Trayvon Martin And The Right To Be Left Alone...

[catzmeow]

I bet an African cracked your skull open and half of your brains spilled out, just because he caught you looking at him. What else could explain that you aren't aware that a tremendous amount of facts have already been shared with the public?

I'm aware of the even larger amount of facts that have not been made publicly accessible. That's why I posted this thread: http://www.usmessageboard.com/race-...ntial-problems-with-zimmerman-indictment.html

There should not be a rush to judgement on either side in this matter, at this point in time. Doing so is ridiculous, in light of the missing facts, and may potentially deny Zimmerman the right to a fair trial.

It's true that Zimmerman should have stayed in his SUV. But, only for his own protection, not because there's some law saying so, nor even a rule in the Boy Scout manual.

He should have stayed in his vehicle because he was functioning in the capacity of a volunteer representative of the Neighborhood Watch in his area, and the NW protocols for that program state that NWers should never, EVER confront a suspect or become involved in a suspected crime.

When you are serving as a volunteer for a program or agency, you should comply with that program or agency's rules, because they exist for your protection (and for the protection of the agency itself).

 

[Misty]

I agree with this. Unless someone Is actually committing a criminal act, just leave people alone. That goes for vigilantes and police.

Being a chick I've been hassled in a different way. Not profiled as a criminal but as someone who wants males to stare, hoot, make suggestive comments, thinking that I'm a whore.

We all should be left alone to walk around town without being hassled by anyone for any reason.

Unless I'm naked then I'm just asking for it. Lol.

 

[Ariux]

I agree with this. Unless someone Is actually committing a criminal act, just leave people alone. That goes for vigilantes and police.

If you see someone casing the neighborhood, calling the police could prevent someone from becoming a victim just by having a police car drive down the street, or maybe result in the burglar getting caught in the act of a crime. Calling the police after a crime is nearly useless.

Zimmerman mostly did leave Trayvon alone. The trouble is, if someone is casing the neighborhood, they're probably going to see you watching them, because casing involves looking to see if anyone is watching you. And, this is just what happened. If Trayvon were innocent, he probably wouldn't have even noticed Zimmerman. If Trayvon were were innocent, he would have been back home long before the shooting or the police arriving.

We all should be left alone to walk around town without being hassled by anyone for any reason.

The piece-of-shit presumed father of the piece-of-shit Trayvon said he warned Trayvon about the dangers from whites for being black (as if it's not whites who are in far more danger around blacks). Just like you think Zimmerman should have "left alone" Trayvon, don't you think Trayvon should have not made himself menacing in appearance? (Zimmerman called police for how Trayvon was BEHAVING, not that the hoodie, commonly used by burglars to hide their identity, helped.) If you're walking down the street at night, in a neighborhood suffering from a rash of burglaries, you should be walking like you're going someplace, not meandering around, like you're casing. Instead, Trayvon practiced behaving like a thug (see his social web pages), and that was apparent in the behavioral description that Zimmerman gave in the 911 call.

 

[Jarhead]

I agree with this. Unless someone Is actually committing a criminal act, just leave people alone. That goes for vigilantes and police.

Being a chick I've been hassled in a different way. Not profiled as a criminal but as someone who wants males to stare, hoot, make suggestive comments, thinking that I'm a whore.

We all should be left alone to walk around town without being hassled by anyone for any reason.

Unless I'm naked then I'm just asking for it. Lol.

you mean you dont?

Maybe that explains some things.

 

[Dick Tuck]

We do know that Martin was suspended from school when this happened.
For many violations. Having a bag full of women's jewlery with a long screw driver in his locker. "A friend gave it to me" Who was that friend? "I forgot"
You folks sure are not very bright.
Choir boys do not get suspended from school, have a bag full of unknown women's jewlery in your possession.

So you believe that Martin got what was coming to him? What a sick perspective.

 

[Oldstyle]

The whole premise behind a "gated community" is that people who live outside the community aren't supposed to walk or drive inside of the community...therefore making it less likely that the people who DO live there will be robbed or assaulted.

If Trayvon Martin were walking outside of this gated community then he has every right in the world to be where he is...but since he was walking inside of a gated community he really doesn't have the right to be indignant if someone asks him who he is and what he's doing.

First off, he had every right to be inside that gated community, since that was where he was living at that moment. Second, he had every right to tell some stalking nut to go pound sand, if they asked him what he was doing, since what he was doing wasn't criminal.

Is there a different version of simple freedom depending on skin color and attire?

He was not living there...he was visiting his father's girlfriend who lived there. As for what he had a right to tell Zimmerman? You're correct in stating that Martin has the "right" to tell Zimmerman to go pound sand but it doesn't make it any less of a stupid thing to do. Anyone with common sense is going to stop and explain that they are staying with such and such a person at such and such an address. "Skin color" didn't come into play here because it's obvious that Zimmerman was suspicious of Martin long before he KNEW the color of his skin...something we know with certainty from the call he made to police. As for "attire"? If one wears certain clothing one will be judged accordingly. That's reality. Most muggers don't wear "preppie" clothing. Most muggers DO wear baggy clothing and hoods or hats that help to conceal their identities. If Trayvon Martin's whole "Thug Killa" personna caused him to wear clothing to match...then he's going to be suspicious to neighborhood watches. That's also reality.

 

[catzmeow]

If you see someone casing the neighborhood, calling the police could prevent someone from becoming a victim just by having a police car drive down the street, or maybe result in the burglar getting caught in the act of a crime. Calling the police after a crime is nearly useless.

If you wish to engage in this behavior as an individual citizen, that's fine. If you're acting as a reprentative of a police-sponsored volunteer group, it is not fine.

And, calling the police does, in fact, often prevent crime. No one has suggested that Mr. Zimmerman contact the authorities AFTER the event. In fact, I've clearly stated that people should WATCH and REPORT. Zimmerman observed something suspicious. He called the police. As a representative of neighborhood watch, his involvement should have ceased at that point in time.

Zimmerman mostly did leave Trayvon alone. The trouble is, if someone is casing the neighborhood, they're probably going to see you watching them, because casing involves looking to see if anyone is watching you. And, this is just what happened. If Trayvon were innocent, he probably wouldn't have even noticed Zimmerman. If Trayvon were were innocent, he would have been back home long before the shooting or the police arriving.

When he stopped his vehicle and got out, he stopped leaving Trayvon alone.

Here is the question that people really need to ask themselves:

What would you do, if you were confronted in a dark neighborhood, ALONE, by a guy who pulls his vehicle over and approaches you?

Would you consider it threatening? Would you be afraid?

What if you saw that the person had a gun visible? We don't know that Zimmerman flashed his gun at Martin, but he was clearly armed. Would you think that you were about to be robbed or attacked?

Ariux: What would you do, if you were confronted by a black man, with a gun, after dark, when you were walking in your dad's neighborhood?

I'm very interested in your answer.

 

[Jarhead]

We do know that Martin was suspended from school when this happened.
For many violations. Having a bag full of women's jewlery with a long screw driver in his locker. "A friend gave it to me" Who was that friend? "I forgot"
You folks sure are not very bright.
Choir boys do not get suspended from school, have a bag full of unknown women's jewlery in your possession.

So you believe that Martin got what was coming to him? What a sick perspective.

what is sicker...no....sadder....is that you came to that conclusion based on what you read in his post.

I suggest a reading comprehension course.

 

[Newby]

If you see someone casing the neighborhood, calling the police could prevent someone from becoming a victim just by having a police car drive down the street, or maybe result in the burglar getting caught in the act of a crime. Calling the police after a crime is nearly useless.

If you wish to engage in this behavior as an individual citizen, that's fine. If you're acting as a reprentative of a police-sponsored volunteer group, it is not fine.

And, calling the police does, in fact, often prevent crime. No one has suggested that Mr. Zimmerman contact the authorities AFTER the event. In fact, I've clearly stated that people should WATCH and REPORT.

Zimmerman mostly did leave Trayvon alone. The trouble is, if someone is casing the neighborhood, they're probably going to see you watching them, because casing involves looking to see if anyone is watching you. And, this is just what happened. If Trayvon were innocent, he probably wouldn't have even noticed Zimmerman. If Trayvon were were innocent, he would have been back home long before the shooting or the police arriving.

When he stopped his vehicle and got out, he stopped leaving Trayvon alone. that's not "mostly."

Here is the question that people really need to ask themselves:

What would you do, if you were confronted in a dark neighborhood, ALONE, by a guy who pulls his vehicle over and approaches you?

Would you consider it threatening? Would you be afraid?

What if you saw that the person had a gun visible? We don't know that Zimmerman flashed his gun at Martin, but he was clearly armed. Would you think that you were about to be robbed or attacked?

Ariux: What would you do, if you were confronted by a black man, with a gun, after dark, when you were walking in your dad's neighborhood?

I'm very interested in your answer.

I would very quickly head for my house, which from what I understand from hearing and reading other reports, was about 30 seconds or less away from Martin. Why didn't he just go home?

 

[catzmeow]

I would very quickly head for my house, which from what I understand from hearing and reading other reports, was about 30 seconds or less away from Martin. Why didn't he just go home?

I don't know. Why didn't Zimmerman? Perhaps Martin wasn't allowed to leave the area. Perhaps Zimmerman pursued and tackled him. Perhaps Martin perceived that Zimmerman would shoot him if he fled.

There are a lot of possible explanations, and we simply don't (and won't) have the answers to the question you've posed until trial (if then).

The only thing that I know clearly, at this point in time, is that Zimmerman was not following NW protocols. Whether he was responsible for murder, or was assaulted by Martin, is completely unclear.

 

[Ariux]

What would you do, if you were confronted in a dark neighborhood, ALONE, by a guy who pulls his vehicle over and approaches you?

First, if I weren't up to no good, I might think what I'm seeing is just a coincidence. Maybe Zimmerman parked on the street and is visiting someone in this direction. But, if I were up to no good, as is the case with Trayvon, paranoia would suggest that his interest is me.

Second, as long as he kept his distance, I wouldn't be to worried, especially if I'm 6'3" and he's fat. If I'm a no-limit-nigga, I might think he's afraid of me and is waiting for me to move on, so he can get to where he's going.

Third, if I am fearful, I'm going to be making haste getting out of there. If I'm really fearful, I'd dial 911. Trayvon did neither of these things.

What if you saw that the person had a gun visible?

The gun wasn't visible. It was tucked in his pants, at night, from at distance. Zimmerman couldn't tell what Trayvon was holding in his hand, so how would Trayvon know what was in Zimmerman's waistband? The girlfriend was on the phone up until the time Trayvon confronted Zimmerman, and she didn't say anything about Trayvon saying Zimmerman had a gun. If I saw a gun, or was otherwise worried, I would not have approached that someone to ask why he's following me. I would have getting out of there.

We don't know that Zimmerman flashed his gun at Martin, but he was clearly armed.

How do we know Zimmerman flashed his gun at Trayvon?

Trayvon was a piece of shit. You need to dump your image of him as a dark-skinned Anglo 12yr old.

 

[Newby]

I would very quickly head for my house, which from what I understand from hearing and reading other reports, was about 30 seconds or less away from Martin. Why didn't he just go home?

I don't know. Why didn't Zimmerman? Perhaps Martin wasn't allowed to leave the area. Perhaps Zimmerman pursued and tackled him. Perhaps Martin perceived that Zimmerman would shoot him if he fled.

There are a lot of possible explanations, and we simply don't (and won't) have the answers to the question you've posed until trial (if then).

The only thing that I know clearly, at this point in time, is that Zimmerman was not following NW protocols. Whether he was responsible for murder, or was assaulted by Martin, is completely unclear.

If he knew Zimmerman had a weapon and was threatening to shoot him, I'm guessing Zimmerman wouldn't have ended up with a broken nose and a bashed head to begin with. I think a lot of your assumptions above can already be eliminated with what we do already have answers too. He was young and athletic and could have run between houses and out paced Zimmerman very easily as well. I don't think Zimmerman could have confronted him even if he had wanted too, if Zimmerman chose not to let it happen. Yet instead he obviously chose to confront Zimmerman since the two of them engaged in a phystical conflict.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

A kid going out at 7 pm to get a can of tea and some candy. A man with a background that never should have allowed him to have a concealed carry permit. The man follows the kid. The kid becomes aware of it, and is worried. The police advise the man to not make contact with the kid. And a couple of minutes later, the kid is dead. And we have only Zimmerman's words for what happened in those couple of minutes.

So, had Zimmerman not had a gun, the kid would be alive. Error #1, that Zimmerman was given the permit.

Had Zimmerman not followed the kid, the kid would be alive. As the article stated, what right did Zimmerman have to follow the kid? Why did he not simply advise the police and cease and desist?
Error #2

The Police told Zimmerman not to contact the kid. But Zimmerman got out of his vehicle and looked for the kid anyway. Error #3 on Zimmerman's part.

The kid went to the store for some tea and candy. Error #1

The kid did not run as fast as possible once he realized that he was being followed. Error #2

Since we still do not know what really took place at the confrontation, so we do not know errors were there.

Seems to me that based on the errors noted, that Zimmerman's were of a much more serious nature than those of the kid's.

While it sucks trayvon got shot. If he hadn't resorted to violence to solve his problem he would be alive today.
I know I for one would not attack someone for following me. I would have called the police...not my girlfriend.

 

[Jarhead]

A kid going out at 7 pm to get a can of tea and some candy. A man with a background that never should have allowed him to have a concealed carry permit. The man follows the kid. The kid becomes aware of it, and is worried. The police advise the man to not make contact with the kid. And a couple of minutes later, the kid is dead. And we have only Zimmerman's words for what happened in those couple of minutes.

So, had Zimmerman not had a gun, the kid would be alive. Error #1, that Zimmerman was given the permit.

Had Zimmerman not followed the kid, the kid would be alive. As the article stated, what right did Zimmerman have to follow the kid? Why did he not simply advise the police and cease and desist?
Error #2

The Police told Zimmerman not to contact the kid. But Zimmerman got out of his vehicle and looked for the kid anyway. Error #3 on Zimmerman's part.

The kid went to the store for some tea and candy. Error #1

The kid did not run as fast as possible once he realized that he was being followed. Error #2

Since we still do not know what really took place at the confrontation, so we do not know errors were there.

Seems to me that based on the errors noted, that Zimmerman's were of a much more serious nature than those of the kid's.

While it sucks trayvon got shot. If he hadn't resorted to violence to solve his problem he would be alive today.
I know I for one would not attack someone for following me. I would have called the police...not my girlfriend.

Assuming he attacked Zimmerman.

We dont know yet.

 

[catzmeow]

If he knew Zimmerman had a weapon and was threatening to shoot him, I'm guessing Zimmerman wouldn't have ended up with a broken nose and a bashed head to begin with. I think a lot of your assumptions above can already be eliminated with what we do already have answers too. He was young and athletic and could have run between houses and out paced Zimmerman very easily as well. I don't think Zimmerman could have confronted him even if he had wanted too, if Zimmerman chose not to let it happen. Yet instead he obviously chose to confront Zimmerman since the two of them engaged in a phystical conflict.

I don't think we can make the assumptions you've made, Newby. People don't always react rationally when they're afraid for their personal safety.

And, I don't believe it can be assumed that Martin confronted Zimmerman, and that's how the conflict began. That's a huge assumption, and there isn't any evidence at this point in time to support it. We don't know who confronted whom. We do know that Zimmerman voluntarily exited his vehicle in violation of NW protocols. And, really, that's all we know, aside from the fact that Martin is dead. I haven't even seen good evidence of Zimmerman's injuries.

 

[Ariux]

Assuming he attacked Zimmerman.

We dont know yet.

It's also unclear if the Earth is round.

 

[Jarhead]

Assuming he attacked Zimmerman.

We dont know yet.

It's also unclear if the Earth is round.

so it is clear to you that Martin attacked Zimmerman..

But unclear to you that the earth is round.

Cool.

 

[catzmeow]

But, if I were up to no good, as is the case with Trayvon, paranoia would suggest that his interest is me.

Speculation without evidence.

Third, if I am fearful, I'm going to be making haste getting out of there. If I'm really fearful, I'd dial 911. Trayvon did neither of these things.

It largely depends on how quickly things happened. You might not have time to dial 911 when directly confronted.

The gun wasn't visible. It was tucked in his pants, at night, from at distance.

Speculation. How far apart were they? I've seen guns tucked in pants from quite a distance.

The girlfriend was on the phone up until the time Trayvon confronted Zimmerman,

The girlfriend did not report that Martin confronted Zimmerman. If this is your claim, provide evidence.

If I saw a gun, or was otherwise worried, I would not have approached that someone to ask why he's following me. I would have getting out of there.

If the person was quite close, you might not believe that you'd get away. More speculation.

We don't know that Zimmerman flashed his gun at Martin, but he was clearly armed.

How do we know Zimmerman flashed his gun at Trayvon?

Can you READ, muthafucka? I clearly noted, in my quote, that we do not know what happened with the gun.

Trayvon was a piece of shit. You need to dump your image of him as a dark-skinned Anglo 12yr old.

More speculation.

Further, your assumptions about me are dumb. I work with offenders. I don't have any preconceived notions about Mr. Martin.

You, on the other hand, clearly do.

 

[catzmeow]

FWIW, I think this is a good post by Liability on the subject:

As I was saying (correctly) to the intelligent people (this clearly excludes you Ariyuucchs), we have not seen the evidence.

We all know that Trayvon got shot, but even the racist shit-suckers like you couldn't tell us WHERE on his body the bullet's point of entry was.

You racist goons cannot account for the LACK of the physical appearance on Zimmerman of any (discernible) hint of a broken nose on the videotape taken that same day at the police precinct.

We have not seen ANY autopsy reports, photographs or sketches.

We have exactly ZERO forensic evidence of GSR or blood spatter etc.

The conclusion any intelligent objective person would reach AT THIS MOMENT is that we are not in a proper position to gauge whether or not Zimmerman's conduct was justified.
Oh, and Ariyuuuchs: fuck yourself, pin dick.

I agree with Liability on this...I think it's important to clear up any misconceptions about Neighborhood Watch (mainly because I know something on the subject). However, as far as the case goes, most of what we know right now is how much we don't know about what actually happened.

It is impossible, at this point in time, to make a meaningful allegation that this was a race-related crime. It is ALSO incredibly irresponsible to operate from a position in which you proclaim that you know who is at fault in this situation.

Zimmerman should be presumed innocent. Martin should be, as well. Hopefully, the answers to many of the questions that have been asked will be cleared up in court.

Assuming that we know the answers, because of past behavior on the part of either, or their race, is just moronic bullshit.

 

[KissMy]

How many times do I have to point out that you are not allowed to attack someone because they ask you a question. You can just ignore them & not reply.

Very true. If Martin asked Zimmerman a question, Zimmerman would not have any justification for attacking Martin. If Zimmerman asked Martin a question, Martin would not have any justification for attacking Zimmerman.

Likewise you can't attack someone for following you or because they have a gun. Open carry guns is legal in Florida.

Also true.

However if they threatened you with a gun, then under Florida Statutes (784.011) that would be assault and you would be authorized to defend yourself statutes 776.012 (self defense) and 776.032 (commonly called the Stand Your Ground) provisions.

>>>>

Well there is absolutely no proof that Zimmerman started the attack by pulling his gun on Martin. Martins girlfriend did not hear anything about gun while on the phone with Martin & none of the other witnesses saw a gun heard anything about a gun until after the shot was fired.

Likewise, there is absolutely no proof that Zimmerman started the attack by hitting Martin. Since Martin's body had no marks or bruises of any kind on it. Martin had no just cause to feel threatened if he was not struck by Zimmerman or had a gun pulled on him. If there is no legal threat, then Martin was not justified to "Stand His Ground".

Another fact that gets glossed over is that Martin was from a broken home. Children from broken homes are nine times more likely to commit a violent crime than others. Judging by Martin's school record, he was clearly on a downward spiral.