Treason or Whistle Blower?

[Wry Catcher]

That's breach of contract, which is a civil offense not criminal.

Sorry Portland (I've dropped the Odd-Dude since you're such a concret thinker, Portland seems most appropriate) you're as usual full of shit. It is a CRIME and a Felony.

So what? I mean, really - let's say we all agree it was a crime and he should be prosecuted (or maybe you'd rather torture him yourself, or pee on his head, or something) or whatever. The thing is, Snowden isn't the story here. It's what he revealed that is the issue.

THE THREAD IS ALL ABOUT SNOWDEN, YOU MORON!

And what do you think about that? Do you care that our government is creating a surveillance state run amok? Maybe that gives you warm fuzzies while Obama is piloting the good ship lollypop - but will you be as happy about ubiquitous snooping if and when the Republican get back in? Have you really thought this through? At all? Can you see past your partisan fit-throwing to examine the real principles involved here?

Run amok? You don't know that, you don't know the facts, nor do I. You've made a judgment based on your emotions and hate of government. Both a comment on your character and (lack of) intelligence.

 

[asterism]

He doesn't KNOW any operators. He's an IT guy.. The Rambo stuff happens waaaay down the hall.. You watch too much Burn Notice.. Where EVERYONE in Miami South Beach is a spook field agent. (and some good-looking ones there are).

He really did NOT HAVE an option to stay in the US. Even going to Congress would have ended up with him held "indefinately" and without process. No Congressman is gonna harbor someone like that.

If you're saying that IT folks in the CIA and the NSA do not know any former operators and are ignorant of whistleblowing options spelled out to them in their security briefings as well as their supervisors' off the record counseling then I'm not sure what to tell you.

--says someone who has worked with both the CIA and the NSA.

Well good then.. We have some similiarities in our resumes. So you're smart enough to know the options.. Intel and Classified is NOT covered in standard WhistleBlower acts. There is a separate whistleblower act that allows you to:

1) Discuss your grievance with the Chief of Govt Security in whatever org pays your check. Whereupon your clearances will be stripped and your ass will be out the door that day under ARMED guard. No ability to discuss the reason for your dismissal..

2) Contact a Congressperson on a House/Senate Intelligience Committee. Try to find a SINGLE person in that group TODAY that wants to open Pandoras Box. You and your children for generations will be visited by innumerable agencies suggesting you keep your mouth. You employer would likely be contacted and see the results of #1.

Off the record counseling? They are not gonna waste time justifying a $40B domestic spying program with you and try to comfort your fears.. Are you f-ing kidding me?

So after you pick up your crap in the parking lot and decide to contact the press, there will be government Lincolns (or whatever the vehicle of choice is today, maybe Chevy Volts) parked outside your house BEFORE you come home..

OPTIONS??? You know better than that... Sure -- I'll go tell Diane Feinstein.. The person who keeps insisting they've done nothing wrong..

You're misinformed about what happens to people that voice concerns. Also, there was no need for him to go public unless he was looking for personal gain. If all he wanted to do was get the information out there, that was done before anyone knew who "Ed Snowden" was. This guy wants money and fame.

I'd be more sympathetic if he also leaked details about his previous attempts to address this situation. But he didn't even try did he?

 

[asterism]

Sorry Portland (I've dropped the Odd-Dude since you're such a concret thinker, Portland seems most appropriate) you're as usual full of shit. It is a CRIME and a Felony.

So what? I mean, really - let's say we all agree it was a crime and he should be prosecuted (or maybe you'd rather torture him yourself, or pee on his head, or something) or whatever. The thing is, Snowden isn't the story here. It's what he revealed that is the issue.

THE THREAD IS ALL ABOUT SNOWDEN, YOU MORON!

And what do you think about that? Do you care that our government is creating a surveillance state run amok? Maybe that gives you warm fuzzies while Obama is piloting the good ship lollypop - but will you be as happy about ubiquitous snooping if and when the Republican get back in? Have you really thought this through? At all? Can you see past your partisan fit-throwing to examine the real principles involved here?

Run amok? You don't know that, you don't know the facts, nor do I. You've made a judgment based on your emotions and hate of government. Both a comment on your character and (lack of) intelligence.

NSA operators passing around private phone calls between soldiers and their spouses certainly qualifies as "run amok, don't you think?

 

[Indofred]

BBC News - US NSA 'probed fewer than 300 phone calls'

The US government searched for detailed information on fewer than 300 phone numbers last year, according to a government paper....

...The paper repeats assertions by administration spokesmen that NSA email and telephone data-collection programmes helped disrupt "dozens of potential terrorist plots here in the homeland and in more than 20 countries around the world".

No details about the plots or the countries involved are revealed.

They collected million of bits of info they didn't even look at but 300 intercepts managed to uncover dozens of plots in 20 countries.

What's that smell?

Ah, bullshit.

 

[Katzndogz]

The information they are collecting has nothing to do with disrupting attacks. That's just an excuse. The information they are collecting is so the government can identify and target whoever they want to.

 

[dblack]

The information they are collecting has nothing to do with disrupting attacks. That's just an excuse. The information they are collecting is so the government can identify and target whoever they want to.

I doubt that's the acknowledged intent of most, if any, of the proponents of the policy. But that's how it will inevitably be used.

 

[Indofred]

Turkey and Russia react with fury to G20 spying revelations | World news | guardian.co.uk

So much for only targeting terrorists.

 

[asterism]

Turkey and Russia react with fury to G20 spying revelations | World news | guardian.co.uk

So much for only targeting terrorists.

So much for Snowden being concerned about protecting our Constitution.

 

[Contumacious]

Turkey and Russia react with fury to G20 spying revelations | World news | guardian.co.uk

So much for only targeting terrorists.

So much for Snowden being concerned about protecting our Constitution.

HUH? W T F?

"our" like in ........Venezuela's? Cuba's?

.

 

[Indofred]

Turkey and Russia react with fury to G20 spying revelations | World news | guardian.co.uk

So much for only targeting terrorists.

So much for Snowden being concerned about protecting our Constitution.

The NSA have been caught in yet another lie over this affair.
Shouldn't you be more concerned as to what else they've been up to?

We now know they've been spying on governments so the 'terrorist' claim is a crock of whatever for starters.

It's a very small step from a lie to alteration of what they find to suit whatever agenda they may have against anyone.
A the moment they claim to be anti terrorist but what happens if you find out they've been monitoring political groups, conservationists or whoever?

I see that coming out as well so hang on to your hats.

 

[asterism]

Turkey and Russia react with fury to G20 spying revelations | World news | guardian.co.uk

So much for only targeting terrorists.

So much for Snowden being concerned about protecting our Constitution.

The NSA have been caught in yet another lie over this affair.
Shouldn't you be more concerned as to what else they've been up to?

We now know they've been spying on governments so the 'terrorist' claim is a crock of whatever for starters.

It's a very small step from a lie to alteration of what they find to suit whatever agenda they may have against anyone.
A the moment they claim to be anti terrorist but what happens if you find out they've been monitoring political groups, conservationists or whoever?

I see that coming out as well so hang on to your hats.

I have no problem with the NSA spying on foreign nations. It's kinda the point. Why is Snowden leaking this tidbit? How does that make us safer?

 

[Indofred]

So much for Snowden being concerned about protecting our Constitution.

The NSA have been caught in yet another lie over this affair.
Shouldn't you be more concerned as to what else they've been up to?

We now know they've been spying on governments so the 'terrorist' claim is a crock of whatever for starters.

It's a very small step from a lie to alteration of what they find to suit whatever agenda they may have against anyone.
A the moment they claim to be anti terrorist but what happens if you find out they've been monitoring political groups, conservationists or whoever?

I see that coming out as well so hang on to your hats.

I have no problem with the NSA spying on foreign nations. It's kinda the point. Why is Snowden leaking this tidbit? How does that make us safer?

It proves the NSA lied to you about their goals and the number of taps.
It also proves the NSA (American government) smashed international law regarding diplomatic immunity. The British were no better for using that information.

When the Russians did this to America, you lot went ape shit but you'll happily do it to others.

It'll be interesting to see what else the NSA have been up to but it looks a lot like Snowdon won't be answering any questions from those he's fucked up the arse as China doesn't look like they'll want to give him up.

I wonder if we'll see NSA or other government officials prosecuted for various things such as lies under oath.

 

[asterism]

The NSA have been caught in yet another lie over this affair.
Shouldn't you be more concerned as to what else they've been up to?

We now know they've been spying on governments so the 'terrorist' claim is a crock of whatever for starters.

It's a very small step from a lie to alteration of what they find to suit whatever agenda they may have against anyone.
A the moment they claim to be anti terrorist but what happens if you find out they've been monitoring political groups, conservationists or whoever?

I see that coming out as well so hang on to your hats.

I have no problem with the NSA spying on foreign nations. It's kinda the point. Why is Snowden leaking this tidbit? How does that make us safer?

It proves the NSA lied to you about their goals and the number of taps.
It also proves the NSA (American government) smashed international law regarding diplomatic immunity. The British were no better for using that information.

When the Russians did this to America, you lot went ape shit but you'll happily do it to others.

It'll be interesting to see what else the NSA have been up to but it looks a lot like Snowdon won't be answering any questions from those he's fucked up the arse as China doesn't look like they'll want to give him up.

I wonder if we'll see NSA or other government officials prosecuted for various things such as lies under oath.

I didn't go apeshit at all about any spying program by a foreign government against ours.

You're correct that China likely won't give him up, he's working for that nation's interests now.

 

[Katzndogz]

It's ironic that China's interests and the interests of the ordinary American citizen would dovetail like this.

 

[flacaltenn]

So much for Snowden being concerned about protecting our Constitution.

The NSA have been caught in yet another lie over this affair.
Shouldn't you be more concerned as to what else they've been up to?

We now know they've been spying on governments so the 'terrorist' claim is a crock of whatever for starters.

It's a very small step from a lie to alteration of what they find to suit whatever agenda they may have against anyone.
A the moment they claim to be anti terrorist but what happens if you find out they've been monitoring political groups, conservationists or whoever?

I see that coming out as well so hang on to your hats.

I have no problem with the NSA spying on foreign nations. It's kinda the point. Why is Snowden leaking this tidbit? How does that make us safer?

1) We have no clue if his statement was "enhanced" by the China govt to make him more valuable.. With all that "state controlled media" -- who knows..

2) It was not a leak.. The big story that we are conducting spy and hacking operations on China have been in the media for years. Four or Five stories were posted on USMB last week from major media..

3) It does zero real damage to acknowledge that we have a US CyberDefense Command. Their pictures, assets, and location are ALL ON GOOGLE....

 

[Indofred]

It's ironic that China's interests and the interests of the ordinary American citizen would dovetail like this.

More so when you consider, China is America's new enemy.
American forces are being moved into Asia and the 'Muslim' threat is slowly being replaced by the Chinese threat.
In a couple of years, it'll all be about "Chinks" instead of "mussies".

The sad thing is, so many people will fall for the latest crap and we'll see anti Chinese posters all over forums.

 

[asterism]

The NSA have been caught in yet another lie over this affair.
Shouldn't you be more concerned as to what else they've been up to?

We now know they've been spying on governments so the 'terrorist' claim is a crock of whatever for starters.

It's a very small step from a lie to alteration of what they find to suit whatever agenda they may have against anyone.
A the moment they claim to be anti terrorist but what happens if you find out they've been monitoring political groups, conservationists or whoever?

I see that coming out as well so hang on to your hats.

I have no problem with the NSA spying on foreign nations. It's kinda the point. Why is Snowden leaking this tidbit? How does that make us safer?

1) We have no clue if his statement was "enhanced" by the China govt to make him more valuable.. With all that "state controlled media" -- who knows..

2) It was not a leak.. The big story that we are conducting spy and hacking operations on China have been in the media for years. Four or Five stories were posted on USMB last week from major media..

3) It does zero real damage to acknowledge that we have a US CyberDefense Command. Their pictures, assets, and location are ALL ON GOOGLE....

The leak I am referencing is this one:

G20 summits: Russia and Turkey react with fury to spying revelations | World news | guardian.co.uk

 

[flacaltenn]

I have no problem with the NSA spying on foreign nations. It's kinda the point. Why is Snowden leaking this tidbit? How does that make us safer?

1) We have no clue if his statement was "enhanced" by the China govt to make him more valuable.. With all that "state controlled media" -- who knows..

2) It was not a leak.. The big story that we are conducting spy and hacking operations on China have been in the media for years. Four or Five stories were posted on USMB last week from major media..

3) It does zero real damage to acknowledge that we have a US CyberDefense Command. Their pictures, assets, and location are ALL ON GOOGLE....

The leak I am referencing is this one:

G20 summits: Russia and Turkey react with fury to spying revelations | World news | guardian.co.uk

If that leak is directly attributed to Snowden, then I am dissappointed by his lack of focus on Civil Liberty in the USA.. Opening a bunch of cans of worms is a truly retarded idea until you've finished the first can.

But the idea that major diplomats are NOT routinely bugged when they travel, is not really new.. That's why every country has a complete ANTI-Espionage squad in their entourage.

The Chinese Prez just changed his hotel at the last moment on his visit here for EXACTLY that reason..

Indignation is great acting and theatre, but it isn't anything that the "big boys" don't know.
Maybe Snowden thinks the value of this to CITIZENS, is to show how pervasively our govt ALREADY surveils friendly parties.

 

[Katzndogz]

Part of Snowden's revelations was that we were spying on Hong Kong, and telling Hong Kong it was the Chinese, which diverted their attention to the Chinese when it was really the United States.

Which goes from expected spying, to spying and lying about it trying to create divisions for Hong Kong that don't exist.

 

[asterism]

1) We have no clue if his statement was "enhanced" by the China govt to make him more valuable.. With all that "state controlled media" -- who knows..

2) It was not a leak.. The big story that we are conducting spy and hacking operations on China have been in the media for years. Four or Five stories were posted on USMB last week from major media..

3) It does zero real damage to acknowledge that we have a US CyberDefense Command. Their pictures, assets, and location are ALL ON GOOGLE....

The leak I am referencing is this one:

G20 summits: Russia and Turkey react with fury to spying revelations | World news | guardian.co.uk

If that leak is directly attributed to Snowden, then I am dissappointed by his lack of focus on Civil Liberty in the USA.. Opening a bunch of cans of worms is a truly retarded idea until you've finished the first can.

But the idea that major diplomats are NOT routinely bugged when they travel, is not really new.. That's why every country has a complete ANTI-Espionage squad in their entourage.

The Chinese Prez just changed his hotel at the last moment on his visit here for EXACTLY that reason..

Indignation is great acting and theatre, but it isn't anything that the "big boys" don't know.
Maybe Snowden thinks the value of this to CITIZENS, is to show how pervasively our govt ALREADY surveils friendly parties.

The Guardian says that Snowden is the source of the leak:

There have often been rumours of this kind of espionage at international conferences, but it is highly unusual for hard evidence to confirm it and spell out the detail. The evidence is contained in documents – classified as top secret – which were uncovered by the NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden and seen by the Guardian. They reveal that during G20 meetings in April and September 2009 GCHQ used what one document calls "ground-breaking intelligence capabilities" to intercept the communications of visiting delegations.

This included:

• Setting up internet cafes where they used an email interception programme and key-logging software to spy on delegates' use of computers;

• Penetrating the security on delegates' BlackBerrys to monitor their email messages and phone calls;

• Supplying 45 analysts with a live round-the-clock summary of who was phoning who at the summit;

• Targeting the Turkish finance minister and possibly 15 others in his party;

• Receiving reports from an NSA attempt to eavesdrop on the Russian leader, Dmitry Medvedev, as his phone calls passed through satellite links to Moscow.

GCHQ intercepted foreign politicians' communications at G20 summits | UK news | The Guardian

All disagreements about what the NSA "should" be doing are valid, and it would be an entirely different case for me if all Snowden did was expose NSA's actions against US citizens. However, he's exposing programs that are quite legal and diplomatically sensitive. The Intelligence "game" is often one of spy vs. spy and while it is suspected and assumed we're all spying on each other, confirming actual details of this activity is espionage and is harmful to our national security.

Snowden is not a civil libertarian hero, he's a turncoat attention whore willing to sell whatever he has for his own personal gain.