This is Law and Order?

[TroglocratsRdumb]

El Salvador rounding their butts up and throwing them in jail...................we are not the only ones with the problem.

daaaayum look at all those Democrat Voters

 

[OldLady]

This Bill sounds like a typical RICO law that have been passed and tested for many decades

What is a RICO law?

Google is your friend!

Passed in 1970, the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (RICO) is a federal law designed to combat organized crime in the United States. It allows prosecution and civil penalties for racketeering activity performed as part of an ongoing criminal enterprise.

Thanks! I'm not so sure if suspected Mafia membership were a crime, that it would have taken us so long to break its hold on the system. But it's good to know.

 

[OldLady]

H.R. 3697 Criminal Alien Gang Member Removal Act

Not so sure about the "Law" part.

So the Republicans want to make suspected membership in a gang a crime, regardless if the person has committed any crime and regardless if the person is here legally or not. Suspected membership in a gang alone can lead to automatic deportation. They will be denied entry into the country based on suspected membership in a gang and they will be denied any requests for asylum.

If you aren't a US citizen, we will round you up and send you back to your native country if you are suspected of being a gang member, It also gives authorities the ability to name a group a "gang" under a very wide definition. Although the sponsors of the bill were mostly discussing MS-13, any group of five or more people involved in drug or human smuggling, etc. can be named a gang.

I see how HR 3697, the Criminal Alien Gang Member Removal Act, which was just passed by the House of Representatives, could lead to a lot of racial profiling and abuse of the system. According to the Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, Senator Goodlatte (R) Virginia, waiting until a gang member commits a crime in order to deport them is unacceptable. I am no Constitutional scholar, but Holy Shit! This is a bit chilling.

On the other hand, I hate gangs and what they are doing to our young people in so many American cities. Making it easier to stop them should be a good thing, but what worries me is this "suspected" part. That's where I see a whole lot of potentially innocent people getting the shaft.

The situation of no evidence and no crime being necessary just gives me the willies.

It will sure cause a surge in tatoo removal services, that's for sure.

This is the actual bill, which will go to the Senate.
Text - H.R.3697 - 115th Congress (2017-2018): Criminal Alien Gang Member Removal Act

An article on the bill.
House votes to crack down on undocumented immigrants with gang ties

It frankly sounds too good to be true. Therefore it probably is... Or at the very least, it will not stand up to constitutional scrutiny...

Well, it hasn't passed the Senate. That reaction will be interesting. Hard decision either way, I think.

 

[OldLady]

I see how HR 3697, the Criminal Alien Gang Member Removal Act, which was just passed by the House of Representatives, could lead to a lot of racial profiling and abuse of the system.

Yes I am sure many on the far left view things this way, as the far left are the one and only true racists on the planet.

But then again you are relying on far left religious dogma sites for your facts and refuse to read the actual bill you posted.

Oh, I read it. Heard about it on CSPAN this a.m. and started looking into it a bit. It was the first I had heard of it.

I don't pretend to be great at reading legislation; if you can clarify what it says that I have misinterpreted, I would welcome that.

Can not teach far left drones anything they are not programmed to accept!

Post the portions you do not understand. and caused you to spew that far left religious dogma.

I don't know that I read any of it incorrectly. You're the one who said I did. So if you say I'm wrong, tell me why.

 

[OldLady]

This is their target. Hard to find them...............lol.................no...........no.......don't profile

It will sure cause a surge in tatoo removal services, that's for sure.

Good Luck with that.................lol

I suppose they could be encouraged to train for a legitimate career, like in the side show of a traveling circus, except there aren't many of those around anymore.

 

[Kosh]

I see how HR 3697, the Criminal Alien Gang Member Removal Act, which was just passed by the House of Representatives, could lead to a lot of racial profiling and abuse of the system.

Yes I am sure many on the far left view things this way, as the far left are the one and only true racists on the planet.

But then again you are relying on far left religious dogma sites for your facts and refuse to read the actual bill you posted.

Oh, I read it. Heard about it on CSPAN this a.m. and started looking into it a bit. It was the first I had heard of it.

I don't pretend to be great at reading legislation; if you can clarify what it says that I have misinterpreted, I would welcome that.

Can not teach far left drones anything they are not programmed to accept!

Post the portions you do not understand. and caused you to spew that far left religious dogma.

I don't know that I read any of it incorrectly. You're the one who said I did. So if you say I'm wrong, tell me why.

Well you were the one that spewed the far left religious dogma, so show the passages that caused you to spew al that far left garbage.

Prove what you posted as correct!

The burden of proof is on you to prove your comments!

 

[OldLady]

I see how HR 3697, the Criminal Alien Gang Member Removal Act, which was just passed by the House of Representatives, could lead to a lot of racial profiling and abuse of the system.

Yes I am sure many on the far left view things this way, as the far left are the one and only true racists on the planet.

But then again you are relying on far left religious dogma sites for your facts and refuse to read the actual bill you posted.

Oh, I read it. Heard about it on CSPAN this a.m. and started looking into it a bit. It was the first I had heard of it.

I don't pretend to be great at reading legislation; if you can clarify what it says that I have misinterpreted, I would welcome that.

Can not teach far left drones anything they are not programmed to accept!

Post the portions you do not understand. and caused you to spew that far left religious dogma.

I don't know that I read any of it incorrectly. You're the one who said I did. So if you say I'm wrong, tell me why.

Well you were the one that spewed the far left religious dogma, so show the passages that caused you to spew al that far left garbage.

Prove what you posted as correct!

The burden of proof is on you to prove your comments!

No, you are the one who said I misinterpreted it. WHERE?

 

[Kosh]

Yes I am sure many on the far left view things this way, as the far left are the one and only true racists on the planet.

But then again you are relying on far left religious dogma sites for your facts and refuse to read the actual bill you posted.

Oh, I read it. Heard about it on CSPAN this a.m. and started looking into it a bit. It was the first I had heard of it.

I don't pretend to be great at reading legislation; if you can clarify what it says that I have misinterpreted, I would welcome that.

Can not teach far left drones anything they are not programmed to accept!

Post the portions you do not understand. and caused you to spew that far left religious dogma.

I don't know that I read any of it incorrectly. You're the one who said I did. So if you say I'm wrong, tell me why.

Well you were the one that spewed the far left religious dogma, so show the passages that caused you to spew al that far left garbage.

Prove what you posted as correct!

The burden of proof is on you to prove your comments!

No, you are the one who said I misinterpreted it. WHERE?

I pointed out you spewed far left religious dogma, so I am asking you to show what passages made you spew that dogma.

You have to prove your comments correct!

It is not up to anyone to prove your comments wrong!

 

[toobfreak]

I feel if this passes the Senate, that it will go the route of the first "Muslim Ban" as being totally outside the scope of what we consider legal in this country.

As to the "Muslim Ban," that was a deliberate misnomer by Trump's opponents. It is perfectly within the authority and purview of the President to directly regulate our borders, up to and including following through on Obama's guideline of restricting immigration and ingress of undocumented people from nations with high ties and connections to ISIS, et al. The law was written based on place of origin and says nothing about religion. If it did, then it still grossly misses out from numerous other muslim nations still free to enter! So the argument that this law is a civil violation is non sequitur.

As to kids crossing the border being possibly tied to MS13; putting that wall up would solve that problem. I realize that some of these people are just looking for safety and a better life, but that is really their country's problem and we cannot take on all the problems of the world. There ARE legal channels on applying for VISAs and true immigration.

 

[OldLady]

I feel if this passes the Senate, that it will go the route of the first "Muslim Ban" as being totally outside the scope of what we consider legal in this country.

As to the "Muslim Ban," that was a deliberate misnomer by Trump's opponents. It is perfectly within the authority and purview of the President to directly regulate our borders, up to and including following through on Obama's guideline of restricting immigration and ingress of undocumented people from nations with high ties and connections to ISIS, et al. The law was written based on place of origin and says nothing about religion. If it did, then it still grossly misses out from numerous other muslim nations still free to enter! So the argument that this law is a civil violation is non sequitur.

As to kids crossing the border being possibly tied to MS13; putting that wall up would solve that problem. I realize that some of these people are just looking for safety and a better life, but that is really their country's problem and we cannot take on all the problems of the world. There ARE legal channels on applying for VISAs and true immigration.

The administration rewrote it's "Travel Ban" as POTUS calls it and it is Version 2 that is currently pending review before the Supreme Court. I was referring to the first one; it was the Administration's call to ditch Version 1 as not likely to make it through the Courts.

This act apparently is not just about people here illegally. According to Goodlatte, people here legally with Visas and green cards can also be automatically deported, no fuss no muss. And the wording is,

(J) ALIENS ASSOCIATED WITH CRIMINAL GANGS.—Any alien is inadmissible who a consular officer, the Secretary of Homeland Security, or the Attorney General knows or has reason to believe—
“(i) to be or to have been a member of a criminal gang (as defined in section 101(a)(53));

That's a pretty darned fuzzy definition of "evidence," which is the part that concerns me.

Well, they're aliens, anyway, so why should I care, right? Not sure what our law and order president plans to do about the thousands upon thousands of MS-13 gang members who are Americans. No foreign country to ship them off to. Maybe they'll come out with a new bill to put any one, citizen or not, into prison if they are suspected of being in a gang.

You know, we are supposed to be known as a country where human rights are protected. But we can shit all over the people living here who are not citizens? That has never been our stance in the past. If they are here, they are given due process. There is no due process in this bill that I see.

 

[Peach]

This Bill sounds like a typical RICO law that have been passed and tested for many decades

What is a RICO law?

Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations; ignore the extremist right, they tout liberty but prefer draconian laws like the above.

 

[OldLady]

This Bill sounds like a typical RICO law that have been passed and tested for many decades

What is a RICO law?

Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations; ignore the extremist right, they tout liberty but prefer draconian laws like the above.

I can't ignore a bill that just passed the House with the support of all but one Republican. That's getting a little close for comfort, and I have heard absolutely nothing about this on the national news. It's apparently nowhere near as important as Trump's latest tweet about the London subway bomb.
Interesting what's important, hey?

 

[Peach]

This Bill sounds like a typical RICO law that have been passed and tested for many decades

What is a RICO law?

Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations; ignore the extremist right, they tout liberty but prefer draconian laws like the above.

I can't ignore a bill that just passed the House with the support of all but one Republican. That's getting a little close for comfort, and I have heard absolutely nothing about this on the national news. It's apparently nowhere near as important as Trump's latest tweet about the London subway bomb.
Interesting what's important, hey?

Since North Korea got a pass from Trump, what is there to report? Law & Order is now "hide or die" for some.

 

[toobfreak]

That's a pretty darned fuzzy definition of "evidence," which is the part that concerns me.

Well, hasn't that always been a fundamental flaw to our lawmaking system? Ruling By Committee is the worst of all possible systems; it promises more justice by having the input of many, but what it really accomplishes is what is known mathematically as Highest Common Factor (what many wrongly call Lowest Common Denominator). Lawmakers jerk around arguing, giving speeches, having wine and dinner together and patting each other on the back, then in the 11th hour, pass a law that is meant to be taken verbatim with no thought given to its many permutations.

The flaw is that the "Law" thus becomes words on a page meant to be read, interpreted and acted on WITHOUT INTELLIGENT INTERVENTION, meaning that the judge or court has no latitude in many circumstances to look beyond the letter of the law. Too many judges use the letter of the law as a crutch to avoid personal responsibility, when a GOOD judge has the wisdom and good judgement to understand the INTENT of the law and to apply it intelligently to each individual situation.

THERE CAN BE NO JUSTICE SO LONG AS LAWS ARE ABSOLUTE!

Unfortunately, few of our lawmakers have the intelligence, wisdom, patience or dedication to flesh out the laws to give the courts the latitude to always act intelligently or fairly.

 

[OldLady]

This Bill sounds like a typical RICO law that have been passed and tested for many decades

What is a RICO law?

Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations; ignore the extremist right, they tout liberty but prefer draconian laws like the above.

I can't ignore a bill that just passed the House with the support of all but one Republican. That's getting a little close for comfort, and I have heard absolutely nothing about this on the national news. It's apparently nowhere near as important as Trump's latest tweet about the London subway bomb.
Interesting what's important, hey?

Since North Korea got a pass from Trump, what is there to report? Law & Order is now "hide or die" for some.

Who is going to die?

 

[OldLady]

That's a pretty darned fuzzy definition of "evidence," which is the part that concerns me.

Well, hasn't that always been a fundamental flaw to our lawmaking system? Ruling By Committee is the worst of all possible systems; it promises more justice by having the input of many, but what it really accomplishes is what is known mathematically as Highest Common Factor (what many wrongly call Lowest Common Denominator). Lawmakers jerk around arguing, giving speeches, having wine and dinner together and patting each other on the back, then in the 11th hour, pass a law that is meant to be taken verbatim with no thought given to its many permutations.

The flaw is that the "Law" thus becomes words on a page meant to be read, interpreted and acted on WITHOUT INTELLIGENT INTERVENTION, meaning that the judge or court has no latitude in many circumstances to look beyond the letter of the law. Too many judges use the letter of the law as a crutch to avoid personal responsibility, when a GOOD judge has the wisdom and good judgement to understand the INTENT of the law and to apply it intelligently to each individual situation.

THERE CAN BE NO JUSTICE SO LONG AS LAWS ARE ABSOLUTE!

Unfortunately, few of our lawmakers have the intelligence, wisdom, patience or dedication to flesh out the laws to give the courts the latitude to always act intelligently or fairly.

When you put it that way, it is the only good argument I can think of for a two party system. At least there is an opposing force trying to show the other side of the coin.

 

[Peach]

This Bill sounds like a typical RICO law that have been passed and tested for many decades

What is a RICO law?

Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations; ignore the extremist right, they tout liberty but prefer draconian laws like the above.

I can't ignore a bill that just passed the House with the support of all but one Republican. That's getting a little close for comfort, and I have heard absolutely nothing about this on the national news. It's apparently nowhere near as important as Trump's latest tweet about the London subway bomb.
Interesting what's important, hey?

Since North Korea got a pass from Trump, what is there to report? Law & Order is now "hide or die" for some.

Who is going to die?

Too many in inner cities from many causes.

 

[OldLady]

Long but factual article on MS-13 and why deportation may not be the miracle cure.
Trump Doesn't Understand MS-13

El Salvador's role
What Can Trump Do About MS-13?

 

[OldLady]

I feel if this passes the Senate, that it will go the route of the first "Muslim Ban" as being totally outside the scope of what we consider legal in this country.

As to the "Muslim Ban," that was a deliberate misnomer by Trump's opponents. It is perfectly within the authority and purview of the President to directly regulate our borders, up to and including following through on Obama's guideline of restricting immigration and ingress of undocumented people from nations with high ties and connections to ISIS, et al. The law was written based on place of origin and says nothing about religion. If it did, then it still grossly misses out from numerous other muslim nations still free to enter! So the argument that this law is a civil violation is non sequitur.

As to kids crossing the border being possibly tied to MS13; putting that wall up would solve that problem. I realize that some of these people are just looking for safety and a better life, but that is really their country's problem and we cannot take on all the problems of the world. There ARE legal channels on applying for VISAs and true immigration.

As to kids crossing the border being possibly tied to MS13; putting that wall up would solve that problem.
A physical or technological barrier would certainly help. They say MS-13 is overwhelmingly El Salvadorians. So sending them home would make sense, but this is an over-broad bill that grants no basic legal rights whatsoever and also allows DOJ to label any group a "gang." I sure don't want MS-13 here, but this bill seems more worthy of a dictatorship than the U.S.

And if gang membership is a crime, what are we going to do with all the gang members in our cities who are Americans?

 

[strollingbones]

juggalos are a gang? really? and marched for their freedoms this saturday in d.c. more juggalos showed up than trump supporters ..... you can now be declared a gang member for following icp?

sadly most of you will simply go...what is a juggalo.....as your freedoms slip away