Treason or Whistle Blower?

[Katzndogz]

The leak I am referencing is this one:

G20 summits: Russia and Turkey react with fury to spying revelations | World news | guardian.co.uk

If that leak is directly attributed to Snowden, then I am dissappointed by his lack of focus on Civil Liberty in the USA.. Opening a bunch of cans of worms is a truly retarded idea until you've finished the first can.

But the idea that major diplomats are NOT routinely bugged when they travel, is not really new.. That's why every country has a complete ANTI-Espionage squad in their entourage.

The Chinese Prez just changed his hotel at the last moment on his visit here for EXACTLY that reason..

Indignation is great acting and theatre, but it isn't anything that the "big boys" don't know.
Maybe Snowden thinks the value of this to CITIZENS, is to show how pervasively our govt ALREADY surveils friendly parties.

The Guardian says that Snowden is the source of the leak:

There have often been rumours of this kind of espionage at international conferences, but it is highly unusual for hard evidence to confirm it and spell out the detail. The evidence is contained in documents – classified as top secret – which were uncovered by the NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden and seen by the Guardian. They reveal that during G20 meetings in April and September 2009 GCHQ used what one document calls "ground-breaking intelligence capabilities" to intercept the communications of visiting delegations.

This included:

• Setting up internet cafes where they used an email interception programme and key-logging software to spy on delegates' use of computers;

• Penetrating the security on delegates' BlackBerrys to monitor their email messages and phone calls;

• Supplying 45 analysts with a live round-the-clock summary of who was phoning who at the summit;

• Targeting the Turkish finance minister and possibly 15 others in his party;

• Receiving reports from an NSA attempt to eavesdrop on the Russian leader, Dmitry Medvedev, as his phone calls passed through satellite links to Moscow.

GCHQ intercepted foreign politicians' communications at G20 summits | UK news | The Guardian

All disagreements about what the NSA "should" be doing are valid, and it would be an entirely different case for me if all Snowden did was expose NSA's actions against US citizens. However, he's exposing programs that are quite legal and diplomatically sensitive. The Intelligence "game" is often one of spy vs. spy and while it is suspected and assumed we're all spying on each other, confirming actual details of this activity is espionage and is harmful to our national security.

Snowden is not a civil libertarian hero, he's a turncoat attention whore willing to sell whatever he has for his own personal gain.

What kind of gain?

It's not like he gave classified information to a producer so they could make a movie.

Oh wait.

That was obama.

 

[asterism]

If that leak is directly attributed to Snowden, then I am dissappointed by his lack of focus on Civil Liberty in the USA.. Opening a bunch of cans of worms is a truly retarded idea until you've finished the first can.

But the idea that major diplomats are NOT routinely bugged when they travel, is not really new.. That's why every country has a complete ANTI-Espionage squad in their entourage.

The Chinese Prez just changed his hotel at the last moment on his visit here for EXACTLY that reason..

Indignation is great acting and theatre, but it isn't anything that the "big boys" don't know.
Maybe Snowden thinks the value of this to CITIZENS, is to show how pervasively our govt ALREADY surveils friendly parties.

The Guardian says that Snowden is the source of the leak:

There have often been rumours of this kind of espionage at international conferences, but it is highly unusual for hard evidence to confirm it and spell out the detail. The evidence is contained in documents – classified as top secret – which were uncovered by the NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden and seen by the Guardian. They reveal that during G20 meetings in April and September 2009 GCHQ used what one document calls "ground-breaking intelligence capabilities" to intercept the communications of visiting delegations.

This included:

• Setting up internet cafes where they used an email interception programme and key-logging software to spy on delegates' use of computers;

• Penetrating the security on delegates' BlackBerrys to monitor their email messages and phone calls;

• Supplying 45 analysts with a live round-the-clock summary of who was phoning who at the summit;

• Targeting the Turkish finance minister and possibly 15 others in his party;

• Receiving reports from an NSA attempt to eavesdrop on the Russian leader, Dmitry Medvedev, as his phone calls passed through satellite links to Moscow.

GCHQ intercepted foreign politicians' communications at G20 summits | UK news | The Guardian

All disagreements about what the NSA "should" be doing are valid, and it would be an entirely different case for me if all Snowden did was expose NSA's actions against US citizens. However, he's exposing programs that are quite legal and diplomatically sensitive. The Intelligence "game" is often one of spy vs. spy and while it is suspected and assumed we're all spying on each other, confirming actual details of this activity is espionage and is harmful to our national security.

Snowden is not a civil libertarian hero, he's a turncoat attention whore willing to sell whatever he has for his own personal gain.

What kind of gain?

It's not like he gave classified information to a producer so they could make a movie.

Oh wait.

That was obama.

I'm not sure what kind of gain he expects to receive in the long term. Right now he's got fame (that'll lead to book deals) and he's being protected in China.

 

[Wake]

The interview with Lon Snowden (the father) on FOX New's 'The Five' was very interesting.

I'm further convinced that Eric Snowden did the right thing, and we don't know the extent of the unsettling things he knows.

 

[Wry Catcher]

The interview with Lon Snowden (the father) on FOX New's 'The Five' was very interesting.

I'm further convinced that Eric Snowden did the right thing, and we don't know the extent of the unsettling things he knows.

How can you be convinced Snowden did the right thing. There is still much more to be learned before anyone can be sure of anything in this matter.

 

[Wake]

The interview with Lon Snowden (the father) on FOX New's 'The Five' was very interesting.

I'm further convinced that Eric Snowden did the right thing, and we don't know the extent of the unsettling things he knows.

How can you be convinced Snowden did the right thing. There is still much more to be learned before anyone can be sure of anything in this matter.

While there is more to know, him willing to risk his future to reveal our government's surveillance schemes says much of his character.

 

[asterism]

The interview with Lon Snowden (the father) on FOX New's 'The Five' was very interesting.

I'm further convinced that Eric Snowden did the right thing, and we don't know the extent of the unsettling things he knows.

How can you be convinced Snowden did the right thing. There is still much more to be learned before anyone can be sure of anything in this matter.

While there is more to know, him willing to risk his future to reveal our government's surveillance schemes says much of his character.

Undermining security, leaking to foreign press, and hiding out in a communist country says all I need to know about his character. It's not like he exposed a program he thought was wrong. He fled to China and disseminated many damaging documents. I'm sorry if you think it's a bad thing to spy on Russia and Turkey.

 

[Wake]

How can you be convinced Snowden did the right thing. There is still much more to be learned before anyone can be sure of anything in this matter.

While there is more to know, him willing to risk his future to reveal our government's surveillance schemes says much of his character.

It's not like he exposed a program he thought was wrong.

That is exactly the situation, asterism.

 

[Harry Dresden]

If he's convicted of Treason, every Militia from Texas to New York (yes we exist in New York) will recognize we are living under a Tyranny and resort to the example of Athens, Tennessee, 1946.

Why don't you get your America hating white trash buddys and come take the country back tough guy?

You're too pussy to actually come do anything except play rambo in the woods. We Americans salavate at the thought of you actually showing your faces out in public thinking you're gonna do anything.


Hey The2ndAmendment ......come out and plaaaayyyyyy

two Internet tough guys facing off on each other......who has the popcorn bowl?....

 

[Harry Dresden]

If he's convicted of Treason, every Militia from Texas to New York (yes we exist in New York) will recognize we are living under a Tyranny and resort to the example of Athens, Tennessee, 1946.

No they won't. I disagree with it, but he will be convicted of treason, as any administration would do. And the backwoods redneck militias will continue to post on message boards about how tyrannical the government is, then proceed to beat their wives for forgetting the mustard on their sandwiches.

you must have had a rough childhood to witness shit like that....

 

[asterism]

While there is more to know, him willing to risk his future to reveal our government's surveillance schemes says much of his character.

It's not like he exposed a program he thought was wrong.

That is exactly the situation, asterism.

Don't edit my quotes to remove context.

Why did he leak documents about us spying on Russia and Turkey? Why did he leak information about our counter cyberattacks against China?

That's wrong?

 

[Wake]

It's not like he exposed a program he thought was wrong.

That is exactly the situation, asterism.

Don't edit my quotes to remove context.

Why did he leak documents about us spying on Russia and Turkey? Why did he leak information about our counter cyberattacks against China?

That's wrong?

No one in this thread is arguing that spying on American enemies is wrong (if indeed that is irrefutably true).

However, the issue is of Snowden revealing that our government is also spying on us, Americans. Are we the enemy, asterism?

Would you prefer that people like Snowden who reveal our government's increasingly larger designs ought not to exist? I don't know much of him supposedly revealing documents to China and Russia about our obvious counter-spying and counter-hacking, but I do know that it was right of him to reveal America's path to tyranny and oppression. Now that we know, we can have more debate and discussion to, perhaps, help get us off this dangerous path.

Don't edit my quotes to remove context.

What you said was dishonest. You pretended that he didn't expose a program that he thought was wrong.

The editing rule here is unique from other forums I've been to, and its existence is strange. Next time I will bold the section that deserves criticism, instead.

 

[freedombecki]

There is a great difference when it comes to charging him with the criminal activity he engaged in.

Not really. It won't matter whether they call him a leaker or a whistleblower. The administration is going to do what it's going to do regardless.

He leaked classified info. The non disclosure agreement he signed is clear on the punishment for his crime.

The admin will have nothing to do with it.

He leaked classified info. The non disclosure agreement he signed is clear on the punishment for his crime.

I'm gonna faint. I agree that he committed a crime and broke his word affirmed by his signature.

Not a very happy day for America.

 

[Wake]

Not really. It won't matter whether they call him a leaker or a whistleblower. The administration is going to do what it's going to do regardless.

He leaked classified info. The non disclosure agreement he signed is clear on the punishment for his crime.

The admin will have nothing to do with it.

He leaked classified info. The non disclosure agreement he signed is clear on the punishment for his crime.

I'm gonna faint. I agree that he committed a crime and broke his word affirmed by his signature.

Not a very happy day for America.

Right. No moral argument there at all. And I mean this with respect, in spite of not liking it when people seem to use the "law" as the by-all-end-all approach to everything.

I suppose genocides could happen as well and, even though you know it and that it's wrong, so long as you sign your name on the dotted line, it's wrong of you to dare bring these injustices to light. Where is the morality and freedom in that, becki?

Why do you blame the leaker, instead of the massive damage against our Constitution and the constant lies to us by our own government. Do you trust our government so much that they can do no wrong to the point that all leakers can't be trusted?

Sometimes, becki, leaks are justified.

 

[asterism]

That is exactly the situation, asterism.

Don't edit my quotes to remove context.

Why did he leak documents about us spying on Russia and Turkey? Why did he leak information about our counter cyberattacks against China?

That's wrong?

No one in this thread is arguing that spying on American enemies is wrong (if indeed that is irrefutably true).

However, the issue is of Snowden revealing that our government is also spying on us, Americans. Are we the enemy, asterism?

Would you prefer that people like Snowden who reveal our government's increasingly larger designs ought not to exist? I don't know much of him supposedly revealing documents to China and Russia about our obvious counter-spying and counter-hacking, but I do know that it was right of him to reveal America's path to tyranny and oppression. Now that we know, we can have more debate and discussion to, perhaps, help get us off this dangerous path.

Don't edit my quotes to remove context.

What you said was dishonest. You pretended that he didn't expose a program that he thought was wrong.

The editing rule here is unique from other forums I've been to, and its existence is strange. Next time I will bold the section that deserves criticism, instead.

I'll clarify:

Undermining security, leaking to foreign press, and hiding out in a communist country says all I need to know about his character. It's not like he simply exposed a program he thought was wrong and left it at that. He fled to China and disseminated many damaging documents. I'm sorry if you think it's a bad thing to spy on Russia and Turkey and I'm sorry if you think meeting cyberattacks with counter-cyberattacks is bad.

This guy is no hero, he's a grandstanding traitor with one possible scintilla of redeeming value. As I have stated previously, there were better options to deal with PRISM than to flee to a communist country and leak to the foreign press.

 

[asterism]

He leaked classified info. The non disclosure agreement he signed is clear on the punishment for his crime.

The admin will have nothing to do with it.

He leaked classified info. The non disclosure agreement he signed is clear on the punishment for his crime.

I'm gonna faint. I agree that he committed a crime and broke his word affirmed by his signature.

Not a very happy day for America.

Right. No moral argument there at all. And I mean this with respect, in spite of not liking it when people seem to use the "law" as the by-all-end-all approach to everything.

I suppose genocides could happen as well and, even though you know it and that it's wrong, so long as you sign your name on the dotted line, it's wrong of you to dare bring these injustices to light. Where is the morality and freedom in that, becki?

Why do you blame the leaker, instead of the massive damage against our Constitution and the constant lies to us by our own government. Do you trust our government so much that they can do no wrong to the point that all leakers can't be trusted?

Sometimes, becki, leaks are justified.

Are you a fan of Julian Assange?

 

[Wake]

Sometimes the channels make it so that it's impossible.

The people with these kinds of power would probably make it impossible for him to reveal to us the truth.

No, sometimes American bureaucrats need a good, cold slap in the face to keep America honest. These politicians do everything they can to deceive and control us.

If we keep on this path, we may witness a new civil war between the deceivers and the deceived.

 

[Wry Catcher]

He leaked classified info. The non disclosure agreement he signed is clear on the punishment for his crime.

The admin will have nothing to do with it.

He leaked classified info. The non disclosure agreement he signed is clear on the punishment for his crime.

I'm gonna faint. I agree that he committed a crime and broke his word affirmed by his signature.

Not a very happy day for America.

Right. No moral argument there at all. And I mean this with respect, in spite of not liking it when people seem to use the "law" as the by-all-end-all approach to everything.

I suppose genocides could happen as well and, even though you know it and that it's wrong, so long as you sign your name on the dotted line, it's wrong of you to dare bring these injustices to light. Where is the morality and freedom in that, becki?

Why do you blame the leaker, instead of the massive damage against our Constitution and the constant lies to us by our own government. Do you trust our government so much that they can do no wrong to the point that all leakers can't be trusted?

Sometimes, becki, leaks are justified.

There is NO Right to Privacy in the Bill of Rights or anywhere else in the COTUS. So, your allegation of "massive damage" against it is wrong. Such a right is implied in the Bill of Rights but is not explicit. [to digress, such a claim inferred from the B. of Rights would open a debate with the Originalists. Imagine the response from Scalia with Thomas concurring]

 

[Wake]

It's just odd to me to see some people angry with the man who tells us the truth of our government, who would rather be happy and content being lied to on an endless basis. No, you couldn't care less if America was becoming something out of the Matrix, or that our government hides murders at the hands of American soldiers.

If you find shelter in this web of deceit, you're bound to get tangled in it.

 

[Wake]

He leaked classified info. The non disclosure agreement he signed is clear on the punishment for his crime.

I'm gonna faint. I agree that he committed a crime and broke his word affirmed by his signature.

Not a very happy day for America.

Right. No moral argument there at all. And I mean this with respect, in spite of not liking it when people seem to use the "law" as the by-all-end-all approach to everything.

I suppose genocides could happen as well and, even though you know it and that it's wrong, so long as you sign your name on the dotted line, it's wrong of you to dare bring these injustices to light. Where is the morality and freedom in that, becki?

Why do you blame the leaker, instead of the massive damage against our Constitution and the constant lies to us by our own government. Do you trust our government so much that they can do no wrong to the point that all leakers can't be trusted?

Sometimes, becki, leaks are justified.

There is NO Right to Privacy in the Bill of Rights or anywhere else in the COTUS. So, your allegation of "massive damage" against it is wrong. Such a right is implied in the Bill of Rights but is not explicit. [to digress, such a claim inferred from the B. of Rights would open a debate with the Originalists. Imagine the response from Scalia with Thomas concurring]

So you're saying that American citizens have no right to privacy. Why does it feel like I'm speaking with Russian and Chinese nationalists? It's not like American citizens ought to have privacy. Why not? Why not start doing more of what China and Russia does. I mean, it's not like there is any right to privacy in the Bill of Rights.

 

[asterism]

It's just odd to me to see some people angry with the man who tells us the truth of our government, who would rather be happy and content being lied to on an endless basis. No, you couldn't care less if America was becoming something out of the Matrix, or that our government hides murders at the hands of American soldiers.

If you find shelter in this web of deceit, you're bound to get tangled in it.

If you lie down with dogs, you get fleas. The great crusade for Snowden against NSA and/or Obama for massive data collection on US citizens will not be good. It'll condone further damaging links like the ones about us spying on Turkey while doing absolutely nothing to shut down PRISM.