Trayvon Martin And The Right To Be Left Alone...

[Dick Tuck]

How many times do I have to point out that you are not allowed to attack someone because they ask you a question. You can just assert your 5th amendment rights & not reply.

Very true. If Martin asked Zimmerman a question, Zimmerman would not have any justification for attacking Martin. If Zimmerman asked Martin a question, Martin would not have any justification for attacking Zimmerman.

Likewise you can't attack someone for following you or because they have a gun. Open carry guns is legal in Florida.

Also true.

However if they threatened you with a gun, then under Florida Statutes (784.011) that would be assault and you would be authorized to defend yourself statutes 776.012 (self defense) and 776.032 (commonly called the Stand Your Ground) provisions.

>>>>

Well there is absolutely no proof that Zimmerman started the attack by pulling his gun on Martin. Martins girlfriend did not hear anything about gun while on the phone with Martin & none of the other witnesses saw a gun heard anything about a gun until after the shot was fired.

Another fact that gets glossed over is that Martin was from a broken home. Children from broken homes are nine times more likely to commit a violent crime than others. Judging by Martin's school record, he was clearly on a downward spiral.

You're a pathetic fool. Are you one of David Duke's white advocates? There's ample evidence that Zimmerman stalked Martin, chased Martin, and planted a slug in the 17 year old's chest.

I guess you think that was a good thing. On the contrary, I think it shows a racist, nativist hate of what America stands for.

 

[Gadawg73]

In September, the Sanford police helped the Retreat start a neighborhood watch program.

"Some residents called me wanting to do a startup," said Dorival, a civilian police employee. About 30 people came to the clubhouse for that first session, she said. "Everyone was enthusiastic." Zimmerman volunteered to be captain.

"I told them, this is not about being a vigilante police force," Dorival said. "You're not even supposed to patrol on neighborhood watch. And you're certainly not supposed to carry a gun."

Trayvon Martin's killing shatters safety within Retreat at Twin Lakes in Sanford - Tampa Bay Times


Sanford Police Department Neighborhood Watch Guidelines

You will add your “eyes and ears” to
those of the Police Department which
cannot be everywhere, all the time, by
keeping a watchful eye and open ear to
what is happening in your
neighborhood. You will extend their
ability to provide security by reporting
anything unusual or suspicious, 24 hours
a day, seven days a week, so they can
follow up on your leads. What you will
not do is get physically involved with
any activity you report or
apprehension of any suspicious
persons. This is the job of the law
enforcement agency.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/NWProgramHandbook.pdf

"civilian police employee"

Citizens have a right to patrol their neighborhoods and that is not against the law.
Never has been and never will be.

 

[Gadawg73]

If he knew Zimmerman had a weapon and was threatening to shoot him, I'm guessing Zimmerman wouldn't have ended up with a broken nose and a bashed head to begin with. I think a lot of your assumptions above can already be eliminated with what we do already have answers too. He was young and athletic and could have run between houses and out paced Zimmerman very easily as well. I don't think Zimmerman could have confronted him even if he had wanted too, if Zimmerman chose not to let it happen. Yet instead he obviously chose to confront Zimmerman since the two of them engaged in a phystical conflict.

I don't think we can make the assumptions you've made, Newby. People don't always react rationally when they're afraid for their personal safety.

And, I don't believe it can be assumed that Martin confronted Zimmerman, and that's how the conflict began. That's a huge assumption, and there isn't any evidence at this point in time to support it. We don't know who confronted whom. We do know that Zimmerman voluntarily exited his vehicle in violation of NW protocols. And, really, that's all we know, aside from the fact that Martin is dead. I haven't even seen good evidence of Zimmerman's injuries.

You are making the assumptions that Zimmerman acted inappropriately by pursuing Martin and your assumption Martin intervened.
No evidence whatsoever of that but you have made that conclusion.

 

[catzmeow]

There's ample evidence that Zimmerman stalked Martin, chased Martin, and planted a slug in the 17 year old's chest.

Fail.

 

[Old Rocks]

I would very quickly head for my house, which from what I understand from hearing and reading other reports, was about 30 seconds or less away from Martin. Why didn't he just go home?

I don't know. Why didn't Zimmerman? Perhaps Martin wasn't allowed to leave the area. Perhaps Zimmerman pursued and tackled him. Perhaps Martin perceived that Zimmerman would shoot him if he fled.

There are a lot of possible explanations, and we simply don't (and won't) have the answers to the question you've posed until trial (if then).

The only thing that I know clearly, at this point in time, is that Zimmerman was not following NW protocols. Whether he was responsible for murder, or was assaulted by Martin, is completely unclear.

If he knew Zimmerman had a weapon and was threatening to shoot him, I'm guessing Zimmerman wouldn't have ended up with a broken nose and a bashed head to begin with. I think a lot of your assumptions above can already be eliminated with what we do already have answers too. He was young and athletic and could have run between houses and out paced Zimmerman very easily as well. I don't think Zimmerman could have confronted him even if he had wanted too, if Zimmerman chose not to let it happen. Yet instead he obviously chose to confront Zimmerman since the two of them engaged in a phystical conflict.

Just how the fuck do you know that? You have only Zimmerman's word for that. Obviously a disinterested party, right?

 

[catzmeow]

You are making the assumptions that Zimmerman acted inappropriately by pursuing Martin and your assumption Martin intervened.
No evidence whatsoever of that but you have made that conclusion.

If Zimmerman pursued Martin, he acted inappropriately based upon NW protocols.

If he intervened with Martin, that was also inappropriate based upon NW protocols.

I'm not sure why he exited his vehicle in proximity to Martin, but according to NW protocols, he should not have done so.

These are my only assumptions, and they are based upon thorougly understanding the role of NW volunteers. I've also provided you with evidence of this.

You can continue to misstate my position, if you wish, but that would be stupid.

 

[Gadawg73]

News flash to the uninformed here: Zimmerman HAS a concealed weapons permit.
That trumps any and all civilian police "guidelines" stating they "should" not have a weapon.
Anyone that works on a community watch without being armed has to be beyond stupid.
"Hey Moe, we have been robbed many times in our neighborhood and we want you to be on guard watching for other burglars. But do not bring a weapon"
I am sure there will be a long line of volunteers.
Some people live in LAH LAH LAND.

 

[Full-Auto]

I don't know. Why didn't Zimmerman? Perhaps Martin wasn't allowed to leave the area. Perhaps Zimmerman pursued and tackled him. Perhaps Martin perceived that Zimmerman would shoot him if he fled.

There are a lot of possible explanations, and we simply don't (and won't) have the answers to the question you've posed until trial (if then).

The only thing that I know clearly, at this point in time, is that Zimmerman was not following NW protocols. Whether he was responsible for murder, or was assaulted by Martin, is completely unclear.

If he knew Zimmerman had a weapon and was threatening to shoot him, I'm guessing Zimmerman wouldn't have ended up with a broken nose and a bashed head to begin with. I think a lot of your assumptions above can already be eliminated with what we do already have answers too. He was young and athletic and could have run between houses and out paced Zimmerman very easily as well. I don't think Zimmerman could have confronted him even if he had wanted too, if Zimmerman chose not to let it happen. Yet instead he obviously chose to confront Zimmerman since the two of them engaged in a phystical conflict.

Just how the fuck do you know that? You have only Zimmerman's word for that. Obviously a disinterested party, right?

We also have the witness.


dumb ass

 

[Old Rocks]

If he knew Zimmerman had a weapon and was threatening to shoot him, I'm guessing Zimmerman wouldn't have ended up with a broken nose and a bashed head to begin with. I think a lot of your assumptions above can already be eliminated with what we do already have answers too. He was young and athletic and could have run between houses and out paced Zimmerman very easily as well. I don't think Zimmerman could have confronted him even if he had wanted too, if Zimmerman chose not to let it happen. Yet instead he obviously chose to confront Zimmerman since the two of them engaged in a phystical conflict.

I don't think we can make the assumptions you've made, Newby. People don't always react rationally when they're afraid for their personal safety.

And, I don't believe it can be assumed that Martin confronted Zimmerman, and that's how the conflict began. That's a huge assumption, and there isn't any evidence at this point in time to support it. We don't know who confronted whom. We do know that Zimmerman voluntarily exited his vehicle in violation of NW protocols. And, really, that's all we know, aside from the fact that Martin is dead. I haven't even seen good evidence of Zimmerman's injuries.

You are making the assumptions that Zimmerman acted inappropriately by pursuing Martin and your assumption Martin intervened.
No evidence whatsoever of that but you have made that conclusion.

At present, what we know for sure is that Zimmerman was in a confrontational state of mind by his comments during his phone call. That he was packing, and had a history that should have prevented him from that. The kid's history is not one of that kind of violence. Also, this was 7 pm, not 3 am, so why was Zimmerman so intent on not waiting for the police.

 

[jillian]

It's more than that jillian. There *was* the force of the law.

Sanford Police Department Neighborhood Watch Guidelines

You will add your “eyes and ears” to
those of the Police Department which
cannot be everywhere, all the time, by
keeping a watchful eye and open ear to
what is happening in your
neighborhood. You will extend their
ability to provide security by reporting
anything unusual or suspicious, 24 hours
a day, seven days a week, so they can
follow up on your leads. What you will
not do is get physically involved with
any activity you report or
apprehension of any suspicious
persons. This is the job of the law
enforcement agency.

^^^^ Emphasis THEIRS.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/NWProgramHandbook.pdf

In big bold-up fonts the above words there INSIST people are not to " get physically involved with any activity you report or apprehen[d] of any suspicious persons."

They do that in not only one area of the NW Guidelines, but twice.
In BOLD letters.

We KNOW Zimmerman was told by police this, as Z was the one who helped facilitate the NW meeting with the Sanford Police Chief for guidelines, and as contact and Captain would necessarily need to be informed of the rules:

Twin Lakes at Retreat news letter -Sept 2011:
George Zimmerman's name listed as contact & that Chief Lee was coming to next meeting:

RTL Newsletter September 2011 FINAL

Feb 2012 Twin Lakes at Retreat news letter - George Zimmerman identified as Captain.

RTL February 2012 Newsletter

SFP -meeting with residents after shooting - Relaying Zimmerman was acting as NW at the time.

Sanford PD Meeting

"Guidelines"
Police guidelines are also not to confront an intruder in your home. Their guidelines are to exit your residence.I will go with their guidelines.
After the intruder has an oozing 3rd eye in his forehead with a 3 inch hole in the back of their head.
Guidelines are not the law.

as to the part i bolded... i don't believe that's true. common always permits you to defend yourself, another or your property.

what it doesn't allow you to do is go a huntin'

 

[Old Rocks]

If he knew Zimmerman had a weapon and was threatening to shoot him, I'm guessing Zimmerman wouldn't have ended up with a broken nose and a bashed head to begin with. I think a lot of your assumptions above can already be eliminated with what we do already have answers too. He was young and athletic and could have run between houses and out paced Zimmerman very easily as well. I don't think Zimmerman could have confronted him even if he had wanted too, if Zimmerman chose not to let it happen. Yet instead he obviously chose to confront Zimmerman since the two of them engaged in a phystical conflict.

Just how the fuck do you know that? You have only Zimmerman's word for that. Obviously a disinterested party, right?

We also have the witness.


dumb ass

Really? Thus far, all I have seen is that someone said the kid was on top. Not that the kid confronted Zimmerman. And the experts are stating that Zimmerman was not the one screaming for help.

 

[catzmeow]

News flash to the uninformed here: Zimmerman HAS a concealed weapons permit.
That trumps any and all civilian police "guidelines" stating they "should" not have a weapon.

No, it doesn't. If he doesn't want to follow the rules, don't join the group.

Anyone that works on a community watch without being armed has to be beyond stupid.

I've worked with octogenarian women who were die-hard NWers. They didn't carry guns.

"Hey Moe, we have been robbed many times in our neighborhood and we want you to be on guard watching for other burglars. But do not bring a weapon"
I am sure there will be a long line of volunteers.
Some people live in LAH LAH LAND.

I generally enjoy your posts, but you've clearly gone off the reservation today. However, feel free to keep digging. It's semi-entertaining to watch, in a funny-sad kind of way.

 

[Full-Auto]

[/COLOR]

Just how the fuck do you know that? You have only Zimmerman's word for that. Obviously a disinterested party, right?

We also have the witness.


dumb ass

Really? Thus far, all I have seen is that someone said the kid was on top. Not that the kid confronted Zimmerman. And the experts are stating that Zimmerman was not the one screaming for help.

There are accounts that go back and forth, what makes zimmermans account of events believable was the evidence. To further highlight that point, no immediate arrest was made.


All you have is a desire to convict someone based on a news account.

 

[Foxfyre]

First, Zimmerman was NOT on neighborhood watch duty the night of the shooting. He was in his vehicle on a personal errand on a cold rainy night.

It is not unreasonable that, given his neighborhood watch duties, that he would notice a hooded figure walking on a cold, rainy night, carrying a bag. Those of us who have not volunteered for neighborhood watch or those who have not experienced break ins and burglaries probably wouldn't have noticed that figure. Those of us who have volunteered for neighborhood watch and/or who have experienced break ins and burglarlies probably would have noticed.

The verdict is still out whether Martin or Zimmerman was the aggressor in this case. None of us know. It is easy to say that if Zimmerman did not have a gun, Martin would be alive to day. It is not as easy to say that if Zimmerman did not have a gun, Zimmerman would still be alive today. That is the part of this that none of us knows.

Yes, when I am in my home, I have every right to expect to be left alone and not hasseled. But when I am on a public street, and fit the profile or description of somebody who has committed recent crimes, I have no right to avoid attention or questioning. If more of us were more willing to note and report suspicious activity, I think we would all live in more peaceful and less violent and less crime ridden neighborhoods. Our children would be safer. And we wouldn't suffer nearly as much trauma of broken into vehicles, burglarized homes and businesses, etc.

The police cannot be everywhere.

 

[catzmeow]

as to the part i bolded... i don't believe that's true. common always permits you to defend yourself, another or your property.

what it doesn't allow you to do is go a huntin'

I've never worked with a cop who didn't support castle doctrine, or make preparations to exercise it, if necessary.

 

[Old Rocks]

News flash to the uninformed here: Zimmerman HAS a concealed weapons permit.
That trumps any and all civilian police "guidelines" stating they "should" not have a weapon.
Anyone that works on a community watch without being armed has to be beyond stupid.
"Hey Moe, we have been robbed many times in our neighborhood and we want you to be on guard watching for other burglars. But do not bring a weapon"
I am sure there will be a long line of volunteers.
Some people live in LAH LAH LAND.

Damn!!!!!!!!! Your post is beyond stupid. Almost all NW's forbid the carrying of weopons. Your job is to report suspicious events to the police, not act as police.

 

[Newby]

You are making the assumptions that Zimmerman acted inappropriately by pursuing Martin and your assumption Martin intervened.
No evidence whatsoever of that but you have made that conclusion.

If Zimmerman pursued Martin, he acted inappropriately based upon NW protocols.

If he intervened with Martin, that was also inappropriate based upon NW protocols.

I'm not sure why he exited his vehicle in proximity to Martin, but according to NW protocols, he should not have done so.

These are my only assumptions, and they are based upon thorougly understanding the role of NW volunteers. I've also provided you with evidence of this.

You can continue to misstate my position, if you wish, but that would be stupid.

'NW Protocols' are not the law, so it really doesn't matter whether he followed them or not in a court of law. As to why he got out of his vehicle, the obvious answer is that he couldn't follow Martin that way to let the police know where he was once they got there. You always allude to sinister motivation on the part of Zimmerman, it's somewhat obvious that you're biased against him.

 

[Gadawg73]

You are making the assumptions that Zimmerman acted inappropriately by pursuing Martin and your assumption Martin intervened.
No evidence whatsoever of that but you have made that conclusion.

If Zimmerman pursued Martin, he acted inappropriately based upon NW protocols.

If he intervened with Martin, that was also inappropriate based upon NW protocols.

I'm not sure why he exited his vehicle in proximity to Martin, but according to NW protocols, he should not have done so.

These are my only assumptions, and they are based upon thorougly understanding the role of NW volunteers. I've also provided you with evidence of this.

You can continue to misstate my position, if you wish, but that would be stupid.

Wrong, you watch and report. How does one watch if your target is moving?
There is NO crime committed by not going by "protocol".
If he violated ALL of the protocol he can NOT be charged with any crime.
Totally irrelevant.
What crime did Zimmerman do by leaving his vehicle, following Martin and if he asked Martin "what are you doing here"?
What crime?
Your position CLEARLY has been based on the NW "protocol" and I am telling you that has NOTHING to do with the charges and most likely none of that is admissable as evidence.
NW protocol IS NOT THE LAW.

 

[jillian]

We also have the witness.


dumb ass

Really? Thus far, all I have seen is that someone said the kid was on top. Not that the kid confronted Zimmerman. And the experts are stating that Zimmerman was not the one screaming for help.

There are accounts that go back and forth, what makes zimmermans account of events believable was the evidence. To further highlight that point, no immediate arrest was made.


All you have is a desire to convict someone based on a news account.

all your recitation does is illustrate why there needs to be a trial and why the police failed in investigating the matter properly.

 

[Dick Tuck]

There's ample evidence that Zimmerman stalked Martin, chased Martin, and planted a slug in the 17 year old's chest.

Fail.

Because a twit like you says so? Better work on your forensic acumen. You're a numbskull. There's sufficient evidence to support what I posted. You've got nothing except your hate of people who have a different melanin content than you.