There Goes the Economy

[RoshawnMarkwees]

And will diminish in time. Beware of air.

Nah baby. Market is blowing up for Biden. Make it rain!

You are part of the ignorance that created this dilemma.
Energy drives the economy. Every ebb and flow has been driven by energy going back to the robust 50’s and 60’s through the hardships from the post-Arab-oil-embargo through the boon of the 80’s and 90’s and then through the hard times generated by an accelerated global economy and its squeeze-down on supply.
W’s removal of the offshore moratorium dropped prices dramatically, then enter Obama. He reinstated the moratorium and the subsequent energy costs drove the economy into the ditch until fracking (which Obama opposed but couldn’t prevent) came along. Trump exacerbated that supply line by removing regulations and we became robust to the level of the 50’s and 60’s again.
Now that communists have won and forced this forfeiture of our Cold War victory, energy will go back up and we will suffer again.

Energy is not what drives an entire economy. Hong Kong is entirely dependent on energy imports. Japan is mostly dependent on energy imports. Singapore, Tiawan, South Korea, Israel, dozens of countries have first world economies, while having no energy supplies.

Meanwhile, the Soviet Union, and Russia today, have tons of energy all over the place, and are poor.

Venezuela has the most known oil reserves in the world, and they are now in ruins. And no, it's not because of sanctions, unless you don't know how sanctions work.

Energy per growth. Venezuela has the energy part but no capitalism. Hong Kong and Japan are very small geographies so the dynamic is very different. However, if you take energy away from any of them and you will still have failure.

Somehow, everyone missed the point I was trying to make.... or more likely I did a terrible job of making my point.

The prior poster made the claim that energy is what drives the economy. He wasn't talking about being able to get energy to drive the economy.

Any economy can get energy. All you have to do is earn money, and buy it.

He was referring to the natural supply of energy. Meaning we have coal, and oil, and other sources of energy here in the US.

My point to everyone is that, even if we had zero natural supply of energy, we would still have a booming economy, because we can buy the energy we need. We know this because.... we do that now. We buy energy from all over the world.

As long as you work and produce goods and services, you can buy any energy you need. This is why Hong Kong with zero natural energy sources, has a 1st world economy. Same with all the other countries I listed.

As for the Arab Oil Embargo..... it did nothing. Absolutely nothing. The reason we had gasoline shortages in the US, was because of price controls.

Remember what I just said before, anyone can get all the energy they need, if they are willing to pay for it?

The reverse is also true. It doesn't matter how much natural energy sources you have, if you are not willing to pay for it.

When the government put in place price controls in the 1970s, that was effectively us refusing to pay for energy. Then you act shocked we had a gasoline shortage nation wide?

You see this in Venezuela today.

Venezuela's Fuel Shortage Upends Longtime Colombian Border Gas Smuggling Trade

Motorists near Colombia's border with Venezuela used to opt for cheaper, smuggled gas from the neighboring country. Now the tables have turned.

www.npr.org

Venezuela Gasoline Prices

Gasoline Prices in Venezuela remained unchanged at 0.02 USD/Liter in April. This page provides the latest reported value for - Venezuela Gasoline Prices - plus previous releases, historical high and low, short-term forecast and long-term prediction, economic calendar, survey consensus and news.

tradingeconomics.com

Venezuela has a nation wide gasoline shortage. Left-wingers like to try and blame US sanctions, but all you need to do is look at the government controlled prices for gasoline, and you can clearly see why they have shortages.

2¢ per liter. Translation... The government set price for gasoline in Venezuela is 7.6¢ per gallon.

Then you wonder why they don't have money to produce and refine oil in Venezuela, and why the nation with the most known oil reserves has a nation wide shortage of oil and gasoline?

You want to blame US sanctions, when they are charging 7.6¢ per gallon of gas?

So my whole point is, no economy is entirely dependent on energy, unless you make it dependent on energy. As long as you produce goods and services of value, you can buy all the energy you need, provided you are willing to pay for it.

By the way, this is yet another reason people should automatically be suspicious of any politicians that says he can lower prices on something. California tried capping electricity prices, and the result was rolling blackouts.

Venezuela, by the way, also cut electricity prices after Hugo Chavez nationalized the electric companies, and now they have routine blackouts that are nation wide.

Way off.
Anyone can buy energy but the price is dictated by supply. When the US has enough potential supply to reduce the price, the economy thrives. When Arabs cut supply, the price increases and that slows economies. When governments apply superficial price controls during an energy drought, the supply runs out and you have shortages.

Simply not factually true. The Arabs didn't cut supply at all.

Further, the cause and effect relationship between oil and the economy, is the reverse. When the economy increases, the price of oil generally goes up. When the economy crashes, the price of oil general goes down.

Now what is true, is that the price of oil sold by Saudi Arabia, was a fixed price. That fixed price, meant that the inflation price of gasoline was decreasing year over year, because the Arabs were getting less money. $20 for a barrel of oil, was not worth as much in 1970s, as it was in 1960, or 1950, or 1940 even.

The Saudis made do with this, because the value of the dollar was declining very slowly.

Well, that changed when Nixion decoupled the dollar from the gold standard. This was unavoidable, and has repercussions, namely that the Saudis started floating oil sales at market price, which was a shock...... that's why they called it "The Nixon Shock".

Nixon shock - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But the idea that the Arabs cut off supply, is a complete and total fabrication. It's not true at all, in any sense.

The reason is fairly simple. Imagine if you will, that you and another person are buying and selling goods.

Now imagine if you get angry at that person, and you decide you will not sell that person goods anymore. Does that mean you simply stop selling goods? Think about that very carefully, does that mean you simply close down, and stop selling anything, and go be homeless? Family out on the street?

No of course not. Well, to this day, most of the Saudi government is entirely built on oil revenue.

Saudi Arabia: breakdown of revenue by source 2021 | Statista

The government of Saudi Arabia estimated that 558 billion Saudi Riyal of its revenue for 2021 was generated from oil.

www.statista.com

To this very day, 68% of the revenue into the Saudi government is exclusively oil exports. You shut that off, the entire nation of Saudi Arabia would end in chaos, and anarchy.

So what you are you going to? You are going to keep selling your products.

In steps me, the capitalist. I'll buy your products.

You know why I'm going to be willing to buy up all the products you sell? Because I know someone right now, who is very much in need of your products.

The guy you are no longer selling to.

I'm going to buy your products up at a discount (because your biggest buyer you are not selling to anymore), and then I'm going to sell them to that guy you won't, for a profit.

He's still going to get the products.

This is exactly what happened during the embargo. The Arabs all still sold the oil, just not to the US. But buyers in Asia and Europe, and Africa, seeing a golden opportunity, spun right around and sold that oil to the US.

There was no cut in supply.

The cause of all shortages was due to price controls.

As for the over all price of oil causing real harm to the economy, I've seen precious little to suggest it does.

When oil Spiked to $140 a barrel in 2008, the change in airline fares to cover that cost was roughly $20. When the cost to fill up the tank was $3/gallon, compared to $2/gallon today, was about $45 a month.

That assumes people don't buy more fuel efficient cars when the price goes up, which we know they do, and thus offsets that increase in cost.

Now obviously cheaper energy will result in at least some amount of benefit to the economy. But again, Japan with half the population, and almost.... not quite but almost no natural energy sources at all.... still 3rd largest economy in the world. *shrug*.

Cart before the horse. Energy drives the economy and only vice-versus for those invested in energy.
The rest of your convoluted post is like a football coach so caught up in sequential football that he fails to realize that giving the ball to #22 and have him run behind #73 will win the game.

 

[pknopp]

Really?

So you should only have your property protected if you pay taxes? Because last I checked a little less than half the countries pays zero income tax.

So if your son or daughter works at McDonald's and doesn't pay tax, then I can steel their car? Rob their house?

Or are you full of crap?

Really. Is this not how the argument goes?

Doesn't the argument go that if you are here and not a citizen paying taxes like a citizen you do not deserve the same as a citizen?

If you are an American company that runs off to another country to avoid paying taxes to support the system you want to use to protect you, you do not deserve that protection. Run to the country you ran off to.

I should pay taxes to protect the property of a company that ran off to avoid paying taxes?

So I should be able to steal your son or daughters cars and property, because I guarantee they are not paying tax.

You agree with that, or not?

If that son or daughter is in another country it shouldn't be prosecuted in this country.

 

[RealDave]

Didn’t take long.
Watch energy costs go up while the economy crashes around us, creating a greater dependency class, the goal of Marxist democrats...

Rolling back Trump's rollbacks: Biden seen reversing climate deregulation

In case you are too fucking stupid to notice, we have been in a recession. Trump will likely leave office with neghative job grown & record debt=.

Again, I'm against deficit spending. Please tell me which Democrat has pushed a platform of cutting spending?

If you can't answer that, then you have no argument against Trump on the debt. Obama had record debt, if you forgot. Didn't hear left-wingers crying about that. Now Trump has record debt, and you suddenly decided it mattered when it wasn't your guy in office?

Practice what you preach, or stop preaching.

And as far as the recession.... Trump didn't do that. Trump was against the ridiculous lock downs from the start, and rightly so.

The people on the left wing demanded lock downs, and then you want to blame what lock downs Trump didn't do, on Trump? Hypocrite?

Wow, you live in Trump lala land. Republicans slashed revenues & increased spending. Which Democrats supported that?

Obama debts stemmed from the Bush recession he inherited. No one cheered them. But when you create the worst recession ion. 80 years, debt happens. Trump had us back at a trillion dollar deficit in 2019. He thern grossly mismanaged the pandemic.


QUIT BLAMING DEMOCRATS FOR NOT STOPPING THE REPUBLICANS.

Republics did not slash revenues. Revenue increased. That's a fact.

They did increase spending way more than they should have... in fact I would have cut spending.

But again... name one Democrat that support entitlement reform? None? Then I'll stick with Republicans.

Your only support for Democrats on this is that will increase taxes. Well that's not a selling point for me. I don't to live in Denmark, where I'm going to lose 60% of my income in taxes, and then lose 25% of what I have left in sales taxes.

I want to cut spending. You show me a Democrat that openly plans to cut spending.... we have something to talk about.

You don't. All you have is "Democrats will tax the ever living crap out of you... and that's good"... is not a 'win' in my book.

He thern grossly mismanaged the pandemic.

How? Name one specific way he mismanaged anything? Name a SPECIFIC way that he failed on that?

Wasn't it Democrats that were trying to pass the NO BAN act, to stop Trump of banning travel to China in April because it was "xenophobic"?

You people spout endless accusations, and stand on graves to gain political power. You are sick and disgusting people.

So, you think cutting the tax rate did not have any effect on revenues?

After 2 Years, Trump Tax Cuts Have Failed To Deliver On GOP's Promises

The president said it would be "rocket fuel for our economy," but the Republican tax cut passed in 2017 did not pay for itself as promised — nor did it deliver a sustained boost to growth.

www.npr.org

I love how you Trump morons think that entitlements are always the answer. It is not the subsidies to corporate America or increased spending.

And you lie about travel from China. The Democrats were concertned about Trump's travel bans prior to his action on China. Trump did not ban travel from China. The US was the 8th country to deal with travel & China. He still allowed over 40,000 people in from China.

He knew how dangertous COVID was & said it was low risk and under his complete control. His actions were slow & then he mocked masks & shutdowns. Trump is responsible for tens of thousands of deaths.

 

[Andylusion]

And will diminish in time. Beware of air.

Nah baby. Market is blowing up for Biden. Make it rain!

You are part of the ignorance that created this dilemma.
Energy drives the economy. Every ebb and flow has been driven by energy going back to the robust 50’s and 60’s through the hardships from the post-Arab-oil-embargo through the boon of the 80’s and 90’s and then through the hard times generated by an accelerated global economy and its squeeze-down on supply.
W’s removal of the offshore moratorium dropped prices dramatically, then enter Obama. He reinstated the moratorium and the subsequent energy costs drove the economy into the ditch until fracking (which Obama opposed but couldn’t prevent) came along. Trump exacerbated that supply line by removing regulations and we became robust to the level of the 50’s and 60’s again.
Now that communists have won and forced this forfeiture of our Cold War victory, energy will go back up and we will suffer again.

Energy is not what drives an entire economy. Hong Kong is entirely dependent on energy imports. Japan is mostly dependent on energy imports. Singapore, Tiawan, South Korea, Israel, dozens of countries have first world economies, while having no energy supplies.

Meanwhile, the Soviet Union, and Russia today, have tons of energy all over the place, and are poor.

Venezuela has the most known oil reserves in the world, and they are now in ruins. And no, it's not because of sanctions, unless you don't know how sanctions work.

Energy per growth. Venezuela has the energy part but no capitalism. Hong Kong and Japan are very small geographies so the dynamic is very different. However, if you take energy away from any of them and you will still have failure.

Somehow, everyone missed the point I was trying to make.... or more likely I did a terrible job of making my point.

The prior poster made the claim that energy is what drives the economy. He wasn't talking about being able to get energy to drive the economy.

Any economy can get energy. All you have to do is earn money, and buy it.

He was referring to the natural supply of energy. Meaning we have coal, and oil, and other sources of energy here in the US.

My point to everyone is that, even if we had zero natural supply of energy, we would still have a booming economy, because we can buy the energy we need. We know this because.... we do that now. We buy energy from all over the world.

As long as you work and produce goods and services, you can buy any energy you need. This is why Hong Kong with zero natural energy sources, has a 1st world economy. Same with all the other countries I listed.

As for the Arab Oil Embargo..... it did nothing. Absolutely nothing. The reason we had gasoline shortages in the US, was because of price controls.

Remember what I just said before, anyone can get all the energy they need, if they are willing to pay for it?

The reverse is also true. It doesn't matter how much natural energy sources you have, if you are not willing to pay for it.

When the government put in place price controls in the 1970s, that was effectively us refusing to pay for energy. Then you act shocked we had a gasoline shortage nation wide?

You see this in Venezuela today.

Venezuela's Fuel Shortage Upends Longtime Colombian Border Gas Smuggling Trade

Motorists near Colombia's border with Venezuela used to opt for cheaper, smuggled gas from the neighboring country. Now the tables have turned.

www.npr.org

Venezuela Gasoline Prices

Gasoline Prices in Venezuela remained unchanged at 0.02 USD/Liter in April. This page provides the latest reported value for - Venezuela Gasoline Prices - plus previous releases, historical high and low, short-term forecast and long-term prediction, economic calendar, survey consensus and news.

tradingeconomics.com

Venezuela has a nation wide gasoline shortage. Left-wingers like to try and blame US sanctions, but all you need to do is look at the government controlled prices for gasoline, and you can clearly see why they have shortages.

2¢ per liter. Translation... The government set price for gasoline in Venezuela is 7.6¢ per gallon.

Then you wonder why they don't have money to produce and refine oil in Venezuela, and why the nation with the most known oil reserves has a nation wide shortage of oil and gasoline?

You want to blame US sanctions, when they are charging 7.6¢ per gallon of gas?

So my whole point is, no economy is entirely dependent on energy, unless you make it dependent on energy. As long as you produce goods and services of value, you can buy all the energy you need, provided you are willing to pay for it.

By the way, this is yet another reason people should automatically be suspicious of any politicians that says he can lower prices on something. California tried capping electricity prices, and the result was rolling blackouts.

Venezuela, by the way, also cut electricity prices after Hugo Chavez nationalized the electric companies, and now they have routine blackouts that are nation wide.

Way off.
Anyone can buy energy but the price is dictated by supply. When the US has enough potential supply to reduce the price, the economy thrives. When Arabs cut supply, the price increases and that slows economies. When governments apply superficial price controls during an energy drought, the supply runs out and you have shortages.

Simply not factually true. The Arabs didn't cut supply at all.

Further, the cause and effect relationship between oil and the economy, is the reverse. When the economy increases, the price of oil generally goes up. When the economy crashes, the price of oil general goes down.

Now what is true, is that the price of oil sold by Saudi Arabia, was a fixed price. That fixed price, meant that the inflation price of gasoline was decreasing year over year, because the Arabs were getting less money. $20 for a barrel of oil, was not worth as much in 1970s, as it was in 1960, or 1950, or 1940 even.

The Saudis made do with this, because the value of the dollar was declining very slowly.

Well, that changed when Nixion decoupled the dollar from the gold standard. This was unavoidable, and has repercussions, namely that the Saudis started floating oil sales at market price, which was a shock...... that's why they called it "The Nixon Shock".

Nixon shock - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But the idea that the Arabs cut off supply, is a complete and total fabrication. It's not true at all, in any sense.

The reason is fairly simple. Imagine if you will, that you and another person are buying and selling goods.

Now imagine if you get angry at that person, and you decide you will not sell that person goods anymore. Does that mean you simply stop selling goods? Think about that very carefully, does that mean you simply close down, and stop selling anything, and go be homeless? Family out on the street?

No of course not. Well, to this day, most of the Saudi government is entirely built on oil revenue.

Saudi Arabia: breakdown of revenue by source 2021 | Statista

The government of Saudi Arabia estimated that 558 billion Saudi Riyal of its revenue for 2021 was generated from oil.

www.statista.com

To this very day, 68% of the revenue into the Saudi government is exclusively oil exports. You shut that off, the entire nation of Saudi Arabia would end in chaos, and anarchy.

So what you are you going to? You are going to keep selling your products.

In steps me, the capitalist. I'll buy your products.

You know why I'm going to be willing to buy up all the products you sell? Because I know someone right now, who is very much in need of your products.

The guy you are no longer selling to.

I'm going to buy your products up at a discount (because your biggest buyer you are not selling to anymore), and then I'm going to sell them to that guy you won't, for a profit.

He's still going to get the products.

This is exactly what happened during the embargo. The Arabs all still sold the oil, just not to the US. But buyers in Asia and Europe, and Africa, seeing a golden opportunity, spun right around and sold that oil to the US.

There was no cut in supply.

The cause of all shortages was due to price controls.

As for the over all price of oil causing real harm to the economy, I've seen precious little to suggest it does.

When oil Spiked to $140 a barrel in 2008, the change in airline fares to cover that cost was roughly $20. When the cost to fill up the tank was $3/gallon, compared to $2/gallon today, was about $45 a month.

That assumes people don't buy more fuel efficient cars when the price goes up, which we know they do, and thus offsets that increase in cost.

Now obviously cheaper energy will result in at least some amount of benefit to the economy. But again, Japan with half the population, and almost.... not quite but almost no natural energy sources at all.... still 3rd largest economy in the world. *shrug*.

Cart before the horse. Energy drives the economy and only vice-versus for those invested in energy.
The rest of your convoluted post is like a football coach so caught up in sequential football that he fails to realize that giving the ball to #22 and have him run behind #73 will win the game.

So you can't actually answer anything I said... but you want to mock it.

Alright, well good talking to you. Your deep insightful posts, I'm sure benefited everyone....

 

[Rambunctious]

Don't say we didn't warn you libs.....

 

[Andylusion]

Didn’t take long.
Watch energy costs go up while the economy crashes around us, creating a greater dependency class, the goal of Marxist democrats...

Rolling back Trump's rollbacks: Biden seen reversing climate deregulation

In case you are too fucking stupid to notice, we have been in a recession. Trump will likely leave office with neghative job grown & record debt=.

Again, I'm against deficit spending. Please tell me which Democrat has pushed a platform of cutting spending?

If you can't answer that, then you have no argument against Trump on the debt. Obama had record debt, if you forgot. Didn't hear left-wingers crying about that. Now Trump has record debt, and you suddenly decided it mattered when it wasn't your guy in office?

Practice what you preach, or stop preaching.

And as far as the recession.... Trump didn't do that. Trump was against the ridiculous lock downs from the start, and rightly so.

The people on the left wing demanded lock downs, and then you want to blame what lock downs Trump didn't do, on Trump? Hypocrite?

Wow, you live in Trump lala land. Republicans slashed revenues & increased spending. Which Democrats supported that?

Obama debts stemmed from the Bush recession he inherited. No one cheered them. But when you create the worst recession ion. 80 years, debt happens. Trump had us back at a trillion dollar deficit in 2019. He thern grossly mismanaged the pandemic.


QUIT BLAMING DEMOCRATS FOR NOT STOPPING THE REPUBLICANS.

Republics did not slash revenues. Revenue increased. That's a fact.

They did increase spending way more than they should have... in fact I would have cut spending.

But again... name one Democrat that support entitlement reform? None? Then I'll stick with Republicans.

Your only support for Democrats on this is that will increase taxes. Well that's not a selling point for me. I don't to live in Denmark, where I'm going to lose 60% of my income in taxes, and then lose 25% of what I have left in sales taxes.

I want to cut spending. You show me a Democrat that openly plans to cut spending.... we have something to talk about.

You don't. All you have is "Democrats will tax the ever living crap out of you... and that's good"... is not a 'win' in my book.

He thern grossly mismanaged the pandemic.

How? Name one specific way he mismanaged anything? Name a SPECIFIC way that he failed on that?

Wasn't it Democrats that were trying to pass the NO BAN act, to stop Trump of banning travel to China in April because it was "xenophobic"?

You people spout endless accusations, and stand on graves to gain political power. You are sick and disgusting people.

So, you think cutting the tax rate did not have any effect on revenues?

After 2 Years, Trump Tax Cuts Have Failed To Deliver On GOP's Promises

The president said it would be "rocket fuel for our economy," but the Republican tax cut passed in 2017 did not pay for itself as promised — nor did it deliver a sustained boost to growth.

www.npr.org

I love how you Trump morons think that entitlements are always the answer. It is not the subsidies to corporate America or increased spending.

And you lie about travel from China. The Democrats were concertned about Trump's travel bans prior to his action on China. Trump did not ban travel from China. The US was the 8th country to deal with travel & China. He still allowed over 40,000 people in from China.

He knew how dangertous COVID was & said it was low risk and under his complete control. His actions were slow & then he mocked masks & shutdowns. Trump is responsible for tens of thousands of deaths.

In the short term, every change in tax rates, will have an impact on revenue whether small or large.

But in the long term, we see that changes in the tax rates have an impact on how people act.

For example, the wealth tax in France, and the rest of Europe that attempted them, had the result that people moved out of the country, or divested.

Again, the wealthy left France by the thousands.

In short term, I'm sure that tax generated revenue for the government. But in the long term, how much tax revenue did you collect from someone who left the country? Of course the answer is zero.

Wealth tax is forcing 12,000 millionaires PER YEAR out of France

Edouard Philippe defended President Emmanuel Macrons' new tax break for the wealthiest, saying it is needed stem the increasing flow of the richest leaving France.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Similarly, how much revenue would have been generated if Apple Computer had not spent hundreds of millions, and created thousands on thousands of jobs, in Ireland.... and instead had done that here in the US?

I can guarantee you.... the amount of tax revenue generated from the 35% tax, is less than the amount of tax generated had Apple invested in the US instead of Ireland.

Equally, I am absolutely confident, that the increased investment in the US, because of the lower Corporate Tax rate, will be far greater, than how much would have generated by a 35% tax rate, with all the corporations moving operations out of the country.

The problem with investment is that it's not an instant gratification situation, and it also requires that you not.... I don't know.... shut down the economy over a sniffle.

But my point is, increasing investment doesn't happen over night, or even in a year, or 4 years even.

The manufacturing plant that you see today in operation, was easily 4 years in the making. A year to come up with the product. A year to get plan out all the supply chains. A year to find a location to build, get all the permits, and so on.

If you need an example to illustrate my point.... just look at Amazon, the Seattle Head Tax, and their HQ2 project.

Seattle announced plans for a head tax in 2017. In September of 2017, Amazon announced their intention of opening an HQ2. Coincidence? I think not.

The head tax might bring in large revenue in the short term, but in the long term as companies like Amazon vacate the city, you are going to not only lose revenue from that tax, but also all the other taxes that Amazon already pays Seattle.

And these investments take time. Amazon announced the HQ2 plan in 2017, and it's now 2020, and they just started building one tower of their HQ2 campus.

So right there, you can see the economic effects and delayed investment, in one single example, within our own country. And that's one of thousands of examples.

And you lie about travel from China. The Democrats were concertned about Trump's travel bans prior to his action on China. Trump did not ban travel from China. The US was the 8th country to deal with travel & China. He still allowed over 40,000 people in from China.

Biden accuses Trump of being ‘nakedly xenophobic’ in coronavirus response

Joe Biden accused President Trump of fanning “the flames of hate” during the coronavirus pandemic. “The pandemic has unleashed familiar forces of hate, fear and xenophobia that he alway…

nypost.com

The day after Trump pushed a travel ban for China, Biden said the following.

“The pandemic has unleashed familiar forces of hate, fear and xenophobia that he always flames … that have always existed in this society,” Biden said in a speech on Monday, The Hill reported. “But this president brought it with him, has brought with it a new rash of racial messages, verbal and physical attacks and other acts of hate, some subtle, some overt, against the Asian American and Pacific Islanders.”

That was a response to him shutting down travel to prevent the spread of Covid-19.

This isn't debatable. It's a fact. You are full of crap, when Trump tried to put in place reasonable measures to stop the spread of Covid, you attacked him as racist... and then when that attack didn't work, you attacked him for not doing enough, when you just got done attacking him for what he did.

You are a liar. You are garbage. Everyone who knows you should be ashamed of you. Just saying.

 

[Andylusion]

Really?

So you should only have your property protected if you pay taxes? Because last I checked a little less than half the countries pays zero income tax.

So if your son or daughter works at McDonald's and doesn't pay tax, then I can steel their car? Rob their house?

Or are you full of crap?

Really. Is this not how the argument goes?

Doesn't the argument go that if you are here and not a citizen paying taxes like a citizen you do not deserve the same as a citizen?

If you are an American company that runs off to another country to avoid paying taxes to support the system you want to use to protect you, you do not deserve that protection. Run to the country you ran off to.

I should pay taxes to protect the property of a company that ran off to avoid paying taxes?

So I should be able to steal your son or daughters cars and property, because I guarantee they are not paying tax.

You agree with that, or not?

If that son or daughter is in another country it shouldn't be prosecuted in this country.

Oh, so taxes doesn't have anything to do with whether your property should be protected?

As long as they live in the US, whether they pay taxes or not, they should have their property be protected?

You just blew up your argument. Thank you, have a nice day.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

And will diminish in time. Beware of air.

Nah baby. Market is blowing up for Biden. Make it rain!

You are part of the ignorance that created this dilemma.
Energy drives the economy. Every ebb and flow has been driven by energy going back to the robust 50’s and 60’s through the hardships from the post-Arab-oil-embargo through the boon of the 80’s and 90’s and then through the hard times generated by an accelerated global economy and its squeeze-down on supply.
W’s removal of the offshore moratorium dropped prices dramatically, then enter Obama. He reinstated the moratorium and the subsequent energy costs drove the economy into the ditch until fracking (which Obama opposed but couldn’t prevent) came along. Trump exacerbated that supply line by removing regulations and we became robust to the level of the 50’s and 60’s again.
Now that communists have won and forced this forfeiture of our Cold War victory, energy will go back up and we will suffer again.

Energy is not what drives an entire economy. Hong Kong is entirely dependent on energy imports. Japan is mostly dependent on energy imports. Singapore, Tiawan, South Korea, Israel, dozens of countries have first world economies, while having no energy supplies.

Meanwhile, the Soviet Union, and Russia today, have tons of energy all over the place, and are poor.

Venezuela has the most known oil reserves in the world, and they are now in ruins. And no, it's not because of sanctions, unless you don't know how sanctions work.

Energy per growth. Venezuela has the energy part but no capitalism. Hong Kong and Japan are very small geographies so the dynamic is very different. However, if you take energy away from any of them and you will still have failure.

Somehow, everyone missed the point I was trying to make.... or more likely I did a terrible job of making my point.

The prior poster made the claim that energy is what drives the economy. He wasn't talking about being able to get energy to drive the economy.

Any economy can get energy. All you have to do is earn money, and buy it.

He was referring to the natural supply of energy. Meaning we have coal, and oil, and other sources of energy here in the US.

My point to everyone is that, even if we had zero natural supply of energy, we would still have a booming economy, because we can buy the energy we need. We know this because.... we do that now. We buy energy from all over the world.

As long as you work and produce goods and services, you can buy any energy you need. This is why Hong Kong with zero natural energy sources, has a 1st world economy. Same with all the other countries I listed.

As for the Arab Oil Embargo..... it did nothing. Absolutely nothing. The reason we had gasoline shortages in the US, was because of price controls.

Remember what I just said before, anyone can get all the energy they need, if they are willing to pay for it?

The reverse is also true. It doesn't matter how much natural energy sources you have, if you are not willing to pay for it.

When the government put in place price controls in the 1970s, that was effectively us refusing to pay for energy. Then you act shocked we had a gasoline shortage nation wide?

You see this in Venezuela today.

Venezuela's Fuel Shortage Upends Longtime Colombian Border Gas Smuggling Trade

Motorists near Colombia's border with Venezuela used to opt for cheaper, smuggled gas from the neighboring country. Now the tables have turned.

www.npr.org

Venezuela Gasoline Prices

Gasoline Prices in Venezuela remained unchanged at 0.02 USD/Liter in April. This page provides the latest reported value for - Venezuela Gasoline Prices - plus previous releases, historical high and low, short-term forecast and long-term prediction, economic calendar, survey consensus and news.

tradingeconomics.com

Venezuela has a nation wide gasoline shortage. Left-wingers like to try and blame US sanctions, but all you need to do is look at the government controlled prices for gasoline, and you can clearly see why they have shortages.

2¢ per liter. Translation... The government set price for gasoline in Venezuela is 7.6¢ per gallon.

Then you wonder why they don't have money to produce and refine oil in Venezuela, and why the nation with the most known oil reserves has a nation wide shortage of oil and gasoline?

You want to blame US sanctions, when they are charging 7.6¢ per gallon of gas?

So my whole point is, no economy is entirely dependent on energy, unless you make it dependent on energy. As long as you produce goods and services of value, you can buy all the energy you need, provided you are willing to pay for it.

By the way, this is yet another reason people should automatically be suspicious of any politicians that says he can lower prices on something. California tried capping electricity prices, and the result was rolling blackouts.

Venezuela, by the way, also cut electricity prices after Hugo Chavez nationalized the electric companies, and now they have routine blackouts that are nation wide.

Way off.
Anyone can buy energy but the price is dictated by supply. When the US has enough potential supply to reduce the price, the economy thrives. When Arabs cut supply, the price increases and that slows economies. When governments apply superficial price controls during an energy drought, the supply runs out and you have shortages.

Simply not factually true. The Arabs didn't cut supply at all.

Further, the cause and effect relationship between oil and the economy, is the reverse. When the economy increases, the price of oil generally goes up. When the economy crashes, the price of oil general goes down.

Now what is true, is that the price of oil sold by Saudi Arabia, was a fixed price. That fixed price, meant that the inflation price of gasoline was decreasing year over year, because the Arabs were getting less money. $20 for a barrel of oil, was not worth as much in 1970s, as it was in 1960, or 1950, or 1940 even.

The Saudis made do with this, because the value of the dollar was declining very slowly.

Well, that changed when Nixion decoupled the dollar from the gold standard. This was unavoidable, and has repercussions, namely that the Saudis started floating oil sales at market price, which was a shock...... that's why they called it "The Nixon Shock".

Nixon shock - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But the idea that the Arabs cut off supply, is a complete and total fabrication. It's not true at all, in any sense.

The reason is fairly simple. Imagine if you will, that you and another person are buying and selling goods.

Now imagine if you get angry at that person, and you decide you will not sell that person goods anymore. Does that mean you simply stop selling goods? Think about that very carefully, does that mean you simply close down, and stop selling anything, and go be homeless? Family out on the street?

No of course not. Well, to this day, most of the Saudi government is entirely built on oil revenue.

Saudi Arabia: breakdown of revenue by source 2021 | Statista

The government of Saudi Arabia estimated that 558 billion Saudi Riyal of its revenue for 2021 was generated from oil.

www.statista.com

To this very day, 68% of the revenue into the Saudi government is exclusively oil exports. You shut that off, the entire nation of Saudi Arabia would end in chaos, and anarchy.

So what you are you going to? You are going to keep selling your products.

In steps me, the capitalist. I'll buy your products.

You know why I'm going to be willing to buy up all the products you sell? Because I know someone right now, who is very much in need of your products.

The guy you are no longer selling to.

I'm going to buy your products up at a discount (because your biggest buyer you are not selling to anymore), and then I'm going to sell them to that guy you won't, for a profit.

He's still going to get the products.

This is exactly what happened during the embargo. The Arabs all still sold the oil, just not to the US. But buyers in Asia and Europe, and Africa, seeing a golden opportunity, spun right around and sold that oil to the US.

There was no cut in supply.

The cause of all shortages was due to price controls.

As for the over all price of oil causing real harm to the economy, I've seen precious little to suggest it does.

When oil Spiked to $140 a barrel in 2008, the change in airline fares to cover that cost was roughly $20. When the cost to fill up the tank was $3/gallon, compared to $2/gallon today, was about $45 a month.

That assumes people don't buy more fuel efficient cars when the price goes up, which we know they do, and thus offsets that increase in cost.

Now obviously cheaper energy will result in at least some amount of benefit to the economy. But again, Japan with half the population, and almost.... not quite but almost no natural energy sources at all.... still 3rd largest economy in the world. *shrug*.

You left out the most important thing. The Presidents prior to Nixon would crack open the Strategic Reserves (capped US Wells) and bring the prices down whenever the ME tried to go nuts with their prices. The ME would intentionally slow down pumping which would raise prices but with the Strategic Reserve making up the difference, the prices stayed constant. Nixon chose not to use that method. The "Gas Shortage" was created that way.

 

[Andylusion]

And will diminish in time. Beware of air.

Nah baby. Market is blowing up for Biden. Make it rain!

You are part of the ignorance that created this dilemma.
Energy drives the economy. Every ebb and flow has been driven by energy going back to the robust 50’s and 60’s through the hardships from the post-Arab-oil-embargo through the boon of the 80’s and 90’s and then through the hard times generated by an accelerated global economy and its squeeze-down on supply.
W’s removal of the offshore moratorium dropped prices dramatically, then enter Obama. He reinstated the moratorium and the subsequent energy costs drove the economy into the ditch until fracking (which Obama opposed but couldn’t prevent) came along. Trump exacerbated that supply line by removing regulations and we became robust to the level of the 50’s and 60’s again.
Now that communists have won and forced this forfeiture of our Cold War victory, energy will go back up and we will suffer again.

Energy is not what drives an entire economy. Hong Kong is entirely dependent on energy imports. Japan is mostly dependent on energy imports. Singapore, Tiawan, South Korea, Israel, dozens of countries have first world economies, while having no energy supplies.

Meanwhile, the Soviet Union, and Russia today, have tons of energy all over the place, and are poor.

Venezuela has the most known oil reserves in the world, and they are now in ruins. And no, it's not because of sanctions, unless you don't know how sanctions work.

Energy per growth. Venezuela has the energy part but no capitalism. Hong Kong and Japan are very small geographies so the dynamic is very different. However, if you take energy away from any of them and you will still have failure.

Somehow, everyone missed the point I was trying to make.... or more likely I did a terrible job of making my point.

The prior poster made the claim that energy is what drives the economy. He wasn't talking about being able to get energy to drive the economy.

Any economy can get energy. All you have to do is earn money, and buy it.

He was referring to the natural supply of energy. Meaning we have coal, and oil, and other sources of energy here in the US.

My point to everyone is that, even if we had zero natural supply of energy, we would still have a booming economy, because we can buy the energy we need. We know this because.... we do that now. We buy energy from all over the world.

As long as you work and produce goods and services, you can buy any energy you need. This is why Hong Kong with zero natural energy sources, has a 1st world economy. Same with all the other countries I listed.

As for the Arab Oil Embargo..... it did nothing. Absolutely nothing. The reason we had gasoline shortages in the US, was because of price controls.

Remember what I just said before, anyone can get all the energy they need, if they are willing to pay for it?

The reverse is also true. It doesn't matter how much natural energy sources you have, if you are not willing to pay for it.

When the government put in place price controls in the 1970s, that was effectively us refusing to pay for energy. Then you act shocked we had a gasoline shortage nation wide?

You see this in Venezuela today.

Venezuela's Fuel Shortage Upends Longtime Colombian Border Gas Smuggling Trade

Motorists near Colombia's border with Venezuela used to opt for cheaper, smuggled gas from the neighboring country. Now the tables have turned.

www.npr.org

Venezuela Gasoline Prices

Gasoline Prices in Venezuela remained unchanged at 0.02 USD/Liter in April. This page provides the latest reported value for - Venezuela Gasoline Prices - plus previous releases, historical high and low, short-term forecast and long-term prediction, economic calendar, survey consensus and news.

tradingeconomics.com

Venezuela has a nation wide gasoline shortage. Left-wingers like to try and blame US sanctions, but all you need to do is look at the government controlled prices for gasoline, and you can clearly see why they have shortages.

2¢ per liter. Translation... The government set price for gasoline in Venezuela is 7.6¢ per gallon.

Then you wonder why they don't have money to produce and refine oil in Venezuela, and why the nation with the most known oil reserves has a nation wide shortage of oil and gasoline?

You want to blame US sanctions, when they are charging 7.6¢ per gallon of gas?

So my whole point is, no economy is entirely dependent on energy, unless you make it dependent on energy. As long as you produce goods and services of value, you can buy all the energy you need, provided you are willing to pay for it.

By the way, this is yet another reason people should automatically be suspicious of any politicians that says he can lower prices on something. California tried capping electricity prices, and the result was rolling blackouts.

Venezuela, by the way, also cut electricity prices after Hugo Chavez nationalized the electric companies, and now they have routine blackouts that are nation wide.

Way off.
Anyone can buy energy but the price is dictated by supply. When the US has enough potential supply to reduce the price, the economy thrives. When Arabs cut supply, the price increases and that slows economies. When governments apply superficial price controls during an energy drought, the supply runs out and you have shortages.

Simply not factually true. The Arabs didn't cut supply at all.

Further, the cause and effect relationship between oil and the economy, is the reverse. When the economy increases, the price of oil generally goes up. When the economy crashes, the price of oil general goes down.

Now what is true, is that the price of oil sold by Saudi Arabia, was a fixed price. That fixed price, meant that the inflation price of gasoline was decreasing year over year, because the Arabs were getting less money. $20 for a barrel of oil, was not worth as much in 1970s, as it was in 1960, or 1950, or 1940 even.

The Saudis made do with this, because the value of the dollar was declining very slowly.

Well, that changed when Nixion decoupled the dollar from the gold standard. This was unavoidable, and has repercussions, namely that the Saudis started floating oil sales at market price, which was a shock...... that's why they called it "The Nixon Shock".

Nixon shock - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But the idea that the Arabs cut off supply, is a complete and total fabrication. It's not true at all, in any sense.

The reason is fairly simple. Imagine if you will, that you and another person are buying and selling goods.

Now imagine if you get angry at that person, and you decide you will not sell that person goods anymore. Does that mean you simply stop selling goods? Think about that very carefully, does that mean you simply close down, and stop selling anything, and go be homeless? Family out on the street?

No of course not. Well, to this day, most of the Saudi government is entirely built on oil revenue.

Saudi Arabia: breakdown of revenue by source 2021 | Statista

The government of Saudi Arabia estimated that 558 billion Saudi Riyal of its revenue for 2021 was generated from oil.

www.statista.com

To this very day, 68% of the revenue into the Saudi government is exclusively oil exports. You shut that off, the entire nation of Saudi Arabia would end in chaos, and anarchy.

So what you are you going to? You are going to keep selling your products.

In steps me, the capitalist. I'll buy your products.

You know why I'm going to be willing to buy up all the products you sell? Because I know someone right now, who is very much in need of your products.

The guy you are no longer selling to.

I'm going to buy your products up at a discount (because your biggest buyer you are not selling to anymore), and then I'm going to sell them to that guy you won't, for a profit.

He's still going to get the products.

This is exactly what happened during the embargo. The Arabs all still sold the oil, just not to the US. But buyers in Asia and Europe, and Africa, seeing a golden opportunity, spun right around and sold that oil to the US.

There was no cut in supply.

The cause of all shortages was due to price controls.

As for the over all price of oil causing real harm to the economy, I've seen precious little to suggest it does.

When oil Spiked to $140 a barrel in 2008, the change in airline fares to cover that cost was roughly $20. When the cost to fill up the tank was $3/gallon, compared to $2/gallon today, was about $45 a month.

That assumes people don't buy more fuel efficient cars when the price goes up, which we know they do, and thus offsets that increase in cost.

Now obviously cheaper energy will result in at least some amount of benefit to the economy. But again, Japan with half the population, and almost.... not quite but almost no natural energy sources at all.... still 3rd largest economy in the world. *shrug*.

You left out the most important thing. The Presidents prior to Nixon would crack open the Strategic Reserves (capped US Wells) and bring the prices down whenever the ME tried to go nuts with their prices. The ME would intentionally slow down pumping which would raise prices but with the Strategic Reserve making up the difference, the prices stayed constant. Nixon chose not to use that method. The "Gas Shortage" was created that way.

Um.................. fail? The name is Strategic Petroleum Reserves.

Strategic Petroleum Reserve (United States) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You are correct that Nixon did not 'crack open the strategic petroleum reserves'.... that is correct. You are absolutely 100% correct.

Because they didn't exist.

​

The United States started the petroleum reserve in 1975 after oil supplies were interrupted during the 1973–1974 oil embargo, to mitigate future supply disruptions.​

Do tell how "Presidents prior to Nixon" were able to 'crack open' the petroleum reserves that did not exist until the year after Nixon left office?

Further, the SPR, has virtually no real world effect on prices. None. We use far too much oil, for the tiny amount in the SPR, to be of any market impact.

The absolute largest sale of oil ever made, was in 2017, when they sold 190 Million barrels.

The US uses 20 Million a day. That's 9 days worth of oil. That's it. It is literally and figuratively an oil drop in the bucket compared to the US yearly use, or world wide yearly use of oil, and would have zero impact on oil prices.

There was never any attempt to steady oil prices prior to Nixon, and no attempts to steady oil prices after Carter.

Nixon and Carter are the only two presidents that ever attempted anything to control or stead the price of oil, and both resulted in shortages.

The SPR was never used to try and mitigate prices. You can look up what it was used for. Never once did they mention trying to control prices. And even the ones where they sold for reasons like 'disruption to supply', was joke. For example after Hurricane Katrina, they sold 11 Million barrels of oil. That isn't even 12 hours of the US's daily oil consumption.

Like most things that government wastes hundreds of billions of dollars on... the SPR is used to pay back political supporters... because I guarantee you that the people managing those oil reserves for the US government, are political supporters that are making a really good profit from just siting there on oil, and doing nothing with it....

And it's to use as a convenient political football to kick around, so that dumb people think government is protecting them.

Ever time something happens, they sell off a few million barrels, so that they can say to dumb voters "Look what we did for you!".... and people dumb enough to buy that.

 

[RoshawnMarkwees]

And will diminish in time. Beware of air.

Nah baby. Market is blowing up for Biden. Make it rain!

You are part of the ignorance that created this dilemma.
Energy drives the economy. Every ebb and flow has been driven by energy going back to the robust 50’s and 60’s through the hardships from the post-Arab-oil-embargo through the boon of the 80’s and 90’s and then through the hard times generated by an accelerated global economy and its squeeze-down on supply.
W’s removal of the offshore moratorium dropped prices dramatically, then enter Obama. He reinstated the moratorium and the subsequent energy costs drove the economy into the ditch until fracking (which Obama opposed but couldn’t prevent) came along. Trump exacerbated that supply line by removing regulations and we became robust to the level of the 50’s and 60’s again.
Now that communists have won and forced this forfeiture of our Cold War victory, energy will go back up and we will suffer again.

Energy is not what drives an entire economy. Hong Kong is entirely dependent on energy imports. Japan is mostly dependent on energy imports. Singapore, Tiawan, South Korea, Israel, dozens of countries have first world economies, while having no energy supplies.

Meanwhile, the Soviet Union, and Russia today, have tons of energy all over the place, and are poor.

Venezuela has the most known oil reserves in the world, and they are now in ruins. And no, it's not because of sanctions, unless you don't know how sanctions work.

Energy per growth. Venezuela has the energy part but no capitalism. Hong Kong and Japan are very small geographies so the dynamic is very different. However, if you take energy away from any of them and you will still have failure.

Somehow, everyone missed the point I was trying to make.... or more likely I did a terrible job of making my point.

The prior poster made the claim that energy is what drives the economy. He wasn't talking about being able to get energy to drive the economy.

Any economy can get energy. All you have to do is earn money, and buy it.

He was referring to the natural supply of energy. Meaning we have coal, and oil, and other sources of energy here in the US.

My point to everyone is that, even if we had zero natural supply of energy, we would still have a booming economy, because we can buy the energy we need. We know this because.... we do that now. We buy energy from all over the world.

As long as you work and produce goods and services, you can buy any energy you need. This is why Hong Kong with zero natural energy sources, has a 1st world economy. Same with all the other countries I listed.

As for the Arab Oil Embargo..... it did nothing. Absolutely nothing. The reason we had gasoline shortages in the US, was because of price controls.

Remember what I just said before, anyone can get all the energy they need, if they are willing to pay for it?

The reverse is also true. It doesn't matter how much natural energy sources you have, if you are not willing to pay for it.

When the government put in place price controls in the 1970s, that was effectively us refusing to pay for energy. Then you act shocked we had a gasoline shortage nation wide?

You see this in Venezuela today.

Venezuela's Fuel Shortage Upends Longtime Colombian Border Gas Smuggling Trade

Motorists near Colombia's border with Venezuela used to opt for cheaper, smuggled gas from the neighboring country. Now the tables have turned.

www.npr.org

Venezuela Gasoline Prices

Gasoline Prices in Venezuela remained unchanged at 0.02 USD/Liter in April. This page provides the latest reported value for - Venezuela Gasoline Prices - plus previous releases, historical high and low, short-term forecast and long-term prediction, economic calendar, survey consensus and news.

tradingeconomics.com

Venezuela has a nation wide gasoline shortage. Left-wingers like to try and blame US sanctions, but all you need to do is look at the government controlled prices for gasoline, and you can clearly see why they have shortages.

2¢ per liter. Translation... The government set price for gasoline in Venezuela is 7.6¢ per gallon.

Then you wonder why they don't have money to produce and refine oil in Venezuela, and why the nation with the most known oil reserves has a nation wide shortage of oil and gasoline?

You want to blame US sanctions, when they are charging 7.6¢ per gallon of gas?

So my whole point is, no economy is entirely dependent on energy, unless you make it dependent on energy. As long as you produce goods and services of value, you can buy all the energy you need, provided you are willing to pay for it.

By the way, this is yet another reason people should automatically be suspicious of any politicians that says he can lower prices on something. California tried capping electricity prices, and the result was rolling blackouts.

Venezuela, by the way, also cut electricity prices after Hugo Chavez nationalized the electric companies, and now they have routine blackouts that are nation wide.

Way off.
Anyone can buy energy but the price is dictated by supply. When the US has enough potential supply to reduce the price, the economy thrives. When Arabs cut supply, the price increases and that slows economies. When governments apply superficial price controls during an energy drought, the supply runs out and you have shortages.

Simply not factually true. The Arabs didn't cut supply at all.

Further, the cause and effect relationship between oil and the economy, is the reverse. When the economy increases, the price of oil generally goes up. When the economy crashes, the price of oil general goes down.

Now what is true, is that the price of oil sold by Saudi Arabia, was a fixed price. That fixed price, meant that the inflation price of gasoline was decreasing year over year, because the Arabs were getting less money. $20 for a barrel of oil, was not worth as much in 1970s, as it was in 1960, or 1950, or 1940 even.

The Saudis made do with this, because the value of the dollar was declining very slowly.

Well, that changed when Nixion decoupled the dollar from the gold standard. This was unavoidable, and has repercussions, namely that the Saudis started floating oil sales at market price, which was a shock...... that's why they called it "The Nixon Shock".

Nixon shock - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But the idea that the Arabs cut off supply, is a complete and total fabrication. It's not true at all, in any sense.

The reason is fairly simple. Imagine if you will, that you and another person are buying and selling goods.

Now imagine if you get angry at that person, and you decide you will not sell that person goods anymore. Does that mean you simply stop selling goods? Think about that very carefully, does that mean you simply close down, and stop selling anything, and go be homeless? Family out on the street?

No of course not. Well, to this day, most of the Saudi government is entirely built on oil revenue.

Saudi Arabia: breakdown of revenue by source 2021 | Statista

The government of Saudi Arabia estimated that 558 billion Saudi Riyal of its revenue for 2021 was generated from oil.

www.statista.com

To this very day, 68% of the revenue into the Saudi government is exclusively oil exports. You shut that off, the entire nation of Saudi Arabia would end in chaos, and anarchy.

So what you are you going to? You are going to keep selling your products.

In steps me, the capitalist. I'll buy your products.

You know why I'm going to be willing to buy up all the products you sell? Because I know someone right now, who is very much in need of your products.

The guy you are no longer selling to.

I'm going to buy your products up at a discount (because your biggest buyer you are not selling to anymore), and then I'm going to sell them to that guy you won't, for a profit.

He's still going to get the products.

This is exactly what happened during the embargo. The Arabs all still sold the oil, just not to the US. But buyers in Asia and Europe, and Africa, seeing a golden opportunity, spun right around and sold that oil to the US.

There was no cut in supply.

The cause of all shortages was due to price controls.

As for the over all price of oil causing real harm to the economy, I've seen precious little to suggest it does.

When oil Spiked to $140 a barrel in 2008, the change in airline fares to cover that cost was roughly $20. When the cost to fill up the tank was $3/gallon, compared to $2/gallon today, was about $45 a month.

That assumes people don't buy more fuel efficient cars when the price goes up, which we know they do, and thus offsets that increase in cost.

Now obviously cheaper energy will result in at least some amount of benefit to the economy. But again, Japan with half the population, and almost.... not quite but almost no natural energy sources at all.... still 3rd largest economy in the world. *shrug*.

Cart before the horse. Energy drives the economy and only vice-versus for those invested in energy.
The rest of your convoluted post is like a football coach so caught up in sequential football that he fails to realize that giving the ball to #22 and have him run behind #73 will win the game.

So you can't actually answer anything I said... but you want to mock it.

Alright, well good talking to you. Your deep insightful posts, I'm sure benefited everyone....

I answered you succinctly and without having to impress myself with my own post.

 

[pknopp]

Really?

So you should only have your property protected if you pay taxes? Because last I checked a little less than half the countries pays zero income tax.

So if your son or daughter works at McDonald's and doesn't pay tax, then I can steel their car? Rob their house?

Or are you full of crap?

Really. Is this not how the argument goes?

Doesn't the argument go that if you are here and not a citizen paying taxes like a citizen you do not deserve the same as a citizen?

If you are an American company that runs off to another country to avoid paying taxes to support the system you want to use to protect you, you do not deserve that protection. Run to the country you ran off to.

I should pay taxes to protect the property of a company that ran off to avoid paying taxes?

So I should be able to steal your son or daughters cars and property, because I guarantee they are not paying tax.

You agree with that, or not?

If that son or daughter is in another country it shouldn't be prosecuted in this country.

Oh, so taxes doesn't have anything to do with whether your property should be protected?

As long as they live in the US, whether they pay taxes or not, they should have their property be protected?

You just blew up your argument. Thank you, have a nice day.

Hardly, The company in question is not located in the US is it?

 

[Daryl Hunt]

And will diminish in time. Beware of air.

Nah baby. Market is blowing up for Biden. Make it rain!

You are part of the ignorance that created this dilemma.
Energy drives the economy. Every ebb and flow has been driven by energy going back to the robust 50’s and 60’s through the hardships from the post-Arab-oil-embargo through the boon of the 80’s and 90’s and then through the hard times generated by an accelerated global economy and its squeeze-down on supply.
W’s removal of the offshore moratorium dropped prices dramatically, then enter Obama. He reinstated the moratorium and the subsequent energy costs drove the economy into the ditch until fracking (which Obama opposed but couldn’t prevent) came along. Trump exacerbated that supply line by removing regulations and we became robust to the level of the 50’s and 60’s again.
Now that communists have won and forced this forfeiture of our Cold War victory, energy will go back up and we will suffer again.

Energy is not what drives an entire economy. Hong Kong is entirely dependent on energy imports. Japan is mostly dependent on energy imports. Singapore, Tiawan, South Korea, Israel, dozens of countries have first world economies, while having no energy supplies.

Meanwhile, the Soviet Union, and Russia today, have tons of energy all over the place, and are poor.

Venezuela has the most known oil reserves in the world, and they are now in ruins. And no, it's not because of sanctions, unless you don't know how sanctions work.

Energy per growth. Venezuela has the energy part but no capitalism. Hong Kong and Japan are very small geographies so the dynamic is very different. However, if you take energy away from any of them and you will still have failure.

Somehow, everyone missed the point I was trying to make.... or more likely I did a terrible job of making my point.

The prior poster made the claim that energy is what drives the economy. He wasn't talking about being able to get energy to drive the economy.

Any economy can get energy. All you have to do is earn money, and buy it.

He was referring to the natural supply of energy. Meaning we have coal, and oil, and other sources of energy here in the US.

My point to everyone is that, even if we had zero natural supply of energy, we would still have a booming economy, because we can buy the energy we need. We know this because.... we do that now. We buy energy from all over the world.

As long as you work and produce goods and services, you can buy any energy you need. This is why Hong Kong with zero natural energy sources, has a 1st world economy. Same with all the other countries I listed.

As for the Arab Oil Embargo..... it did nothing. Absolutely nothing. The reason we had gasoline shortages in the US, was because of price controls.

Remember what I just said before, anyone can get all the energy they need, if they are willing to pay for it?

The reverse is also true. It doesn't matter how much natural energy sources you have, if you are not willing to pay for it.

When the government put in place price controls in the 1970s, that was effectively us refusing to pay for energy. Then you act shocked we had a gasoline shortage nation wide?

You see this in Venezuela today.

Venezuela's Fuel Shortage Upends Longtime Colombian Border Gas Smuggling Trade

Motorists near Colombia's border with Venezuela used to opt for cheaper, smuggled gas from the neighboring country. Now the tables have turned.

www.npr.org

Venezuela Gasoline Prices

Gasoline Prices in Venezuela remained unchanged at 0.02 USD/Liter in April. This page provides the latest reported value for - Venezuela Gasoline Prices - plus previous releases, historical high and low, short-term forecast and long-term prediction, economic calendar, survey consensus and news.

tradingeconomics.com

Venezuela has a nation wide gasoline shortage. Left-wingers like to try and blame US sanctions, but all you need to do is look at the government controlled prices for gasoline, and you can clearly see why they have shortages.

2¢ per liter. Translation... The government set price for gasoline in Venezuela is 7.6¢ per gallon.

Then you wonder why they don't have money to produce and refine oil in Venezuela, and why the nation with the most known oil reserves has a nation wide shortage of oil and gasoline?

You want to blame US sanctions, when they are charging 7.6¢ per gallon of gas?

So my whole point is, no economy is entirely dependent on energy, unless you make it dependent on energy. As long as you produce goods and services of value, you can buy all the energy you need, provided you are willing to pay for it.

By the way, this is yet another reason people should automatically be suspicious of any politicians that says he can lower prices on something. California tried capping electricity prices, and the result was rolling blackouts.

Venezuela, by the way, also cut electricity prices after Hugo Chavez nationalized the electric companies, and now they have routine blackouts that are nation wide.

Way off.
Anyone can buy energy but the price is dictated by supply. When the US has enough potential supply to reduce the price, the economy thrives. When Arabs cut supply, the price increases and that slows economies. When governments apply superficial price controls during an energy drought, the supply runs out and you have shortages.

Simply not factually true. The Arabs didn't cut supply at all.

Further, the cause and effect relationship between oil and the economy, is the reverse. When the economy increases, the price of oil generally goes up. When the economy crashes, the price of oil general goes down.

Now what is true, is that the price of oil sold by Saudi Arabia, was a fixed price. That fixed price, meant that the inflation price of gasoline was decreasing year over year, because the Arabs were getting less money. $20 for a barrel of oil, was not worth as much in 1970s, as it was in 1960, or 1950, or 1940 even.

The Saudis made do with this, because the value of the dollar was declining very slowly.

Well, that changed when Nixion decoupled the dollar from the gold standard. This was unavoidable, and has repercussions, namely that the Saudis started floating oil sales at market price, which was a shock...... that's why they called it "The Nixon Shock".

Nixon shock - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But the idea that the Arabs cut off supply, is a complete and total fabrication. It's not true at all, in any sense.

The reason is fairly simple. Imagine if you will, that you and another person are buying and selling goods.

Now imagine if you get angry at that person, and you decide you will not sell that person goods anymore. Does that mean you simply stop selling goods? Think about that very carefully, does that mean you simply close down, and stop selling anything, and go be homeless? Family out on the street?

No of course not. Well, to this day, most of the Saudi government is entirely built on oil revenue.

Saudi Arabia: breakdown of revenue by source 2021 | Statista

The government of Saudi Arabia estimated that 558 billion Saudi Riyal of its revenue for 2021 was generated from oil.

www.statista.com

To this very day, 68% of the revenue into the Saudi government is exclusively oil exports. You shut that off, the entire nation of Saudi Arabia would end in chaos, and anarchy.

So what you are you going to? You are going to keep selling your products.

In steps me, the capitalist. I'll buy your products.

You know why I'm going to be willing to buy up all the products you sell? Because I know someone right now, who is very much in need of your products.

The guy you are no longer selling to.

I'm going to buy your products up at a discount (because your biggest buyer you are not selling to anymore), and then I'm going to sell them to that guy you won't, for a profit.

He's still going to get the products.

This is exactly what happened during the embargo. The Arabs all still sold the oil, just not to the US. But buyers in Asia and Europe, and Africa, seeing a golden opportunity, spun right around and sold that oil to the US.

There was no cut in supply.

The cause of all shortages was due to price controls.

As for the over all price of oil causing real harm to the economy, I've seen precious little to suggest it does.

When oil Spiked to $140 a barrel in 2008, the change in airline fares to cover that cost was roughly $20. When the cost to fill up the tank was $3/gallon, compared to $2/gallon today, was about $45 a month.

That assumes people don't buy more fuel efficient cars when the price goes up, which we know they do, and thus offsets that increase in cost.

Now obviously cheaper energy will result in at least some amount of benefit to the economy. But again, Japan with half the population, and almost.... not quite but almost no natural energy sources at all.... still 3rd largest economy in the world. *shrug*.

You left out the most important thing. The Presidents prior to Nixon would crack open the Strategic Reserves (capped US Wells) and bring the prices down whenever the ME tried to go nuts with their prices. The ME would intentionally slow down pumping which would raise prices but with the Strategic Reserve making up the difference, the prices stayed constant. Nixon chose not to use that method. The "Gas Shortage" was created that way.

Um.................. fail? The name is Strategic Petroleum Reserves.

Strategic Petroleum Reserve (United States) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You are correct that Nixon did not 'crack open the strategic petroleum reserves'.... that is correct. You are absolutely 100% correct.

Because they didn't exist.

​

The United States started the petroleum reserve in 1975 after oil supplies were interrupted during the 1973–1974 oil embargo, to mitigate future supply disruptions.​

Do tell how "Presidents prior to Nixon" were able to 'crack open' the petroleum reserves that did not exist until the year after Nixon left office?

Further, the SPR, has virtually no real world effect on prices. None. We use far too much oil, for the tiny amount in the SPR, to be of any market impact.

The absolute largest sale of oil ever made, was in 2017, when they sold 190 Million barrels.

The US uses 20 Million a day. That's 9 days worth of oil. That's it. It is literally and figuratively an oil drop in the bucket compared to the US yearly use, or world wide yearly use of oil, and would have zero impact on oil prices.

There was never any attempt to steady oil prices prior to Nixon, and no attempts to steady oil prices after Carter.

Nixon and Carter are the only two presidents that ever attempted anything to control or stead the price of oil, and both resulted in shortages.

The SPR was never used to try and mitigate prices. You can look up what it was used for. Never once did they mention trying to control prices. And even the ones where they sold for reasons like 'disruption to supply', was joke. For example after Hurricane Katrina, they sold 11 Million barrels of oil. That isn't even 12 hours of the US's daily oil consumption.

Like most things that government wastes hundreds of billions of dollars on... the SPR is used to pay back political supporters... because I guarantee you that the people managing those oil reserves for the US government, are political supporters that are making a really good profit from just siting there on oil, and doing nothing with it....

And it's to use as a convenient political football to kick around, so that dumb people think government is protecting them.

Ever time something happens, they sell off a few million barrels, so that they can say to dumb voters "Look what we did for you!".... and people dumb enough to buy that.

Funny that we in the Military knew about the Strategic Oil Reserve before 1975 and you think it was created under a different name in 1975. The old Strategic Oil Reserve didn't buy Petroleum. I required X number of Oil Wells to be capped off to be held in reserve. The United States always did have the ability to be Oil free from the world from day one. The Oil Production would mysteriously be supplimented by a million barrrels a day whenever the ME and others would get hinky like the 1967 Israeli War where the ME refused to ship to countries that were friendly to Israel and again in 1973. That oil production didn't magically appear. The oil was there in capped wells. But the Internet seems to have left that part out. It does tall of the million barrels of oil but it doesn't tell where it came from. Well, cupcake, that's where it came from. There was a Strategic Oil Reserve before the Strategic Petroleum Reserve ever existed.

 

[Roudy]

The stock market rallied because of news of the vaccine I record time, which is due to Trump's efforts. But I bet Biden will somehow take credit for it.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The stock market rallied because of news of the vaccine I record time, which is due to Trump's efforts. But I bet Biden will somehow take credit for it.

You are only partially right. It was because of the Covid Vaccine. But your claim that it was due to Rumps efforts is as fake as your warrior taking out the guy with the shield. If you look closely, the shield never touches the falling warrior.

 

[Roudy]

The stock market rallied because of news of the vaccine I record time, which is due to Trump's efforts. But I bet Biden will somehow take credit for it.

You are only partially right. It was because of the Covid Vaccine. But your claim that it was due to Rumps efforts is as fake as your warrior taking out the guy with the shield. If you look closely, the shield never touches the falling warrior.

He created the infrastructure and incentivized the creation of a vaccine, in record time. Oh wait, you're going to claim it was because of Biden, Pelosi and the rest of the corrupt Democrat goons. Nothing Trump ever did was good, was it, on the other hand, everything Biden and the Left do are perfect.

 

[Andylusion]

Really?

So you should only have your property protected if you pay taxes? Because last I checked a little less than half the countries pays zero income tax.

So if your son or daughter works at McDonald's and doesn't pay tax, then I can steel their car? Rob their house?

Or are you full of crap?

Really. Is this not how the argument goes?

Doesn't the argument go that if you are here and not a citizen paying taxes like a citizen you do not deserve the same as a citizen?

If you are an American company that runs off to another country to avoid paying taxes to support the system you want to use to protect you, you do not deserve that protection. Run to the country you ran off to.

I should pay taxes to protect the property of a company that ran off to avoid paying taxes?

So I should be able to steal your son or daughters cars and property, because I guarantee they are not paying tax.

You agree with that, or not?

If that son or daughter is in another country it shouldn't be prosecuted in this country.

Oh, so taxes doesn't have anything to do with whether your property should be protected?

As long as they live in the US, whether they pay taxes or not, they should have their property be protected?

You just blew up your argument. Thank you, have a nice day.

Hardly, The company in question is not located in the US is it?

Depends. Some companies have moved out of the US, yes.

Which is another reason why we want lower corporate tax rates. If the company moves out of the US, then we lose tons of tax revenue, and jobs, and domestic investment.

 

[Andylusion]

And will diminish in time. Beware of air.

Nah baby. Market is blowing up for Biden. Make it rain!

You are part of the ignorance that created this dilemma.
Energy drives the economy. Every ebb and flow has been driven by energy going back to the robust 50’s and 60’s through the hardships from the post-Arab-oil-embargo through the boon of the 80’s and 90’s and then through the hard times generated by an accelerated global economy and its squeeze-down on supply.
W’s removal of the offshore moratorium dropped prices dramatically, then enter Obama. He reinstated the moratorium and the subsequent energy costs drove the economy into the ditch until fracking (which Obama opposed but couldn’t prevent) came along. Trump exacerbated that supply line by removing regulations and we became robust to the level of the 50’s and 60’s again.
Now that communists have won and forced this forfeiture of our Cold War victory, energy will go back up and we will suffer again.

Energy is not what drives an entire economy. Hong Kong is entirely dependent on energy imports. Japan is mostly dependent on energy imports. Singapore, Tiawan, South Korea, Israel, dozens of countries have first world economies, while having no energy supplies.

Meanwhile, the Soviet Union, and Russia today, have tons of energy all over the place, and are poor.

Venezuela has the most known oil reserves in the world, and they are now in ruins. And no, it's not because of sanctions, unless you don't know how sanctions work.

Energy per growth. Venezuela has the energy part but no capitalism. Hong Kong and Japan are very small geographies so the dynamic is very different. However, if you take energy away from any of them and you will still have failure.

Somehow, everyone missed the point I was trying to make.... or more likely I did a terrible job of making my point.

The prior poster made the claim that energy is what drives the economy. He wasn't talking about being able to get energy to drive the economy.

Any economy can get energy. All you have to do is earn money, and buy it.

He was referring to the natural supply of energy. Meaning we have coal, and oil, and other sources of energy here in the US.

My point to everyone is that, even if we had zero natural supply of energy, we would still have a booming economy, because we can buy the energy we need. We know this because.... we do that now. We buy energy from all over the world.

As long as you work and produce goods and services, you can buy any energy you need. This is why Hong Kong with zero natural energy sources, has a 1st world economy. Same with all the other countries I listed.

As for the Arab Oil Embargo..... it did nothing. Absolutely nothing. The reason we had gasoline shortages in the US, was because of price controls.

Remember what I just said before, anyone can get all the energy they need, if they are willing to pay for it?

The reverse is also true. It doesn't matter how much natural energy sources you have, if you are not willing to pay for it.

When the government put in place price controls in the 1970s, that was effectively us refusing to pay for energy. Then you act shocked we had a gasoline shortage nation wide?

You see this in Venezuela today.

Venezuela's Fuel Shortage Upends Longtime Colombian Border Gas Smuggling Trade

Motorists near Colombia's border with Venezuela used to opt for cheaper, smuggled gas from the neighboring country. Now the tables have turned.

www.npr.org

Venezuela Gasoline Prices

Gasoline Prices in Venezuela remained unchanged at 0.02 USD/Liter in April. This page provides the latest reported value for - Venezuela Gasoline Prices - plus previous releases, historical high and low, short-term forecast and long-term prediction, economic calendar, survey consensus and news.

tradingeconomics.com

Venezuela has a nation wide gasoline shortage. Left-wingers like to try and blame US sanctions, but all you need to do is look at the government controlled prices for gasoline, and you can clearly see why they have shortages.

2¢ per liter. Translation... The government set price for gasoline in Venezuela is 7.6¢ per gallon.

Then you wonder why they don't have money to produce and refine oil in Venezuela, and why the nation with the most known oil reserves has a nation wide shortage of oil and gasoline?

You want to blame US sanctions, when they are charging 7.6¢ per gallon of gas?

So my whole point is, no economy is entirely dependent on energy, unless you make it dependent on energy. As long as you produce goods and services of value, you can buy all the energy you need, provided you are willing to pay for it.

By the way, this is yet another reason people should automatically be suspicious of any politicians that says he can lower prices on something. California tried capping electricity prices, and the result was rolling blackouts.

Venezuela, by the way, also cut electricity prices after Hugo Chavez nationalized the electric companies, and now they have routine blackouts that are nation wide.

Way off.
Anyone can buy energy but the price is dictated by supply. When the US has enough potential supply to reduce the price, the economy thrives. When Arabs cut supply, the price increases and that slows economies. When governments apply superficial price controls during an energy drought, the supply runs out and you have shortages.

Simply not factually true. The Arabs didn't cut supply at all.

Further, the cause and effect relationship between oil and the economy, is the reverse. When the economy increases, the price of oil generally goes up. When the economy crashes, the price of oil general goes down.

Now what is true, is that the price of oil sold by Saudi Arabia, was a fixed price. That fixed price, meant that the inflation price of gasoline was decreasing year over year, because the Arabs were getting less money. $20 for a barrel of oil, was not worth as much in 1970s, as it was in 1960, or 1950, or 1940 even.

The Saudis made do with this, because the value of the dollar was declining very slowly.

Well, that changed when Nixion decoupled the dollar from the gold standard. This was unavoidable, and has repercussions, namely that the Saudis started floating oil sales at market price, which was a shock...... that's why they called it "The Nixon Shock".

Nixon shock - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But the idea that the Arabs cut off supply, is a complete and total fabrication. It's not true at all, in any sense.

The reason is fairly simple. Imagine if you will, that you and another person are buying and selling goods.

Now imagine if you get angry at that person, and you decide you will not sell that person goods anymore. Does that mean you simply stop selling goods? Think about that very carefully, does that mean you simply close down, and stop selling anything, and go be homeless? Family out on the street?

No of course not. Well, to this day, most of the Saudi government is entirely built on oil revenue.

Saudi Arabia: breakdown of revenue by source 2021 | Statista

The government of Saudi Arabia estimated that 558 billion Saudi Riyal of its revenue for 2021 was generated from oil.

www.statista.com

To this very day, 68% of the revenue into the Saudi government is exclusively oil exports. You shut that off, the entire nation of Saudi Arabia would end in chaos, and anarchy.

So what you are you going to? You are going to keep selling your products.

In steps me, the capitalist. I'll buy your products.

You know why I'm going to be willing to buy up all the products you sell? Because I know someone right now, who is very much in need of your products.

The guy you are no longer selling to.

I'm going to buy your products up at a discount (because your biggest buyer you are not selling to anymore), and then I'm going to sell them to that guy you won't, for a profit.

He's still going to get the products.

This is exactly what happened during the embargo. The Arabs all still sold the oil, just not to the US. But buyers in Asia and Europe, and Africa, seeing a golden opportunity, spun right around and sold that oil to the US.

There was no cut in supply.

The cause of all shortages was due to price controls.

As for the over all price of oil causing real harm to the economy, I've seen precious little to suggest it does.

When oil Spiked to $140 a barrel in 2008, the change in airline fares to cover that cost was roughly $20. When the cost to fill up the tank was $3/gallon, compared to $2/gallon today, was about $45 a month.

That assumes people don't buy more fuel efficient cars when the price goes up, which we know they do, and thus offsets that increase in cost.

Now obviously cheaper energy will result in at least some amount of benefit to the economy. But again, Japan with half the population, and almost.... not quite but almost no natural energy sources at all.... still 3rd largest economy in the world. *shrug*.

You left out the most important thing. The Presidents prior to Nixon would crack open the Strategic Reserves (capped US Wells) and bring the prices down whenever the ME tried to go nuts with their prices. The ME would intentionally slow down pumping which would raise prices but with the Strategic Reserve making up the difference, the prices stayed constant. Nixon chose not to use that method. The "Gas Shortage" was created that way.

Um.................. fail? The name is Strategic Petroleum Reserves.

Strategic Petroleum Reserve (United States) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You are correct that Nixon did not 'crack open the strategic petroleum reserves'.... that is correct. You are absolutely 100% correct.

Because they didn't exist.

​

The United States started the petroleum reserve in 1975 after oil supplies were interrupted during the 1973–1974 oil embargo, to mitigate future supply disruptions.​

Do tell how "Presidents prior to Nixon" were able to 'crack open' the petroleum reserves that did not exist until the year after Nixon left office?

Further, the SPR, has virtually no real world effect on prices. None. We use far too much oil, for the tiny amount in the SPR, to be of any market impact.

The absolute largest sale of oil ever made, was in 2017, when they sold 190 Million barrels.

The US uses 20 Million a day. That's 9 days worth of oil. That's it. It is literally and figuratively an oil drop in the bucket compared to the US yearly use, or world wide yearly use of oil, and would have zero impact on oil prices.

There was never any attempt to steady oil prices prior to Nixon, and no attempts to steady oil prices after Carter.

Nixon and Carter are the only two presidents that ever attempted anything to control or stead the price of oil, and both resulted in shortages.

The SPR was never used to try and mitigate prices. You can look up what it was used for. Never once did they mention trying to control prices. And even the ones where they sold for reasons like 'disruption to supply', was joke. For example after Hurricane Katrina, they sold 11 Million barrels of oil. That isn't even 12 hours of the US's daily oil consumption.

Like most things that government wastes hundreds of billions of dollars on... the SPR is used to pay back political supporters... because I guarantee you that the people managing those oil reserves for the US government, are political supporters that are making a really good profit from just siting there on oil, and doing nothing with it....

And it's to use as a convenient political football to kick around, so that dumb people think government is protecting them.

Ever time something happens, they sell off a few million barrels, so that they can say to dumb voters "Look what we did for you!".... and people dumb enough to buy that.

Funny that we in the Military knew about the Strategic Oil Reserve before 1975 and you think it was created under a different name in 1975. The old Strategic Oil Reserve didn't buy Petroleum. I required X number of Oil Wells to be capped off to be held in reserve. The United States always did have the ability to be Oil free from the world from day one. The Oil Production would mysteriously be supplimented by a million barrrels a day whenever the ME and others would get hinky like the 1967 Israeli War where the ME refused to ship to countries that were friendly to Israel and again in 1973. That oil production didn't magically appear. The oil was there in capped wells. But the Internet seems to have left that part out. It does tall of the million barrels of oil but it doesn't tell where it came from. Well, cupcake, that's where it came from. There was a Strategic Oil Reserve before the Strategic Petroleum Reserve ever existed.

No. I don't think so. Data seems to contradict you.

First, I can't find any record anywhere of anything you are claiming.

However, in order for your claim to be true, we should be able to find evidence where the amount of imported oil declined, and was made up by your mythical capped oil wells.

U.S. Imports of Crude Oil (Thousand Barrels)

We have data on how much oil was imported into the US, every single month, going back to 1920.

The Arab Oil Embargo started in 1973, and ended in 1974.

In 1972, we were importing 60K barrels a month.
In 1973, the year we were under the embargo, we imported 90K, then 120K, and year by year, the average monthly imported oil increased.

In fact, oil imports were pretty low, and fairly steady, until 1971. That's actually when the price controls on oil started, when Nixon passed the original price controls that lasted the entire 1970s.

Oil imports only started to decline, when Reagan removed the price controls in the 1980s.

And the reason is simple. When you have price controls, no one is going to invest money in the market. Specifically if you place price controls on oil, domestic oil production isn't worth investing into. And that's what happened. Low production wells were shut down. And exploration and oil well digging, virtually stopped.

Regardless, the idea that oil imports declined during the embargo, is just factually not true. In fact, imports of oil increased year over year, for as long as the price controls existed.

 

[Andylusion]

The stock market rallied because of news of the vaccine I record time, which is due to Trump's efforts. But I bet Biden will somehow take credit for it.

You are only partially right. It was because of the Covid Vaccine. But your claim that it was due to Rumps efforts is as fake as your warrior taking out the guy with the shield. If you look closely, the shield never touches the falling warrior.

I've read enough to know that Trump did in fact have his administration push for a vaccine, and reduce regulation requirements, to allow fast R&D. That's not fake. That's fact.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

And will diminish in time. Beware of air.

Nah baby. Market is blowing up for Biden. Make it rain!

You are part of the ignorance that created this dilemma.
Energy drives the economy. Every ebb and flow has been driven by energy going back to the robust 50’s and 60’s through the hardships from the post-Arab-oil-embargo through the boon of the 80’s and 90’s and then through the hard times generated by an accelerated global economy and its squeeze-down on supply.
W’s removal of the offshore moratorium dropped prices dramatically, then enter Obama. He reinstated the moratorium and the subsequent energy costs drove the economy into the ditch until fracking (which Obama opposed but couldn’t prevent) came along. Trump exacerbated that supply line by removing regulations and we became robust to the level of the 50’s and 60’s again.
Now that communists have won and forced this forfeiture of our Cold War victory, energy will go back up and we will suffer again.

Energy is not what drives an entire economy. Hong Kong is entirely dependent on energy imports. Japan is mostly dependent on energy imports. Singapore, Tiawan, South Korea, Israel, dozens of countries have first world economies, while having no energy supplies.

Meanwhile, the Soviet Union, and Russia today, have tons of energy all over the place, and are poor.

Venezuela has the most known oil reserves in the world, and they are now in ruins. And no, it's not because of sanctions, unless you don't know how sanctions work.

Energy per growth. Venezuela has the energy part but no capitalism. Hong Kong and Japan are very small geographies so the dynamic is very different. However, if you take energy away from any of them and you will still have failure.

Somehow, everyone missed the point I was trying to make.... or more likely I did a terrible job of making my point.

The prior poster made the claim that energy is what drives the economy. He wasn't talking about being able to get energy to drive the economy.

Any economy can get energy. All you have to do is earn money, and buy it.

He was referring to the natural supply of energy. Meaning we have coal, and oil, and other sources of energy here in the US.

My point to everyone is that, even if we had zero natural supply of energy, we would still have a booming economy, because we can buy the energy we need. We know this because.... we do that now. We buy energy from all over the world.

As long as you work and produce goods and services, you can buy any energy you need. This is why Hong Kong with zero natural energy sources, has a 1st world economy. Same with all the other countries I listed.

As for the Arab Oil Embargo..... it did nothing. Absolutely nothing. The reason we had gasoline shortages in the US, was because of price controls.

Remember what I just said before, anyone can get all the energy they need, if they are willing to pay for it?

The reverse is also true. It doesn't matter how much natural energy sources you have, if you are not willing to pay for it.

When the government put in place price controls in the 1970s, that was effectively us refusing to pay for energy. Then you act shocked we had a gasoline shortage nation wide?

You see this in Venezuela today.

Venezuela's Fuel Shortage Upends Longtime Colombian Border Gas Smuggling Trade

Motorists near Colombia's border with Venezuela used to opt for cheaper, smuggled gas from the neighboring country. Now the tables have turned.

www.npr.org

Venezuela Gasoline Prices

Gasoline Prices in Venezuela remained unchanged at 0.02 USD/Liter in April. This page provides the latest reported value for - Venezuela Gasoline Prices - plus previous releases, historical high and low, short-term forecast and long-term prediction, economic calendar, survey consensus and news.

tradingeconomics.com

Venezuela has a nation wide gasoline shortage. Left-wingers like to try and blame US sanctions, but all you need to do is look at the government controlled prices for gasoline, and you can clearly see why they have shortages.

2¢ per liter. Translation... The government set price for gasoline in Venezuela is 7.6¢ per gallon.

Then you wonder why they don't have money to produce and refine oil in Venezuela, and why the nation with the most known oil reserves has a nation wide shortage of oil and gasoline?

You want to blame US sanctions, when they are charging 7.6¢ per gallon of gas?

So my whole point is, no economy is entirely dependent on energy, unless you make it dependent on energy. As long as you produce goods and services of value, you can buy all the energy you need, provided you are willing to pay for it.

By the way, this is yet another reason people should automatically be suspicious of any politicians that says he can lower prices on something. California tried capping electricity prices, and the result was rolling blackouts.

Venezuela, by the way, also cut electricity prices after Hugo Chavez nationalized the electric companies, and now they have routine blackouts that are nation wide.

Way off.
Anyone can buy energy but the price is dictated by supply. When the US has enough potential supply to reduce the price, the economy thrives. When Arabs cut supply, the price increases and that slows economies. When governments apply superficial price controls during an energy drought, the supply runs out and you have shortages.

Simply not factually true. The Arabs didn't cut supply at all.

Further, the cause and effect relationship between oil and the economy, is the reverse. When the economy increases, the price of oil generally goes up. When the economy crashes, the price of oil general goes down.

Now what is true, is that the price of oil sold by Saudi Arabia, was a fixed price. That fixed price, meant that the inflation price of gasoline was decreasing year over year, because the Arabs were getting less money. $20 for a barrel of oil, was not worth as much in 1970s, as it was in 1960, or 1950, or 1940 even.

The Saudis made do with this, because the value of the dollar was declining very slowly.

Well, that changed when Nixion decoupled the dollar from the gold standard. This was unavoidable, and has repercussions, namely that the Saudis started floating oil sales at market price, which was a shock...... that's why they called it "The Nixon Shock".

Nixon shock - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But the idea that the Arabs cut off supply, is a complete and total fabrication. It's not true at all, in any sense.

The reason is fairly simple. Imagine if you will, that you and another person are buying and selling goods.

Now imagine if you get angry at that person, and you decide you will not sell that person goods anymore. Does that mean you simply stop selling goods? Think about that very carefully, does that mean you simply close down, and stop selling anything, and go be homeless? Family out on the street?

No of course not. Well, to this day, most of the Saudi government is entirely built on oil revenue.

Saudi Arabia: breakdown of revenue by source 2021 | Statista

The government of Saudi Arabia estimated that 558 billion Saudi Riyal of its revenue for 2021 was generated from oil.

www.statista.com

To this very day, 68% of the revenue into the Saudi government is exclusively oil exports. You shut that off, the entire nation of Saudi Arabia would end in chaos, and anarchy.

So what you are you going to? You are going to keep selling your products.

In steps me, the capitalist. I'll buy your products.

You know why I'm going to be willing to buy up all the products you sell? Because I know someone right now, who is very much in need of your products.

The guy you are no longer selling to.

I'm going to buy your products up at a discount (because your biggest buyer you are not selling to anymore), and then I'm going to sell them to that guy you won't, for a profit.

He's still going to get the products.

This is exactly what happened during the embargo. The Arabs all still sold the oil, just not to the US. But buyers in Asia and Europe, and Africa, seeing a golden opportunity, spun right around and sold that oil to the US.

There was no cut in supply.

The cause of all shortages was due to price controls.

As for the over all price of oil causing real harm to the economy, I've seen precious little to suggest it does.

When oil Spiked to $140 a barrel in 2008, the change in airline fares to cover that cost was roughly $20. When the cost to fill up the tank was $3/gallon, compared to $2/gallon today, was about $45 a month.

That assumes people don't buy more fuel efficient cars when the price goes up, which we know they do, and thus offsets that increase in cost.

Now obviously cheaper energy will result in at least some amount of benefit to the economy. But again, Japan with half the population, and almost.... not quite but almost no natural energy sources at all.... still 3rd largest economy in the world. *shrug*.

You left out the most important thing. The Presidents prior to Nixon would crack open the Strategic Reserves (capped US Wells) and bring the prices down whenever the ME tried to go nuts with their prices. The ME would intentionally slow down pumping which would raise prices but with the Strategic Reserve making up the difference, the prices stayed constant. Nixon chose not to use that method. The "Gas Shortage" was created that way.

Um.................. fail? The name is Strategic Petroleum Reserves.

Strategic Petroleum Reserve (United States) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You are correct that Nixon did not 'crack open the strategic petroleum reserves'.... that is correct. You are absolutely 100% correct.

Because they didn't exist.

​

The United States started the petroleum reserve in 1975 after oil supplies were interrupted during the 1973–1974 oil embargo, to mitigate future supply disruptions.​

Do tell how "Presidents prior to Nixon" were able to 'crack open' the petroleum reserves that did not exist until the year after Nixon left office?

Further, the SPR, has virtually no real world effect on prices. None. We use far too much oil, for the tiny amount in the SPR, to be of any market impact.

The absolute largest sale of oil ever made, was in 2017, when they sold 190 Million barrels.

The US uses 20 Million a day. That's 9 days worth of oil. That's it. It is literally and figuratively an oil drop in the bucket compared to the US yearly use, or world wide yearly use of oil, and would have zero impact on oil prices.

There was never any attempt to steady oil prices prior to Nixon, and no attempts to steady oil prices after Carter.

Nixon and Carter are the only two presidents that ever attempted anything to control or stead the price of oil, and both resulted in shortages.

The SPR was never used to try and mitigate prices. You can look up what it was used for. Never once did they mention trying to control prices. And even the ones where they sold for reasons like 'disruption to supply', was joke. For example after Hurricane Katrina, they sold 11 Million barrels of oil. That isn't even 12 hours of the US's daily oil consumption.

Like most things that government wastes hundreds of billions of dollars on... the SPR is used to pay back political supporters... because I guarantee you that the people managing those oil reserves for the US government, are political supporters that are making a really good profit from just siting there on oil, and doing nothing with it....

And it's to use as a convenient political football to kick around, so that dumb people think government is protecting them.

Ever time something happens, they sell off a few million barrels, so that they can say to dumb voters "Look what we did for you!".... and people dumb enough to buy that.

Funny that we in the Military knew about the Strategic Oil Reserve before 1975 and you think it was created under a different name in 1975. The old Strategic Oil Reserve didn't buy Petroleum. I required X number of Oil Wells to be capped off to be held in reserve. The United States always did have the ability to be Oil free from the world from day one. The Oil Production would mysteriously be supplimented by a million barrrels a day whenever the ME and others would get hinky like the 1967 Israeli War where the ME refused to ship to countries that were friendly to Israel and again in 1973. That oil production didn't magically appear. The oil was there in capped wells. But the Internet seems to have left that part out. It does tall of the million barrels of oil but it doesn't tell where it came from. Well, cupcake, that's where it came from. There was a Strategic Oil Reserve before the Strategic Petroleum Reserve ever existed.

No. I don't think so. Data seems to contradict you.

First, I can't find any record anywhere of anything you are claiming.

However, in order for your claim to be true, we should be able to find evidence where the amount of imported oil declined, and was made up by your mythical capped oil wells.

U.S. Imports of Crude Oil (Thousand Barrels)

We have data on how much oil was imported into the US, every single month, going back to 1920.

The Arab Oil Embargo started in 1973, and ended in 1974.

In 1972, we were importing 60K barrels a month.
In 1973, the year we were under the embargo, we imported 90K, then 120K, and year by year, the average monthly imported oil increased.

In fact, oil imports were pretty low, and fairly steady, until 1971. That's actually when the price controls on oil started, when Nixon passed the original price controls that lasted the entire 1970s.

Oil imports only started to decline, when Reagan removed the price controls in the 1980s.

And the reason is simple. When you have price controls, no one is going to invest money in the market. Specifically if you place price controls on oil, domestic oil production isn't worth investing into. And that's what happened. Low production wells were shut down. And exploration and oil well digging, virtually stopped.

Regardless, the idea that oil imports declined during the embargo, is just factually not true. In fact, imports of oil increased year over year, for as long as the price controls existed.

Two things.

One: You aren't old enough to know
Two: Just because it's not on the internet doesn't make it true or untrue.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The stock market rallied because of news of the vaccine I record time, which is due to Trump's efforts. But I bet Biden will somehow take credit for it.

You are only partially right. It was because of the Covid Vaccine. But your claim that it was due to Rumps efforts is as fake as your warrior taking out the guy with the shield. If you look closely, the shield never touches the falling warrior.

I've read enough to know that Trump did in fact have his administration push for a vaccine, and reduce regulation requirements, to allow fast R&D. That's not fake. That's fact.

The Vaccine is from a German Company which Rump has nothing to do with. Once again, you are giving Rump credit for someone else's efforts.