They don't make Republican consevatives like they used to

[HUGGY]

As for Obama keeping a black book on conservatives he's going to "get"? He's

We don't elect Emperors here, Huggy. When one is elected President of the United States it's a position with power but it isn't absolute power. The Founding Fathers deliberately set things up so that the Congress and the Supreme Court would provide checks and balances to Presidential power. I know you don't LIKE that but it is what it is!

The reason that Democrats lost big in both 2010 and 2014 is that the electorate wasn't happy with the progressive agenda that was being shoved down their throats. I'm amused by your contention that America has been besieged by a negative Obama news blitz. The truth of the matter is that Barack Obama has been treated with kid gloves by the majority of the main stream media. His main critic has been Fox News...one television station among CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, MSNBC, and Public Broadcasting stations that have given him nothing but love. It was Barack Obama who publicly declared that his policies WERE on the ballot this election. If we take him at his word then his policies took another shellacking.

You really need to sell your propaganda elsewhere. I was clear. You are not. I was not talking about the TV news organizations. Unless you are dumber than I give you credit you know exactly to whom I was refering about the forces in the GOP that promised they would ensure Obama failed. They represent the states where the home offices of the greedy bastards that run the largest HMO's reside. They have raped the citizens of this country for health care and put up more than a billion dollars trying to reverse Obama's attempt to make health care affordable for most Americans that were under insured or could not afford any health insurance at all. That is what most of this battle is about. Americans voted for Obama to let him do what he could to make healthcare available to all Americans. That is what he ran on. There was no hidden agenda. Only a subversive on the side of the wealthy feinds that have America by the throat in a battle to squeeze every last dime out of the publics health care system would be defending these POS's.

So I take it that you are NOT stupid...just a scumbag that is working on behalf of the monsters attempting to hold America hostage over it's health costs.

Stop trying to tell me nonsense and lies. I am in no mood for your subtrafuge.

Barack Obama RAN on promises that Americans would be able to keep their health care plans if they liked them...keep their doctors if they liked them...and if you were a Middle Class family...that the ACA would save you about $2,500 a year in healthcare costs. All of those things were lies...lies deliberately told by Barack Obama and progressives to convince Americans who desperately wanted healthcare reform that the ACA would lower their healthcare costs. The Gruber videos simply exposed that Obama and his minions didn't guess wrong on what the ACA would mean to the average American. Oh, no...Gruber's videos show that they knew EXACTLY what would happen to the healthcare costs of the average Middle Class American and lied their asses off about it because they wanted to take that first step towards government run healthcare.

You have the gall to accuse me of lying when all I've done is point out the lies told by the people you support? If I hadn't seen how clueless you are about most things to do with the ACA, I'd accuse you of being as dishonest as Barry and his little buddies like Gruber. I'm coming to the conclusion however that you're the exact person that Gruber is referring to when he talks about the stupidity of the American voter.

There are several aspects that get overlooked, and boiled down into talking points that create fasle and misleading impressions.

Obama screwed up when he prmised you'd get to keep your plan. He didn't stop to think that the 10 essential benefits that must be offered with health insurance policies would increase the cost, which causes, from an operational perspective, the insurance companies to add those benefits to existing plans, thus creating a new group ID# for those plans, which makes them NOT the same plan.

Not being able to keep thier doctors is 100% on the providers, and not the ACA. He didn't stop to think that providers would chose NOT to contract with the ACA plans, especially the HMO's. But there has to be more to it. Providers that accept Medicare aleady settle for around 75% reimbursement, and Medicaid about 25%!...the ACA plans run about 80%. I know of many doctors in the very red state I work with, won't take the ACA plans for political reasons. Many of the residents of this state, hate HMO's, and will only get PPO's. With the ACA PPO plans, there is no shortage of providers because it's fee for service, not capitation.

These HMO VS PPO contracting issues pre-date the ACA.

Whats happening is, by simplification, the GOP has been able to blame every new, systemic, and preexisting cost driver for medical insurance out of pocket costs on the ACA.

What you can't parse, and comprehend, without 1-2 years of training and education in how the industry works...is how much of these cost increases would still be there anyway without the ACA

Kindly explain to me how it is that Barack Obama didn't grasp the same things that you claim are so self evident if you know anything about healthcare insurance? Are you telling me that his signature legislative achievement...something that profoundly affects one sixth of our economy...was written by people that understand less about healthcare and the insurance industry than you do and that he simply didn't understand what he was talking about?

It's hard to square THAT notion with the reality that this was something put together by people LIKE Gruber who have PhD's in that very subject. I'm sorry but this wasn't a "miscalculation" by progressives, Toxic...this was a very calculated plan to put something over on the American people because they felt that the "end" justified the "means".

Obama, in terms of involvement, and micro management of it's details...and the many many authors of Obamacare, were probably busy putting the legal touches on the legislation because that's what Obama knows. Obama does not understand the insurance business, or the healthcare business.

Granted, he may very well have seen into the future and lied. However...the things that Gruber talks about have nothing to do with what I talked about.

I don't question your intellect or reasoning skills. I do question your capacity to consider the possibility that these may be unintended consequences, of a law that we had to pass to find out what's in it.

It doesn't/didn't take a rocket surgeon to understand the unvarnished greed of the health care system corporations.

 

[auditor0007]

But it isn't Extreme for a President of the Democrat party to call Republicans, terrorist, hostage takers, flat earthers, Deniers. blah blah blah

Your Progressive/Democrat/commie is nothing BUT radical extremist. so work on them you really give a crap or just cry us a River over a Republican saying something

I am a life long Republican and some of those in my party are all of those things. I do not claim the Democrats don't have their own nut cases - they most certainly do. But I am more concerned with the state of my own house.

I left the house of crazies four years ago. I will still consider candidates from the party of crazies, but it's really hard to find many decent ones.

 

[HUGGY]

As for Obama keeping a black book on conservatives he's going to "get"? He's

You really need to sell your propaganda elsewhere. I was clear. You are not. I was not talking about the TV news organizations. Unless you are dumber than I give you credit you know exactly to whom I was refering about the forces in the GOP that promised they would ensure Obama failed. They represent the states where the home offices of the greedy bastards that run the largest HMO's reside. They have raped the citizens of this country for health care and put up more than a billion dollars trying to reverse Obama's attempt to make health care affordable for most Americans that were under insured or could not afford any health insurance at all. That is what most of this battle is about. Americans voted for Obama to let him do what he could to make healthcare available to all Americans. That is what he ran on. There was no hidden agenda. Only a subversive on the side of the wealthy feinds that have America by the throat in a battle to squeeze every last dime out of the publics health care system would be defending these POS's.

So I take it that you are NOT stupid...just a scumbag that is working on behalf of the monsters attempting to hold America hostage over it's health costs.

Stop trying to tell me nonsense and lies. I am in no mood for your subtrafuge.

Barack Obama RAN on promises that Americans would be able to keep their health care plans if they liked them...keep their doctors if they liked them...and if you were a Middle Class family...that the ACA would save you about $2,500 a year in healthcare costs. All of those things were lies...lies deliberately told by Barack Obama and progressives to convince Americans who desperately wanted healthcare reform that the ACA would lower their healthcare costs. The Gruber videos simply exposed that Obama and his minions didn't guess wrong on what the ACA would mean to the average American. Oh, no...Gruber's videos show that they knew EXACTLY what would happen to the healthcare costs of the average Middle Class American and lied their asses off about it because they wanted to take that first step towards government run healthcare.

You have the gall to accuse me of lying when all I've done is point out the lies told by the people you support? If I hadn't seen how clueless you are about most things to do with the ACA, I'd accuse you of being as dishonest as Barry and his little buddies like Gruber. I'm coming to the conclusion however that you're the exact person that Gruber is referring to when he talks about the stupidity of the American voter.

There are several aspects that get overlooked, and boiled down into talking points that create fasle and misleading impressions.

Obama screwed up when he prmised you'd get to keep your plan. He didn't stop to think that the 10 essential benefits that must be offered with health insurance policies would increase the cost, which causes, from an operational perspective, the insurance companies to add those benefits to existing plans, thus creating a new group ID# for those plans, which makes them NOT the same plan.

Not being able to keep thier doctors is 100% on the providers, and not the ACA. He didn't stop to think that providers would chose NOT to contract with the ACA plans, especially the HMO's. But there has to be more to it. Providers that accept Medicare aleady settle for around 75% reimbursement, and Medicaid about 25%!...the ACA plans run about 80%. I know of many doctors in the very red state I work with, won't take the ACA plans for political reasons. Many of the residents of this state, hate HMO's, and will only get PPO's. With the ACA PPO plans, there is no shortage of providers because it's fee for service, not capitation.

These HMO VS PPO contracting issues pre-date the ACA.

Whats happening is, by simplification, the GOP has been able to blame every new, systemic, and preexisting cost driver for medical insurance out of pocket costs on the ACA.

What you can't parse, and comprehend, without 1-2 years of training and education in how the industry works...is how much of these cost increases would still be there anyway without the ACA

Kindly explain to me how it is that Barack Obama didn't grasp the same things that you claim are so self evident if you know anything about healthcare insurance? Are you telling me that his signature legislative achievement...something that profoundly affects one sixth of our economy...was written by people that understand less about healthcare and the insurance industry than you do and that he simply didn't understand what he was talking about?

It's hard to square THAT notion with the reality that this was something put together by people LIKE Gruber who have PhD's in that very subject. I'm sorry but this wasn't a "miscalculation" by progressives, Toxic...this was a very calculated plan to put something over on the American people because they felt that the "end" justified the "means".

Obama, in terms of involvement, and micro management of it's details...and the many many authors of Obamacare, were probably busy putting the legal touches on the legislation because that's what Obama knows. Obama does not understand the insurance business, or the healthcare business.

Granted, he may very well have seen into the future and lied. However...the things that Gruber talks about have nothing to do with what I talked about.

I don't question your intellect or reasoning skills. I do question your capacity to consider the possibility that these may be unintended consequences, of a law that we had to pass to find out what's in it.

It doesn't/didn't take a rocket surgeon to understand the unvarnished greed of the health care system corporations.

It is astonishing that still after the debate over health care that the neo cons STILL believe heath care only belongs to the wealthy.

 

[toxicmedia]

As for Obama keeping a black book on conservatives he's going to "get"? He's

You really need to sell your propaganda elsewhere. I was clear. You are not. I was not talking about the TV news organizations. Unless you are dumber than I give you credit you know exactly to whom I was refering about the forces in the GOP that promised they would ensure Obama failed. They represent the states where the home offices of the greedy bastards that run the largest HMO's reside. They have raped the citizens of this country for health care and put up more than a billion dollars trying to reverse Obama's attempt to make health care affordable for most Americans that were under insured or could not afford any health insurance at all. That is what most of this battle is about. Americans voted for Obama to let him do what he could to make healthcare available to all Americans. That is what he ran on. There was no hidden agenda. Only a subversive on the side of the wealthy feinds that have America by the throat in a battle to squeeze every last dime out of the publics health care system would be defending these POS's.

So I take it that you are NOT stupid...just a scumbag that is working on behalf of the monsters attempting to hold America hostage over it's health costs.

Stop trying to tell me nonsense and lies. I am in no mood for your subtrafuge.

Barack Obama RAN on promises that Americans would be able to keep their health care plans if they liked them...keep their doctors if they liked them...and if you were a Middle Class family...that the ACA would save you about $2,500 a year in healthcare costs. All of those things were lies...lies deliberately told by Barack Obama and progressives to convince Americans who desperately wanted healthcare reform that the ACA would lower their healthcare costs. The Gruber videos simply exposed that Obama and his minions didn't guess wrong on what the ACA would mean to the average American. Oh, no...Gruber's videos show that they knew EXACTLY what would happen to the healthcare costs of the average Middle Class American and lied their asses off about it because they wanted to take that first step towards government run healthcare.

You have the gall to accuse me of lying when all I've done is point out the lies told by the people you support? If I hadn't seen how clueless you are about most things to do with the ACA, I'd accuse you of being as dishonest as Barry and his little buddies like Gruber. I'm coming to the conclusion however that you're the exact person that Gruber is referring to when he talks about the stupidity of the American voter.

There are several aspects that get overlooked, and boiled down into talking points that create fasle and misleading impressions.

Obama screwed up when he prmised you'd get to keep your plan. He didn't stop to think that the 10 essential benefits that must be offered with health insurance policies would increase the cost, which causes, from an operational perspective, the insurance companies to add those benefits to existing plans, thus creating a new group ID# for those plans, which makes them NOT the same plan.

Not being able to keep thier doctors is 100% on the providers, and not the ACA. He didn't stop to think that providers would chose NOT to contract with the ACA plans, especially the HMO's. But there has to be more to it. Providers that accept Medicare aleady settle for around 75% reimbursement, and Medicaid about 25%!...the ACA plans run about 80%. I know of many doctors in the very red state I work with, won't take the ACA plans for political reasons. Many of the residents of this state, hate HMO's, and will only get PPO's. With the ACA PPO plans, there is no shortage of providers because it's fee for service, not capitation.

These HMO VS PPO contracting issues pre-date the ACA.

Whats happening is, by simplification, the GOP has been able to blame every new, systemic, and preexisting cost driver for medical insurance out of pocket costs on the ACA.

What you can't parse, and comprehend, without 1-2 years of training and education in how the industry works...is how much of these cost increases would still be there anyway without the ACA

Kindly explain to me how it is that Barack Obama didn't grasp the same things that you claim are so self evident if you know anything about healthcare insurance? Are you telling me that his signature legislative achievement...something that profoundly affects one sixth of our economy...was written by people that understand less about healthcare and the insurance industry than you do and that he simply didn't understand what he was talking about?

It's hard to square THAT notion with the reality that this was something put together by people LIKE Gruber who have PhD's in that very subject. I'm sorry but this wasn't a "miscalculation" by progressives, Toxic...this was a very calculated plan to put something over on the American people because they felt that the "end" justified the "means".

Obama, in terms of involvement, and micro management of it's details...and the many many authors of Obamacare, were probably busy putting the legal touches on the legislation because that's what Obama knows. Obama does not understand the insurance business, or the healthcare business.

Granted, he may very well have seen into the future and lied. However...the things that Gruber talks about have nothing to do with what I talked about.

I don't question your intellect or reasoning skills. I do question your capacity to consider the possibility that these may be unintended consequences, of a law that we had to pass to find out what's in it.

It doesn't/didn't take a rocket surgeon to understand the unvarnished greed of the health care system corporations.

OMG, a rocket surgeon....now that's funny.

if anything, thanks for the laugh.

But it does take more than a brain surgeon, or a rocket scientist, to understand the ACA, believe me, I've only read about 300 pages, as it relates to my position here...and it's frickken complicated

 

[Oldstyle]

As for Obama keeping a black book on conservatives he's going to "get"? He's

We don't elect Emperors here, Huggy. When one is elected President of the United States it's a position with power but it isn't absolute power. The Founding Fathers deliberately set things up so that the Congress and the Supreme Court would provide checks and balances to Presidential power. I know you don't LIKE that but it is what it is!

The reason that Democrats lost big in both 2010 and 2014 is that the electorate wasn't happy with the progressive agenda that was being shoved down their throats. I'm amused by your contention that America has been besieged by a negative Obama news blitz. The truth of the matter is that Barack Obama has been treated with kid gloves by the majority of the main stream media. His main critic has been Fox News...one television station among CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, MSNBC, and Public Broadcasting stations that have given him nothing but love. It was Barack Obama who publicly declared that his policies WERE on the ballot this election. If we take him at his word then his policies took another shellacking.

You really need to sell your propaganda elsewhere. I was clear. You are not. I was not talking about the TV news organizations. Unless you are dumber than I give you credit you know exactly to whom I was refering about the forces in the GOP that promised they would ensure Obama failed. They represent the states where the home offices of the greedy bastards that run the largest HMO's reside. They have raped the citizens of this country for health care and put up more than a billion dollars trying to reverse Obama's attempt to make health care affordable for most Americans that were under insured or could not afford any health insurance at all. That is what most of this battle is about. Americans voted for Obama to let him do what he could to make healthcare available to all Americans. That is what he ran on. There was no hidden agenda. Only a subversive on the side of the wealthy feinds that have America by the throat in a battle to squeeze every last dime out of the publics health care system would be defending these POS's.

So I take it that you are NOT stupid...just a scumbag that is working on behalf of the monsters attempting to hold America hostage over it's health costs.

Stop trying to tell me nonsense and lies. I am in no mood for your subtrafuge.

Barack Obama RAN on promises that Americans would be able to keep their health care plans if they liked them...keep their doctors if they liked them...and if you were a Middle Class family...that the ACA would save you about $2,500 a year in healthcare costs. All of those things were lies...lies deliberately told by Barack Obama and progressives to convince Americans who desperately wanted healthcare reform that the ACA would lower their healthcare costs. The Gruber videos simply exposed that Obama and his minions didn't guess wrong on what the ACA would mean to the average American. Oh, no...Gruber's videos show that they knew EXACTLY what would happen to the healthcare costs of the average Middle Class American and lied their asses off about it because they wanted to take that first step towards government run healthcare.

You have the gall to accuse me of lying when all I've done is point out the lies told by the people you support? If I hadn't seen how clueless you are about most things to do with the ACA, I'd accuse you of being as dishonest as Barry and his little buddies like Gruber. I'm coming to the conclusion however that you're the exact person that Gruber is referring to when he talks about the stupidity of the American voter.

There are several aspects that get overlooked, and boiled down into talking points that create fasle and misleading impressions.

Obama screwed up when he prmised you'd get to keep your plan. He didn't stop to think that the 10 essential benefits that must be offered with health insurance policies would increase the cost, which causes, from an operational perspective, the insurance companies to add those benefits to existing plans, thus creating a new group ID# for those plans, which makes them NOT the same plan.

Not being able to keep thier doctors is 100% on the providers, and not the ACA. He didn't stop to think that providers would chose NOT to contract with the ACA plans, especially the HMO's. But there has to be more to it. Providers that accept Medicare aleady settle for around 75% reimbursement, and Medicaid about 25%!...the ACA plans run about 80%. I know of many doctors in the very red state I work with, won't take the ACA plans for political reasons. Many of the residents of this state, hate HMO's, and will only get PPO's. With the ACA PPO plans, there is no shortage of providers because it's fee for service, not capitation.

These HMO VS PPO contracting issues pre-date the ACA.

Whats happening is, by simplification, the GOP has been able to blame every new, systemic, and preexisting cost driver for medical insurance out of pocket costs on the ACA.

What you can't parse, and comprehend, without 1-2 years of training and education in how the industry works...is how much of these cost increases would still be there anyway without the ACA

Kindly explain to me how it is that Barack Obama didn't grasp the same things that you claim are so self evident if you know anything about healthcare insurance? Are you telling me that his signature legislative achievement...something that profoundly affects one sixth of our economy...was written by people that understand less about healthcare and the insurance industry than you do and that he simply didn't understand what he was talking about?

It's hard to square THAT notion with the reality that this was something put together by people LIKE Gruber who have PhD's in that very subject. I'm sorry but this wasn't a "miscalculation" by progressives, Toxic...this was a very calculated plan to put something over on the American people because they felt that the "end" justified the "means".

Obama, in terms of involvement, and micro management of it's details...and the many many authors of Obamacare, were probably busy putting the legal touches on the legislation because that's what Obama knows. Obama does not understand the insurance business, or the healthcare business.

Granted, he may very well have seen into the future and lied. However...the things that Gruber talks about have nothing to do with what I talked about.

I don't question your intellect or reasoning skills. I do question your capacity to consider the possibility that these may be unintended consequences, of a law that we had to pass to find out what's in it.

With all due respect, Toxic...after watching him for six years, it's my impression that Obama knows about as much about crafting health care legislation as he does about economics...which is to say...very little! You posit that he was probably so busy "micromanaging" the legalities of the ACA that he didn't really understand the bill itself? That's an amusing concept since Barry has no history of writing successful legislation and has never demonstrated a work ethic that would have him pouring over the minutia of a 2000 plus page bill. Let's be honest here...he was the "big picture" guy who had the "vision" of government supported healthcare for all Americans...he was never the architect of how we would arrive at that.

My take on what happened is that President Obama wanted a single-payer healthcare system...was told he couldn't get the votes for that to pass Congress...and took what he could get before the GOP took over the House...which was a complete cluster fuck written behind closed doors by Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid and rammed through using the nuclear option.

The ACA itself was so bad that Democrats knew they would never get the public to go along with it unless they lied about what it would mean. So they did...repeatedly...and about major provisions in the bill.

 

[toxicmedia]

As for Obama keeping a black book on conservatives he's going to "get"? He's

You really need to sell your propaganda elsewhere. I was clear. You are not. I was not talking about the TV news organizations. Unless you are dumber than I give you credit you know exactly to whom I was refering about the forces in the GOP that promised they would ensure Obama failed. They represent the states where the home offices of the greedy bastards that run the largest HMO's reside. They have raped the citizens of this country for health care and put up more than a billion dollars trying to reverse Obama's attempt to make health care affordable for most Americans that were under insured or could not afford any health insurance at all. That is what most of this battle is about. Americans voted for Obama to let him do what he could to make healthcare available to all Americans. That is what he ran on. There was no hidden agenda. Only a subversive on the side of the wealthy feinds that have America by the throat in a battle to squeeze every last dime out of the publics health care system would be defending these POS's.

So I take it that you are NOT stupid...just a scumbag that is working on behalf of the monsters attempting to hold America hostage over it's health costs.

Stop trying to tell me nonsense and lies. I am in no mood for your subtrafuge.

Barack Obama RAN on promises that Americans would be able to keep their health care plans if they liked them...keep their doctors if they liked them...and if you were a Middle Class family...that the ACA would save you about $2,500 a year in healthcare costs. All of those things were lies...lies deliberately told by Barack Obama and progressives to convince Americans who desperately wanted healthcare reform that the ACA would lower their healthcare costs. The Gruber videos simply exposed that Obama and his minions didn't guess wrong on what the ACA would mean to the average American. Oh, no...Gruber's videos show that they knew EXACTLY what would happen to the healthcare costs of the average Middle Class American and lied their asses off about it because they wanted to take that first step towards government run healthcare.

You have the gall to accuse me of lying when all I've done is point out the lies told by the people you support? If I hadn't seen how clueless you are about most things to do with the ACA, I'd accuse you of being as dishonest as Barry and his little buddies like Gruber. I'm coming to the conclusion however that you're the exact person that Gruber is referring to when he talks about the stupidity of the American voter.

There are several aspects that get overlooked, and boiled down into talking points that create fasle and misleading impressions.

Obama screwed up when he prmised you'd get to keep your plan. He didn't stop to think that the 10 essential benefits that must be offered with health insurance policies would increase the cost, which causes, from an operational perspective, the insurance companies to add those benefits to existing plans, thus creating a new group ID# for those plans, which makes them NOT the same plan.

Not being able to keep thier doctors is 100% on the providers, and not the ACA. He didn't stop to think that providers would chose NOT to contract with the ACA plans, especially the HMO's. But there has to be more to it. Providers that accept Medicare aleady settle for around 75% reimbursement, and Medicaid about 25%!...the ACA plans run about 80%. I know of many doctors in the very red state I work with, won't take the ACA plans for political reasons. Many of the residents of this state, hate HMO's, and will only get PPO's. With the ACA PPO plans, there is no shortage of providers because it's fee for service, not capitation.

These HMO VS PPO contracting issues pre-date the ACA.

Whats happening is, by simplification, the GOP has been able to blame every new, systemic, and preexisting cost driver for medical insurance out of pocket costs on the ACA.

What you can't parse, and comprehend, without 1-2 years of training and education in how the industry works...is how much of these cost increases would still be there anyway without the ACA

Kindly explain to me how it is that Barack Obama didn't grasp the same things that you claim are so self evident if you know anything about healthcare insurance? Are you telling me that his signature legislative achievement...something that profoundly affects one sixth of our economy...was written by people that understand less about healthcare and the insurance industry than you do and that he simply didn't understand what he was talking about?

It's hard to square THAT notion with the reality that this was something put together by people LIKE Gruber who have PhD's in that very subject. I'm sorry but this wasn't a "miscalculation" by progressives, Toxic...this was a very calculated plan to put something over on the American people because they felt that the "end" justified the "means".

Obama, in terms of involvement, and micro management of it's details...and the many many authors of Obamacare, were probably busy putting the legal touches on the legislation because that's what Obama knows. Obama does not understand the insurance business, or the healthcare business.

Granted, he may very well have seen into the future and lied. However...the things that Gruber talks about have nothing to do with what I talked about.

I don't question your intellect or reasoning skills. I do question your capacity to consider the possibility that these may be unintended consequences, of a law that we had to pass to find out what's in it.

With all due respect, Toxic...after watching him for six years, it's my impression that Obama knows about as much about crafting health care legislation as he does about economics...which is to say...very little! You posit that he was probably so busy "micromanaging" the legalities of the ACA that he didn't really understand the bill itself? That's an amusing concept since Barry has no history of writing successful legislation and has never demonstrated a work ethic that would have him pouring over the minutia of a 2000 plus page bill. Let's be honest here...he was the "big picture" guy who had the "vision" of government supported healthcare for all Americans...he was never the architect of how we would arrive at that.

My take on what happened is that President Obama wanted a single-payer healthcare system...was told he couldn't get the votes for that to pass Congress...and took what he could get before the GOP took over the House...which was a complete cluster fuck written behind closed doors by Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid and rammed through using the nuclear option.

The ACA itself was so bad that Democrats knew they would never get the public to go along with it unless they lied about what it would mean. So they did...repeatedly...and about major provisions in the bill.

The idea that Obama knows nothing about crafting health care legislation, and knowing enough to orchestrate palusible lies about it, seems a contradiction.

Your "take" is confirmation of my doubt that you'll consider the objective evidence fairly.

 

[HUGGY]

As for Obama keeping a black book on conservatives he's going to "get"? He's
Barack Obama RAN on promises that Americans would be able to keep their health care plans if they liked them...keep their doctors if they liked them...and if you were a Middle Class family...that the ACA would save you about $2,500 a year in healthcare costs. All of those things were lies...lies deliberately told by Barack Obama and progressives to convince Americans who desperately wanted healthcare reform that the ACA would lower their healthcare costs. The Gruber videos simply exposed that Obama and his minions didn't guess wrong on what the ACA would mean to the average American. Oh, no...Gruber's videos show that they knew EXACTLY what would happen to the healthcare costs of the average Middle Class American and lied their asses off about it because they wanted to take that first step towards government run healthcare.

You have the gall to accuse me of lying when all I've done is point out the lies told by the people you support? If I hadn't seen how clueless you are about most things to do with the ACA, I'd accuse you of being as dishonest as Barry and his little buddies like Gruber. I'm coming to the conclusion however that you're the exact person that Gruber is referring to when he talks about the stupidity of the American voter.

There are several aspects that get overlooked, and boiled down into talking points that create fasle and misleading impressions.

Obama screwed up when he prmised you'd get to keep your plan. He didn't stop to think that the 10 essential benefits that must be offered with health insurance policies would increase the cost, which causes, from an operational perspective, the insurance companies to add those benefits to existing plans, thus creating a new group ID# for those plans, which makes them NOT the same plan.

Not being able to keep thier doctors is 100% on the providers, and not the ACA. He didn't stop to think that providers would chose NOT to contract with the ACA plans, especially the HMO's. But there has to be more to it. Providers that accept Medicare aleady settle for around 75% reimbursement, and Medicaid about 25%!...the ACA plans run about 80%. I know of many doctors in the very red state I work with, won't take the ACA plans for political reasons. Many of the residents of this state, hate HMO's, and will only get PPO's. With the ACA PPO plans, there is no shortage of providers because it's fee for service, not capitation.

These HMO VS PPO contracting issues pre-date the ACA.

Whats happening is, by simplification, the GOP has been able to blame every new, systemic, and preexisting cost driver for medical insurance out of pocket costs on the ACA.

What you can't parse, and comprehend, without 1-2 years of training and education in how the industry works...is how much of these cost increases would still be there anyway without the ACA

Kindly explain to me how it is that Barack Obama didn't grasp the same things that you claim are so self evident if you know anything about healthcare insurance? Are you telling me that his signature legislative achievement...something that profoundly affects one sixth of our economy...was written by people that understand less about healthcare and the insurance industry than you do and that he simply didn't understand what he was talking about?

It's hard to square THAT notion with the reality that this was something put together by people LIKE Gruber who have PhD's in that very subject. I'm sorry but this wasn't a "miscalculation" by progressives, Toxic...this was a very calculated plan to put something over on the American people because they felt that the "end" justified the "means".

Obama, in terms of involvement, and micro management of it's details...and the many many authors of Obamacare, were probably busy putting the legal touches on the legislation because that's what Obama knows. Obama does not understand the insurance business, or the healthcare business.

Granted, he may very well have seen into the future and lied. However...the things that Gruber talks about have nothing to do with what I talked about.

I don't question your intellect or reasoning skills. I do question your capacity to consider the possibility that these may be unintended consequences, of a law that we had to pass to find out what's in it.

With all due respect, Toxic...after watching him for six years, it's my impression that Obama knows about as much about crafting health care legislation as he does about economics...which is to say...very little! You posit that he was probably so busy "micromanaging" the legalities of the ACA that he didn't really understand the bill itself? That's an amusing concept since Barry has no history of writing successful legislation and has never demonstrated a work ethic that would have him pouring over the minutia of a 2000 plus page bill. Let's be honest here...he was the "big picture" guy who had the "vision" of government supported healthcare for all Americans...he was never the architect of how we would arrive at that.

My take on what happened is that President Obama wanted a single-payer healthcare system...was told he couldn't get the votes for that to pass Congress...and took what he could get before the GOP took over the House...which was a complete cluster fuck written behind closed doors by Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid and rammed through using the nuclear option.

The ACA itself was so bad that Democrats knew they would never get the public to go along with it unless they lied about what it would mean. So they did...repeatedly...and about major provisions in the bill.

The idea that Obama knows nothing about crafting health care legislation, and knowing enough to orchestrate palusible lies about it, seems a contradiction.

Your "take" is confirmation of my doubt that you'll consider the objective evidence fairly.

Oh...it is much worse and more sinister than just this one piece of legislation or even this president. The Neo Cons have poisoned the well so thoroughly that we will never see a resident of the white house in the forseeable future that is not bombarded with mindless insults no matter if deserved or not.

These morons have bought into Newt Gingrich's way of communicating with the opposing party without considering the future consequenses of such foolish behavior.

The bar has been permanently lowered into the gutter. They have abused free speech to the point that no sitting president will ever be treated with respect. AND still they don't get it. For some reason they don't understand how human behavior works. Gingrich should be proud of how he destroyed mutual respect of our elected officials.

The howling monkeys the repugs have installed and their mindless minions will never be held responsible for their error in judgement. There will be no intelligent discourse to settle accounts.

Thanks assholes.

 

[Conservative65]

These guys would be drummed out of the GOP is they said things like this today.

Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history.
Dwight D. Eisenhower

Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them."
Barry Goldwater

One can't doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed - different plans have to be made. And the kernal here is the acknowlegement of defeat.
William F Buckley

Freedom is an indivisible word. If we want to enjoy it, and fight for it, we must be prepared to extend it to everyone, whether they are rich or poor, whether they agree with us or not, no matter what their race or the color of their skin
Wendell Willkie

People like this say all sorts of things and the Democrat party holds them to the highest standards:

“I’ll have those ******* voting Democratic for the next 200 years.” - Lyndon Baines Johnson about the Great Society plan.
"You cannot go to a 7-11 or Dunkin Donuts unless you have a slight Indian Accent." -Senator Joe Biden
"You'd find these potentates from down in Africa, you know, rather than eating each other, they'd just come up and get a good square meal in Geneva." -- Fritz Hollings (D, S.C.)
"You f*cking Jew b@stard." -- Hillary Clinton to political operative Paul Fray. This was revealed in "State of a Union: Inside the Complex Marriage of Bill and Hillary Clinton" and has been verified by Paul Fray and three witnesses.

There are plenty more if you're willing to read them.

Thank you...Clinton's stock just went up in my book. The fyucking Jew Bastards have been medling in our country and it's foreign affairs for far too long. If she got elected and all she did was kick Israel to the curb she would have done more for this country than the last 8 presidents all put together.

So you're another one that will vote for her because she has a vagina. Got it.

What an ignorant statement. No ..I will probably not vote. I just don't see the republican party doing anything responsible and Clinton's reported statement that indicated we need to divorce ourselves from alignments with Israel has merit.

"No . . . I will probably not vote"

Since you won't, thinking that any opinion you have has any credibility proves you're stupid. If you aren't going to make the effort to vote, STFU about what you think the government should or should not do.

You simply hate Israel. At least be honest.

 

[Conservative65]

As for Obama keeping a black book on conservatives he's going to "get"? He's
Barack Obama RAN on promises that Americans would be able to keep their health care plans if they liked them...keep their doctors if they liked them...and if you were a Middle Class family...that the ACA would save you about $2,500 a year in healthcare costs. All of those things were lies...lies deliberately told by Barack Obama and progressives to convince Americans who desperately wanted healthcare reform that the ACA would lower their healthcare costs. The Gruber videos simply exposed that Obama and his minions didn't guess wrong on what the ACA would mean to the average American. Oh, no...Gruber's videos show that they knew EXACTLY what would happen to the healthcare costs of the average Middle Class American and lied their asses off about it because they wanted to take that first step towards government run healthcare.

You have the gall to accuse me of lying when all I've done is point out the lies told by the people you support? If I hadn't seen how clueless you are about most things to do with the ACA, I'd accuse you of being as dishonest as Barry and his little buddies like Gruber. I'm coming to the conclusion however that you're the exact person that Gruber is referring to when he talks about the stupidity of the American voter.

There are several aspects that get overlooked, and boiled down into talking points that create fasle and misleading impressions.

Obama screwed up when he prmised you'd get to keep your plan. He didn't stop to think that the 10 essential benefits that must be offered with health insurance policies would increase the cost, which causes, from an operational perspective, the insurance companies to add those benefits to existing plans, thus creating a new group ID# for those plans, which makes them NOT the same plan.

Not being able to keep thier doctors is 100% on the providers, and not the ACA. He didn't stop to think that providers would chose NOT to contract with the ACA plans, especially the HMO's. But there has to be more to it. Providers that accept Medicare aleady settle for around 75% reimbursement, and Medicaid about 25%!...the ACA plans run about 80%. I know of many doctors in the very red state I work with, won't take the ACA plans for political reasons. Many of the residents of this state, hate HMO's, and will only get PPO's. With the ACA PPO plans, there is no shortage of providers because it's fee for service, not capitation.

These HMO VS PPO contracting issues pre-date the ACA.

Whats happening is, by simplification, the GOP has been able to blame every new, systemic, and preexisting cost driver for medical insurance out of pocket costs on the ACA.

What you can't parse, and comprehend, without 1-2 years of training and education in how the industry works...is how much of these cost increases would still be there anyway without the ACA

Kindly explain to me how it is that Barack Obama didn't grasp the same things that you claim are so self evident if you know anything about healthcare insurance? Are you telling me that his signature legislative achievement...something that profoundly affects one sixth of our economy...was written by people that understand less about healthcare and the insurance industry than you do and that he simply didn't understand what he was talking about?

It's hard to square THAT notion with the reality that this was something put together by people LIKE Gruber who have PhD's in that very subject. I'm sorry but this wasn't a "miscalculation" by progressives, Toxic...this was a very calculated plan to put something over on the American people because they felt that the "end" justified the "means".

Obama, in terms of involvement, and micro management of it's details...and the many many authors of Obamacare, were probably busy putting the legal touches on the legislation because that's what Obama knows. Obama does not understand the insurance business, or the healthcare business.

Granted, he may very well have seen into the future and lied. However...the things that Gruber talks about have nothing to do with what I talked about.

I don't question your intellect or reasoning skills. I do question your capacity to consider the possibility that these may be unintended consequences, of a law that we had to pass to find out what's in it.

With all due respect, Toxic...after watching him for six years, it's my impression that Obama knows about as much about crafting health care legislation as he does about economics...which is to say...very little! You posit that he was probably so busy "micromanaging" the legalities of the ACA that he didn't really understand the bill itself? That's an amusing concept since Barry has no history of writing successful legislation and has never demonstrated a work ethic that would have him pouring over the minutia of a 2000 plus page bill. Let's be honest here...he was the "big picture" guy who had the "vision" of government supported healthcare for all Americans...he was never the architect of how we would arrive at that.

My take on what happened is that President Obama wanted a single-payer healthcare system...was told he couldn't get the votes for that to pass Congress...and took what he could get before the GOP took over the House...which was a complete cluster fuck written behind closed doors by Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid and rammed through using the nuclear option.

The ACA itself was so bad that Democrats knew they would never get the public to go along with it unless they lied about what it would mean. So they did...repeatedly...and about major provisions in the bill.

The idea that Obama knows nothing about crafting health care legislation, and knowing enough to orchestrate palusible lies about it, seems a contradiction.

Your "take" is confirmation of my doubt that you'll consider the objective evidence fairly.

Your failure to recognize that Obama doesn't have to have played any role in crafting the legislation to lie about it is taken as confirmation that you will support anything he does no matter what it is. Not very objective.

 

[toxicmedia]

There are several aspects that get overlooked, and boiled down into talking points that create fasle and misleading impressions.

Obama screwed up when he prmised you'd get to keep your plan. He didn't stop to think that the 10 essential benefits that must be offered with health insurance policies would increase the cost, which causes, from an operational perspective, the insurance companies to add those benefits to existing plans, thus creating a new group ID# for those plans, which makes them NOT the same plan.

Not being able to keep thier doctors is 100% on the providers, and not the ACA. He didn't stop to think that providers would chose NOT to contract with the ACA plans, especially the HMO's. But there has to be more to it. Providers that accept Medicare aleady settle for around 75% reimbursement, and Medicaid about 25%!...the ACA plans run about 80%. I know of many doctors in the very red state I work with, won't take the ACA plans for political reasons. Many of the residents of this state, hate HMO's, and will only get PPO's. With the ACA PPO plans, there is no shortage of providers because it's fee for service, not capitation.

These HMO VS PPO contracting issues pre-date the ACA.

Whats happening is, by simplification, the GOP has been able to blame every new, systemic, and preexisting cost driver for medical insurance out of pocket costs on the ACA.

What you can't parse, and comprehend, without 1-2 years of training and education in how the industry works...is how much of these cost increases would still be there anyway without the ACA

Kindly explain to me how it is that Barack Obama didn't grasp the same things that you claim are so self evident if you know anything about healthcare insurance? Are you telling me that his signature legislative achievement...something that profoundly affects one sixth of our economy...was written by people that understand less about healthcare and the insurance industry than you do and that he simply didn't understand what he was talking about?

It's hard to square THAT notion with the reality that this was something put together by people LIKE Gruber who have PhD's in that very subject. I'm sorry but this wasn't a "miscalculation" by progressives, Toxic...this was a very calculated plan to put something over on the American people because they felt that the "end" justified the "means".

Obama, in terms of involvement, and micro management of it's details...and the many many authors of Obamacare, were probably busy putting the legal touches on the legislation because that's what Obama knows. Obama does not understand the insurance business, or the healthcare business.

Granted, he may very well have seen into the future and lied. However...the things that Gruber talks about have nothing to do with what I talked about.

I don't question your intellect or reasoning skills. I do question your capacity to consider the possibility that these may be unintended consequences, of a law that we had to pass to find out what's in it.

With all due respect, Toxic...after watching him for six years, it's my impression that Obama knows about as much about crafting health care legislation as he does about economics...which is to say...very little! You posit that he was probably so busy "micromanaging" the legalities of the ACA that he didn't really understand the bill itself? That's an amusing concept since Barry has no history of writing successful legislation and has never demonstrated a work ethic that would have him pouring over the minutia of a 2000 plus page bill. Let's be honest here...he was the "big picture" guy who had the "vision" of government supported healthcare for all Americans...he was never the architect of how we would arrive at that.

My take on what happened is that President Obama wanted a single-payer healthcare system...was told he couldn't get the votes for that to pass Congress...and took what he could get before the GOP took over the House...which was a complete cluster fuck written behind closed doors by Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid and rammed through using the nuclear option.

The ACA itself was so bad that Democrats knew they would never get the public to go along with it unless they lied about what it would mean. So they did...repeatedly...and about major provisions in the bill.

The idea that Obama knows nothing about crafting health care legislation, and knowing enough to orchestrate palusible lies about it, seems a contradiction.

Your "take" is confirmation of my doubt that you'll consider the objective evidence fairly.

Your failure to recognize that Obama doesn't have to have played any role in crafting the legislation to lie about it is taken as confirmation that you will support anything he does no matter what it is. Not very objective.

That doesn't make any sense. Read what you wrote again, out loud

 

[Conservative65]

As for Obama keeping a black book on conservatives he's going to "get"? He's
Barack Obama RAN on promises that Americans would be able to keep their health care plans if they liked them...keep their doctors if they liked them...and if you were a Middle Class family...that the ACA would save you about $2,500 a year in healthcare costs. All of those things were lies...lies deliberately told by Barack Obama and progressives to convince Americans who desperately wanted healthcare reform that the ACA would lower their healthcare costs. The Gruber videos simply exposed that Obama and his minions didn't guess wrong on what the ACA would mean to the average American. Oh, no...Gruber's videos show that they knew EXACTLY what would happen to the healthcare costs of the average Middle Class American and lied their asses off about it because they wanted to take that first step towards government run healthcare.

You have the gall to accuse me of lying when all I've done is point out the lies told by the people you support? If I hadn't seen how clueless you are about most things to do with the ACA, I'd accuse you of being as dishonest as Barry and his little buddies like Gruber. I'm coming to the conclusion however that you're the exact person that Gruber is referring to when he talks about the stupidity of the American voter.

There are several aspects that get overlooked, and boiled down into talking points that create fasle and misleading impressions.

Obama screwed up when he prmised you'd get to keep your plan. He didn't stop to think that the 10 essential benefits that must be offered with health insurance policies would increase the cost, which causes, from an operational perspective, the insurance companies to add those benefits to existing plans, thus creating a new group ID# for those plans, which makes them NOT the same plan.

Not being able to keep thier doctors is 100% on the providers, and not the ACA. He didn't stop to think that providers would chose NOT to contract with the ACA plans, especially the HMO's. But there has to be more to it. Providers that accept Medicare aleady settle for around 75% reimbursement, and Medicaid about 25%!...the ACA plans run about 80%. I know of many doctors in the very red state I work with, won't take the ACA plans for political reasons. Many of the residents of this state, hate HMO's, and will only get PPO's. With the ACA PPO plans, there is no shortage of providers because it's fee for service, not capitation.

These HMO VS PPO contracting issues pre-date the ACA.

Whats happening is, by simplification, the GOP has been able to blame every new, systemic, and preexisting cost driver for medical insurance out of pocket costs on the ACA.

What you can't parse, and comprehend, without 1-2 years of training and education in how the industry works...is how much of these cost increases would still be there anyway without the ACA

Kindly explain to me how it is that Barack Obama didn't grasp the same things that you claim are so self evident if you know anything about healthcare insurance? Are you telling me that his signature legislative achievement...something that profoundly affects one sixth of our economy...was written by people that understand less about healthcare and the insurance industry than you do and that he simply didn't understand what he was talking about?

It's hard to square THAT notion with the reality that this was something put together by people LIKE Gruber who have PhD's in that very subject. I'm sorry but this wasn't a "miscalculation" by progressives, Toxic...this was a very calculated plan to put something over on the American people because they felt that the "end" justified the "means".

Obama, in terms of involvement, and micro management of it's details...and the many many authors of Obamacare, were probably busy putting the legal touches on the legislation because that's what Obama knows. Obama does not understand the insurance business, or the healthcare business.

Granted, he may very well have seen into the future and lied. However...the things that Gruber talks about have nothing to do with what I talked about.

I don't question your intellect or reasoning skills. I do question your capacity to consider the possibility that these may be unintended consequences, of a law that we had to pass to find out what's in it.

It doesn't/didn't take a rocket surgeon to understand the unvarnished greed of the health care system corporations.

It is astonishing that still after the debate over health care that the neo cons STILL believe heath care only belongs to the wealthy.

That's your problem. You think because bleeding hearts made claims that healthcare is something one person owes to another that the rest of us should simply accept it. Healthcare doesn't belong only to the wealthy. That doesn't mean someone that is wealthy should be forced to fund it for someone else. If you think healthcare is what someone that can't afford it should have, you are more than welcome to find all those that can't then pay their premiums with your money. What you aren't welcome to do is use mine.

 

[Conservative65]

Kindly explain to me how it is that Barack Obama didn't grasp the same things that you claim are so self evident if you know anything about healthcare insurance? Are you telling me that his signature legislative achievement...something that profoundly affects one sixth of our economy...was written by people that understand less about healthcare and the insurance industry than you do and that he simply didn't understand what he was talking about?

It's hard to square THAT notion with the reality that this was something put together by people LIKE Gruber who have PhD's in that very subject. I'm sorry but this wasn't a "miscalculation" by progressives, Toxic...this was a very calculated plan to put something over on the American people because they felt that the "end" justified the "means".

Obama, in terms of involvement, and micro management of it's details...and the many many authors of Obamacare, were probably busy putting the legal touches on the legislation because that's what Obama knows. Obama does not understand the insurance business, or the healthcare business.

Granted, he may very well have seen into the future and lied. However...the things that Gruber talks about have nothing to do with what I talked about.

I don't question your intellect or reasoning skills. I do question your capacity to consider the possibility that these may be unintended consequences, of a law that we had to pass to find out what's in it.

With all due respect, Toxic...after watching him for six years, it's my impression that Obama knows about as much about crafting health care legislation as he does about economics...which is to say...very little! You posit that he was probably so busy "micromanaging" the legalities of the ACA that he didn't really understand the bill itself? That's an amusing concept since Barry has no history of writing successful legislation and has never demonstrated a work ethic that would have him pouring over the minutia of a 2000 plus page bill. Let's be honest here...he was the "big picture" guy who had the "vision" of government supported healthcare for all Americans...he was never the architect of how we would arrive at that.

My take on what happened is that President Obama wanted a single-payer healthcare system...was told he couldn't get the votes for that to pass Congress...and took what he could get before the GOP took over the House...which was a complete cluster fuck written behind closed doors by Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid and rammed through using the nuclear option.

The ACA itself was so bad that Democrats knew they would never get the public to go along with it unless they lied about what it would mean. So they did...repeatedly...and about major provisions in the bill.

The idea that Obama knows nothing about crafting health care legislation, and knowing enough to orchestrate palusible lies about it, seems a contradiction.

Your "take" is confirmation of my doubt that you'll consider the objective evidence fairly.

Your failure to recognize that Obama doesn't have to have played any role in crafting the legislation to lie about it is taken as confirmation that you will support anything he does no matter what it is. Not very objective.

That doesn't make any sense. Read what you wrote again, out loud

Your statement of "The idea that Obama knows nothing about crafting health care legislation, and knowing enough to orchestrate palusible lies about it, seems a contradiction" makes no sense. What you are saying that only the person crafting legislation can lie about it. Obama didn't have to craft a word in it to lie about what's in it.

 

[Dot Com]

True. Repub party used to have an intellectual base. No more. Just a bunch of education-hating, reactionary, low-info, drones

 

[Dot Com]

God, am I wasting my time?....the people who were called Blue Dog Democrats were replaced by Republicans!....not extremist Democrats.

Oldstyle will wear you down w/ page upon page of 2-sentence replies. Be forewarned.

 

[toxicmedia]

Obama, in terms of involvement, and micro management of it's details...and the many many authors of Obamacare, were probably busy putting the legal touches on the legislation because that's what Obama knows. Obama does not understand the insurance business, or the healthcare business.

Granted, he may very well have seen into the future and lied. However...the things that Gruber talks about have nothing to do with what I talked about.

I don't question your intellect or reasoning skills. I do question your capacity to consider the possibility that these may be unintended consequences, of a law that we had to pass to find out what's in it.

With all due respect, Toxic...after watching him for six years, it's my impression that Obama knows about as much about crafting health care legislation as he does about economics...which is to say...very little! You posit that he was probably so busy "micromanaging" the legalities of the ACA that he didn't really understand the bill itself? That's an amusing concept since Barry has no history of writing successful legislation and has never demonstrated a work ethic that would have him pouring over the minutia of a 2000 plus page bill. Let's be honest here...he was the "big picture" guy who had the "vision" of government supported healthcare for all Americans...he was never the architect of how we would arrive at that.

My take on what happened is that President Obama wanted a single-payer healthcare system...was told he couldn't get the votes for that to pass Congress...and took what he could get before the GOP took over the House...which was a complete cluster fuck written behind closed doors by Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid and rammed through using the nuclear option.

The ACA itself was so bad that Democrats knew they would never get the public to go along with it unless they lied about what it would mean. So they did...repeatedly...and about major provisions in the bill.

The idea that Obama knows nothing about crafting health care legislation, and knowing enough to orchestrate palusible lies about it, seems a contradiction.

Your "take" is confirmation of my doubt that you'll consider the objective evidence fairly.

Your failure to recognize that Obama doesn't have to have played any role in crafting the legislation to lie about it is taken as confirmation that you will support anything he does no matter what it is. Not very objective.

That doesn't make any sense. Read what you wrote again, out loud

Your statement of "The idea that Obama knows nothing about crafting health care legislation, and knowing enough to orchestrate palusible lies about it, seems a contradiction" makes no sense. What you are saying that only the person crafting legislation can lie about it. Obama didn't have to craft a word in it to lie about what's in it.

I don't know what lies are like where you come from...

But where I come from, you have to know what the truth is before you can lie about it.

 

[Conservative65]

With all due respect, Toxic...after watching him for six years, it's my impression that Obama knows about as much about crafting health care legislation as he does about economics...which is to say...very little! You posit that he was probably so busy "micromanaging" the legalities of the ACA that he didn't really understand the bill itself? That's an amusing concept since Barry has no history of writing successful legislation and has never demonstrated a work ethic that would have him pouring over the minutia of a 2000 plus page bill. Let's be honest here...he was the "big picture" guy who had the "vision" of government supported healthcare for all Americans...he was never the architect of how we would arrive at that.

My take on what happened is that President Obama wanted a single-payer healthcare system...was told he couldn't get the votes for that to pass Congress...and took what he could get before the GOP took over the House...which was a complete cluster fuck written behind closed doors by Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid and rammed through using the nuclear option.

The ACA itself was so bad that Democrats knew they would never get the public to go along with it unless they lied about what it would mean. So they did...repeatedly...and about major provisions in the bill.

The idea that Obama knows nothing about crafting health care legislation, and knowing enough to orchestrate palusible lies about it, seems a contradiction.

Your "take" is confirmation of my doubt that you'll consider the objective evidence fairly.

Your failure to recognize that Obama doesn't have to have played any role in crafting the legislation to lie about it is taken as confirmation that you will support anything he does no matter what it is. Not very objective.

That doesn't make any sense. Read what you wrote again, out loud

Your statement of "The idea that Obama knows nothing about crafting health care legislation, and knowing enough to orchestrate palusible lies about it, seems a contradiction" makes no sense. What you are saying that only the person crafting legislation can lie about it. Obama didn't have to craft a word in it to lie about what's in it.

I don't know what lies are like where you come from...

But where I come from, you have to know what the truth is before you can lie about it.

Not necessarily. All you have to do is believe it is the truth. If you tell me something that is false but I accept it as the truth because I want to believe it's true, you're a friend and I trust you, etc. yet I don't verify it first, if I tell it as you told it to me, I am telling a lie.

 

[Oldstyle]

God, am I wasting my time?....the people who were called Blue Dog Democrats were replaced by Republicans!....not extremist Democrats.

Oldstyle will wear you down w/ page upon page of 2-sentence replies. Be forewarned.

Gee, Dottie...did I wear you down? I'm sorry little buddy! llegitimi non carborundum!!!

 

[Oldstyle]

As for Obama keeping a black book on conservatives he's going to "get"? He's
Barack Obama RAN on promises that Americans would be able to keep their health care plans if they liked them...keep their doctors if they liked them...and if you were a Middle Class family...that the ACA would save you about $2,500 a year in healthcare costs. All of those things were lies...lies deliberately told by Barack Obama and progressives to convince Americans who desperately wanted healthcare reform that the ACA would lower their healthcare costs. The Gruber videos simply exposed that Obama and his minions didn't guess wrong on what the ACA would mean to the average American. Oh, no...Gruber's videos show that they knew EXACTLY what would happen to the healthcare costs of the average Middle Class American and lied their asses off about it because they wanted to take that first step towards government run healthcare.

You have the gall to accuse me of lying when all I've done is point out the lies told by the people you support? If I hadn't seen how clueless you are about most things to do with the ACA, I'd accuse you of being as dishonest as Barry and his little buddies like Gruber. I'm coming to the conclusion however that you're the exact person that Gruber is referring to when he talks about the stupidity of the American voter.

There are several aspects that get overlooked, and boiled down into talking points that create fasle and misleading impressions.

Obama screwed up when he prmised you'd get to keep your plan. He didn't stop to think that the 10 essential benefits that must be offered with health insurance policies would increase the cost, which causes, from an operational perspective, the insurance companies to add those benefits to existing plans, thus creating a new group ID# for those plans, which makes them NOT the same plan.

Not being able to keep thier doctors is 100% on the providers, and not the ACA. He didn't stop to think that providers would chose NOT to contract with the ACA plans, especially the HMO's. But there has to be more to it. Providers that accept Medicare aleady settle for around 75% reimbursement, and Medicaid about 25%!...the ACA plans run about 80%. I know of many doctors in the very red state I work with, won't take the ACA plans for political reasons. Many of the residents of this state, hate HMO's, and will only get PPO's. With the ACA PPO plans, there is no shortage of providers because it's fee for service, not capitation.

These HMO VS PPO contracting issues pre-date the ACA.

Whats happening is, by simplification, the GOP has been able to blame every new, systemic, and preexisting cost driver for medical insurance out of pocket costs on the ACA.

What you can't parse, and comprehend, without 1-2 years of training and education in how the industry works...is how much of these cost increases would still be there anyway without the ACA

Kindly explain to me how it is that Barack Obama didn't grasp the same things that you claim are so self evident if you know anything about healthcare insurance? Are you telling me that his signature legislative achievement...something that profoundly affects one sixth of our economy...was written by people that understand less about healthcare and the insurance industry than you do and that he simply didn't understand what he was talking about?

It's hard to square THAT notion with the reality that this was something put together by people LIKE Gruber who have PhD's in that very subject. I'm sorry but this wasn't a "miscalculation" by progressives, Toxic...this was a very calculated plan to put something over on the American people because they felt that the "end" justified the "means".

Obama, in terms of involvement, and micro management of it's details...and the many many authors of Obamacare, were probably busy putting the legal touches on the legislation because that's what Obama knows. Obama does not understand the insurance business, or the healthcare business.

Granted, he may very well have seen into the future and lied. However...the things that Gruber talks about have nothing to do with what I talked about.

I don't question your intellect or reasoning skills. I do question your capacity to consider the possibility that these may be unintended consequences, of a law that we had to pass to find out what's in it.

With all due respect, Toxic...after watching him for six years, it's my impression that Obama knows about as much about crafting health care legislation as he does about economics...which is to say...very little! You posit that he was probably so busy "micromanaging" the legalities of the ACA that he didn't really understand the bill itself? That's an amusing concept since Barry has no history of writing successful legislation and has never demonstrated a work ethic that would have him pouring over the minutia of a 2000 plus page bill. Let's be honest here...he was the "big picture" guy who had the "vision" of government supported healthcare for all Americans...he was never the architect of how we would arrive at that.

My take on what happened is that President Obama wanted a single-payer healthcare system...was told he couldn't get the votes for that to pass Congress...and took what he could get before the GOP took over the House...which was a complete cluster fuck written behind closed doors by Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid and rammed through using the nuclear option.

The ACA itself was so bad that Democrats knew they would never get the public to go along with it unless they lied about what it would mean. So they did...repeatedly...and about major provisions in the bill.

The idea that Obama knows nothing about crafting health care legislation, and knowing enough to orchestrate palusible lies about it, seems a contradiction.

Your "take" is confirmation of my doubt that you'll consider the objective evidence fairly.

It's not a contradiction at all, Toxic. Barack Obama has never been a legislator. If you go back and look at his history he was absolutely pathetic at getting anything he wrote passed as law when he was in the Illinois Senate. It wasn't until Emile Jones decide to groom him for a run as a US Senator by feeding him other Democrat's bills to sign onto as a "co-sponsor" that he got a single piece of legislation passed. The same scenario took place once Barry became a US Senator...he was repeatedly allowed to sign on as a "co-sponsor" of other Democrat's work because he was seen as a rising "star" in the Party after giving that speech at the Democratic National Convention. I'd be shocked if Barack Obama had anything at all to do with the actual writing of the ACA. Crafting legislation is hard work and that's NEVER been his thing.

As for how much you need to know about something to tell lies about it? You should know from coming here on a regular basis that some of the most ignorant people on this site tell the biggest whoppers.

 

[Oldstyle]

Sorry...I forgot that I'm the two line KING of this board!

 

[HUGGY]

These guys would be drummed out of the GOP is they said things like this today.

People like this say all sorts of things and the Democrat party holds them to the highest standards:

“I’ll have those ******* voting Democratic for the next 200 years.” - Lyndon Baines Johnson about the Great Society plan.
"You cannot go to a 7-11 or Dunkin Donuts unless you have a slight Indian Accent." -Senator Joe Biden
"You'd find these potentates from down in Africa, you know, rather than eating each other, they'd just come up and get a good square meal in Geneva." -- Fritz Hollings (D, S.C.)
"You f*cking Jew b@stard." -- Hillary Clinton to political operative Paul Fray. This was revealed in "State of a Union: Inside the Complex Marriage of Bill and Hillary Clinton" and has been verified by Paul Fray and three witnesses.

There are plenty more if you're willing to read them.

Thank you...Clinton's stock just went up in my book. The fyucking Jew Bastards have been medling in our country and it's foreign affairs for far too long. If she got elected and all she did was kick Israel to the curb she would have done more for this country than the last 8 presidents all put together.

So you're another one that will vote for her because she has a vagina. Got it.

What an ignorant statement. No ..I will probably not vote. I just don't see the republican party doing anything responsible and Clinton's reported statement that indicated we need to divorce ourselves from alignments with Israel has merit.

"No . . . I will probably not vote"

Since you won't, thinking that any opinion you have has any credibility proves you're stupid. If you aren't going to make the effort to vote, STFU about what you think the government should or should not do.

You simply hate Israel. At least be honest.

Of course I hate Israel but not so simply as you suggest. Tell your lies to the offspring and the offsprings of those that were murdered by the Jews on the Ship Liberty. There are thousands of reasons as an American to be disgusted with Israel and Jews. The meddling in our foreign affairs and politics.. I'm sorry that I am not conveniently ignorant of your crimes. That will never change. You are wasting your energy with me.