This is why we need a living wage

[sameech]

He wont likely be able to turn it into a business unfortunately. Illegals and immigrants have that market cornered.
I do agree wholeheartedly with you that it teaches the kid a valuable lesson about work. Unfortunately that lesson has been taken away from our children. Just like most min wage jobs.

Depends on where one lives. There are several small landscaping/maintenance businesses in my area that are either run by whites or blacks. None that I know of that are owned and operated by immigrants.

Dont worry,they're headed your way. It's only a matter of time.

We have a lot of immigrants in my area. They just haven't gone into the landscaping thing. Most of the Hispanic ones are construction or ag workers and the Asian ones are more into restaurants/boutiques, and the Middle Eastern ones seem to have acquired just about every convenience store in the area except for 1 hold out.

 

[Bush92]

Raising minimum wage is not the answer.Block all Chinese goods coming into the U.S. as well as seal off border with Mexico and you will have millions of blue collar jobs return to the United States.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Raising minimum wage is not the answer.Block all Chinese goods coming into the U.S. as well as seal off border with Mexico and you will have millions of blue collar jobs return to the United States.

You could limit Chinese imports but if you block them altogether product prices will go up.
But getting rid of all the illegals would do wonders no doubt. Although that would drive up costs as well. But it would be worth it to put Americans back to work.

 

[Uncensored2008]

So you completely missed the OP. The whole point of this thread is that if we pay the lowest paid workers at Walmart enough, they don't have to get foodstamps and all it will cost us is less than a penny on the dollar. Our taxes would be LESS. It's a win/win. But no, you and the others have to complain about raising the minimum wage and keep every tight fisted penny you have because hording your money is much more important to you than paying less in taxes especially when it means that someone else won't have to depend on the government teat.

If we just give every person in the world $10 million, then everyone would be rich....

Like your plan, it's a stupid/stupid...

 

[Uncensored2008]

We have a lot of immigrants in my area. They just haven't gone into the landscaping thing. Most of the Hispanic ones are construction or ag workers and the Asian ones are more into restaurants/boutiques, and the Middle Eastern ones seem to have acquired just about every convenience store in the area except for 1 hold out.

My "gardener" is Mexican, but speaks English well - I'm sure he is legal and was probably born here.

Of course I've never seen him push a mower, his crew does that, he doesn't come with them when they do my yard - not a one of them utter a word of English, they're all wetbacks.

That's business in California, the boss is American, the crew are illegals.

 

[sameech]

We have a lot of immigrants in my area. They just haven't gone into the landscaping thing. Most of the Hispanic ones are construction or ag workers and the Asian ones are more into restaurants/boutiques, and the Middle Eastern ones seem to have acquired just about every convenience store in the area except for 1 hold out.

My "gardener" is Mexican, but speaks English well - I'm sure he is legal and was probably born here.

Of course I've never seen him push a mower, his crew does that, he doesn't come with them when they do my yard - not a one of them utter a word of English, they're all wetbacks.

That's business in California, the boss is American, the crew are illegals.

I saw that a lot when I lived in Northern Virginia/DC. Apparently the enlightened left likes their yards to be mowed on the cheap too, but not so much further south where I am now.

 

[Mathbud1]

I can't find the post right now, but a either in this thread or the other one about fast food workers striking someone posted a link to an article that made an ironic point.

Raising minimum wage doesn't help older poor people who are using minimum wage to support their family. It really makes getting a job more attractive for the teenagers from the more affluent areas though. Why keep a tired old guy around when you can get a strong-backed teen to do the menial labor? The teen doesn't need a job because he has mommy and daddy to pay his bills, but if it pays enough it just became much more attractive.

So raising minimum wage isn't going to magically save all the poor people living off minimum wage jobs. It will probably just drive them out of the job altogether.

 

[priceless]

I'll take the Great Gatsby version of economics over the Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance version if those are my only two choices.

what does that mean?

 

[sameech]

I'll take the Great Gatsby version of economics over the Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance version if those are my only two choices.

what does that mean?

I would rather have what we have with great inequities and excesses than have some system where we have less money and far fewer goods, jobs, etc.

 

[priceless]

I would rather have what we have with great inequities and excesses than have some system where we have less money and far fewer goods, jobs, etc.

Too many assumptions and not enough specifics for a good economic discussion. Basically you're just assuming a status quo and defending it against change. That always makes for bad discussion/politics.

 

[sameech]

I would rather have what we have with great inequities and excesses than have some system where we have less money and far fewer goods, jobs, etc.

Too many assumptions and not enough specifics for a good economic discussion. Basically you're just assuming a status quo and defending it against change. That always makes for bad discussion/politics.

Well when you come up with an idea that isn't worse than communism in practice, let me know. Otherwise, yes, I will prefer the status quo over standing in line for toilet paper. My bowels are not as hardy as some people's.

 

[alan1]

Number one, the guy who mows my lawn gets $20, $30 if he also does the trimming. It takes about an hour so that's a living wage, and he's a kid. Number two, I don't eat at McDonalds, you couldn't pay me to eat there. I eat a Denny's, or Village Inn and guess what? Yep, they pay a living wage.

Did you read the OP? They could raise the Walmart's workers pay to a living wage and it would cost you a whopping penny more on the dollar.

Is it really a living wage?
First of all, $30 an hour is 50% more than $20, that is quite a wide price range you claim to pay.
But, lets go beyond that, and assume $30 for your yard and everybody else yard. You said he is a kid, does this "kid" spend 5 days a week and 40 hours a day mowing lawns? Lets assume he spends 40 hours a week (8 hours a day) making his "living wage". Now then, he can't possibly be mowing lawns for 8 hours a day in an 8 hour day of work. He has to travel from one house to the next house. He has to spend time drumming up business. In reality, he may mow five yards a day on the high end. That's 5 yards times $30 per yard for an hour per yard and it equals $150 per day We have now reduced his pay to $18.75 per hour.
But wait, there is more.
He has to pay for the gas to run his lawnmower. He also has to pay for the gas for his truck to get him and his lawnmower from one house to the next house. He has to pay for the lawnmower and the maintenance of it. He has to pay for his truck and its maintenance to get him from job to job. He has to pay for his trimmer and the gas to run that. Remember now, you only pay him $30 if he does the trimming also, so I'm guessing you usually only pay him $20.

But still, I'm assuming the $30. You think you are paying him a living wage for the $30 for the hour he is at your house. In fact, the guy is probably making about $11 an hour after all his travel in an 8 hour day and the expenses for his equipment and supplies. Not to mention that he probably has to satisfy 50 different customers/homeowners a month if mowing lawns is the business that supports his family.

Your shortsighted view that you are paying him $20 or $30 an hour and that is a "living wage" is kind of funny. But not 'funny' haha kind of funny.

He lives next door, and he's too young to drive. I paid him $30 last week, he forgot to do the trimming so I paid him $20 this week. He did the trimming. Next week, if he does the trimming also, I will pay him the $30. Ours is a difficult yard and there is a lot of trimming, hence the extra $10.

Still you are avoiding the point and going off on a tangent about what a terrible person I am for paying the kid who mows my lawn between $20 and $30 for an hours work. Why do you object to paying a penny on the dollar more so people don't have to depend on food stamps to live?

I don't object to it and I never accused you being a terrible person, what ever gave you that idea?
I was merely explaining how for that kind of work, $20-$30 isn't a living wage if somebody is trying to support themselves or a family. now then, you did explain that it was the kid next door, so he obviously isn't trying to support himself or a family. He's also not collecting food stamps. Then, you claim I am going off on a tangent when it was you that brought up your neighbor kid, not me.

The going rate in my area for a yard my size runs $50-60. Neighborhood kids used to do it for cheaper than that, but they didn't do a good job so I hired an adult to do it for the going rate. When it comes time to fertilize, throw down some more seed or aerate he charges me more. Sometimes I trim my own hedges, sometimes I pay him to do it. The guy I've got now does a great job. I've recommended him to some friends and coworkers and he's picked some of them up as clients also.

My yard man is actually a good example of what this thread is about. He's not out there demanding a living wage, he's out there trying to earn one. He knocked on my door looking for business. He works hard. He does a great job. A few weeks ago, some idiot hit my mailbox post with their car (lots of people practice driving in my neighborhood because the DMV does their on-the-road tests in my neighborhood), I didn't have time to repair it that weekend. The next time Chris mowed my yard, he took the time to repair it. He told me no charge, it was a thank you for me recommending him to other clients. That is exactly the type of person that is going above and beyond instead of just expecting a "living wage". I gave him an extra $20 because I know he probably spent 45 minutes to an hour repairing it (I've done the repair myself many times and I know how long it takes). At first he didn't want to take the extra money, he said it was a slow day for him anyways, and he had the time.

That same type of attitude holds true for somebody working at Walmart or in fast food or in corporate America or landscaping, you go above and beyond and you will get promoted and you will make more money, I've seen it be true for the 40 years I've been in the workforce. People don't get paid more money just because they think they should be paid more, they get paid more because they've done something to earn it and because they provide extra value to their employer.

 

[Againsheila]

Is it really a living wage?
First of all, $30 an hour is 50% more than $20, that is quite a wide price range you claim to pay.
But, lets go beyond that, and assume $30 for your yard and everybody else yard. You said he is a kid, does this "kid" spend 5 days a week and 40 hours a day mowing lawns? Lets assume he spends 40 hours a week (8 hours a day) making his "living wage". Now then, he can't possibly be mowing lawns for 8 hours a day in an 8 hour day of work. He has to travel from one house to the next house. He has to spend time drumming up business. In reality, he may mow five yards a day on the high end. That's 5 yards times $30 per yard for an hour per yard and it equals $150 per day We have now reduced his pay to $18.75 per hour.
But wait, there is more.
He has to pay for the gas to run his lawnmower. He also has to pay for the gas for his truck to get him and his lawnmower from one house to the next house. He has to pay for the lawnmower and the maintenance of it. He has to pay for his truck and its maintenance to get him from job to job. He has to pay for his trimmer and the gas to run that. Remember now, you only pay him $30 if he does the trimming also, so I'm guessing you usually only pay him $20.

But still, I'm assuming the $30. You think you are paying him a living wage for the $30 for the hour he is at your house. In fact, the guy is probably making about $11 an hour after all his travel in an 8 hour day and the expenses for his equipment and supplies. Not to mention that he probably has to satisfy 50 different customers/homeowners a month if mowing lawns is the business that supports his family.

Your shortsighted view that you are paying him $20 or $30 an hour and that is a "living wage" is kind of funny. But not 'funny' haha kind of funny.

He lives next door, and he's too young to drive. I paid him $30 last week, he forgot to do the trimming so I paid him $20 this week. He did the trimming. Next week, if he does the trimming also, I will pay him the $30. Ours is a difficult yard and there is a lot of trimming, hence the extra $10.

Still you are avoiding the point and going off on a tangent about what a terrible person I am for paying the kid who mows my lawn between $20 and $30 for an hours work. Why do you object to paying a penny on the dollar more so people don't have to depend on food stamps to live?

I don't object to it and I never accused you being a terrible person, what ever gave you that idea?
I was merely explaining how for that kind of work, $20-$30 isn't a living wage if somebody is trying to support themselves or a family. now then, you did explain that it was the kid next door, so he obviously isn't trying to support himself or a family. He's also not collecting food stamps. Then, you claim I am going off on a tangent when it was you that brought up your neighbor kid, not me.

The going rate in my area for a yard my size runs $50-60. Neighborhood kids used to do it for cheaper than that, but they didn't do a good job so I hired an adult to do it for the going rate. When it comes time to fertilize, throw down some more seed or aerate he charges me more. Sometimes I trim my own hedges, sometimes I pay him to do it. The guy I've got now does a great job. I've recommended him to some friends and coworkers and he's picked some of them up as clients also.

My yard man is actually a good example of what this thread is about. He's not out there demanding a living wage, he's out there trying to earn one. He knocked on my door looking for business. He works hard. He does a great job. A few weeks ago, some idiot hit my mailbox post with their car (lots of people practice driving in my neighborhood because the DMV does their on-the-road tests in my neighborhood), I didn't have time to repair it that weekend. The next time Chris mowed my yard, he took the time to repair it. He told me no charge, it was a thank you for me recommending him to other clients. That is exactly the type of person that is going above and beyond instead of just expecting a "living wage". I gave him an extra $20 because I know he probably spent 45 minutes to an hour repairing it (I've done the repair myself many times and I know how long it takes). At first he didn't want to take the extra money, he said it was a slow day for him anyways, and he had the time.

That same type of attitude holds true for somebody working at Walmart or in fast food or in corporate America or landscaping, you go above and beyond and you will get promoted and you will make more money, I've seen it be true for the 40 years I've been in the workforce. People don't get paid more money just because they think they should be paid more, they get paid more because they've done something to earn it and because they provide extra value to their employer.

I've seen just the opposite. Especially in government jobs. You do a good job you are never going to advance. Plus there isn't anywhere to advance today, by outsourcing and insourcing, we've removed too many rungs on the ladder.

 

[alan1]

He lives next door, and he's too young to drive. I paid him $30 last week, he forgot to do the trimming so I paid him $20 this week. He did the trimming. Next week, if he does the trimming also, I will pay him the $30. Ours is a difficult yard and there is a lot of trimming, hence the extra $10.

Still you are avoiding the point and going off on a tangent about what a terrible person I am for paying the kid who mows my lawn between $20 and $30 for an hours work. Why do you object to paying a penny on the dollar more so people don't have to depend on food stamps to live?

I applaud you on many levels. You are helping instill a work ethic in the kid, you are helping him empower himself with a trade that he can fall back on or expand into a real business someday, and you are teaching him that he must do what he is paid to do in order to be paid. That said, it is not really an example of a "living wage" situation. If anything, it is an example of how prices are set. You are willing to pay it and he is willing to do it for that price. That is no different than what happens in the larger market at McDonald's that will start the kid off at Minimum Wage if he is willing to do it. Otherwise they will find someone else who will just as you would need to find someone else to mow your grass if he was not willing to do it at a price you were willing to pay.

That is very libertarian of you, and very factual of you.
Nobody is forced to work for minimum wage or for a wage they find unacceptable. Wages are a negotiation between an employer (somebody willing to pay for labor) and an employee (somebody willing to offer labor for a wage). We often pay for stuff we don't want to do ourselves. I buy bacon at a grocery store because I don't want to raise a pig, kill a pig, clean a pig, cut a pig up, build a smokehouse, cut down trees to build the smokehouse and for the smoking, or all the other things that are required so I can eat bacon. I'm more than willing to pay for hog ranchers, butchers, smokers and tree-cutters to do that work for me. But, there is only so much I will pay for bacon, if the rancher, butcher, smoker, smokehouse builder and tree-cutter all earned $50 an hour I probably wouldn't buy bacon or raise, butcher and smoke my own hogs for the bacon, I'd go without bacon.

 

[alan1]

It's certainly all profit to the kid next door. His dad even pays for the gas and provides the mower. And before you say it, we bought our two cars from him so yes, I think we paid for the gas his kid uses to mow our lawn.

But it's not a living wage (whatever that is) for the kid. The costs to his daddy still diminish the profit and as soon as he runs out of next door neighbors those costs will rise dramatically. Alan pointed out the gaping hole in your "living wage" fantasy (the silliness of multiplying it by 40 hrs) and, as predicted, you still post as if you haven't had it explained to you.
BTW, do you not understand what will happen to all those who are more valuable to Walmart who make something above the current min wage but less than the "living wage" you promote? Do you not understand that they do will have to be paid more? Certainly the OP doesn't account for them. How about all the smaller companies in America? What will happen to them? Frankly, I believe you may be well intentioned but you can see only as far as what makes you feel good.

ONE PENNY more on the dollar. ONE PENNY!!! You are so cheep you can't pay a blasted penny so that someone else doesn't have to rely on food stamps and our tax dollars.

Again, no one is demanding we pay a living wage for someone working an hour a week. We are demanding a fair living wage per hour of work. You're just made that I pay the kid who mows my lawn more than the average Walmart worker makes in an hour. More than double what they make in an hour.

I'm sure the Walmart workers won't mind if you tip them since you feel so strongly about this. I certainly don't mind if you want to tip them for the for the service you receive. What's holding you back?

 

[sameech]

But it's not a living wage (whatever that is) for the kid. The costs to his daddy still diminish the profit and as soon as he runs out of next door neighbors those costs will rise dramatically. Alan pointed out the gaping hole in your "living wage" fantasy (the silliness of multiplying it by 40 hrs) and, as predicted, you still post as if you haven't had it explained to you.
BTW, do you not understand what will happen to all those who are more valuable to Walmart who make something above the current min wage but less than the "living wage" you promote? Do you not understand that they do will have to be paid more? Certainly the OP doesn't account for them. How about all the smaller companies in America? What will happen to them? Frankly, I believe you may be well intentioned but you can see only as far as what makes you feel good.

ONE PENNY more on the dollar. ONE PENNY!!! You are so cheep you can't pay a blasted penny so that someone else doesn't have to rely on food stamps and our tax dollars.

Again, no one is demanding we pay a living wage for someone working an hour a week. We are demanding a fair living wage per hour of work. You're just made that I pay the kid who mows my lawn more than the average Walmart worker makes in an hour. More than double what they make in an hour.

I'm sure the Walmart workers won't mind if you tip them since you feel so strongly about this. I certainly don't mind if you want to tip them for the for the service you receive. What's holding you back?

They'd probably be fired if they took it. Regardless, the problem with that evil Walmart argument is that in my area, the "living wage" is below Walmart's average wage nationally, not to mention that paying a person enough to survive on part-time work is unfair to full-time workers.

 

[alan1]

I can't find the post right now, but a either in this thread or the other one about fast food workers striking someone posted a link to an article that made an ironic point.

Raising minimum wage doesn't help older poor people who are using minimum wage to support their family. It really makes getting a job more attractive for the teenagers from the more affluent areas though. Why keep a tired old guy around when you can get a strong-backed teen to do the menial labor? The teen doesn't need a job because he has mommy and daddy to pay his bills, but if it pays enough it just became much more attractive.

So raising minimum wage isn't going to magically save all the poor people living off minimum wage jobs. It will probably just drive them out of the job altogether.

I wonder how many adults me, my brother and my two sisters put out of a low paying job during our teen years that were supporting a family just so we could buy a crappy car, beer and pot. We all had low paying jobs, but I don't think any of us ever had minimum wage jobs in our teens.

 

[alan1]

He lives next door, and he's too young to drive. I paid him $30 last week, he forgot to do the trimming so I paid him $20 this week. He did the trimming. Next week, if he does the trimming also, I will pay him the $30. Ours is a difficult yard and there is a lot of trimming, hence the extra $10.

Still you are avoiding the point and going off on a tangent about what a terrible person I am for paying the kid who mows my lawn between $20 and $30 for an hours work. Why do you object to paying a penny on the dollar more so people don't have to depend on food stamps to live?

I don't object to it and I never accused you being a terrible person, what ever gave you that idea?
I was merely explaining how for that kind of work, $20-$30 isn't a living wage if somebody is trying to support themselves or a family. now then, you did explain that it was the kid next door, so he obviously isn't trying to support himself or a family. He's also not collecting food stamps. Then, you claim I am going off on a tangent when it was you that brought up your neighbor kid, not me.

The going rate in my area for a yard my size runs $50-60. Neighborhood kids used to do it for cheaper than that, but they didn't do a good job so I hired an adult to do it for the going rate. When it comes time to fertilize, throw down some more seed or aerate he charges me more. Sometimes I trim my own hedges, sometimes I pay him to do it. The guy I've got now does a great job. I've recommended him to some friends and coworkers and he's picked some of them up as clients also.

My yard man is actually a good example of what this thread is about. He's not out there demanding a living wage, he's out there trying to earn one. He knocked on my door looking for business. He works hard. He does a great job. A few weeks ago, some idiot hit my mailbox post with their car (lots of people practice driving in my neighborhood because the DMV does their on-the-road tests in my neighborhood), I didn't have time to repair it that weekend. The next time Chris mowed my yard, he took the time to repair it. He told me no charge, it was a thank you for me recommending him to other clients. That is exactly the type of person that is going above and beyond instead of just expecting a "living wage". I gave him an extra $20 because I know he probably spent 45 minutes to an hour repairing it (I've done the repair myself many times and I know how long it takes). At first he didn't want to take the extra money, he said it was a slow day for him anyways, and he had the time.

That same type of attitude holds true for somebody working at Walmart or in fast food or in corporate America or landscaping, you go above and beyond and you will get promoted and you will make more money, I've seen it be true for the 40 years I've been in the workforce. People don't get paid more money just because they think they should be paid more, they get paid more because they've done something to earn it and because they provide extra value to their employer.

I've seen just the opposite. Especially in government jobs. You do a good job you are never going to advance. Plus there isn't anywhere to advance today, by outsourcing and insourcing, we've removed too many rungs on the ladder.

Wow, so your solution to your supposed problem is more government.
And why do you think that makes sense?

 

[alan1]

ONE PENNY more on the dollar. ONE PENNY!!! You are so cheep you can't pay a blasted penny so that someone else doesn't have to rely on food stamps and our tax dollars.

Again, no one is demanding we pay a living wage for someone working an hour a week. We are demanding a fair living wage per hour of work. You're just made that I pay the kid who mows my lawn more than the average Walmart worker makes in an hour. More than double what they make in an hour.

I'm sure the Walmart workers won't mind if you tip them since you feel so strongly about this. I certainly don't mind if you want to tip them for the for the service you receive. What's holding you back?

They'd probably be fired if they took it. Regardless, the problem with that evil Walmart argument is that in my area, the "living wage" is below Walmart's average wage nationally, not to mention that paying a person enough to survive on part-time work is unfair to full-time workers.

Why do you think they'd be fired because somebody tipped them?
I hope that was a facetious or joking comment.
Somethings are unclear on internet message boards.

 

[Againsheila]

But it's not a living wage (whatever that is) for the kid. The costs to his daddy still diminish the profit and as soon as he runs out of next door neighbors those costs will rise dramatically. Alan pointed out the gaping hole in your "living wage" fantasy (the silliness of multiplying it by 40 hrs) and, as predicted, you still post as if you haven't had it explained to you.
BTW, do you not understand what will happen to all those who are more valuable to Walmart who make something above the current min wage but less than the "living wage" you promote? Do you not understand that they do will have to be paid more? Certainly the OP doesn't account for them. How about all the smaller companies in America? What will happen to them? Frankly, I believe you may be well intentioned but you can see only as far as what makes you feel good.

ONE PENNY more on the dollar. ONE PENNY!!! You are so cheep you can't pay a blasted penny so that someone else doesn't have to rely on food stamps and our tax dollars.

Again, no one is demanding we pay a living wage for someone working an hour a week. We are demanding a fair living wage per hour of work. You're just made that I pay the kid who mows my lawn more than the average Walmart worker makes in an hour. More than double what they make in an hour.

I'm sure the Walmart workers won't mind if you tip them since you feel so strongly about this. I certainly don't mind if you want to tip them for the for the service you receive. What's holding you back?

Several things, the main one being that I think everyone should be paid a living wage. If I have to give them a tip as well, then they aren't being paid enough. And yes, I think we should even stop tipping waitresses and pay them a living wage instead. The price should be in the price of the food, not an added expense.

Interesting that you'd rather our tax dollars provide for these people than force the people who hire them to pay a living wage.

It's easy to say they aren't being forced to work for those wages but we all know that's not true. One of the reasons our immigration is so high is to keep our economy flush with workers in order to lower our wages. Then we subsidize those workers with food stamps which they spend at Walmart further inflating their coffers with our tax dollars. It would be better to pay that extra penny for every dollar spent.

Have you read our history? Do the words "company store" mean anything to you?