TULIP (God calls some to atheism)

[presonorek]

The stupidity of the human mind has to be punished with destruction whenever it tries to aspire to divine wisdom in its own strength. It is a deadly temptation to which we are all prone. There is hardly anyone who does not think sometimes, ‘if my salvation comes only from God’s election, what proof have I of that election?’ When this thought dominates an individual, he’ll be permanently miserable, in terrible torment or mental confusion. The fact that these thoughts deprive man of peace and rest in God is proof of their error.

Institutes of the Christian Religion Book 3 Chapter 24.

 

[Meriweather]

The stupidity of the human mind has to be punished with destruction whenever it tries to aspire to divine wisdom in its own strength. It is a deadly temptation to which we are all prone. There is hardly anyone who does not think sometimes, ‘if my salvation comes only from God’s election, what proof have I of that election?’ When this thought dominates an individual, he’ll be permanently miserable, in terrible torment or mental confusion. The fact that these thoughts deprive man of peace and rest in God is proof of their error.

Institutes of the Christian Religion Book 3 Chapter 24.

Is this Calvinism? If so, you might try a sect that teaches that we are made in the image and likeness of God; that each of us has that divine spark; that we can find Christ in each other. We trust that sins are forgiven. Calvin must have been a true worrywart, and a man of little faith.

 

[presonorek]

The stupidity of the human mind has to be punished with destruction whenever it tries to aspire to divine wisdom in its own strength. It is a deadly temptation to which we are all prone. There is hardly anyone who does not think sometimes, ‘if my salvation comes only from God’s election, what proof have I of that election?’ When this thought dominates an individual, he’ll be permanently miserable, in terrible torment or mental confusion. The fact that these thoughts deprive man of peace and rest in God is proof of their error.

Institutes of the Christian Religion Book 3 Chapter 24.

Is this Calvinism? If so, you might try a sect that teaches that we are made in the image and likeness of God; that each of us has that divine spark; that we can find Christ in each other. We trust that sins are forgiven. Calvin must have been a true worrywart, and a man of little faith.

This whole thread is about Calvinism. I consider John Calvin to be the greatest theologian of all times. Who do you consider to be a more accomplished theologian? Martin Luther? Thomas Aquinas? Saint Augustine? John Wycliffe?

 

[Meriweather]

This whole thread is about Calvinism. I consider John Calvin to be the greatest theologian of all times. Who do you consider to be a more accomplished theologian? Martin Luther? Thomas Aquinas? Saint Augustine? John Wycliffe?

While reading commentaries from many rabbis, priests, ministers, I tend to remain fully grounded in the words of Christ--everything is measured from that point. I greatly appreciate rabbinical and Jewish scholars and credit them for my understanding of the Old Testament, its cultures, history, and languages.

Why do you credit Calvin as the greatest theologian. What do you believe is his strongest point. "Total Depravity" had me dismissing him from the beginning. It wars with Jesus' own comment that we are the salt of the earth.

 

[BreezeWood]

I say go and enjoy your atheism. Be all the atheist you can be. Because I am really enjoying your rationalizations of how atheism has made you happier.

You are extremely wrong. I was way way way much happier when I was a believing Christian. Atheism is a much more miserable existence. Where did you get the idea that atheists are happier than Christians?

Personally I was just happier as a Christian. I also observe Christians to be much happier than atheists.

.

Personally I was just happier as a Christian. I also observe Christians to be much happier than atheists.

.
are addicts truly happier or do you deny that is there euphoria ... and used improperly as how their religion construes their adherents.

as though your only alternative is atheism - from christianity, christian.

 

[presonorek]

This whole thread is about Calvinism. I consider John Calvin to be the greatest theologian of all times. Who do you consider to be a more accomplished theologian? Martin Luther? Thomas Aquinas? Saint Augustine? John Wycliffe?

While reading commentaries from many rabbis, priests, ministers, I tend to remain fully grounded in the words of Christ--everything is measured from that point. I greatly appreciate rabbinical and Jewish scholars and credit them for my understanding of the Old Testament, its cultures, history, and languages.

Why do you credit Calvin as the greatest theologian. What do you believe is his strongest point. "Total Depravity" had me dismissing him from the beginning. It wars with Jesus' own comment that we are the salt of the earth.

Oh wow! Even evangelical Christians believe in total depravity. I thought it was the limited atonement concept that caused so much controversy.

 

[BreezeWood]

The Christians that bother me are the sincere ones. They are just setting themselves up to be conned by all sorts of people.

Those who bother me most are the ones who sincerely believe they know what someone believes, and how and why they came to that belief. Your fear for me (and other people of faith) is unfounded. Be not afraid...

I am not afraid of you. You reject the parts of the Bible that you do not like.

You misspelled... "we reject your silly understanding of the Bible." Maybe if you didn't attend Westboro Baptist Church you wouldn't have accepted such silly interpretations without thinking for yourself.

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you wouldn't have accepted such silly interpretations without thinking for yourself.

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such as believing the - creator of the universe - lived in mary's womb for 9 months ... you are who is afraid without your makebelieve and self serving messiah.

Yep. Such as the Creator of existence choosing to be born into this world to testify to the truth and suffer death to reconcile justice with mercy. Maybe if you and vasuderatorrent had shared in Christ's experience in suffering death - as He intended - you would have been humbled enough to die to self too and see reality.

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- such as believing the - creator of the universe - lived in mary's womb for 9 months ...

Yep. Such as the Creator of existence choosing to be born into this world to testify to the truth and suffer death to reconcile justice with mercy. Maybe if you and vasuderatorrent had shared in Christ's experience in suffering death - as He intended - you would have been humbled enough to die to self too and see reality.

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was it an allegory ...

how is being crucified a reconcile of justice - then, the crucifiers writing a book 3 centuries latter what a good guy they were. bing.

too bad they were not left to write the memoir themselves.

 

[Meriweather]

Oh wow! Even evangelical Christians believe in total depravity. I thought it was the limited atonement concept that caused so much controversy.

Thankfully, it missed the greatest majority of Christians (Catholics and Orthodox). We stick with salt of the earth and sins are forgiven.

 

[norwegen]

Christian leaders insist that believers must be "broken." They must die to themselves and all that, whatever that means, exactly. No wonder no one's going to church.

On the contrary, Christians are called to an abundant life.

 

[presonorek]

This whole thread is about Calvinism. I consider John Calvin to be the greatest theologian of all times. Who do you consider to be a more accomplished theologian? Martin Luther? Thomas Aquinas? Saint Augustine? John Wycliffe?

While reading commentaries from many rabbis, priests, ministers, I tend to remain fully grounded in the words of Christ--everything is measured from that point. I greatly appreciate rabbinical and Jewish scholars and credit them for my understanding of the Old Testament, its cultures, history, and languages.

Why do you credit Calvin as the greatest theologian. What do you believe is his strongest point. "Total Depravity" had me dismissing him from the beginning. It wars with Jesus' own comment that we are the salt of the earth.

All of the important things in life are already decided for us. We cant decide when we are born. We can’t choose our parents. For the first 18 years of our life we really only get to choose things if our parents allow us to choose things. The values we have are all a product of our environment that was imposed upon us by external forces. I suppose the concept of divine Providence or predestination resonates with me based on similarities to my observable surroundings. It also never made sense to me even as a child why God was obligated to give us salvation when we recited a “sinners prayer” and had a sincere heart. It just seems like an all powerful God should have the right to refuse if He wanted. I was raised an evangelical Christian. I was too curious of a creature to accept our shallow traditions. John Calvin goes a lot more in depth than the “turn or burn” nonsense that I learned as a kid. Evangelical Christianity is hedonistic at its core. However, they let us have Bibles. I actually read that shit. The adults around me just hugged and kissed their Bibles.

I am rambling. The concept of predestination just strikes a chord and intrigues me. It sounds so much more realistic than the shallow garbage I learned growing up. I really wish I would have been raised Presbyterian.

 

[.oldschool]

I consider John Calvin to be the greatest theologian of all times

He did a good job on you.

 

[presonorek]

I say go and enjoy your atheism. Be all the atheist you can be. Because I am really enjoying your rationalizations of how atheism has made you happier.

You are extremely wrong. I was way way way much happier when I was a believing Christian. Atheism is a much more miserable existence. Where did you get the idea that atheists are happier than Christians?

Personally I was just happier as a Christian. I also observe Christians to be much happier than atheists.

.

Personally I was just happier as a Christian. I also observe Christians to be much happier than atheists.

.
are addicts truly happier or do you deny that is there euphoria ... and used improperly as how their religion construes their adherents.

as though your only alternative is atheism - from christianity, christian.

I am having a hard time deciphering what you are saying. I think you are referencing euphoria that is experienced through religion and denying that euphoria as happiness. I would disagree. Religion offers a high that is unparalleled with a high you get from drugs. In the Bible it is referred to as “a peace that passes all understanding”.

 

[presonorek]

I consider John Calvin to be the greatest theologian of all times

He did a good job on you.

Yeah. If he wasn’t all dead and stuff I would send him a thank you card.

 

[Grumblenuts]

I don't recall Jesus mentioning the dinosaurs within all that allegory. There had to be at least one Dino in that massive list of begets, begats, and begots!

 

[presonorek]

I don't recall Jesus mentioning the dinosaurs within all that allegory. There had to be at least one Dino in that massive list of begets, begats, and begots!

What relevance is this? Dinosaur wasn’t even a word until 1841.

 

[norwegen]

I don't recall Jesus mentioning the dinosaurs within all that allegory. There had to be at least one Dino in that massive list of begets, begats, and begots!

What relevance is this? Dinosaur wasn’t even a word until 1850.

Bible times are still happening. They don't end until Jesus comes back.

 

[presonorek]

I don't recall Jesus mentioning the dinosaurs within all that allegory. There had to be at least one Dino in that massive list of begets, begats, and begots!

What relevance is this? Dinosaur wasn’t even a word until 1850.

Bible times are still happening. They don't end until Jesus comes back.

The word dinosaur was invented in 1841. Jesus couldn’t have mentioned dinosaurs. It would have been impossible.

 

[ding]

Which one am I? The liars who pretends God is real? Or the sincere one - who believes outlandish claims for the purpose of feeling good - who is setting himself up to be conned by all sorts of people?

Do I seem like I am vulnerable to manipulation? Cause your manipulation doesn't seem to be working on me right now, now does it?

But let me flip that around... how do you know you aren't the one being manipulated? How do you know you aren't the one that can't see reality? I mean after all, you have already admitted to being bamboozled by one group, right? How do you know you aren't being bamboozled by another? Seems like you are the one with a track record of being manipulated.

Not sure how you came to your conclusion that I reject Christianity and parts of the Bible. Maybe if you understood Catholic thought you wouldn't have made that error or been bamboozled and manipulated by both groups.

I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. One of those things is being OK with you pursuing the intellectually stimulating dead end of atheism. I say go and enjoy your atheism. Be all the atheist you can be. Because I am really enjoying your rationalizations of how atheism has made you happier. Because everyone knows that people show how happy they are about something by criticizing the path they aren't taking. Nothing says you love what you are doing by talking about what you aren't doing.

As far as I can tell you reject the parts of the Bible that are stupid.

You aren’t pretending. You reject the God in the Bible with a vengeance. So you are an atheist just like me. We are both atheists of Zeus and atheists of Yahweh. I’m not able to decipher which god you follow. You have all the attributes of a free thinking atheist as far as I can tell.

Do you believe a man can live in a big fish for 3 days? Do you believe snakes talk? Do you believe donkeys talk? Do you believe Jesus was dead for 3 days and then came back alive and is still living today? Do you believe Enoch is still living today?

I’d venture to say that you would say no to at least one of these things. That makes you a free thinker with the ability to think rationally.

So you are neither a lying Christian nor a stupid Christian. There is nothing Christian about you at all.

Arguing that I am an atheist like you because I don't believe in Zeus is a dumb argument but if it makes you feel better to believe that I am an atheist like you, rock on.

Again... if you understood Catholic thought you wouldn't have made the error that I reject parts of the Bible. I read the Bible for meaning. I don't read it stupidly. Do you seriously believe the account of Jonah was meant to be read literally?

To be Christian all one needs to believe is that God so loved man that he chose to be born into this world to testify to the truth and suffered death to reconcile justice with mercy. I believe that. So apparently there must be something Christian about me after all but if it makes you feel better to believe there is nothing Christian about me, I'm good with that.

 

[norwegen]

I don't recall Jesus mentioning the dinosaurs within all that allegory. There had to be at least one Dino in that massive list of begets, begats, and begots!

What relevance is this? Dinosaur wasn’t even a word until 1850.

Bible times are still happening. They don't end until Jesus comes back.

The word dinosaur was invented in 1841. Jesus couldn’t have mentioned dinosaurs. It would have been impossible.

"On that day, these big reptilian bones will cry from the ground."

~ Mesoarchia 12:42

 

[ding]

I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. One of those things is being OK with you pursuing the intellectually stimulating dead end of atheism. I say go and enjoy your atheism. Be all the atheist you can be. Because I am really enjoying your rationalizations of how atheism has made you happier. Because everyone knows that people show how happy they are about something by criticizing the path they aren't taking. Nothing says you love what you are doing by talking about what you aren't doing.

You are extremely wrong. I was way way way much happier when I was a believing Christian. Atheism is a much more miserable existence. Where did you get the idea that atheists are happier than Christians?

Personally I was just happier as a Christian. I also observe Christians to be much happier than atheists.

Do atheists not have a sarcasm detector?

Your apparent mode of operation is to criticize what you don't believe to arrive at what you do believe without ever having to examine what you believe. You don't have beliefs you have arguments against beliefs. You might as well be building your castle in sand.

Again... God is reality and the only way anyone will ever see reality is to die to self. When you can do that you will see how God has worked in your life.

This whole thread is an extension of Calvinistic doctrine. If Calvinism is true then atheism would be a likely outcome for those who God chooses not to save.

You don’t seem familiar with Calvinism. You fashioned this thread into a topic that you liked better.

I'm not sure I would trust you to represent the beliefs of any religious sect. Be that as it may, I'm Catholic, so I don't share that belief. The choice is yours. You control your destiny. To believe otherwise would be an external locus of control and that's not a good look.