is worth looking at.

 

[DriftingSand]

If you knew your children would rebel and end up in eternal agony, would you still have them? Or, because you apparently have the power to do whatever you want, would you manipulate circumstances to keep them from suffering?
God knew people would be damned, but he made them exactly the same way. He refuses to use his power to save us.
Jesus may have came to save us, but that success was limited. In your reasoning, people still go to Hell. God didn't fix anything. He just gave people like you excuses and weak arguments to use against rationality and reason.

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

There are sheep and there are goats. I believe God created sheep. I don't believe God created goats.

Jesus said that some are of their father the devil.

Maybe some of our DNA got mixed up when Adam ate that apple. Some are sheep and others are goats. It wasn't God's doing. It was the serpent's doing.

So there is a different creator that made some things?

Nope. God created Adam and Eve and God created the angels.

Note that the angels were able to produce offspring when they mated with human females prior to the great flood.

Genesis 6:4, "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."

So it seems, based on a close study of Scripture, that different "kinds" were able to cohabitate and produce young (the Nephilim or "giants"). One of God's first natural "laws" was the law of "kind after its own kind" and "seed in itself" (Genesis chapter 1). That was God's will, plan, and purpose for the various organisms of the earth.

But look what He has to say in Genesis 3:15:

Genesis 3:15, "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

What are these "seeds?" Seed is offspring.

Thus we have the "sheep" and the "goats" (metaphorically speaking).

 

[CorvusRexus]

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

There are sheep and there are goats. I believe God created sheep. I don't believe God created goats.

Jesus said that some are of their father the devil.

Maybe some of our DNA got mixed up when Adam ate that apple. Some are sheep and others are goats. It wasn't God's doing. It was the serpent's doing.

But God created Satan and knew that would happen, thus, God is still responsible.

No. You can have children. Are they always going to do good? Do you hold yourself responsible for their mistakes? No.

I put together equipment one time. Another person at the company started the process. The equipment destroyed itself. Is it my fault? You can't be held liable for lets say...using a cash register and it breaking on its own. You can't be held responsible for breaks wearing out. Does your employer expect you to never use the breaks on a company car?

They were taught to guard the garden. It was their choice to disobey. It wasn't God's choice for them to disobey.

Please do me a favor and use my entire statement when quoting please or quote multiple statements, it saves me the trouble of going back through and finding my exact statement so I know precisely what I said. If you don't want to, fine, do what you will.

Imagine you designed and constructed a car knowing full well it would have a horrible defect that would ruin the lives of millions of people, yet released it anyway without repairing the problem. Even if you gave out replacement parts that fixed the problem, you still waited years to give it out. And once you gave out the parts, you only told a select few and instructed them to tell all of the car owners in the world about them. Still, decades later, less than half of the owners have the replacement parts while the others are horrendously injured and lose their lives by the dozens. Plus, I'm pretty sure you- as the designer- would have been called into court to explain, been sued into oblivion, and probably even charged with something severe. But you use the people who have the parts to claim that since you have given them out, you are exonerated, yet others proclaim your guilt because you knew this would happen and responded inadequately. I'm sure you would agree, in this hypothetical scenario the designer is clearly at fault.



God designed us with the defect of sin, and created us anyway. He waited millennia to give us the cure, Jesus. Even then, not everyone was given the Word of God and his saving message, and millions of people were doomed to burn in Hell. When God is called to explain himself, blind followers declare his innocence due to a simple and somewhat ineffective- not to mention late- response. God is thus at fault here.


Matthew 15:14
Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit."

 

[CorvusRexus]

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

There are sheep and there are goats. I believe God created sheep. I don't believe God created goats.

Jesus said that some are of their father the devil.

Maybe some of our DNA got mixed up when Adam ate that apple. Some are sheep and others are goats. It wasn't God's doing. It was the serpent's doing.

But God created Satan and knew that would happen, thus, God is still responsible.

My stepmother went to the pharmacist and got the wrong medicine and she totalled her car. She couldn't hold the pharmacist responsible legally. Ask a lawyer these things. Why do you think that is? Because there is a mutual responsibility to read her name and since she didn't, the pharmacist couldn't be held responsible.

God said don't eat from the tree. Adam didn't listen.

God put the tree there, created Adam with the ability to be corrupted, placed the snake there, and apparently knew exactly what was going to happen.
Thus, it is still God's fault.

 

[PainefulTruth]

I'm saying that if you don't care about those on death row then don't bother me about the justice of God.

I do care. I don't think they should have to suffer for all eternity to satisfy the sadistic desires of people who should probably share their fate for their self-righteous sentences.

 

[Chuckt]

I'm saying that if you don't care about those on death row then don't bother me about the justice of God.

I do care. I don't think they should have to suffer for all eternity to satisfy the sadistic desires of people who should probably share their fate for their self-righteous sentences.

I am glad that you care. They are locked up because society cannot deal with them. I wouldn't even know how to deal with them. I've read stories of Christian ministers visiting people in jail and the person they are visiting gets a cup, fills it with toilet water and throws it on them.

One time a co worker of mine had his car stolen and he needed help. The meth clinic had cameras so I went inside to see if they had any evidence of who stole his car on camera. What I saw was a couple people screaming and yelling at each other with emotional problems.

Most people are not trained to deal with this and unfortunately in a free country people will destroy themselves and others before they listen to others. It is called being a fool.

I was at an independent living place for someone moving out of it and into a place where there were workers. We literally spent days going through everything and threw 36 bags of trash out because this person cannot throw anything out. And we know another hoarder who is worse.

I've had other friends who needed help and people get scared because their problems are over the top. I have another friend who takes in homeless because she is a Christian who was homeless. They literally steal from her and spend hours on the phone running up her bill.

The solution is easy. They have to repent and it is no different for felons than it is for people on their way to hell. You can pick up sick pups if you want but until they repent, it won't do much for them.

You can't fix someone who loves darkness.

 

[PainefulTruth]

The solution is easy. They have to repent and it is no different for felons than it is for people on their way to hell. You can pick up sick pups if you want but until they repent, it won't do much for them.

Exactly, genuine repentance is their only salvation.

You can't fix someone who loves darkness.

True again. Some people just want to watch the world burn. There's no reasoning with them. Oblivion is the only option, oblivion is their only option.

 

[Chuckt]

The solution is easy. They have to repent and it is no different for felons than it is for people on their way to hell. You can pick up sick pups if you want but until they repent, it won't do much for them.

Exactly, genuine repentance is their only salvation.

You can't fix someone who loves darkness.

True again. Some people just want to watch the world burn. There's no reasoning with them. Oblivion is the only option, oblivion is their only option.

Sometimes you have to let them fail for them to come to the end of their self will. For my friend it meant almost dying.

A lot of times helping means fueling. I had a friend who said she was a secretary and it turns out that she was really a sex worker with a substance abuse problem. Helping someone in that situation without getting treatment means empowering them to continue.

When they start thinking that welfare is their answer, other people are ready to help when what it is doing is empowering them for substance abuse.

The social answer is not the answer. It is a spiritual answer.

 

[CorvusRexus]

The solution is easy. They have to repent and it is no different for felons than it is for people on their way to hell. You can pick up sick pups if you want but until they repent, it won't do much for them.

Exactly, genuine repentance is their only salvation.

You can't fix someone who loves darkness.

True again. Some people just want to watch the world burn. There's no reasoning with them. Oblivion is the only option, oblivion is their only option.

There is a big difference between wanting oblivion and darkness, and being damned to an eternity of suffering.

 

[Chuckt]

The solution is easy. They have to repent and it is no different for felons than it is for people on their way to hell. You can pick up sick pups if you want but until they repent, it won't do much for them.

Exactly, genuine repentance is their only salvation.

You can't fix someone who loves darkness.

True again. Some people just want to watch the world burn. There's no reasoning with them. Oblivion is the only option, oblivion is their only option.

There is a big difference between wanting oblivion and darkness, and being damned to an eternity of suffering.

How do you frame your relationships?

Do we see our spouse as someone who does something wrong and that we shouldn't love them?

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

I'm supposed to love my wife as Christ loved the church.

Titus 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

My wife is supposed to love her husband.

If she said, "well you don't know what it is like to be with him" then what that does is frame someone in a condition that we already can't get along with instead of framing someone in a condition that we can get along with.

This is where prejudice comes in. Because of prejudice, people can't love other people because they're "this" or they're "that".

When you frame God, what are you saying?

You're saying that He doesn't love you. You're saying that it doesn't matter that he committed His son to die for you. You are saying that He isn't kind to the evil.

In your non-relationship with God, God did more for you than you did for Him. He framed you as someone that He loves and died for to save. You are framing Him as someone who is unworthy. Who is more fair to whom? God is more fair to you.

 

[Newby]

I accept your lack of defense as an admission.

Do I look like I care? Seriously? You just can't help yourself, can you?

I whistle and like a good little puppy, you come running!

We know you don't care.
The question is why?
You claim Christ as the leader of your life, and then ignore anything to do with him.
Why not just get it over with and leave the lie behind.Be the unrepentent bully you want to be, and are, and don't be faced with the obvious hypocrisy of your online persona and your pretended beliefs.

And here you go folks, all of those accusations about how Christians are always trying to harass people to believe as they do, and here we have the truest example of when that typically happens, and he ain't no christian.

 

[Newby]

Again, we don't answer to internet worms who think they have the answers for us. We answer to God, and to Him alone.

I don't think you truly conceive of how little your approval means to the people of God...or perhaps you do understand, and that's what makes you so batshit insane over the subject matter of religion.

I never ask why people don't conform to my vision.I always ask why they jettison the vision described in their scriptures.
Mysteriously, they always get very offended by that.

A blatant lie: You absolutely asked why two posts above.

We know you don't care.
The question is why?
You claim Christ as the leader of your life, and then ignore anything to do with him.
Why not just get it over with and leave the lie behind.
Be the unrepentent bully you want to be, and are, and don't be faced with the obvious hypocrisy of your online persona and your pretended beliefs.

 

[CorvusRexus]

Exactly, genuine repentance is their only salvation.



True again. Some people just want to watch the world burn. There's no reasoning with them. Oblivion is the only option, oblivion is their only option.

There is a big difference between wanting oblivion and darkness, and being damned to an eternity of suffering.

How do you frame your relationships?

Do we see our spouse as someone who does something wrong and that we shouldn't love them?

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

I'm supposed to love my wife as Christ loved the church.

Titus 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

My wife is supposed to love her husband.

If she said, "well you don't know what it is like to be with him" then what that does is frame someone in a condition that we already can't get along with instead of framing someone in a condition that we can get along with.

This is where prejudice comes in. Because of prejudice, people can't love other people because they're "this" or they're "that".

When you frame God, what are you saying?

You're saying that He doesn't love you. You're saying that it doesn't matter that he committed His son to die for you. You are saying that He isn't kind to the evil.

In your non-relationship with God, God did more for you than you did for Him. He framed you as someone that He loves and died for to save. You are framing Him as someone who is unworthy. Who is more fair to whom? God is more fair to you.

Chuckt, I am not married, first of all. Plenty of time left in my life to do that. But as I am in a relationship, I understand the point you are trying to make.
So, what you are saying is, only love your wife if she loves you back?
Because that seems to be what you are saying about God. Only through respecting God will He be nice to you. Cross him or disrespect Him, and you suffer for eternity.

Imagine you are at a restaurant and you see a nice old man paying the tab for a much younger man he doesn't even know. This young man then leaves, without thanking the anonymous philanthropist whom he does not know, the old man. Suddenly, the old man flips out and goes on a rampage and shoots the young man.
In case you don't understand, God paid the man's tab by having Jesus die on the Cross, and when the man can't recognize God and thus can't find him, God murders him, ie sends him to Hell.
People who reject God never asked his son to die on the cross for them. Thus, they should not have to repay Him with their devotion if the really don't wish to. However, they still shouldn't go to Heaven, nor be damned for refusing to kneel.

 

[Chuckt]

Chuckt, I am not married, first of all. Plenty of time left in my life to do that. But as I am in a relationship, I understand the point you are trying to make.
So, what you are saying is, only love your wife if she loves you back?
Because that seems to be what you are saying about God. Only through respecting God will He be nice to you. Cross him or disrespect Him, and you suffer for eternity.

Imagine you are at a restaurant and you see a nice old man paying the tab for a much younger man he doesn't even know. This young man then leaves, without thanking the anonymous philanthropist whom he does not know, the old man. Suddenly, the old man flips out and goes on a rampage and shoots the young man.
In case you don't understand, God paid the man's tab by having Jesus die on the Cross, and when the man can't recognize God and thus can't find him, God murders him, ie sends him to Hell.
People who reject God never asked his son to die on the cross for them. Thus, they should not have to repay Him with their devotion if the really don't wish to. However, they still shouldn't go to Heaven, nor be damned for refusing to kneel.

There will come a time in people's lives where love dies and the purpose of marriage is to keep love alive. If love dies and you treat your spouse as you treat God, then you probably won't stay married. The idea you stated, "only respecting your partner and he/she will be nice to you" is probably a good one if you want to stay married.

I think your analogy isn't one about God. God made everything good. You think that no one should kneel. Cain didn't kneel and killed his brother. Satan took one third of the angels in his rebellion. Hitler didn't kneel. Why do we salute the flag and say the pledge of allegiance? Because we have to have order and that is the only thing separating us from the opposite of what we should stand for.

Man can't govern himself in case you haven't noticed. We've had two world wars and several wars with many countries involved. If God wasn't restraining the evil, why should I think God was moral and see it your way for God to allow his creation to continue?

 

[Chuckt]

People who reject God never asked his son to die on the cross for them. Thus, they should not have to repay Him with their devotion if the really don't wish to. However, they still shouldn't go to Heaven, nor be damned for refusing to kneel.

I have a whole CD to go through on man through the ages and how God dealt with man.

The first dispensation is the Dispensation of Innocence. If my parents weren't so messed up, I wouldn't be such a sinner. The problem was that Adam and Eve were perfect parents and they wandered.

The second Dispensation is the Dispensation of Conscience.

It lasted 650 years because it spanned from the fall of man to the flood. The idea is "live and let live" or do what is right with you and I'll do what is right with me and we'll just live in harmony. Where have I heard that before? It sounds New Age, like the 60's or like the Wiccan rede:

"An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will"-Wiccan Rede

"Follow your conscience" is where they ended up:

The whole world was filled with violence.
They were having sexual relations with demonic spirits.
There were giants in the earth.
God looked down and the world was perverted except Noah.
This idea of live and let live...do your own thing.

It doesn't work in our culture so we have evidence from the culture in the Bible and we can read the news headlines today where people are dieing or where there is crime in the news. The life of 'follow your conscience' is going to be today:

Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

We're seeing a replay of the Bible in all the systems of rules and judgments that God set up and what I'm seeing is that man cannot govern Himself and refusing to bow means that you would be against the kindness in His kingdom and more perfect beings like 1/3rd of the angels rebelled so where does that leave you?

 

[Chuckt]

Chuckt, I am not married, first of all. Plenty of time left in my life to do that. But as I am in a relationship, I understand the point you are trying to make.
So, what you are saying is, only love your wife if she loves you back?
Because that seems to be what you are saying about God. Only through respecting God will He be nice to you. Cross him or disrespect Him, and you suffer for eternity.

Imagine you are at a restaurant and you see a nice old man paying the tab for a much younger man he doesn't even know. This young man then leaves, without thanking the anonymous philanthropist whom he does not know, the old man. Suddenly, the old man flips out and goes on a rampage and shoots the young man.
In case you don't understand, God paid the man's tab by having Jesus die on the Cross, and when the man can't recognize God and thus can't find him, God murders him, ie sends him to Hell.
People who reject God never asked his son to die on the cross for them. Thus, they should not have to repay Him with their devotion if the really don't wish to. However, they still shouldn't go to Heaven, nor be damned for refusing to kneel.

There will come a time in people's lives where love dies and the purpose of marriage is to keep love alive. If love dies and you treat your spouse as you treat God, then you probably won't stay married. The idea you stated, "only respecting your partner and he/she will be nice to you" is probably a good one if you want to stay married.

So lets say God accepts you into His kingdom and then one day someone does something that you don't like. Let's say that they didn't do anything wrong but you didn't like it.

Only respecting the kingdom if it does what you want means that you would eventually fight and then damage it somehow. Who else did that? Satan took a third of the angels.

God already knows so He set the rules because He already knows what will take to make His kingdom work.

Refusing to bow means that you wouldn't respect the rule of God and that you would eventually go against His kingdom.

 

[PainefulTruth]

The solution is easy. They have to repent and it is no different for felons than it is for people on their way to hell. You can pick up sick pups if you want but until they repent, it won't do much for them.

Exactly, genuine repentance is their only salvation.

You can't fix someone who loves darkness.

True again. Some people just want to watch the world burn. There's no reasoning with them. Oblivion is the only option, oblivion is their only option.

Sometimes you have to let them fail for them to come to the end of their self will. For my friend it meant almost dying.

True. You can only advise someone not to harm themself. But its our duty to keep them from doing harm to others.

A lot of times helping means fueling. I had a friend who said she was a secretary and it turns out that she was really a sex worker with a substance abuse problem. Helping someone in that situation without getting treatment means empowering them to continue.

Yes, withholding aid is the only form of tough love we can morally use with adults.

The solution is easy. They have to repent and it is no different for felons than it is for people on their way to hell. You can pick up sick pups if you want but until they repent, it won't do much for them.

Exactly, genuine repentance is their only salvation.

You can't fix someone who loves darkness.

True again. Some people just want to watch the world burn. There's no reasoning with them. Oblivion is the only option, oblivion is their only option.

There is a big difference between wanting oblivion and darkness, and being damned to an eternity of suffering.

Certainly, that's what I've been saying.