Things I do not like about modern day Star Trek

[Harry Dresden]

Look, I don't know what your problem is but it is EXACTLY true. No one ever claimed Roddenberry didn't do it all himself locked in a closet, no one does that, it is a stupid infantile argument. For the first time in the annals of TV, Roddenberry took experts in related fields and consulted them on various ideas and concepts looking to make ST believable and "real." What is so damned hard to understand about that? So instead of a cigar shape with a rocket engine spewing sparks on back and a few windows on the side, we got the Enterprise driven by anti-matter. Instead of missions to planet Lorax 7 in the Gummybear galaxy, we got missions to Altair 6. Warp speed was defined and quantized. Roddenberry was actually an LA cop turned writer, director and producer and unlike Lost In Space (which CBS turned down Star Trek for), we didn't get a wobbly Jupiter 2 saucer with about 4X the interior space as outdoor volume getting lost and finding 15 other planets and dozens of other star systems just trying to get to the NEAREST one, and getting forever lost at that, Gene tapped the best minds and talents he could find to help him flesh out the details of Star Trek as scientifically credible as was possible, with HIM as the director, coach, coordinator and final arbiter of what he wanted and which became Star Trek.

Jeffries didn't design the Enterprise, he produced HUNDREDS of drawings which Gene went through and slowly took a bit of this one or that he liked, going back to the drawing-board again and again until they got closer and closer to the look and design that Roddenberry was searching for in his guts, and when he finally saw what he was looking for, he knew it. Where Jeffries really sailed, was on much of the interior set designs where he came up with the bridge layout, so good that the Navy borrowed the idea and built some ship control layouts based on a similar concept, just as medical experts demanded to know where he got the idea for the medical bed scanners, as they were working along the same ideas. And the Enterprise design continued to evolve and be fleshed out further in smaller details through the 3rd season as budgets allowed. There had been thought to making the back of the engines do a little optical effect as the front but they simply ran out of money.

What next? You gonna claim Elon Musk is a fraud who didn't really design Tesla EVs just because he hires others to do most of the work? Is their any doubt there would be no Tesla or Space X today without Musk? Likewise, there would be NO Star Trek without Roddenberry who fought tooth and nail against intransigent studios and network execs to get it hammered through at a time when TV studios wanted to produce TV shows on the same budget as 'Laugh In.' Coon was without a doubt a stupendous asset and contributor to the Star Trek world, but it is a world that NEVER WOULD HAVE EXISTED in the first place to be built upon without Gene Roddenberry. Make no mistake about that.

And Gene was not happy with some of the additions Coon made to it, but then, Coon was the Producer and Gene was off trying to develop other ideas (like The Questar Tapes). But then, Harlan Elison was FURIOUS over changes to his script to make 'City On Edge of Forever' fully Star Trekized, and while a fantastic story, in his original form, it just wasn't Star Trek. Gene, Fontana and others took Ellison's basic story and made it into the best episode of all time.

Gene was even against the 'Family' episode of TNG where Picard goes home to France after the Borg. I can see why--- I hated the episode too, but have warmed to it a bit after a fashion. But in the final analysis, Everything Star Trek began and ended with Gene Roddenberry, at least until the 2nd season when much creative control was turned over to Coon, and by the Third Season, none of it, where by then, Gene had lost all interest in the show and divorced himself from it, fed up with and exhausted fighting the networks who never stopped trying to kill it off.

whatever you say toob....you are the resident star trek expert....

 

[Dayton3]

The Cage WAS Star Trek. If you don't like that then you never really loved Star Trek. It was abandoned only because the network idiots didn't understand it and thought it too cerebral and over the heads of the unwashed public. And since Roddenberry was involved in the writing of most of the episodes even when not getting screen credit, that just goes to further show that you're not really a Star Trek fan.

And you obviously never watched The Questar Tapes, a pilot that should have sold but didn't, which was pretty much a joint collaboration between Gene Roddenberry and Gene Coon.


Because he is the reference standard by which all things Star Trek are measured. His influence was gone pretty much after about the 3rd or 4th season of TNG and all things since and it shows. Star Trek now is just like any other space adventure with space ships and aliens, it just now seldom carries the brilliance and vision which he intended for it, and is now carried manly by incredible CGI special effects like most everything else put out by Hollywood today.

You vastly overstate just how good the stuff Roddenberry had a role in creating actually was.

 

[toobfreak]

You vastly overstate just how good the stuff Roddenberry had a role in creating actually was.

Really? How?

Roddenberry created:

1. The first Scientifically-plausible science fiction.
2. Feasible faster than light travel.
3. Multiracial and multi-species crews at a time when civil rights was still being hammered out.
4. A whole universe of new supporting technologies.
5. A vehicle by which we could more closely examine social issues here on Earth that were taboo at the time.

Roddenberry wrote, co-wrote, rewrote, or contributed to most every episode of the first two seasons and a few of the third, plus outright writing:

1. The Cage
2. Charlie X
3. Mudd's Women
4. The Menagerie
5. Return of the Archons
6. A Private Little War
7. The Omega Glory
8. Bread and Circuses
9. Assignment Earth
10. The Savage Curtain
11. Turnabout Intruder

While also producing the show, battling with networks, and fighting cancellation. Remember, Roddenberry wasn't out to create good space opera; that would have just been a clone of Star Wars. He was out to make people THINK, consciously or otherwise about things most of us took for granted as it pertained to things like human value, freedom, equality, war, social role reversals, history, morality and sexuality.

Some people here sound like they are just sci-fi junkies who want cool ships, space battles, neat aliens and weird stories.

 

[Dayton3]

Some people here sound like they are just sci-fi junkies who want cool ships, space battles, neat aliens and weird stories.

What's wrong with that?

 

[Dayton3]

Really? How?

Roddenberry created:

1. The first Scientifically-plausible science fiction.
2. Feasible faster than light travel.
3. Multiracial and multi-species crews at a time when civil rights was still being hammered out.
4. A whole universe of new supporting technologies.
5. A vehicle by which we could more closely examine social issues here on Earth that were taboo at the time.

Roddenberry wrote, co-wrote, rewrote, or contributed to most every episode of the first two seasons and a few of the third, plus outright writing:

1. The Cage
2. Charlie X
3. Mudd's Women
4. The Menagerie
5. Return of the Archons
6. A Private Little War
7. The Omega Glory
8. Bread and Circuses
9. Assignment Earth
10. The Savage Curtain
11. Turnabout Intruder

While also producing the show, battling with networks, and fighting cancellation. Remember, Roddenberry wasn't out to create good space opera; that would have just been a clone of Star Wars. He was out to make people THINK, consciously or otherwise about things most of us took for granted as it pertained to things like human value, freedom, equality, war, social role reversals, history, morality and sexuality.

Some people here sound like they are just sci-fi junkies who want cool ships, space battles, neat aliens and weird stories.

Roddenberry wrote, co-wrote, rewrote, or contributed to most every episode of the first two seasons and a few of the third, plus outright writing:

1. The Cage
2. Charlie X
3. Mudd's Women
4. The Menagerie
5. Return of the Archons
6. A Private Little War
7. The Omega Glory
8. Bread and Circuses
9. Assignment Earth
10. The Savage Curtain
11. Turnabout Intruder

Most of those were poor or average at best.

 

[toobfreak]

What's wrong with that?

Nothing! I love sci-fi. Just that I don't want to confuse general science fiction with Star Trek, which was a separate genre and both a subset of sci-fi as well as a major founding force multiplier in driving much/most/all of the big budget sci fi industry today by showing them that not only was the audience there, but so was the MONEY to be made to make investors interested.

But since the OP of this thread was about things people don't like about modern Star Trek, the implication is because they liked original Trek better! Yet the FB I'm getting from some people here is just the OPPOSITE. Modern Star Trek keeps moving closer and closer to just being one more sci-fi story except they have ships loosely modeled on the Enterprise and throw around terms like Federation, Star Fleet, Spock and pointy ears.

 

[toobfreak]

1. The Cage
2. Charlie X
3. Mudd's Women
4. The Menagerie
5. Return of the Archons
6. A Private Little War
7. The Omega Glory
8. Bread and Circuses
9. Assignment Earth
10. The Savage Curtain
11. Turnabout Intruder

Most of those were poor or average at best.

Really?

The Cage was the defacto standard from which all of Star Trek was based.

Charlie X was super.

Mudd's Women was very good.

The Menagerie was one of the best regular season episodes with some of my favorite scenes on Star Base.

The Archons is one of my favorite 1st season episodes.

Private Little War is one of the better 2nd season ones.

The Omega Glory was a little weak and lacking in action but was used as the third leftover from Gene's original three scripts to sell to the network and towards the end of the 2nd season, they were needing scripts.

Bread and Circuses was OK. It had the interesting twist of leading you to think they were sun worshipers when it was really the emergence of Christianity.

Assignment Earth was actually a pilot for a new TV show like The Questar Tapes that should have sold but didn't due to itinerant network stupidity--- Probably because Roddenberry had earned a reputation of being "difficult" to work with.

Savage Curtain and Turnabout Intruder were throwaways written quickly to finish the shooting budget as everyone knew the show was to be cancelled, not that Intruder didn't have its moments like when they replayed the tape of Scotty in the hall talking about taking over the ship.

 

[Dayton3]

I'll clarify as to what of the original Star Trek I liked most:

1) The Doomsday Machine
2) Arena
3) Errand of Mercy
4) Balance of Terror
5) The Ultimate Computer
6) Space Seed
7) The Tholian Web
8) The Enterprise Incident
9) Obsession
10) Journey to Babel

 

[toobfreak]

I'll clarify as to what of the original Star Trek I liked most:

1) The Doomsday Machine
2) Arena
3) Errand of Mercy
4) Balance of Terror
5) The Ultimate Computer
6) Space Seed
7) The Tholian Web
8) The Enterprise Incident
9) Obsession
10) Journey to Babel

No bad choices there, though I'm a little surprised to see Tholian Web and Enterprise Incident on the list.

• Doomsday was a favorite of mine since a kid for obvious reasons: it was that rare, all-out space battle with a V'Ger Class solar system-destroying mindless space weapon! Who can forget Scotty hanging on for dear life as Kirk kicks the Constellation drive into operation! Made even better on Blu Ray with far improved outside scenes.
• Arena was good. Best part was the Metrons who were a super-race trying to deal with primitives from the Federation.
• Mercy was apocryphal. It starts with one of best space battle scenes on the bridge then introduced the Klingons (and the best Klingon of the series played by John Colicos) and ends with the annoying Organians turning out to be non-corporeal life millions of years ahead of us!
• Balance had a few weak elements in the script but it was only the 9th episode so . . . .
• Ultimate Computer was always one of my favorites for its multitronics and M-5 computer with a mind all its own, though it was a little weak how it went off on a killing spree to defend itself when no one was attacking it.
• Montalban MADE Space Seed great.
• The Enterprise Incident forced them to give Romulans Klingon design ships since someone thoughtlessly THREW OUT the original 3-foot model of a Romulan ship built by Richard Dakin. Imagine what THAT thing would be worth to a collector today!
• Obsession was another GREAT episode. A few weak links in the story line quickly forgotten by Kirk's obsessive performance and McCoy and Spock's concerns, especially when he orders the ship to Warp 8 (emergency warp right at the limits of the ship meant only for very brief periods) and Scotty finally turns to him in anguish and exclaims: "Captain! We cannot do it!! If we keep this speed up, the ship is going to blow up any second now!!!" Yeah.
• And Babel, had it all rolled into one, from meeting Spock's parents to finding out he's an Ambassador, to the strife between him and his mother and so much more to finally McCoy getting the last word! (This was when they added a third bed to sickbay so Kirk would have a place to lay).

Still, none of these would make my top 8 list of most favored episodes because I'm more attracted to good writing, great acting and superb dramatic tension (an element of good writing) than just pure action as action is the easiest and most common writing formula. If I had to choose, my top 8 episodes would be:

1. The Cage
2. City On The Edge of Forever
3. Where No Man Has Gone Before (in its complete, unaired form with Gary Lockwood running around the halls chasing skirts gawking at female crew members)
4. The Menagerie
5. The Return of the Archons
6. Court Martial
7. This Side of Paradise
8. The Alternative Factor (pretty good considering that Lazarus was supposed to be played by John Barrymore who stiffed Desilu and didn't show up ending in his getting blackballed by Hollywood for years and the network and show hated the story, but, oh, what a concept of the two opposite universes meeting, near total annihilation, and had to be sealed by forever entombing the two Lazarus's forever together at each others throats).

 

[Dayton3]

No bad choices there, though I'm a little surprised to see Tholian Web and Enterprise Incident on the list.

• Doomsday was a favorite of mine since a kid for obvious reasons: it was that rare, all-out space battle with a V'Ger Class solar system-destroying mindless space weapon! Who can forget Scotty hanging on for dear life as Kirk kicks the Constellation drive into operation! Made even better on Blu Ray with far improved outside scenes.
• Arena was good. Best part was the Metrons who were a super-race trying to deal with primitives from the Federation.
• Mercy was apocryphal. It starts with one of best space battle scenes on the bridge then introduced the Klingons (and the best Klingon of the series played by John Colicos) and ends with the annoying Organians turning out to be non-corporeal life millions of years ahead of us!
• Balance had a few weak elements in the script but it was only the 9th episode so . . . .
• Ultimate Computer was always one of my favorites for its multitronics and M-5 computer with a mind all its own, though it was a little weak how it went off on a killing spree to defend itself when no one was attacking it.
• Montalban MADE Space Seed great.
• The Enterprise Incident forced them to give Romulans Klingon design ships since someone thoughtlessly THREW OUT the original 3-foot model of a Romulan ship built by Richard Dakin. Imagine what THAT thing would be worth to a collector today!
• Obsession was another GREAT episode. A few weak links in the story line quickly forgotten by Kirk's obsessive performance and McCoy and Spock's concerns, especially when he orders the ship to Warp 8 (emergency warp right at the limits of the ship meant only for very brief periods) and Scotty finally turns to him in anguish and exclaims: "Captain! We cannot do it!! If we keep this speed up, the ship is going to blow up any second now!!!" Yeah.
• And Babel, had it all rolled into one, from meeting Spock's parents to finding out he's an Ambassador, to the strife between him and his mother and so much more to finally McCoy getting the last word! (This was when they added a third bed to sickbay so Kirk would have a place to lay).

Still, none of these would make my top 8 list of most favored episodes because I'm more attracted to good writing, great acting and superb dramatic tension (an element of good writing) than just pure action as action is the easiest and most common writing formula. If I had to choose, my top 8 episodes would be:

1. The Cage
2. City On The Edge of Forever
3. Where No Man Has Gone Before (in its complete, unaired form with Gary Lockwood running around the halls chasing skirts gawking at female crew members)
4. The Menagerie
5. The Return of the Archons
6. Court Martial
7. This Side of Paradise
8. The Alternative Factor (pretty good considering that Lazarus was supposed to be played by John Barrymore who stiffed Desilu and didn't show up ending in his getting blackballed by Hollywood for years and the network and show hated the story, but, oh, what a concept of the two opposite universes meeting, near total annihilation, and had to be sealed by forever entombing the two Lazarus's forever together at each others throats).

You've got to be kidding about The Alternative Factor. I consider it one of the worst Trek episodes ever for too many reasons to get into. Including a complete non understanding of the nature of anti matter.

 

[toobfreak]

You've got to be kidding about The Alternative Factor. I consider it one of the worst Trek episodes ever for too many reasons to get into. Including a complete non understanding of the nature of anti matter.

No, I love the story. Not sure what you mean about antimatter but the scenes on the bridge where Spock is trying to explain his observations of the planet below winking out into non-existence are like ambrosia to someone with a physics background. Such a shame so few get this episode so much so that even the network withheld it from episode #20 (shot the week after Arena) until right before the very end of the season hoping to slide it into a slot between Mercy and City of Forever where viewers wouldn't notice.

Another underrated episode is Court Martial where Kirk is on trial and we meet Areel Shaw, one of Kirk's best former girlfriends as Kirk's very ability to command the ship is brought into question.

I just love those early episodes when everything was new and they were feeling along the cracks scene by scene solving technical issues of story and script on a daily basis.

BTW, very few people know this but the woman Rose whom Kirk met on Shore Leave, THAT was the woman that Gary Mitchell mentioned outlining her entire campaign for that Kirk tells him he almost married!!!

 

[Dayton3]

No, I love the story. Not sure what you mean about antimatter

Antimatter is antimatter. It wouldn't require the antimatter Lazarus and "our" Lazarus to meet outside the "portal"

Any meeting of matter and antimatter would result in an explosion. Whether the antimatter Lazarus in our universe or Kirk in the antimatter universe.

 

[Dayton3]

BTW, very few people know this but the woman Rose whom Kirk met on Shore Leave, THAT was the woman that Gary Mitchell mentioned outlining her entire campaign for that Kirk tells him he almost married!!!

You mean "Ruth". But I do not remember it being ever confirmed that was the woman who Gary Mitchell mentioned. In one of the comic books the woman in question turned out to be Carol Marcus (mother of Kirk's son).

 

[toobfreak]

Antimatter is antimatter. It wouldn't require the antimatter Lazarus and "our" Lazarus to meet outside the "portal"

You're missing the point. This was 1967. No one knew what the heck anti-matter was. It was enough that one Lazarus was matter and the other antimatter, it was a whole lot of opposite stuff about to meet and annihilate both universes! That is, if they met outside of the magnetic corridor. Don't see, there is little action here; this is pure science fiction as it was intended to be, pure, brilliant imaginative story telling like the great SF stories of the 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s.

Any meeting of matter and antimatter would result in an explosion.

Right. Exactly. And the two Lazarus' were that meeting.

 

[toobfreak]

You mean "Ruth".

Yes, thank you, I knew Rose was wrong when I typed it but couldn't think why.

But I do not remember it being ever confirmed that was the woman who Gary Mitchell mentioned.

I got it from the most unimpeachable source imaginable.

In one of the comic books the woman in question turned out to be Carol Marcus (mother of Kirk's son).

No doubt dreamed up years after the fact when the movies had been made, forgetting all about the never explained love of Kirk's life, Ruth.

 

[Dayton3]

You're missing the point. This was 1967. No one knew what the heck anti-matter was. It was enough that one Lazarus was matter and the other antimatter, it was a whole lot of opposite stuff about to meet and annihilate both universes! That is, if they met outside of the magnetic corridor. Don't see, there is little action here; this is pure science fiction as it was intended to be, pure, brilliant imaginative story telling like the great SF stories of the 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s.
Right. Exactly. And the two Lazaruls' were that meeting.s onl

My point was that it didn't have to be the two Lazarus's. I could've been when Kirk appeared in the antimatter universe.

And I knew full well the nature of antimatter in the mid 1970s when I was only eight years old.

 

[toobfreak]

My point was that it didn't have to be the two Lazarus's.

But it was. The point of the story was the personal conflict between the psychology of the two Lazarus', and the antimatter was just the vehicle for telling the story.

I could've been when Kirk appeared in the antimatter universe.

Well, sure, but we are not dealing with a scientific thought experiment, this was a 1960s TV show. The audience had to RELATE to the characters for the tension to be real. For the purpose of the storytelling, Kirk would have had to meet anti-Kirk for them to annihilate as like particles. That was the vehicle for telling the story.

And I knew full well the nature of antimatter in the mid 1970s when I was only eight years old.

So did I. In the mid-70s, I was speculating on the nature and true role of black holes in the universe, and it turns out I was probably right 30 years before the broader scientific community at large but, that's neither here nor there. This was a 1967 TV show about the future of space. You are way over-thinking the topic.

 

[Dayton3]

I had always wondered exactly what pushed the M-5 computer over the edge in "The Ultimate Computer". Sure it had the brain patters of Dr. Richard Daystrom copied into it and Daystrom turned out to be borderline psyotic but the computer function well initially and then it went completely around the bend.

My opinion, it was the "unscheduled war games" followed by the chance encounter with the ore freighter (which was the first instance of the M-5 using lethal force.

In my opinion, the M-5 was already operating on a razor thin edge of sanity when the unscheduled wargames followed by the encounter with the ore freighter convinced the computer that the entire universe was conspiring against it

 

[toobfreak]

I had always wondered exactly what pushed the M-5 computer over the edge in "The Ultimate Computer". Sure it had the brain patters of Dr. Richard Daystrom copied into it and Daystrom turned out to be borderline psyotic but the computer function well initially and then it went completely around the bend.

My opinion, it was the "unscheduled war games" followed by the chance encounter with the ore freighter (which was the first instance of the M-5 using lethal force.

In my opinion, the M-5 was already operating on a razor thin edge of sanity when the unscheduled wargames followed by the encounter with the ore freighter convinced the computer that the entire universe was conspiring against it

It was a very weak point in an otherwise good story. It was fine that it emerged that the M-5 harbored feelings of persecution and theft, but Daystrom never vented his feelings in actual anger and violence in his life so the M-5 should have likewise had similar control over its feelings since it was a mirror of his mind. The Ore freighter was just cruising along minding its business and should not have triggered anything, the story lacked a missing element to explain and justify its going on attack, and the computer SHOULD have been reachable by the tie in that it could have been reasoned with more at least hearing its rationale other than the lame excuse of "they attacked this ship." I mean, any computer capable of thinking and making decisions running a starship surely could understand the idea of war games, especially as during its development, it must have had to undergo many rigorous similar tests to prove its viability!

But it was only a 1960s TV show and considering everything, hard to be too critical. Myself, I wish they would have made the story a 2-parter.

 

[toobfreak]

Just wanted to say thanks to all you guys who were so surprised by my choices for episodes! I had a little time earlier and so I pursued a thought I have had a couple years now and dug out my Blu Ray of Star Trek again and for only the 2nd time in many years found and watched the complete, original pilot for Star Trek The Cage again as it had been seen by the network! Before it, there was no Star Trek. No Enterprise or anything. Everything was formative, scene by scene as they felt along the cracks creating a new universe of the imagination and the show was for that ONE TIME--- Star Trek, the true original idealistic vision and idea of Star Trek unfettered and uncompromised by any network external forces to be itself and with the budget and time to do it right, something Star Trek never saw again.

I'm sure the network when they watched that in 1964, used to TV ideas gestating like Voyage To The Bottom of the Sea and Lost In Space must have seen this new drama, a complete and suddenly holistic world with palpable 3-D characters yet set centuries into the future as they watched this incredible, unbelievable ship that looked like it really belonged in space with its captain aboard anguish to his doctor over his own personal doubts after returning back from Rigel now considering giving up the service and escaping to a new career to get away from the pressure as MAGNITUDES above the usual type of soapbox-selling tripe they expected. The show must have shocked them on every level including having the most awesome painted alien scenery never again equaled since and dealt with the very underpinnings of a person's sense of life and accomplishment within--- that both drives and haunts us in our lives, and it literally brought me to tears a couple of times imagining someone seeing this for the first time ever almost 60 years ago.

At one point, they even bring down one of the actual spare ship's phaser banks bolted to a table and try to blast the top off a mountain.

But it was just too scary for NBC to gamble on, too different on so many levels yet they saw so much real potential in it as if they had just really been to a far different world far into the future that they gave it a 2nd chance, so then I watched the original unaired complete 1965 pilot Where No Man Has Gone Before set in four acts. Star Trek was now so much better focused and refined now having already worked out all the basic ideas in The Cage plus casting issues, they melded #1 into Mr. Spock together and moved him up while getting rid of Majel whose strong female role scared them, and now the show was set much more boldly as an action drama now for the first time defining the future character of the series where a more swashbuckling captain leaves the galaxy on a mission only to end up dealing with both losing his best friend to tragic forces while dealing with the frailties of mankind's nature projected with unlimited opportunity suddenly realizing Godhood in the process of destroying himself. Very heavy.

Thanks for inspiring me to watch them again as if it was my first time all over again as well.