Torture, or whatever you want to call it, "justified" by majority

[Coyote]

You left out standing for hours on broken bones...minor details. Some of the guys died. Oops. Some weren't guilty of anything. Too bad.

Double dog dare ya' to answer: if you could save the 80-90 children slaughtered by the savages, would you have acquiesced to the enhanced interrogations?

That's the typical demand (usually posted in the form of a "ticking time bomb" and it is an unanswerable question because in real life (not hypothetical scenarios) - it isn't that clear cut at all.

It's been shown that torture isn't usually necessary to gain good information (Secret WWII camp interrogators say torture wasn t needed - CBS News nor does torture gain useful or accurate information. So if I choose to employ torture on an individual who might (or might not) have knowledge that could help save those children I *might* get useful information but - more likely, given what we've found about torture - I *might not*. In that case - valuable time and resources could be lost chasing a phantom and the children could end up dead anyway.

No I would not since there are other means at my disposal.

Stop tap-dancing: yes or no.

...if you could save the 80-90 children slaughtered by the savages, would you have acquiesced to the enhanced interrogations?

Read my last line - the answer is right there in English.

Now, here is my question and it's a more honest question:
...if you could save the 80-90 children slaughtered by the savages, and information could be gained either with or without torture but you couldn't be sure which would work - would you have acquiesced to torture?

That's not what I asked you.

It's exactly what you asked me. My answer is no.

In trying to dodge the question, you gave an answer with more twists and turns in that post than in Nadia Comaneci's floor routine!

I gave you an answer and I gave you my rationale for it - something lazy people don't like. If you want to reduce torture to simplistic verbal game, feel free to do so but my answer is there quite clearly: no.

I'll answer for you, and use honesty as a basis.
"I hate to admit same, but, to save those innocents, I'd be the first to bring out the car battery and the jumper cables."

That's what you meant, isn't it.

Is that an answer to your question or my question?

 

[PoliticalChic]

Double dog dare ya' to answer: if you could save the 80-90 children slaughtered by the savages, would you have acquiesced to the enhanced interrogations?

That's the typical demand (usually posted in the form of a "ticking time bomb" and it is an unanswerable question because in real life (not hypothetical scenarios) - it isn't that clear cut at all.

It's been shown that torture isn't usually necessary to gain good information (Secret WWII camp interrogators say torture wasn t needed - CBS News nor does torture gain useful or accurate information. So if I choose to employ torture on an individual who might (or might not) have knowledge that could help save those children I *might* get useful information but - more likely, given what we've found about torture - I *might not*. In that case - valuable time and resources could be lost chasing a phantom and the children could end up dead anyway.

No I would not since there are other means at my disposal.

Stop tap-dancing: yes or no.

...if you could save the 80-90 children slaughtered by the savages, would you have acquiesced to the enhanced interrogations?

Sure we would. Let's just not pretend that it isn't torture. Let's just not pretend that we as a country are any better than them.

1. None of the methods used rise to the level of 'torture.'

2. "The Constitution is not a suicide pact"

3. For comparison....this is torture:
From “Magnifico: The Brilliant Life and Violent Times of Lorenzo De Medici,” by Miles Unger, p. 227-228.

"An incident recorded by the diarist Luca Landucci vividly illustrated the dangers awaiting those who threatened bodily harm to the leading citizens of the regime:

27th September [1481]. A certain hermit came to the house of Lorenzo de’ Medici at the Poggio a Caiano; and the servants declared that he intended to murder Lorenzo, so they took him and sent him to the Bargello, and he was put to the rack.

15th October. This hermit died at Santa Maria Novella, having been tortured in various ways. It was said that they skinned the soles of his feet, and then burnt them by holding them in the fire till the fat dripped off them; after which they set him upright and made him walk across the hall; and these things caused his death. Opinions were divided as to whether he were guilty or innocent."

You're in denial. Of course we torture. Meh. So what. Don't pretend we don't and move on.

I see you've memorized the bumper-sticker of the America-haters.

 

[Wyatt earp]

I guess if liberals kill them outright nothing to talk about?

 

[Coyote]

This is a fun topic because liberal posters amuse the heck out of me, with there non replies to abortion, drone killings and out right assassinations , yet they are so upset about torture and they are still alive.

Liberals hate torture

But don't mind killing

Strange

Um...I'm a liberal poster and I'm not upset. I'm a realist. Yes we torture. No I'm not upset. I just wish people would be honest about what we are willing to do as a country.

I don't agree with torture. But I have a lot more respect for people who have the guts to call it what it is rather than pretend it's something else or justify a moralistic position by claiming "others are worse".

 

[PoliticalChic]

Car battery and jumper cables? someones car broke down?

Ya' wanna make somphin' of it, big boy?????

 

[Vigilante]

 

[Coyote]

Car battery and jumper cables? someones car broke down?

I think this is more in line with hemmerhoid treatments.

 

[Coyote]

I guess if liberals kill them outright nothing to talk about?

Sure. Start a topic on it.

However...I'm not seeing this as a liberal/conservative issue.

 

[bodecea]

Meh. Let's just admit that torture is in our playbook and move on.

"If you thought the Senate’s ‘torture report’ was shocking, imagine the prospect of the Obama administration releasing hundreds, maybe thousands of photographs depicting detainee abuse.

"The Obama administration is withholding hundreds, perhaps even thousands of photographs showing the U.S. government’s brutal treatment of detainees, meaning that revelations about detainee abuse could well continue, possibly compounding the outrage generated by the Senate 'torture report' now in the public eye."
Stay tuned.
The Detainee Abuse Photos Obama Didn t Want You To See - The Daily Beast

Anyone who thinks we don't torture is fooling themselves. We do....let's just admit that we do....and that we will continue to find reasons to justify doing it and move on.

If it makes you feel better, then OK

I feel better that some barbarian gets roughed up a bit to protect my children from being cut in half cuz they won't give into these creeps.

There, now we both feel better.

Actually, it's not a question of feeling better....it's about admitting reality and not really caring what happens to those being tortured.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Maybe that's the liberal deep down fantasies ? "you can't torture them so they live, kill them , so they don't talk"

 

[Meathead]

I guess if liberals kill them outright nothing to talk about?

Sure. Start a topic on it.

However...I'm not seeing this as a liberal/conservative issue.

If you actually read the article you would have found that conservatives and moderates, even Democrats, found the interrogations justified while liberals did not.

 

[Pop23]

Not a deflection....I simply like showing what a fool you are.

And boy is he right along with the other idiots who view waterboarding, sleep deprivation and standing for hours as torture.

Obviously real torture would turn them into crying idiots.

You left out standing for hours on broken bones...minor details. Some of the guys died. Oops. Some weren't guilty of anything. Too bad.

That's torture? Being to go a few days standing up with out sleep?
It seems to me a few Americans went longer to win a car, with there hand on it

Every one of the 10 authorized enhanced techniques have been freely accepted by ordinary Americans in their daily life.....as you suggest.

Please explain how being forced to stand on broken bones in stress positions is "freely accepted by ordinary Americans in their daily life".

Please explain how someone with their head removed will ever be the same again??

Please explain how that comment has to do with torturing someone who may or may not have done anything, by making them stand on broken bones?

In case you didn't realize it - dead is dead. With or without a head.

May or may not have done something??

WOW guess being on a battlefield trying to kill US troops is a nothing in your eyes??

Oh and there are no "Innocent" Muslims. The "innocent" Muslims do nothing to rein in the jihadist among them so one has to assume they agree with and condone what the jihadists do in Allah's name.

Oh and they were the "innocent" Muslims cheering on 9-11.

There are No "innocent" Muslims and I could care if they stand on broken bones, get waterboarded or are kept from sleeping.

They get a better deal than the 3,000 dead did on 9-11.

Meh. Let's just admit that torture is in our playbook and move on.

"If you thought the Senate’s ‘torture report’ was shocking, imagine the prospect of the Obama administration releasing hundreds, maybe thousands of photographs depicting detainee abuse.

"The Obama administration is withholding hundreds, perhaps even thousands of photographs showing the U.S. government’s brutal treatment of detainees, meaning that revelations about detainee abuse could well continue, possibly compounding the outrage generated by the Senate 'torture report' now in the public eye."
Stay tuned.
The Detainee Abuse Photos Obama Didn t Want You To See - The Daily Beast

Anyone who thinks we don't torture is fooling themselves. We do....let's just admit that we do....and that we will continue to find reasons to justify doing it and move on.

If it makes you feel better, then OK

I feel better that some barbarian gets roughed up a bit to protect my children from being cut in half cuz they won't give into these creeps.

There, now we both feel better.

Actually, it's not a question of feeling better....it's about admitting reality and not really caring what happens to those being tortured.

Call it whatever the hell you want to call it.

I CALL IT DOING WHATEVER IT TAKES TO PROTECT OUR FUTURE.

Most people understand that "a word" never saved a single life in war.

I admire my fellow Americans who take the steps required to keep my children safe, and I abhor those that question their deeds.

 

[rightwinger]

Political chick could handle anything thrown at her, because she is a mother and gave birth, not many guys are as tough as that

Maybe we could force prisoners to read her posts

 

[Wyatt earp]

Yup kill them so they don't talk

I am figuring out them liberal mind

 

[Vigilante]

Dog Whistle Politics, done again by the subversive left.

 

[Coyote]

I guess if liberals kill them outright nothing to talk about?

Sure. Start a topic on it.

However...I'm not seeing this as a liberal/conservative issue.

If you actually read the article you would have found that conservatives and moderates, even Democrats, found the interrogations justified while liberals did not.

My comment was directed not at what was found in the article (which I read) but rather at the fact that I don't think torture itself is or should be a left/right issue. Maybe it is, but I would think it should bother people on both sides of the ideological divide. Fear certainly allows us to justify a lot of things that later we deeply regret and were found to be unnecessary and served no useful purpose - for example the internment of the Japanese-Americans.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Some of your post rw ranks right up there to pure torture also

 

[Coyote]

And boy is he right along with the other idiots who view waterboarding, sleep deprivation and standing for hours as torture.

Obviously real torture would turn them into crying idiots.

You left out standing for hours on broken bones...minor details. Some of the guys died. Oops. Some weren't guilty of anything. Too bad.

Every one of the 10 authorized enhanced techniques have been freely accepted by ordinary Americans in their daily life.....as you suggest.

Please explain how being forced to stand on broken bones in stress positions is "freely accepted by ordinary Americans in their daily life".

Please explain how someone with their head removed will ever be the same again??

Please explain how that comment has to do with torturing someone who may or may not have done anything, by making them stand on broken bones?

In case you didn't realize it - dead is dead. With or without a head.

May or may not have done something??

WOW guess being on a battlefield trying to kill US troops is a nothing in your eyes??

Oh and there are no "Innocent" Muslims. The "innocent" Muslims do nothing to rein in the jihadist among them so one has to assume they agree with and condone what the jihadists do in Allah's name.

Oh and they were the "innocent" Muslims cheering on 9-11.

There are No "innocent" Muslims and I could care if they stand on broken bones, get waterboarded or are kept from sleeping.

They get a better deal than the 3,000 dead did on 9-11.

Meh. Let's just admit that torture is in our playbook and move on.

"If you thought the Senate’s ‘torture report’ was shocking, imagine the prospect of the Obama administration releasing hundreds, maybe thousands of photographs depicting detainee abuse.

"The Obama administration is withholding hundreds, perhaps even thousands of photographs showing the U.S. government’s brutal treatment of detainees, meaning that revelations about detainee abuse could well continue, possibly compounding the outrage generated by the Senate 'torture report' now in the public eye."
Stay tuned.
The Detainee Abuse Photos Obama Didn t Want You To See - The Daily Beast

Anyone who thinks we don't torture is fooling themselves. We do....let's just admit that we do....and that we will continue to find reasons to justify doing it and move on.

If it makes you feel better, then OK

I feel better that some barbarian gets roughed up a bit to protect my children from being cut in half cuz they won't give into these creeps.

There, now we both feel better.

Actually, it's not a question of feeling better....it's about admitting reality and not really caring what happens to those being tortured.

Call it whatever the hell you want to call it.

I CALL IT DOING WHATEVER IT TAKES TO PROTECT OUR FUTURE.

Most people understand that "a word" never saved a single life in war.

I admire my fellow Americans who take the steps required to keep my children safe, and I abhor those that question their deeds.

How far are you willing to go in "DOING WHATEVER IT TAKES TO PROTECT OUR FUTURE"?

 

[nodoginnafight]

You left out standing for hours on broken bones...minor details. Some of the guys died. Oops. Some weren't guilty of anything. Too bad.

Please explain how being forced to stand on broken bones in stress positions is "freely accepted by ordinary Americans in their daily life".

Please explain how someone with their head removed will ever be the same again??

Please explain how that comment has to do with torturing someone who may or may not have done anything, by making them stand on broken bones?

In case you didn't realize it - dead is dead. With or without a head.

May or may not have done something??

WOW guess being on a battlefield trying to kill US troops is a nothing in your eyes??

Oh and there are no "Innocent" Muslims. The "innocent" Muslims do nothing to rein in the jihadist among them so one has to assume they agree with and condone what the jihadists do in Allah's name.

Oh and they were the "innocent" Muslims cheering on 9-11.

There are No "innocent" Muslims and I could care if they stand on broken bones, get waterboarded or are kept from sleeping.

They get a better deal than the 3,000 dead did on 9-11.

"If you thought the Senate’s ‘torture report’ was shocking, imagine the prospect of the Obama administration releasing hundreds, maybe thousands of photographs depicting detainee abuse.

"The Obama administration is withholding hundreds, perhaps even thousands of photographs showing the U.S. government’s brutal treatment of detainees, meaning that revelations about detainee abuse could well continue, possibly compounding the outrage generated by the Senate 'torture report' now in the public eye."
Stay tuned.
The Detainee Abuse Photos Obama Didn t Want You To See - The Daily Beast

Anyone who thinks we don't torture is fooling themselves. We do....let's just admit that we do....and that we will continue to find reasons to justify doing it and move on.

If it makes you feel better, then OK

I feel better that some barbarian gets roughed up a bit to protect my children from being cut in half cuz they won't give into these creeps.

There, now we both feel better.

Actually, it's not a question of feeling better....it's about admitting reality and not really caring what happens to those being tortured.

Call it whatever the hell you want to call it.

I CALL IT DOING WHATEVER IT TAKES TO PROTECT OUR FUTURE.

Most people understand that "a word" never saved a single life in war.

I admire my fellow Americans who take the steps required to keep my children safe, and I abhor those that question their deeds.

How far are you willing to go in "DOING WHATEVER IT TAKES TO PROTECT OUR FUTURE"?

Don't be fooled - this isn't about protecting "our future." THAT would include honoring and sacrificing to preserve the ideals and principles that make America a beacon to the world.

This is all about protecting the hide of bedwetters who shit on the sacrifices that others have made to protect American values in order to create an illusion of security for themselves and their own quivering asses.

 

[Meathead]

I guess if liberals kill them outright nothing to talk about?

Sure. Start a topic on it.

However...I'm not seeing this as a liberal/conservative issue.

If you actually read the article you would have found that conservatives and moderates, even Democrats, found the interrogations justified while liberals did not.

My comment was directed not at what was found in the article (which I read) but rather at the fact that I don't think torture itself is or should be a left/right issue. Maybe it is, but I would think it should bother people on both sides of the ideological divide. Fear certainly allows us to justify a lot of things that later we deeply regret and were found to be unnecessary and served no useful purpose - for example the internment of the Japanese-Americans.

While many regret the internment of Japanese-Americans, most do not seem to be sorry for the interrogation techniques used on people like KSM. This is the guy's testimony, "I decapitated with my blessed right hand the head of the American Jew,"

Sorry, your equivalency is BS.