Top 8% Own 85%

[Hutch Starskey]

Do they really? Through suppressing employee wages? Shipping jobs overseas? Importing foreign workers?

However they do it, it's still their money whether you like it or not.

And it is slowing our economy which hurts us all.

What's slowing our economy are the illegals and foreigners that come here and work for lower wages. What's slowing our economy is that we have over 93 million Americans of working age that are not working nor looking for a job. What's slowing our economy is government and their regulations. But the biggest thing slowing down our economy is that we consumers will not support American workers. We will buy the cheapest of just about anything to save a buck.

Talk radio nonsense.

Yes, of course. It's always talk radio or Fox News, isn't it???

Do you ever look back to see what I was actually responding to?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

However they do it, it's still their money whether you like it or not.

And it is slowing our economy which hurts us all.

What's slowing our economy are the illegals and foreigners that come here and work for lower wages. What's slowing our economy is that we have over 93 million Americans of working age that are not working nor looking for a job. What's slowing our economy is government and their regulations. But the biggest thing slowing down our economy is that we consumers will not support American workers. We will buy the cheapest of just about anything to save a buck.

Wages are stagnant, of course people are cheap. An economy slows when there is too much inequality.

An economy slows when there is too much inequality.

How do you fix inequality? Higher taxes? More regulation?

Give more power to the workers. We are definitely hurting from the decline of unions. We need to better police companies to stop the collusion. I would actually decrease Corp taxes in return for higher wages and benefits for employees. I think we need to stop importing workers and some well placed tariffs might help. Maybe raise minimum wage, though I prefer the other things mentioned.

Okay, so you institute a tariff and increase minimum wage. Who do you think ultimately pays these increases in prices?

 

[Brain357]

Give more power to the workers. We are definitely hurting from the decline of unions. We need to better police companies to stop the collusion. I would actually decrease Corp taxes in return for higher wages and benefits for employees. I think we need to stop importing workers and some well placed tariffs might help. Maybe raise minimum wage, though I prefer the other things mentioned.

We are definitely hurting from the decline of unions.

Unions are the worst. We need to outlaw government unions.

I think we need to stop importing workers and some well placed tariffs might help.

Boot 15 million illegals, wages will rise. Unemployment will tank.
Tariffs just help the connected. Like the Fanjul family benefits from sugar tariffs.

Maybe raise minimum wage,

Boot the illegals, enforce E-Verify, companies would have to pay more than the minimum to get workers.

Unions the worst? You must be joking. The decline in unions has only been bad for us.

Bunch of thugs.

Who get workers better wages, we need more of that.

No, we don't need more thug unions.

That funny cause wages are stagnant. Yes we do need them.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

However they do it, it's still their money whether you like it or not.

And it is slowing our economy which hurts us all.

What's slowing our economy are the illegals and foreigners that come here and work for lower wages. What's slowing our economy is that we have over 93 million Americans of working age that are not working nor looking for a job. What's slowing our economy is government and their regulations. But the biggest thing slowing down our economy is that we consumers will not support American workers. We will buy the cheapest of just about anything to save a buck.

Talk radio nonsense.

Yes, of course. It's always talk radio or Fox News, isn't it???

Do you ever look back to see what I was actually responding to?

Yes I do, every time.

 

[Brain357]

And it is slowing our economy which hurts us all.

What's slowing our economy are the illegals and foreigners that come here and work for lower wages. What's slowing our economy is that we have over 93 million Americans of working age that are not working nor looking for a job. What's slowing our economy is government and their regulations. But the biggest thing slowing down our economy is that we consumers will not support American workers. We will buy the cheapest of just about anything to save a buck.

Wages are stagnant, of course people are cheap. An economy slows when there is too much inequality.

An economy slows when there is too much inequality.

How do you fix inequality? Higher taxes? More regulation?

Give more power to the workers. We are definitely hurting from the decline of unions. We need to better police companies to stop the collusion. I would actually decrease Corp taxes in return for higher wages and benefits for employees. I think we need to stop importing workers and some well placed tariffs might help. Maybe raise minimum wage, though I prefer the other things mentioned.

Okay, so you institute a tariff and increase minimum wage. Who do you think ultimately pays these increases in prices?

So you grab on two of the options I mentioned? For a tariff I would first put one on services like IT, accounting and CS. Those are jobs that never should have left. Consumers pay for them, but when wages go up they can afford it.

 

[Hutch Starskey]

The "system" is rigged, for the wealthiest to stay the wealthiest... if you can not recognize this, then you are blind, and willfully ignorant.

One of the greatest things about being in a country like this is you can be anybody you want.

If you don't need much, are lazy, and don't care about your future, you can not work and be poor.

If you have more ambition, you can be middle-class. That means you have to go go work everyday however. You probably need a skill or trade to get by, but it can be done.

If you want to live better than middle-class, then you need to open up your own business, get an advanced education, and work night and day.

And of course, if you want to be wealthy, you must do some of the things above and more, such as invest every spare dollar and dime you have. You will need to give up all those extras and focus on money only. You need to educate yourself on the stock market, real estate, the commodities market, foreign markets and so on.

But it's all up to the individual and you have to start very early in life.

Completely naive and poorly thought out. While everyone can certainly improve their lot in life, it's ridiculous to think that everyone has an equal opportunity to earn even an above average level of success let alone make it into the highest percentiles. There simply aren't enough high paying positions for that to even be possible. The idea that if people only worked hard and were diligent enough, they too could hit it big is foolish. The higher the income the more exclusive the club becomes. Why is that? Because everyone can't be a chief, the world needs Indians and a lot of them. I'm fine with that dynamic. It's the way the Indians are treated, often times unfairly and for the benefit of the chiefs, that is the problem.

So who says you have to be part of that tribe?

It's the same old argument about CEO's. If you think CEO's get paid too much money and don't do any work, why don't you become a CEO yourself? Of course the answer is because it's not that easy. It takes a lot of education, a lot of experience, a lot of getting to know politicians, a lot of getting fired from jobs, a lot of packing up your bags and traveling.

I have several people in my family that don't work for anybody. One Uncle (now retired) was a carpenter. Another Uncle ran his own remodeling business. Two of my cousins own their own remodeling business. My one cousin is an artist and runs his own business.

If you really believe that employers are taking advantage of you, then the solution is to simply work for yourself. Take up a construction trade. Learn how to be a plumber, an electrician, a bricklayer. Take courses in HVAC and work for yourself. There are a lot of things you can do besides work for somebody else.

I said nothing about CEO's. I never said it impacted me personally either. You don't read so well. Do you believe that everyone in America can earn 100K if they wanted to?

No, I don't. But it's like my father taught me many years ago. "Ray, anybody can make money; an idiot makes money. But it's less of how much you earn than how much you can keep. Instead of sending your money out to buy silly shit for you, it's better to send your money out to work for you instead."

As always, Dad was correct. I've known very well-to-do people in my life, and regardless of how much they have, it's never enough. Money is an obsession with them. It's the main focus of their life from the time they wake up until the time they go to bed.

The thing is I get in on these types of discussions when I can. What I found is that most of the people that complain about what other people have never made a serious investment in their lives. Oh sure, some may have an IRA from work or something if not a personal one, or they may have bought a house which will increase in value, but none that I've talked to ever made any serious investments in their lives; take every dime they've been able to save and just put it towards growth.

So if you agree that everyone can't make 100K than your plan of self actualization is really nonsense. You leave quite a large percentage of people out in the cold without prospects. Do you believe people's pay should buy more or less than it did 40 years ago? Shouldn't we, in America, be moving forward and not back? Your anecdotes from dear old dad don't go far enough.

 

[initforme]

You can give me the stats you want. I think our system is the best out there bar none. But I also am well versed on the fallacies that

1). If you are willing to work hard and sacrifice you can be wealthy....UNTRUE. A lot of people have very strong work ethics....they are barely making it.

2) you can become wealthy starting at the bottom. TRUE. But only a miniscule percentage...less than 1 percent will do that.

3). It takes a lot of money to make a lot of money...TRUE...VERY TRUE

4). I remember my dad many moons ago telling me if you can simply survive this mess that's the american dream. TRUE.

5) capitalism is based on those who have acquired much wealth. I
INDISPUTABLE.

 

[Hutch Starskey]

And it is slowing our economy which hurts us all.

What's slowing our economy are the illegals and foreigners that come here and work for lower wages. What's slowing our economy is that we have over 93 million Americans of working age that are not working nor looking for a job. What's slowing our economy is government and their regulations. But the biggest thing slowing down our economy is that we consumers will not support American workers. We will buy the cheapest of just about anything to save a buck.

Talk radio nonsense.

Yes, of course. It's always talk radio or Fox News, isn't it???

Do you ever look back to see what I was actually responding to?

Yes I do, every time.

Not likely.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Only welfare people "take" money. People who have more earn money.

Do they really? Through suppressing employee wages? Shipping jobs overseas? Importing foreign workers?

However they do it, it's still their money whether you like it or not.

And it is slowing our economy which hurts us all.

What's slowing our economy are the illegals and foreigners that come here and work for lower wages. What's slowing our economy is that we have over 93 million Americans of working age that are not working nor looking for a job. What's slowing our economy is government and their regulations. But the biggest thing slowing down our economy is that we consumers will not support American workers. We will buy the cheapest of just about anything to save a buck.

Wages are stagnant, of course people are cheap. An economy slows when there is too much inequality.

Wrong. People have been cheap for a very long time through good times and bad. It's just nature of the American I guess.

I remember years ago when they introduced self-serve gasoline pumps. Prior to that, you just sat in your car and an attendant would take care of everything. He would check the air pressure in your tires, wash your windows, check under the hood for oil and washer fluid levels.

Then somebody came out with a great idea: instead of paying mechanics to stop working on cars to pump gas, have the people pump their own gasoline and offer them a discount!

It worked very well. For most places, they only had one island or one pump for self-serve. Before you knew it, people were waiting in line to use that pump. So they turned more of their pumps into self-serve. Fast forward to today, there are no gasoline pumps that aren't self-serve. We all want cheaper gasoline even if it means taking away the job of a fellow American.

Walmart didn't become the success it has by forcing people into their stores. Walmart offers the lowest price and a good selection.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

One of the greatest things about being in a country like this is you can be anybody you want.

If you don't need much, are lazy, and don't care about your future, you can not work and be poor.

If you have more ambition, you can be middle-class. That means you have to go go work everyday however. You probably need a skill or trade to get by, but it can be done.

If you want to live better than middle-class, then you need to open up your own business, get an advanced education, and work night and day.

And of course, if you want to be wealthy, you must do some of the things above and more, such as invest every spare dollar and dime you have. You will need to give up all those extras and focus on money only. You need to educate yourself on the stock market, real estate, the commodities market, foreign markets and so on.

But it's all up to the individual and you have to start very early in life.

Completely naive and poorly thought out. While everyone can certainly improve their lot in life, it's ridiculous to think that everyone has an equal opportunity to earn even an above average level of success let alone make it into the highest percentiles. There simply aren't enough high paying positions for that to even be possible. The idea that if people only worked hard and were diligent enough, they too could hit it big is foolish. The higher the income the more exclusive the club becomes. Why is that? Because everyone can't be a chief, the world needs Indians and a lot of them. I'm fine with that dynamic. It's the way the Indians are treated, often times unfairly and for the benefit of the chiefs, that is the problem.

So who says you have to be part of that tribe?

It's the same old argument about CEO's. If you think CEO's get paid too much money and don't do any work, why don't you become a CEO yourself? Of course the answer is because it's not that easy. It takes a lot of education, a lot of experience, a lot of getting to know politicians, a lot of getting fired from jobs, a lot of packing up your bags and traveling.

I have several people in my family that don't work for anybody. One Uncle (now retired) was a carpenter. Another Uncle ran his own remodeling business. Two of my cousins own their own remodeling business. My one cousin is an artist and runs his own business.

If you really believe that employers are taking advantage of you, then the solution is to simply work for yourself. Take up a construction trade. Learn how to be a plumber, an electrician, a bricklayer. Take courses in HVAC and work for yourself. There are a lot of things you can do besides work for somebody else.

I said nothing about CEO's. I never said it impacted me personally either. You don't read so well. Do you believe that everyone in America can earn 100K if they wanted to?

No, I don't. But it's like my father taught me many years ago. "Ray, anybody can make money; an idiot makes money. But it's less of how much you earn than how much you can keep. Instead of sending your money out to buy silly shit for you, it's better to send your money out to work for you instead."

As always, Dad was correct. I've known very well-to-do people in my life, and regardless of how much they have, it's never enough. Money is an obsession with them. It's the main focus of their life from the time they wake up until the time they go to bed.

The thing is I get in on these types of discussions when I can. What I found is that most of the people that complain about what other people have never made a serious investment in their lives. Oh sure, some may have an IRA from work or something if not a personal one, or they may have bought a house which will increase in value, but none that I've talked to ever made any serious investments in their lives; take every dime they've been able to save and just put it towards growth.

So if you agree that everyone can't make 100K than your plan of self actualization is really nonsense. You leave quite a large percentage of people out in the cold without prospects. Do you believe people's pay should buy more or less than it did 40 years ago? Shouldn't we, in America, be moving forward and not back? Your anecdotes from dear old dad don't go far enough.

No, not at all.

I remember how people bashed Hillary years ago because she invested $1,000 and turned that into $100,000 in one year. I'm one of the few people that stuck up for her on that story.

Why? Because I used to invest in commodities. What I learned is that those kinds of things happen all the time in that market. I played it for years and enjoyed the hell out of myself.

High risk? You bet. Before you can even open up an account, you need to sign about 20 papers saying you understand the risk.

How much can you make? Well one oil contract could cost you around $5,000. But every time the price of oil changes in your direction by one dollar, you make $1,000. So what if oil goes up by $20.00 a barrel in a half-years time? You do the math.

So how did Hillary do it? When you make money on your commodity, you don't have to sell it in order to access your earnings. You can use it as cash. So let's say that I bought an oil contract and it went up five dollars. I made $5,000. But what I can do is use that money to buy another contract. Now I have two, and it does the same thing. Because I have two oil contracts and it went up by five dollars a barrel, I made $10,000. Now I can buy two more contracts!

This is how Hilary did it and many others in that market. Can this be accomplished by the average working slug? You bet, but again, it's how much you are willing to risk your money.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

What's slowing our economy are the illegals and foreigners that come here and work for lower wages. What's slowing our economy is that we have over 93 million Americans of working age that are not working nor looking for a job. What's slowing our economy is government and their regulations. But the biggest thing slowing down our economy is that we consumers will not support American workers. We will buy the cheapest of just about anything to save a buck.

Wages are stagnant, of course people are cheap. An economy slows when there is too much inequality.

An economy slows when there is too much inequality.

How do you fix inequality? Higher taxes? More regulation?

Give more power to the workers. We are definitely hurting from the decline of unions. We need to better police companies to stop the collusion. I would actually decrease Corp taxes in return for higher wages and benefits for employees. I think we need to stop importing workers and some well placed tariffs might help. Maybe raise minimum wage, though I prefer the other things mentioned.

Okay, so you institute a tariff and increase minimum wage. Who do you think ultimately pays these increases in prices?

So you grab on two of the options I mentioned? For a tariff I would first put one on services like IT, accounting and CS. Those are jobs that never should have left. Consumers pay for them, but when wages go up they can afford it.

Bottom line is that ultimately, we little people pay for those costs to a company.

Create a tariff on widgets. When I buy a widget, that cost is included, so ultimately, I am paying that tariff--not the company. Tax the rich--tax the businesses!!!! Okay, so we tax the people that make the flooring I plan on buying. Don't you think those taxes are included in that product when I buy it?

That's the way it all works unfortunately, and no law in the world can change that in a free country.

WE NEED CLEANER AIR!!! Okay, so now we have it. How? Because they forced truck manufacturers to put all kinds of pollution crap in these tractors and trucks. We now have to use a product called Diesel Exhaust Fluid, or DEF for short.

DEF is a separate container that squirts this crap into the exhaust pipe to make it burn cleaner. Not only that, but during the Bush years, they forced diesel fuel manufacturers to produce lower sulfur diesel fuel. Until now, diesel fuel was about a dollar a gallon more expensive than gasoline.

Trucks went up in price--about $10,000 more for a newer truck than before those pollution standards came out. And any diesel mechanic can testify that when these trucks have problems, it usually has to do with some pollution gadget going haywire, and these problems happen all the time.

Okay, so we have cleaner air and those big bad transportation companies have to pay for it!!! Wrong. Guess what my employer had to do to cover these additional expenses such as increase costs for diesel fuel, DEF fluid, higher prices for trucks, towing service when these trucks break down all the time, the repair shop to fix all this crap?


That's right, he greatly increased his prices to our customers who make our products. Those customers who make our products increase the cost of those products that you and I buy in the store every time we go shopping.

But what the hell, can't you just smell how much cleaner the air is????

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

If only we had more union thugs, eh? Durr.

Yes. If you consider that 70% of the GDP is consumer spending, a component of which is wages and 90% of consumers make less than 100k/ yr and as shown on my previous graph, wages are 44% of GDP while corporate profits are 12.5% of GDP, then yes, higher wages due to higher union membership is a boon to economic growth.

If you consider that 70% of the GDP is consumer spending

I've always hated that misuse of statistics. GDP is production, not spending.

wages are 44% of GDP while corporate profits are 12.5% of GDP,

If we add up wages, profits and consumer spending, we're up to 126.5% of GDP.
How'd we manage that?

higher wages due to higher union membership is a boon to economic growth

Government union employees have high wages and I think they're a major detriment to economic growth.

You don't understand much ,do you?

I've always hated that misuse of statistics. GDP is production, not spending.

You're wrong.
View attachment 70712

If we add up wages, profits and consumer spending, we're up to 126.5% of GDP.
How'd we manage that?

Because you have no critical thinking skills.
I stated that wages were a component of consumer spending.

Government union employees have high wages and I think they're a major detriment to economic growth.

Well, you're wrong again.




BTW, that's how you quote someone.

You don't understand much ,do you?

Correct, I don't understand why people talk about spending when Gross Domestic Product is about production.

I stated that wages were a component of consumer spending.

Okay, so 44% of GDP is wages but 70% of GDP is consumer spending.
Where are consumers getting an extra 26% of GDP to spend?

Government union employees have high wages and I think they're a major detriment to economic growth.

Well, you're wrong again.

Higher wages for government workers, to improve economic growth!
Sounds like a winning political slogan!!!
Maybe you should run for office?

You're a simple one aren't you?

Correct, I don't understand why people talk about spending when Gross Domestic Product is about production.

You can clear this up quite easily by linking to something that explains your point. Or we can go around a third time.

Okay, so 44% of GDP is wages but 70% of GDP is consumer spending.
Where are consumers getting an extra 26% of GDP to spend?

Again. You're lost. I named one component, the largest component. I made my point. Educate yourself on the rest.

Higher wages for government workers, to improve economic growth!
Sounds like a winning political slogan!!!
Maybe you should run for office?

Look at my graph again. Govt spending is a bigger bang for my buck when you look at the percentage of GDP it affects. Both consumer and govt spending are bumped with govt jobs. That's why economists called for more govt spending in the early days of the recession and throughout the recovery.

Again. You're lost. I named one component, the largest component. I made my point. Educate yourself on the rest.

You named several components. Consumer spending was 70% but wages were only 44%.
How can consumers spend more than their wages?

Govt spending is a bigger bang for my buck when you look at the percentage of GDP it affects.

So we should take money from consumer spending and give it government. For the bigger bang.

Both consumer and govt spending are bumped with govt jobs.

Hire 10 million more high paid government workers, what could go wrong?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

We are definitely hurting from the decline of unions.

Unions are the worst. We need to outlaw government unions.

I think we need to stop importing workers and some well placed tariffs might help.

Boot 15 million illegals, wages will rise. Unemployment will tank.
Tariffs just help the connected. Like the Fanjul family benefits from sugar tariffs.

Maybe raise minimum wage,

Boot the illegals, enforce E-Verify, companies would have to pay more than the minimum to get workers.

The American middle class as well as business both thrived with unions. The decline started with the decline of unions.

View attachment 70708 View attachment 70709

If only we had more union thugs, eh? Durr.

Yes. If you consider that 70% of the GDP is consumer spending, a component of which is wages and 90% of consumers make less than 100k/ yr and as shown on my previous graph, wages are 44% of GDP while corporate profits are 12.5% of GDP, then yes, higher wages due to higher union membership is a boon to economic growth.

If you consider that 70% of the GDP is consumer spending

I've always hated that misuse of statistics. GDP is production, not spending.

wages are 44% of GDP while corporate profits are 12.5% of GDP,

If we add up wages, profits and consumer spending, we're up to 126.5% of GDP.
How'd we manage that?

higher wages due to higher union membership is a boon to economic growth

Government union employees have high wages and I think they're a major detriment to economic growth.

You don't understand much ,do you?

I've always hated that misuse of statistics. GDP is production, not spending.

You're wrong.
View attachment 70712

If we add up wages, profits and consumer spending, we're up to 126.5% of GDP.
How'd we manage that?

Because you have no critical thinking skills.
I stated that wages were a component of consumer spending.

Government union employees have high wages and I think they're a major detriment to economic growth.

Well, you're wrong again.




BTW, that's how you quote someone.

yes, higher wages due to higher union membership is a boon to economic growth

When we increase wages, thanks to unions, that will reduce money available for business investment.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

What's slowing our economy are the illegals and foreigners that come here and work for lower wages. What's slowing our economy is that we have over 93 million Americans of working age that are not working nor looking for a job. What's slowing our economy is government and their regulations. But the biggest thing slowing down our economy is that we consumers will not support American workers. We will buy the cheapest of just about anything to save a buck.

Wages are stagnant, of course people are cheap. An economy slows when there is too much inequality.

An economy slows when there is too much inequality.

How do you fix inequality? Higher taxes? More regulation?

Give more power to the workers. We are definitely hurting from the decline of unions. We need to better police companies to stop the collusion. I would actually decrease Corp taxes in return for higher wages and benefits for employees. I think we need to stop importing workers and some well placed tariffs might help. Maybe raise minimum wage, though I prefer the other things mentioned.

Okay, so you institute a tariff and increase minimum wage. Who do you think ultimately pays these increases in prices?

So you grab on two of the options I mentioned? For a tariff I would first put one on services like IT, accounting and CS. Those are jobs that never should have left. Consumers pay for them, but when wages go up they can afford it.

For a tariff I would first put one on services like IT, accounting and CS.

That's an interesting idea. How would you put a tariff on accounting?

 

[Brain357]

Wages are stagnant, of course people are cheap. An economy slows when there is too much inequality.

An economy slows when there is too much inequality.

How do you fix inequality? Higher taxes? More regulation?

Give more power to the workers. We are definitely hurting from the decline of unions. We need to better police companies to stop the collusion. I would actually decrease Corp taxes in return for higher wages and benefits for employees. I think we need to stop importing workers and some well placed tariffs might help. Maybe raise minimum wage, though I prefer the other things mentioned.

Okay, so you institute a tariff and increase minimum wage. Who do you think ultimately pays these increases in prices?

So you grab on two of the options I mentioned? For a tariff I would first put one on services like IT, accounting and CS. Those are jobs that never should have left. Consumers pay for them, but when wages go up they can afford it.

For a tariff I would first put one on services like IT, accounting and CS.

That's an interesting idea. How would you put a tariff on accounting?

Companies buy accounting services in other countries. Those types of services would be taxed.

 

[Brain357]

Wages are stagnant, of course people are cheap. An economy slows when there is too much inequality.

An economy slows when there is too much inequality.

How do you fix inequality? Higher taxes? More regulation?

Give more power to the workers. We are definitely hurting from the decline of unions. We need to better police companies to stop the collusion. I would actually decrease Corp taxes in return for higher wages and benefits for employees. I think we need to stop importing workers and some well placed tariffs might help. Maybe raise minimum wage, though I prefer the other things mentioned.

Okay, so you institute a tariff and increase minimum wage. Who do you think ultimately pays these increases in prices?

So you grab on two of the options I mentioned? For a tariff I would first put one on services like IT, accounting and CS. Those are jobs that never should have left. Consumers pay for them, but when wages go up they can afford it.

Bottom line is that ultimately, we little people pay for those costs to a company.

Create a tariff on widgets. When I buy a widget, that cost is included, so ultimately, I am paying that tariff--not the company. Tax the rich--tax the businesses!!!! Okay, so we tax the people that make the flooring I plan on buying. Don't you think those taxes are included in that product when I buy it?

That's the way it all works unfortunately, and no law in the world can change that in a free country.

WE NEED CLEANER AIR!!! Okay, so now we have it. How? Because they forced truck manufacturers to put all kinds of pollution crap in these tractors and trucks. We now have to use a product called Diesel Exhaust Fluid, or DEF for short.

DEF is a separate container that squirts this crap into the exhaust pipe to make it burn cleaner. Not only that, but during the Bush years, they forced diesel fuel manufacturers to produce lower sulfur diesel fuel. Until now, diesel fuel was about a dollar a gallon more expensive than gasoline.

Trucks went up in price--about $10,000 more for a newer truck than before those pollution standards came out. And any diesel mechanic can testify that when these trucks have problems, it usually has to do with some pollution gadget going haywire, and these problems happen all the time.

Okay, so we have cleaner air and those big bad transportation companies have to pay for it!!! Wrong. Guess what my employer had to do to cover these additional expenses such as increase costs for diesel fuel, DEF fluid, higher prices for trucks, towing service when these trucks break down all the time, the repair shop to fix all this crap?


That's right, he greatly increased his prices to our customers who make our products. Those customers who make our products increase the cost of those products that you and I buy in the store every time we go shopping.

But what the hell, can't you just smell how much cleaner the air is????

Make it more expensive to import products and the companies will make them here. More jobs here and wages go up.

 

[initforme]

We need consumers to spend a lot less and save more of their money which equals less debt. Pay off existing bills and let companies sit idle.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Completely naive and poorly thought out. While everyone can certainly improve their lot in life, it's ridiculous to think that everyone has an equal opportunity to earn even an above average level of success let alone make it into the highest percentiles. There simply aren't enough high paying positions for that to even be possible. The idea that if people only worked hard and were diligent enough, they too could hit it big is foolish. The higher the income the more exclusive the club becomes. Why is that? Because everyone can't be a chief, the world needs Indians and a lot of them. I'm fine with that dynamic. It's the way the Indians are treated, often times unfairly and for the benefit of the chiefs, that is the problem.

So who says you have to be part of that tribe?

It's the same old argument about CEO's. If you think CEO's get paid too much money and don't do any work, why don't you become a CEO yourself? Of course the answer is because it's not that easy. It takes a lot of education, a lot of experience, a lot of getting to know politicians, a lot of getting fired from jobs, a lot of packing up your bags and traveling.

I have several people in my family that don't work for anybody. One Uncle (now retired) was a carpenter. Another Uncle ran his own remodeling business. Two of my cousins own their own remodeling business. My one cousin is an artist and runs his own business.

If you really believe that employers are taking advantage of you, then the solution is to simply work for yourself. Take up a construction trade. Learn how to be a plumber, an electrician, a bricklayer. Take courses in HVAC and work for yourself. There are a lot of things you can do besides work for somebody else.

I said nothing about CEO's. I never said it impacted me personally either. You don't read so well. Do you believe that everyone in America can earn 100K if they wanted to?

No, I don't. But it's like my father taught me many years ago. "Ray, anybody can make money; an idiot makes money. But it's less of how much you earn than how much you can keep. Instead of sending your money out to buy silly shit for you, it's better to send your money out to work for you instead."

As always, Dad was correct. I've known very well-to-do people in my life, and regardless of how much they have, it's never enough. Money is an obsession with them. It's the main focus of their life from the time they wake up until the time they go to bed.

The thing is I get in on these types of discussions when I can. What I found is that most of the people that complain about what other people have never made a serious investment in their lives. Oh sure, some may have an IRA from work or something if not a personal one, or they may have bought a house which will increase in value, but none that I've talked to ever made any serious investments in their lives; take every dime they've been able to save and just put it towards growth.

So if you agree that everyone can't make 100K than your plan of self actualization is really nonsense. You leave quite a large percentage of people out in the cold without prospects. Do you believe people's pay should buy more or less than it did 40 years ago? Shouldn't we, in America, be moving forward and not back? Your anecdotes from dear old dad don't go far enough.

No, not at all.

I remember how people bashed Hillary years ago because she invested $1,000 and turned that into $100,000 in one year. I'm one of the few people that stuck up for her on that story.

Why? Because I used to invest in commodities. What I learned is that those kinds of things happen all the time in that market. I played it for years and enjoyed the hell out of myself.

High risk? You bet. Before you can even open up an account, you need to sign about 20 papers saying you understand the risk.

How much can you make? Well one oil contract could cost you around $5,000. But every time the price of oil changes in your direction by one dollar, you make $1,000. So what if oil goes up by $20.00 a barrel in a half-years time? You do the math.

So how did Hillary do it? When you make money on your commodity, you don't have to sell it in order to access your earnings. You can use it as cash. So let's say that I bought an oil contract and it went up five dollars. I made $5,000. But what I can do is use that money to buy another contract. Now I have two, and it does the same thing. Because I have two oil contracts and it went up by five dollars a barrel, I made $10,000. Now I can buy two more contracts!

This is how Hilary did it and many others in that market. Can this be accomplished by the average working slug? You bet, but again, it's how much you are willing to risk your money.

I remember how people bashed Hillary years ago because she invested $1,000 and turned that into $100,000 in one year. I'm one of the few people that stuck up for her on that story.

It was a payoff. A bribe.

Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Blair have said that they used Robert L. (Red) Bone, the broker who founded the Springdale office of Refco, a Chicago commodities firm, to execute the trades. But Mr. Bone, who worked at Tyson for 13 years until 1973, insisted in several interviews this month that he has no recollection of ever trading for Mrs. Clinton or talking to her about commodities trades.

Hillary Clinton Turned $1,000 Into $99,540, White House Says

The way it worked, they entered a buy and sell order for cattle futures in the morning.
Did it again in the afternoon.
Back in those days, you could enter orders without specifying the customer account on the trade.
When the cattle prices rose by the end of the day, Hillary's account number was placed on the morning buy and the afternoon sell.
When the cattle prices fell by the end of the day, Hillary's account number was placed on the morning sell and the afternoon buy. Do that enough times and even someone with no commodity knowledge and only $1000 in her account can turn it into ~$100,000.
They sometimes gave her losing trades, to make it look more realistic.

The company that bribed her, Refco, was a bunch of crooks.
There is a theory that they might have been compensated by Tyson for the trades they gave her.

 

[Wry Catcher]

I've never quite figured out how someone making more money then me can diminish my happiness?

Maybe it's just me?

Yeah, it is just you. Myopia does that, try to see panoptically.

No, actually the well adjusted can live happily without being overly wealthy.

I'm sorry, my comment wasn't to question your wealth or happiness - even a homeless person living in a tent can be happy. Focus on the word Panoptic, that is, permitting the viewing of all parts or elements of an issue. We can't assume the 92% are all happy with such an outcome.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

An economy slows when there is too much inequality.

How do you fix inequality? Higher taxes? More regulation?

Give more power to the workers. We are definitely hurting from the decline of unions. We need to better police companies to stop the collusion. I would actually decrease Corp taxes in return for higher wages and benefits for employees. I think we need to stop importing workers and some well placed tariffs might help. Maybe raise minimum wage, though I prefer the other things mentioned.

Okay, so you institute a tariff and increase minimum wage. Who do you think ultimately pays these increases in prices?

So you grab on two of the options I mentioned? For a tariff I would first put one on services like IT, accounting and CS. Those are jobs that never should have left. Consumers pay for them, but when wages go up they can afford it.

For a tariff I would first put one on services like IT, accounting and CS.

That's an interesting idea. How would you put a tariff on accounting?

Companies buy accounting services in other countries. Those types of services would be taxed.

How? You can't tax a crate of accounting when they pull it off a container ship.