U.S. government sues to block vouchers in some Louisiana school systems

[Ernie S.]

Frankly low income is not the problem, but a result of the problem. The problem seems to be a cultural thing. Damed if I know why people choose to have their grandchildren grow up in poor, crime ridden neighborhoods.

 

[Flopper]

Lot of folks in this thread should read about the specific voucher program in question in the article, namely the Louisiana voucher system enacted under Bobby Jindal.

Successful voucher programs do exist, but Louisiana's is not one of them. The program was created as a fairly transparent way to funnel public funds into religious schools. It was intentionally created with almost no oversight. Oversight mechanisms had to be created when a church in Ruston opened a "school" in their meeting hall using dvd's and tv's as the educators. On top of that, the legislature was so desperate to get money into the hands of religious schools that they found, to their horror, that a newly formed madrassa in New Orleans would qualify for public support money.

On top of that, Jindal couldn't be bothered to read his own state constitution and violated minimal funding clauses that immediately put the program in trouble.

When it all shook out, parents also found out to their horror a lot of the best private schools in town wouldn't take in the students. To qualify for a voucher a student had to come from a terribly weak school and there was no incentive to accept those kids at all.

I understood the idea behind the law. Louisiana's schools are an absolute train wreck. I send my own kid to a private school here despite the fact it costs me a pretty penny each year. If I weren't leaving this state soon, my daughter would have followed right into private school once she came of age too.

83% of Louisiana private schools are religiously affiliated. The ratio of whites to blacks (minorities) are 13 to 1.

Louisiana has a long history of support for private schools. Long before race became an issue parents strongly supported Catholic schools particularly in south Louisiana. White parents began abandoning public schools in the 70's as integration brought blacks in ever increasing numbers into previously all white schools.

Vouchers in Louisiana will never enjoy wide spread usage because the vast majority of private schools are religiously based. By that I mean religion is part of the curriculum, school prayer in classes and religious doctrine is taught in the classroom and parent want it that way. In fact religious based education is a primary reason many parents choose private schools. Secondly, most of these schools don't want any part of the voucher system because they don't want the government regulating the school, which is inevitable if state money flows through the parents to these schools. Lastly, much of the appeal of private school is their ability to pick and choose their students which becomes difficult if not impossible with vouchers.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

What you're saying is true. An interesting side effect is there's a self fulfilling prophecy going on there too: Parents involved in their kids educations are horrified at the percentage of problem children at public schools. They pull their kids, increasing the overall percentage of trouble kids at public schools.

 

[Unkotare]

Schools that accept vouchers should be required to give the same tests as public schools.

.........

Typical liberal...

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Schools that accept vouchers should be required to give the same tests as public schools.

.........

Typical liberal...

Wait, why not?

We want accountability for tax payer dollars don't we?

 

[Unkotare]

Schools that accept vouchers should be required to give the same tests as public schools.

.........

Typical liberal...

Wait, why not?

We want accountability for tax payer dollars don't we?

Enforced uniformity is not synonymous with accountability.

Lefties bitch about standardized testing but can't shake their programmed insistence on centralized control.

 

[Flopper]

Schools that accept vouchers should be required to give the same tests as public schools.

.........

Typical liberal...

Wait, why not?

We want accountability for tax payer dollars don't we?

Enforced uniformity is not synonymous with accountability.

Lefties bitch about standardized testing but can't shake their programmed insistence on centralized control.

If there're academically better than public schools then they should be willing to prove it. I've attended private school and have had one of my kids in private school. Once your kid meets the requirements for a private school, you're likely to get a sales pitch worthy of a used car salesman. Parents should be able to compare student achievement particularly if they're using tax payer money to pay tuition..

 

[bripat9643]

Schools that accept vouchers should be required to give the same tests as public schools.

.........

Typical liberal...

Wait, why not?

We want accountability for tax payer dollars don't we?

Enforced uniformity is not synonymous with accountability.

Lefties bitch about standardized testing but can't shake their programmed insistence on centralized control.

Leftists bitch about standardized testing only when it's designed to hold the government school teachers accountable.

 

[bripat9643]

Schools that accept vouchers should be required to give the same tests as public schools.

.........

Typical liberal...

Wait, why not?

We want accountability for tax payer dollars don't we?

Enforced uniformity is not synonymous with accountability.

Lefties bitch about standardized testing but can't shake their programmed insistence on centralized control.

If there're academically better than public schools then they should be willing to prove it. I've attended private school and have had one of my kids in private school. Once your kid meets the requirements for a private school, you're likely to get a sales pitch worthy of a used car salesman. Parents should be able to compare student achievement particularly if they're using tax payer money to pay tuition..

Parents are more than qualified to determine if their kids are getting a good education. That's why they are so eager to take their kids out of the government schools.

 

[Flopper]

Schools that accept vouchers should be required to give the same tests as public schools.

.........

Typical liberal...

Wait, why not?

We want accountability for tax payer dollars don't we?

Enforced uniformity is not synonymous with accountability.

Lefties bitch about standardized testing but can't shake their programmed insistence on centralized control.

Leftists bitch about standardized testing only when it's designed to hold the government school teachers accountable.

If we're going to require that public schools give a standardize to evaluate student performance, we should certainly require that private schools taking tax payer money do likewise. Parents may or not be able compare but the point is the tax payer has no way of knowing his money is being spent wisely unless there is an objective measure of performance.

 

[bripat9643]

Schools that accept vouchers should be required to give the same tests as public schools.

.........

Typical liberal...

Wait, why not?

We want accountability for tax payer dollars don't we?

Enforced uniformity is not synonymous with accountability.

Lefties bitch about standardized testing but can't shake their programmed insistence on centralized control.

Leftists bitch about standardized testing only when it's designed to hold the government school teachers accountable.

If we're going to require that public schools give a standardize to evaluate student performance, we should certainly require that private schools taking tax payer money do likewise. Parents may or not be able compare but the point is the tax payer has no way of knowing his money is being spent wisely unless there is an objective measure of performance.

No, we shouldn't. People don't have a choice about putting their kids in public schools. The only way to get any kind of accountability is by measuring results. However, by definition, they do have a choice about putting their kids in private schools. Accountability is enforced by parents choosing to take their kids elsewhere when those schools don't perform. That's the market method of making providers accountable. Imposing government solutions on private enterprise is counter productive.

 

[Unkotare]

Schools that accept vouchers should be required to give the same tests as public schools.

.........

Typical liberal...

Wait, why not?

We want accountability for tax payer dollars don't we?

Enforced uniformity is not synonymous with accountability.

Lefties bitch about standardized testing but can't shake their programmed insistence on centralized control.

If there're academically better than public schools then they should be willing to prove it......

Typical liberal to think that "prove it" can only mean mimicking failed liberal approaches in every detail.

 

[Flopper]

.........

Typical liberal...

Wait, why not?

We want accountability for tax payer dollars don't we?

Enforced uniformity is not synonymous with accountability.

Lefties bitch about standardized testing but can't shake their programmed insistence on centralized control.

Leftists bitch about standardized testing only when it's designed to hold the government school teachers accountable.

If we're going to require that public schools give a standardize to evaluate student performance, we should certainly require that private schools taking tax payer money do likewise. Parents may or not be able compare but the point is the tax payer has no way of knowing his money is being spent wisely unless there is an objective measure of performance.

No, we shouldn't. People don't have a choice about putting their kids in public schools. The only way to get any kind of accountability is by measuring results. However, by definition, they do have a choice about putting their kids in private schools. Accountability is enforced by parents choosing to take their kids elsewhere when those schools don't perform. That's the market method of making providers accountable. Imposing government solutions on private enterprise is counter productive.

You might have a point if the parent could really determine the quality of the education at the private school before using tax payer money to pay tuition. You are also disregarding the fact that one of the primary reasons parents choose a private school is to give their kids an education founded on their religious faith. I don't think I'm alone in not wanting to see my tax dollars go to pay for religious education.

 

[Unkotare]

Wait, why not?

We want accountability for tax payer dollars don't we?

Enforced uniformity is not synonymous with accountability.

Lefties bitch about standardized testing but can't shake their programmed insistence on centralized control.

Leftists bitch about standardized testing only when it's designed to hold the government school teachers accountable.

If we're going to require that public schools give a standardize to evaluate student performance, we should certainly require that private schools taking tax payer money do likewise. Parents may or not be able compare but the point is the tax payer has no way of knowing his money is being spent wisely unless there is an objective measure of performance.

No, we shouldn't. People don't have a choice about putting their kids in public schools. The only way to get any kind of accountability is by measuring results. However, by definition, they do have a choice about putting their kids in private schools. Accountability is enforced by parents choosing to take their kids elsewhere when those schools don't perform. That's the market method of making providers accountable. Imposing government solutions on private enterprise is counter productive.

You might have a point if the parent could really determine the quality of the education at the private school before using tax payer money to pay tuition. You are also disregarding the fact that one of the primary reasons parents choose a private school is to give their kids an education founded on their religious faith. I don't think I'm alone in not wanting to see my tax dollars go to pay for religious education.

You are all for it as long as the religion in question is worship of the state above all.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The purpose of the Louisiana voucher system is to destroy what remains of the the public school system and move the remainder of the students into private schools. This is a process that began in the 1960's when white parents moved their students into private schools to escape integration. Louisiana has consistently ranked 49th to 50th in their quality of public educations. I suspect that Louisiana will be the first state to abandon public education in favor of private schools and will probably provide some of the best education in the country, for those that can afford it.

Of course, in all this concern for the institution over the children, you forgot to address the question of whether or not the voucher system will provide poor black children a better education. It's like the kids themselves are irrelevant to you, or something. Hmmm.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Wait, why not?

We want accountability for tax payer dollars don't we?

Enforced uniformity is not synonymous with accountability.

Lefties bitch about standardized testing but can't shake their programmed insistence on centralized control.

Leftists bitch about standardized testing only when it's designed to hold the government school teachers accountable.

If we're going to require that public schools give a standardize to evaluate student performance, we should certainly require that private schools taking tax payer money do likewise. Parents may or not be able compare but the point is the tax payer has no way of knowing his money is being spent wisely unless there is an objective measure of performance.

No, we shouldn't. People don't have a choice about putting their kids in public schools. The only way to get any kind of accountability is by measuring results. However, by definition, they do have a choice about putting their kids in private schools. Accountability is enforced by parents choosing to take their kids elsewhere when those schools don't perform. That's the market method of making providers accountable. Imposing government solutions on private enterprise is counter productive.

You might have a point if the parent could really determine the quality of the education at the private school before using tax payer money to pay tuition. You are also disregarding the fact that one of the primary reasons parents choose a private school is to give their kids an education founded on their religious faith. I don't think I'm alone in not wanting to see my tax dollars go to pay for religious education.

I'm looking in vain for the corresponding concern as to whether or not the parents know anything about the quality of the education in the PUBLIC schools before using taxpayer money on them. Well, anything other than that their state is near dead-last in the national rankings.

What's it to you whether or not the kids get a religious education, as long as they also get an academic one? I'd rather have my tax dollars go to any school that turns out kids who can read, write, and do math over one that doesn't. Of course, I'm not a religiophobic bigot like you are, so I don't put my desire to control people's beliefs ahead of the childrens' need for an education.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The purpose of the Louisiana voucher system is to destroy what remains of the the public school system and move the remainder of the students into private schools. This is a process that began in the 1960's when white parents moved their students into private schools to escape integration. Louisiana has consistently ranked 49th to 50th in their quality of public educations. I suspect that Louisiana will be the first state to abandon public education in favor of private schools and will probably provide some of the best education in the country, for those that can afford it.

If the private system works, and the government subsidizes tuition for those who need it, where is the harm...

We want an education system that works...that's the goal.

Is the means really that important?

There is no harm in having private schools. Only when government takes money from public schools to support private schools is there a problem which is exactly what vouchers and other methods of funneling money to private schools do.

And why, exactly, is it a problem for the money to go wherever the kid is? Or are you saying that the child should be kept in a failing school so that his allotment of the money will be able to be spent by that school? What, exactly, is your priority? The public schools, or the child?

 

[Flopper]

The purpose of the Louisiana voucher system is to destroy what remains of the the public school system and move the remainder of the students into private schools. This is a process that began in the 1960's when white parents moved their students into private schools to escape integration. Louisiana has consistently ranked 49th to 50th in their quality of public educations. I suspect that Louisiana will be the first state to abandon public education in favor of private schools and will probably provide some of the best education in the country, for those that can afford it.

Of course, in all this concern for the institution over the children, you forgot to address the question of whether or not the voucher system will provide poor black children a better education. It's like the kids themselves are irrelevant to you, or something. Hmmm.

The question of whether the vouchers would provide kids a better education for either white or black children can't be answered because the schools that accept vouchers don't administer standardized that can be used to compare performance with public schools.

 

[Flopper]

Enforced uniformity is not synonymous with accountability.

Lefties bitch about standardized testing but can't shake their programmed insistence on centralized control.

Leftists bitch about standardized testing only when it's designed to hold the government school teachers accountable.

If we're going to require that public schools give a standardize to evaluate student performance, we should certainly require that private schools taking tax payer money do likewise. Parents may or not be able compare but the point is the tax payer has no way of knowing his money is being spent wisely unless there is an objective measure of performance.

No, we shouldn't. People don't have a choice about putting their kids in public schools. The only way to get any kind of accountability is by measuring results. However, by definition, they do have a choice about putting their kids in private schools. Accountability is enforced by parents choosing to take their kids elsewhere when those schools don't perform. That's the market method of making providers accountable. Imposing government solutions on private enterprise is counter productive.

You might have a point if the parent could really determine the quality of the education at the private school before using tax payer money to pay tuition. You are also disregarding the fact that one of the primary reasons parents choose a private school is to give their kids an education founded on their religious faith. I don't think I'm alone in not wanting to see my tax dollars go to pay for religious education.

I'm looking in vain for the corresponding concern as to whether or not the parents know anything about the quality of the education in the PUBLIC schools before using taxpayer money on them. Well, anything other than that their state is near dead-last in the national rankings.

What's it to you whether or not the kids get a religious education, as long as they also get an academic one? I'd rather have my tax dollars go to any school that turns out kids who can read, write, and do math over one that doesn't. Of course, I'm not a religiophobic bigot like you are, so I don't put my desire to control people's beliefs ahead of the childrens' need for an education.

Parents know quite a bit about the quality of the education their kids are getting in public schools. Since the state requires that all public school students take standardized tests, it's very easy to compare schools. Parents have the right to pull their kids out of failing public schools and send them to better public schools in the district. You not only can she how the students are performing but you have a wealth of additional information on the quality of the school and staff. Private schools only release the information the school chooses to release.

I have no problem with kids getting a religious education as long as my tax dollars aren't used to pay for it.

 

[Unkotare]

The purpose of the Louisiana voucher system is to destroy what remains of the the public school system and move the remainder of the students into private schools. This is a process that began in the 1960's when white parents moved their students into private schools to escape integration. Louisiana has consistently ranked 49th to 50th in their quality of public educations. I suspect that Louisiana will be the first state to abandon public education in favor of private schools and will probably provide some of the best education in the country, for those that can afford it.

Of course, in all this concern for the institution over the children, you forgot to address the question of whether or not the voucher system will provide poor black children a better education. It's like the kids themselves are irrelevant to you, or something. Hmmm.

The question of whether the vouchers would provide kids a better education for either white or black children can't be answered because the schools that accept vouchers don't administer standardized that can be used to compare performance with public schools.

Do you realize how obvious it is that you have nothing left to say on the matter?