To those saying flipping burgers or dunking fries deserves 15.00 per hour...

[Ray From Cleveland]

Businesses should be financially responsible for their employees families.

Why? What happened to personal responsibility? Did the business hire the family?

If you want hardworking loyal employees you must give them what they need to match their priorities in return. They don't work for you because they love dealing with your asshole customers. They don't work for you because they love the company. They work for you because they need that paycheck to provide for their families.

But companies don't hire people to provide a paycheck for the worker and his (or her) families. Companies hire people to perform work they need.

Like I said earlier, if you need your transmission rebuilt and get three estimates, you don't choose the highest one, you choose the lowest one. It's not your concern if the mechanic or the business are making enough to provide for their families. That's their problem. Your problem is that you need work done for the lowest price you can get.

 

[JoeB131]

Yes, dollars alone. The big bucks come from benefits, especially legacy benefits. That's where the UAW workers surpass people in just about every country, and benefits have to be included in labor costs.

Okay, let's look at that.

First and foremost, if there is a "legacy" cost, it's because the management did not set aside that money 30 years ago when those costs were incurred. They should have been setting aside money all along for those workers, not trying to make it up now.

Second- you kind of have a point that the UAW is paying a lot for medical insurance while Japan and Germany have single payer systems (what Germany has a bit more complex, but never mind). But in terms of pensions, they are about equal.

 

[JoeB131]

But companies don't hire people to provide a paycheck for the worker and his (or her) families. Companies hire people to perform work they need.

Like I said earlier, if you need your transmission rebuilt and get three estimates, you don't choose the highest one, you choose the lowest one. It's not your concern if the mechanic or the business are making enough to provide for their families. That's their problem. Your problem is that you need your transmission rebuilt for the lowest cost you can get.

Yeah, you see, the problem with that is if the lowest guy uses crappy materials and poor workmanship, you are kind of buying yourself a bigger problem.

I mean, I had an alternator replaced by the "Cheap guy". It was hilarious when my engine caught on fire!

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Because we have laws against discrimination. And companies do hire all black workers. In fact a few of our customers replaced all their white workers with blacks because blacks will work for less money. They don't discriminate against whites, it's just that white workers will not accept their low pay offers.

That same government could put laws in place mandating $15 per hour minimums. Are you really this dense or are you playing a game?

What's dense about telling the truth? We DO have customers that replaced their all white crew with blacks because they lowered their pay scale. It's perfectly legal too!

I'm definitely not talking about that. What do you find wrong with an employer hiring the person they see fit for the job? Blacks get picked over whites because the squeaky wheel gets the grease... and they are the squeakiest of the bunch.

Whites don't work because you have 20, 30, 40 and beyond whites living with mommy, receiving welfare/ Socialist Security / etc. and an allowance from the their parents not to work.

And you don't think you have that with black people? Think again. Trust me, I live in a black community.

It's hard to figure out what you're talking about half the time; not just with me, but many others here apparently.

Blacks work for lower wages because the cost of living in inner-cities are lower. A three bedroom apartment in the inner-city can cost them $350.00 a month while in the white burbs, the same kind of apartment costs $900.00 a month or more.

Plus it's less of a race issue than a cost of living issue. For instance I make deliveries in the sticks. All white communities usually with lower paying jobs. However the cost of living in the country is much lower than in the city and suburbs. People can get along just fine on lower wages for that reason, and people in the country have no problem working 50 to 60 hours a week.

The reason people don't understand me is that I am neither left or right. Most of the posters on this thread seem to only want an angle by which to flame someone. I've told them: it's largely because they want to get in an argument, but are too much of a coward to go try their insults in public.

If I see that the left has a point, I admit to it. If the right makes a point, I will agree with them. That does not mean that I agree with their solutions.

I live in a town that, in 1980 was 87 percent white. Today, whites are less than 49 percent of the population (countywide.) And this isn't East Bumphuck. This is the second most populous county in Georgia... and there are over 150 counties in this state.

Over the last four decades, there have been a host of reasons why black people flood places like this. But, make no mistake I am one of those people that will work some jobs that only black people get. Insofar as your generalization, here is my latest experience:

I went to Kaiser Medical a few weeks ago. In the waiting area I was in, I was the only white guy. There were approximately 25 people in that area. A lady comes out of an office and asks those who were there for a job opening to come inside. When it was over, only three of us remained to see a doctor. ALL of those applying for the job (s) at Kaiser were black. Those aren't low wage jobs.

I've been going to that facility for over ten years. It is a 24 / 7 operation. In all that time, I've only know four doctors to be white Americans and maybe six foreign born whites. We're talking a facility that is like a small hospital!

Nobody notices when a company locks out whites. IF you complain, you will be stigmatized as a racist.

Don't know how that plays into this discussion except that big business will continue to hire non-whites, pay them crap wages, and the whites won't do anything constructive to change the bottom line.

I never said non-whites don't apply for better paying jobs, I said they are just about the only people that will accept lower paying jobs. Many whites will not accept those jobs because their cost of living is usually higher. Apartments in my suburb are twice the cost of inner-city apartments, and yes, I live in a mostly black community. But the blacks that live in this suburb couldn't afford to take those jobs either unless they are on some kind of social program.

 

[Papageorgio]

Why? Because somebody has to pay for those benefits, and that somebody is the consumer. Then the consumer has to consider foreign cars that are competitively priced, but better built with a much better warranty like Toyota gives you.

But one more time... Japanese Auto Workers get paid the same as US auto workers and their union benefits are even better... Meanwhile, the CEO's don't make the obscene amounts AMericans do.

It's just like that widget scenario I posted earlier. And as my former mechanic told me, Toyota and other Japanese car makers put their money in quality parts and engineering while American companies put their money into union wages and benefits. So when you buy a car, your money can go to early employee retirements. When I buy a car, my money is going into the car I'm buying.

Well, your mechanic is kind of a moron. Japanese workers get just as good of wages as Americans, and their benefits are pretty impressive. The ONLY difference is that - wait for it - Japan has single payer health care and they are paying less for that than we do.

Is that why Toyota closed their only US union shop in 2009 and sent the work to non-union shops throughout America? Is that because they love the union?

It seems Toyota has lots of issues, Toyota: Corporate Rap Sheet | Corporate Research Project

It also seems that the US pays more than Japan does per hour. Hmmm....
Average Houry Rate for Auto Workers in Select Countries | TopForeignStocks.com

Looks like Japan lags behind the US. by almost $9 an hour, which is also below the liberals $15 per hour minimum wage.

That was clever, buddy, you tried to list ALL Labor costs instead of auto worker costs...

Here's the actual chart of what manufacturing compensation is. Please note the US is well below Germany aand only slightly ahead of Japan.

Do you have a link that takes us to the story, like I have? It is also looking like it is taking in all manufacturing and not just the auto industry. We were talking strictly the auto industry.

 

[buckeye45_73]

View attachment 164037

Even McDonald's acknowledges that their business was intended for children.
Holding businesses that are created with the employment of kids & college students responsible for the poor choices people make in life is wrong. If you're in your mid to late 20's or higher & working for minimum wage you have no one to blame but yourself. You're poor choices should not result in a 10.00 Big Mac or 4 dollar fry.

No shit, to the democrats, work is slavery....it's horrible and it shouldn't be tolerated!

 

[Papageorgio]

I agree with you, joe made the statement that the Japanese autoworker made as much as the American worker, and if the benefits were added they’d make more and its not even close.

actually, they are making just as much as we do.

also, Japan has a lower percentage of its population engaged in "low-wage" labor.

Actually, you haven’t shown the link and it looks like your chart is ALL manufacturing not just the auto industry as we were talking.

 

[buckeye45_73]

View attachment 164037

Even McDonald's acknowledges that their business was intended for children.
Holding businesses that are created with the employment of kids & college students responsible for the poor choices people make in life is wrong. If you're in your mid to late 20's or higher & working for minimum wage you have no one to blame but yourself. You're poor choices should not result in a 10.00 Big Mac or 4 dollar fry.

Kids have been shut out of these jobs by illegal aliens.

Even the illegals know that agribusiness pays more..or construction...

As they should, it's much harder work......I'm not sure of your point?

 

[Humorme]

That same government could put laws in place mandating $15 per hour minimums. Are you really this dense or are you playing a game?

What's dense about telling the truth? We DO have customers that replaced their all white crew with blacks because they lowered their pay scale. It's perfectly legal too!

I'm definitely not talking about that. What do you find wrong with an employer hiring the person they see fit for the job? Blacks get picked over whites because the squeaky wheel gets the grease... and they are the squeakiest of the bunch.

Whites don't work because you have 20, 30, 40 and beyond whites living with mommy, receiving welfare/ Socialist Security / etc. and an allowance from the their parents not to work.

And you don't think you have that with black people? Think again. Trust me, I live in a black community.

It's hard to figure out what you're talking about half the time; not just with me, but many others here apparently.

Blacks work for lower wages because the cost of living in inner-cities are lower. A three bedroom apartment in the inner-city can cost them $350.00 a month while in the white burbs, the same kind of apartment costs $900.00 a month or more.

Plus it's less of a race issue than a cost of living issue. For instance I make deliveries in the sticks. All white communities usually with lower paying jobs. However the cost of living in the country is much lower than in the city and suburbs. People can get along just fine on lower wages for that reason, and people in the country have no problem working 50 to 60 hours a week.

The reason people don't understand me is that I am neither left or right. Most of the posters on this thread seem to only want an angle by which to flame someone. I've told them: it's largely because they want to get in an argument, but are too much of a coward to go try their insults in public.

If I see that the left has a point, I admit to it. If the right makes a point, I will agree with them. That does not mean that I agree with their solutions.

I live in a town that, in 1980 was 87 percent white. Today, whites are less than 49 percent of the population (countywide.) And this isn't East Bumphuck. This is the second most populous county in Georgia... and there are over 150 counties in this state.

Over the last four decades, there have been a host of reasons why black people flood places like this. But, make no mistake I am one of those people that will work some jobs that only black people get. Insofar as your generalization, here is my latest experience:

I went to Kaiser Medical a few weeks ago. In the waiting area I was in, I was the only white guy. There were approximately 25 people in that area. A lady comes out of an office and asks those who were there for a job opening to come inside. When it was over, only three of us remained to see a doctor. ALL of those applying for the job (s) at Kaiser were black. Those aren't low wage jobs.

I've been going to that facility for over ten years. It is a 24 / 7 operation. In all that time, I've only know four doctors to be white Americans and maybe six foreign born whites. We're talking a facility that is like a small hospital!

Nobody notices when a company locks out whites. IF you complain, you will be stigmatized as a racist.

Don't know how that plays into this discussion except that big business will continue to hire non-whites, pay them crap wages, and the whites won't do anything constructive to change the bottom line.

What can we do to change the bottom line?

Being that we just gave big business an unearned permanent tax break, I'll be damned if I know the answer. Rest assured, the masses will retaliate and the next time we get a liberal Congress, I suspect they will attempt to resolve this issue with more socialism.

Honestly, I'm thinking this country is headed for internal conflict.

 

[Papageorgio]

5th/3rd Bank is going to raise the minimum starting pay to $15 per hour because of the tax cuts. Many companies are going to increase infrastructure and donations to charities.

Looks like this tax cut will help lefties get their higher wages.

 

[Skull Pilot]

what?

Are you too good to eat oatmeal?
Are you too good to eat what are staple foods all over the world?

I eat rice and beans quite often and no one gives a shit that I do

It must be sad to be so dependent on what others think of you that you can't make your own decisions

Wasn't my point at all.

People should not be forced to eat oatmeal because they can't afford meat, fruit and vegetables.

Let them eat Oatmeal! OH FUCK!

You are an idiot.


I gave you a grocery list that had plenty of money left over to include fruits and vegetables you can't even add and subtract well enough to see that

 

[Humorme]

5th/3rd Bank is going to raise the minimum starting pay to $15 per hour because of the tax cuts. Many companies are going to increase infrastructure and donations to charities.

Looks like this tax cut will help lefties get their higher wages.

Here is the real issue:

While wages will go up, so will pricing structures. It's a smoke and mirrors show. It should appease the left and they will be fat and happy when the the next presidential election comes around. And then, during the term of the president that follows Trump, the individual tax cuts die and the left will take the blame for the downfall of the American worker. It's a brilliant strategy, but it doesn't fix anything for those who have to work for a living.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

But companies don't hire people to provide a paycheck for the worker and his (or her) families. Companies hire people to perform work they need.

Like I said earlier, if you need your transmission rebuilt and get three estimates, you don't choose the highest one, you choose the lowest one. It's not your concern if the mechanic or the business are making enough to provide for their families. That's their problem. Your problem is that you need your transmission rebuilt for the lowest cost you can get.

Yeah, you see, the problem with that is if the lowest guy uses crappy materials and poor workmanship, you are kind of buying yourself a bigger problem.

I mean, I had an alternator replaced by the "Cheap guy". It was hilarious when my engine caught on fire!

If the fire had anything to do with the alternator your mechanic put in, he was liable for the repairs or replacement of your vehicle. However I find that very unlikely since all the alternator does is create electricity, and there is virtually only one way to hook it up.

 

[beagle9]

Businesses should be financially responsible for their employees families.

Why? What happened to personal responsibility? Did the business hire the family?

If you want hardworking loyal employees you must give them what they need to match their priorities in return. They don't work for you because they love dealing with your asshole customers. They don't work for you because they love the company. They work for you because they need that paycheck to provide for their families.

But companies don't hire people to provide a paycheck for the worker and his (or her) families. Companies hire people to perform work they need.

Like I said earlier, if you need your transmission rebuilt and get three estimates, you don't choose the highest one, you choose the lowest one. It's not your concern if the mechanic or the business are making enough to provide for their families. That's their problem. Your problem is that you need work done for the lowest price you can get.

. Agree, but you know what the old saying is right ?? "You get what you pay for" ... Then you end up paying the better shop just to do the job over again. Ever had regrets Ray ? It's a hard learning, but a good one.

 

[Cecilie1200]

There are things society can do. When parents are enabling their kids and the taxpayers are left holding the bag, you have an addressable situation. Since we're both agreed, when parents are aiding in this kind of destructive behavior, we should put the proposal out there to make it a crime wherein we label it abuse of some sort or another.

At the other end of the spectrum, we can do something when people get incarcerated by taking that opportunity to give those dependent upon the system the ability to become self sufficient.

All that talk about losing liberties, yet here you are advocating more laws that will remove a parents liberty to help their own child and increase the size of govt. SMFH

You are nothing more than a libertarian socialist.

Which means a Socialist.

Libertarians are Capitalists.

Since you pretend to have a monopoly on the understanding of socialism, one wonders if you are the consummate socialist.

I have no need of pretense as I posses something you do not, knowledge and an education.

While you eschewed Dr. Rothbard's brilliant book, I have read it, along with "the General Theory" and "Das Kapital." You have read none of these. You've not read "Capitalism and Freedom". You don't know who wrote these books or why they matter.

I've read more books than you've ever looked at. I have one of the largest private libraries in this state. What can we say though? You are a legend in your own mind.

Man has tried his theories for a number of years and the standard fare isn't serving him well. It's time to try something that hasn't been tried. BTW, I haven't eschewed anybody's work. I'm simply thinking outside the box. You should try it and quit being a troll and a dumb ass.

You have "one of the largest private libraries in the state" and you've never been introduced to the fact that there's nothing new under the sun? I'm really skeptical that your "thinking outside the box" is coming up with something brand-new and never-tried.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I haven't slogged through all 55 pages of this one, but one question I would ask is whether those who advocate a 15 dollar minimum wage have considered the effect on SMALL business? All this talk about McDonalds ignores the fact that local coffee shops and independent retailers will also have to pay more, and who do you think will be able to weather this increase more easily -- the giant companies or the small guy trying to eke out a living?

Have any of those wanting to stick it to the man figured out that in sticking it to the man, they are actually helping to remove the alternatives TO the man? A large increase in wages is going to hurt the little guy first, and as more little guys go under, it will be these large corporations who will enjoy an increased share of the spending dollar.

Therein lies the rub. Major corporations can (most of the time) afford to pay their employees better wages. Most of my responses have been aimed at jobs that pay more than federal minimum wage, but less than poverty wages. Warehouse jobs came to mind, but damn, I saw robots load a tractor trailer a couple of weeks ago and thought, there is another job that won't be here in ten years.

Back to the minimum wage:

Some places cannot pay their workers $15 an hour. Subway, for example, does not have that amount of business at one location that they can pay $15 an hour. IF a Subway paid $15 an hour, they would have to raise a meal by 50 cents compared to MickeyDs having to raise their meals by 10 cents.

It's definitely a challenge. If laws are written so that big corporations have to pay more and small business is exempted (say companies with less than a dozen employees), then big business rebels.

If Subway raises their prices to meet the wage demands, they price themselves out of the market.

So glad you've generously figured out a way to write laws telling people how to live their private lives and spend their money. No arrogance at all implied in believing that you alone are wiser than hundreds of millions of people making voluntary transactions every day.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Republicans clearly don't understand that skills need to be developed. You aren't born with them.

So as long as the GOP blocks education and job training, we will never have the qualified workers we need. Without them, our GDP will never increase. But if they had an education, they would know that and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Explain to me how someone who can't figure out how to get an education and job training is going to have enough on the ball to be a good employee.

Is there anything in the world that you don't think people are too helpless to do for themselves, and desperately need Momma Government to do for them?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Businesses should be financially responsible for their employees families.

Why? What happened to personal responsibility? Did the business hire the family?

If you want hardworking loyal employees you must give them what they need to match their priorities in return. They don't work for you because they love dealing with your asshole customers. They don't work for you because they love the company. They work for you because they need that paycheck to provide for their families.

But companies don't hire people to provide a paycheck for the worker and his (or her) families. Companies hire people to perform work they need.

Like I said earlier, if you need your transmission rebuilt and get three estimates, you don't choose the highest one, you choose the lowest one. It's not your concern if the mechanic or the business are making enough to provide for their families. That's their problem. Your problem is that you need work done for the lowest price you can get.

. Agree, but you know what the old saying is right ?? "You get what you pay for" ... Then you end up paying the better shop just to do the job over again. Ever had regrets Ray ? It's a hard learning, but a good one.

Oh, I've had plenty of regrets. But my regrets came from paying the lowest cost to the highest cost. Higher costs doesn't always mean better work. It could mean somebody is in the position to rip you off and your anxiousness or laziness to look into the matter is the advantage of the person ripping you off.

After a house fire, my cousin took the job of rebuilding. He is a remodeler by trade, but because he contracted the job for the insurance company, he was in charge of hiring the professionals to do the work he wasn't certified to do.

He brought in these electricians that were a complete joke. During the rebuilding, I asked that the electricians put in some new outlets upstairs since it would be an easy job given the walls were ripped out downstairs. They charged me $100.00 per outlet. Two of the outlets I requested serviced two different rooms where the feed came from the same wall. In other words one line to make two outlets, and they still charged me $100.00 each.

After the job was done and I moved back home, I came home after work one day and noticed wires sticking out from the wall of the front porch. I called my cousin and told him the idiots forgot to install the outlet in the front porch. He called me back and said the electricians did install that outlet. I said "WTF do you think I'm doing, making this all up???" The next day I came home, the outlet was magically there.

Doing some work later on that required me to cut the power, I found out they mislabeled every single breaker. They couldn't even do that the right way.

 

[Humorme]

All that talk about losing liberties, yet here you are advocating more laws that will remove a parents liberty to help their own child and increase the size of govt. SMFH

You are nothing more than a libertarian socialist.

Which means a Socialist.

Libertarians are Capitalists.

Since you pretend to have a monopoly on the understanding of socialism, one wonders if you are the consummate socialist.

I have no need of pretense as I posses something you do not, knowledge and an education.

While you eschewed Dr. Rothbard's brilliant book, I have read it, along with "the General Theory" and "Das Kapital." You have read none of these. You've not read "Capitalism and Freedom". You don't know who wrote these books or why they matter.

I've read more books than you've ever looked at. I have one of the largest private libraries in this state. What can we say though? You are a legend in your own mind.

Man has tried his theories for a number of years and the standard fare isn't serving him well. It's time to try something that hasn't been tried. BTW, I haven't eschewed anybody's work. I'm simply thinking outside the box. You should try it and quit being a troll and a dumb ass.

You have "one of the largest private libraries in the state" and you've never been introduced to the fact that there's nothing new under the sun? I'm really skeptical that your "thinking outside the box" is coming up with something brand-new and never-tried.

I've read that Bible verse many times. When was the last time you saw the proposals I put on the table tried in our constitutional Republic?

 

[Slyhunter]

Businesses should be financially responsible for their employees families.

Why? What happened to personal responsibility? Did the business hire the family?

If you want hardworking loyal employees you must give them what they need to match their priorities in return. They don't work for you because they love dealing with your asshole customers. They don't work for you because they love the company. They work for you because they need that paycheck to provide for their families.

But companies don't hire people to provide a paycheck for the worker and his (or her) families. Companies hire people to perform work they need.

Like I said earlier, if you need your transmission rebuilt and get three estimates, you don't choose the highest one, you choose the lowest one. It's not your concern if the mechanic or the business are making enough to provide for their families. That's their problem. Your problem is that you need work done for the lowest price you can get.

Things change.
Now employers must pay their employers a decent wage if they want their employees to vote for Trump again. If they want to keep their low taxes they must appease their employees.
If Employers want employees they must give employees what they want not just the minimum they can get away with or those employees will go to work for someone else. Seal the border, force the employers to care about the American worker.