Universal Basic Income

[g5000]

I have read all, or almost all, of Thomas Paine's writings. I think we have a user on this forum who has adopted Paine's name.

Thomas Paine is perhaps most well-known to Americans as being the author of Common Sense, a pamphlet which inspired every patriot to independence.

He also published a series of pamphlets under the title American Crisis. The most famous line most of us have heard from that series is, "These are the times which try men's souls."

Lesser known today, but quite famous during its time, was The Age of Reason. In this three part tome written after we gained independence, Paine completely deconstructed the Christian Bible. He ripped it to pieces.

Paine was an advocate of Deism.

The Age of Reason was a huge bestseller in the US. and led to a revival of deism here.

Not so well known today is Paine's Agrarian Justice.

Like most of our Founders, Paine believe in Natural Rights. He believed "landed property" was an inevitable violation of Natural Rights that needed to be mitigated as the poor were worse off under such a system than when humans had lived in a state of nature.

Paine's solution was for America to provide a tidy sum to every American who reached the age of 21, and to provide an annual sum to everyone who arrived at the age of 50.

The latter half is Social Security. The former is a precursor to a universal basic income, though Paine intended it to be a one time payment so the poor could buy cows or other means to support themselves.

What? Social Security proposed way back in 1797? And UBI, too?!?

It's a very fascinating piece to read, so here it is: http://www.piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/Paine1795.pdf

Just as an aside, Thomas Jefferson also felt the same about the landed class violating Natural Rights, and he proposed a progressive tax on the wealthy, with most Americans being exempt from taxation. (Editing note: I originally posted it was James Madison, but I got the recipient and the sender reversed. See letter in post 4 below. My apologies.)

Our Founders were proto-commies!


Kamala Harris proposed a universal basic income when she was a US Senator in 2018, which puts here squarely in the Liberal column.

More in my next post.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

'Landed Property' was the belief of most of the Founders, not Natural Rights.

 

[g5000]

For those unfamiliar with UBI, it is basically a payment to every citizen every month by the government. Or, in Kamala Harris's case, a yearly tax credit.

Harris's tax credit was to provide $500 a month to every family earning less than $100,000 and $250 a month for individuals.

It went nowhere, and Harris knew it would to nowhere. This was a pandering gesture in anticipation of running for President in 2020.

So does UBI work?

There have been countless experiments with UBI all over the world, including here in the US on a city by city basis.

Also, the state of Alaska has had a UBI for decades. Sarah Palin even bragged about it.

As far as I know, Finland is the only country which tried it on a nationwide basis.

There is a long running UBI experiment in Kenya, and the results appear to be incredibly promising for lifting people out of poverty.

In Finland and elsewhere, UBI has been shown to increase employment among the poor. Rather than cause people to become lazy with the extra government cash, as its detractors try to claim without proof, it has led to more employment, better health, and other positive outcomes.

Of course it is wildly expensive, but if it leads to prosperity for the poor, then they will be contributing more to the tax revenues.

Anyway, here are some links about where UBI has been tested you may find interesting:

Alaska's UBI program: Alaskans Receive Record Dividends of $3,284

A map of where UBI has been tested: Global Map of Basic Income Experiments | Stanford Basic Income Lab

Finland: An experiment to inform universal basic income

Multiple countries have tested a universal basic income – and it works

England is the latest country to test giving residents a guaranteed amount of money every month, also known as a universal basic income (UBI).

globalaffairs.org

Here is an article about Harris's 2018 plan: https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article220239985.html

 

[g5000]

'Landed Property' was the belief of most of the Founders, not Natural Rights.

No, the Founders believed landed property was a violation of Natural Rights.

Read Agrarian Justice.


Also, this: Equality: Thomas Jefferson to James Madison

The property of this country is absolutely concentered in a very few hands, having revenues of from half a million of guineas a year downwards.

[snip]


I asked myself what could be the reason that so many should be permitted to beg who are willing to work, in a country where there is a very considerable proportion of uncultivated lands?


[snip]


I am conscious that an equal division of property is impracticable. But the consequences of this enormous inequality producing so much misery to the bulk of mankind, legislators cannot invent too many devices for subdividing property, only taking care to let their subdivisions go hand in hand with the natural affections of the human mind.


[snip]


Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they rise.

[snip]

Whenever there is in any country, uncultivated lands and unemployed poor, it is clear that the laws of property have been so far extended as to violate natural right.

 

[g5000]

You can see Jefferson was upset about concentrated wealth in his day, just like many people are today.

And Jefferson wanted that wealth broken up and redistributed.

First, with a progressive tax system, exempting all "below a certain point" from those taxes.

Just like we have today.

Another thing the Founders ended which they felt was a violation of natural law was hereditary wealth, particularly primogeniture.

Alexis de Tocqueville in Democracy in America described this American movement as breaking great wealth down until is was like fine grains of sand.

 

[g5000]

My memory has served me well today.

Through their means man acquires a kind of preternatural power over the future lot of his fellow-creatures. When the legislator has regulated the law of inheritance, he may rest from his labor. The machine once put in motion will go on for ages, and advance, as if self-guided, towards a given point. When framed in a particular manner, this law unites, draws together, and vests property and power in a few hands: its tendency is clearly aristocratic. On opposite principles its action is still more rapid; it divides, distributes, and disperses both property and power. Alarmed by the rapidity of its progress, those who despair of arresting its motion endeavor to obstruct it by difficulties and impediments; they vainly seek to counteract its effect by contrary efforts; but it gradually reduces or destroys every obstacle, until by its incessant activity the bulwarks of the influence of wealth are ground down to the fine and shifting sand which is the basis of democracy.

The Project Gutenberg eBook of Democracy in America, Part I. by Alexis de Tocqueville

 

[g5000]

We lost our way somewhere back in time.

Through legislation used to tilt the playing field in their favor, the rich and powerful have managed to concentrate wealth into a few hands once again, at the expense of the middle class and poor.

I do not disagree with JD Vance when he says we have a corporate oligarchy.

 

[kyzr]

Ummm, I'm a hard no. If you want money get a job and pay taxes.

 

[g5000]

Ummm, I'm a hard no. If you want money get a job and pay taxes.

From an article about Kenya's experiment with UBI. The results have been dramatic.

They used a control group in this experiment.

Experimental evaluations of conditional cash transfers have consistently found that recipients of shorter-term transfers do not reduce their work effort[3] or spend the money they receive on alcohol or tobacco.[4] Instead, these evaluations have documented improvements in a wide range of outcomes including food security[5] and educational attainment[6], investment in small businesses[7] and long-term earnings.[8] Even short-term infusions of capital have significantly improved long-term living standards[9], psychological well-being[10], and life expectancy.[11]

The Effects of a Universal Basic Income in Kenya | IPA

poverty-action.org

 

[MisterBeale]

We lost our way somewhere back in time.

Through legislation used to tilt the playing field in their favor, the rich and powerful have managed to concentrate wealth into a few hands once again, at the expense of the middle class and poor.

I do not disagree with JD Vance when he says we have a corporate oligarchy.

Those born first, or those who were here first, definitely have an advantage.

. . . and as the population grows, so too, does the value of land and natural resources, with no inherent work of the family or corporations that originally own them, this is true.

Every keen thinker can obviously figure this out, and anyone that denies this, usually has had land owners and resource owners in their family going back multiple generations, and generally don't give a shit about the poor and disposed on the planet.

Nor do they care about the homeless or destitute. They tend to be soulless and wicked men and women.


. . . on the other hand. . .

Using this, as a way to grow government, and give it more power? This too we should be on guard against. There is a third way which I believe you are not aware of.


. . . we need not resort, necessarily to UBI.

 

[MisterBeale]

From an article about Kenya's experiment with UBI. The results have been dramatic.

They used a control group in this experiment.

Experimental evaluations of conditional cash transfers have consistently found that recipients of shorter-term transfers do not reduce their work effort[3] or spend the money they receive on alcohol or tobacco.[4] Instead, these evaluations have documented improvements in a wide range of outcomes including food security[5] and educational attainment[6], investment in small businesses[7] and long-term earnings.[8] Even short-term infusions of capital have significantly improved long-term living standards[9], psychological well-being[10], and life expectancy.[11]

The Effects of a Universal Basic Income in Kenya | IPA

poverty-action.org

This still, puts the controlling power in the hands of the government.

Unacceptable for Americans. Sorry.

 

[progressive hunter]

For those unfamiliar with UBI, it is basically a payment to every citizen every month by the government. Or, in Kamala Harris's case, a yearly tax credit.

Harris's tax credit was to provide $500 a month to every family earning less than $100,000 and $250 a month for individuals.

It went nowhere, and Harris knew it would to nowhere. This was a pandering gesture in anticipation of running for President in 2020.

So does UBI work?

There have been countless experiments with UBI all over the world, including here in the US on a city by city basis.

Also, the state of Alaska has had a UBI for decades. Sarah Palin even bragged about it.

As far as I know, Finland is the only country which tried it on a nationwide basis.

There is a long running UBI experiment in Kenya, and the results appear to be incredibly promising for lifting people out of poverty.

In Finland and elsewhere, UBI has been shown to increase employment among the poor. Rather than cause people to become lazy with the extra government cash, as its detractors try to claim without proof, it has led to more employment, better health, and other positive outcomes.

Of course it is wildly expensive, but if it leads to prosperity for the poor, then they will be contributing more to the tax revenues.

Anyway, here are some links about where UBI has been tested you may find interesting:

Alaska's UBI program: Alaskans Receive Record Dividends of $3,284

A map of where UBI has been tested: Global Map of Basic Income Experiments | Stanford Basic Income Lab

Finland: An experiment to inform universal basic income

Multiple countries have tested a universal basic income – and it works

England is the latest country to test giving residents a guaranteed amount of money every month, also known as a universal basic income (UBI).

globalaffairs.org

Here is an article about Harris's 2018 plan: https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article220239985.html

the problem with UBI is it creates lazy second class citizens,,

there has to be skin in the game and working is the only way to do that,,

I can go for a tax credit for working people,,

its my understanding that the UBI in alaska is because of their fossil fuel resources and the huge lack of jobs,,

thats not a problem in the lower 49,,

 

[kyzr]

From an article about Kenya's experiment with UBI. The results have been dramatic. They used a control group in this experiment.
Experimental evaluations of conditional cash transfers have consistently found that recipients of shorter-term transfers do not reduce their work effort[3] or spend the money they receive on alcohol or tobacco.[4] Instead, these evaluations have documented improvements in a wide range of outcomes including food security[5] and educational attainment[6], investment in small businesses[7] and long-term earnings.[8] Even short-term infusions of capital have significantly improved long-term living standards[9], psychological well-being[10], and life expectancy.[11]

LOL! Maybe Kenyans wouldn't spend UBI on cigarettes, drugs, booze, and hookers, but here in the US its a given.

 

[MisterBeale]

I can go for a tax credit for working people,,

This was sort of the solution figured out by Milton Friedman and Thomas Sowell back in '78, as the solution to LBJ and Carter's great society stagflation boondoggle.

(previous post)

Suckers! Trump Era Tax Cuts Are Set To Expire — Here’s How Much More You’ll Pay

Why didn't Piglosi answer Schumer do it? I'll tell ya.....they would rather tell their mindless cult ORANGE MAN BAD than actually do something. And the cult chants ORANGE MAN BAD. There was no reason to do anything to the tax legislation.

www.usmessageboard.com

"I know this was tongue in cheek. . . but there was actually an idea in the late 70's, early 80's proposed by Milton Friedman, and supported by Thomas Sowell.

IN some ways, it is a revolutionary idea, with much foresight geared toward dismantling BIG GOVERNMENT, encouraging personal responsibility, while also providing a social safety net in the face of increasing social destabilizing forces of technological innovations and social dislocations . . . .

Not exactly a "UBI," that is proposed by some today, but similar. I was shocked that they foresaw the type of problems we are seeing today with AI and automation, all the way back then, but wanted to set up a system that would replace dependence on direct government assistance, entitlement programs, and the massive buracracy that grows up around that to administer them . . .

Negative Income tax? Have you ever heard of such an idea? I hadn't, till I ran across it last year, in the archives.

Government Shutdown October 1st! Yay Republicans!

None, I just want to know WHY MTG, LB, and MG voted Nay. You seem to call (D) haters of the Military for voting Nay, so what do you say about MTG, LB, and MG voting Nay? You are too afraid to answer, aren't you. C'mon big Reb ......why do those 3 (R) get a pass from you? None is not a link...

www.usmessageboard.com

"Domestic Spending Waste & Corruption.​

There seems to be a lot of discussion and debate in the past several years with the advent of AI, increased efficiency, decreased employment opportunity and demands for equity, from the independent and far left, for ideas like guaranteed minimum income/UBI (universal basic income,) or reparations. Conservatives and libertarians shudder at this, because they envision more debt added to the budget, both in more entitlement payments, and more bureaucracy to administer it.

But what if we could satisfy the left's demands for UBI/reparations where needed, while also decreasing the size of the welfare bureaucracy?

Just a curious idea, film and discussion from forty/fifty years ago. . . perhaps an idea ahead of its time, coming from the right. Presented by Milton Freidman, featuring Thomas Sowell in discussion, the idea of negative income tax. . .

Could that be a start, to solve the massive entitlement side of the equation?

Negative income tax​

Negative income tax - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Free To Choose - Milton Friedman on The Welfare System (1978) | Thomas Sowell​

776,023 views Sep 16, 2019
"Milton Freidman, in the fourth segment of the series, shows why he believes government-run welfare programs do not help the people they are intended to help or achieve the ends they are intended to achieve, and why the "welfare state" leads to loss of initiative, independence, and personal liberty. Friedman compares slum areas and luxury apartments of New York City, visits two families on welfare, one in Harlem and one in Britain, and argues in favor of the negative income tax. Featuring Thomas Sowell.

Shared for historical purposes. I do not own the rights.. . . "
"

 

[g5000]

Those born first, or those who were here first, definitely have an advantage.

. . . and as the population grows, so too, does the value of land and natural resources, with no inherent work of the family or corporations that original own them, this is true.

Every keen thinker can obviously figure this out, and anyone that denies this, usually has had land owners and resource owners in their family going back multiple generations, and generally don't give a shit about the poor and disposed on the planet.

Nor do they care about the homeless or destitute. They tend to be soulless and wicked men and women.


. . . on the other hand. . .

Using this, as a way to grow government, and give it more power? This too we should be on guard against. There is a third way which I believe you are not aware of.


. . . we need not resort, necessarily to UBI.

I don't know if you've ever heard of Milton Friedman. He was a Nobel Prize Winner and Reagan's favorite economist. I'm a huge fan of Milton Friedman. And Reagan.

Friedman was a hardcore libertarian. He was opposed to big government in every way. He was against the plethora of regulatory agencies. He was against corporate bailouts. He felt all drugs should be legalized. And so forth.

On the Fairness Doctrine: "I'm not in favor of fairness. I'm in favor of freedom. Fairness means someone has to decide what's fair."

So you can imagine how surprising it is to learn he was in favor of UBI. He called it a "negative income tax".

He discussed it in his books Capitalism and Freedom and Free to Choose.


The basic idea was to eliminate all welfare programs. They were too expensive and had massive costly government bureaucracies, and subject to too much fraud, abuse, and waste.

Instead, the poor would be given money with no strings attached to spend as they please.

 

[progressive hunter]

This was sort of the solution figured out by Milton Friedman and Thomas Sowell back in '78, as the solution to LBJ and Carter's great society stagflation boondoggle.

(previous post)

Suckers! Trump Era Tax Cuts Are Set To Expire — Here’s How Much More You’ll Pay

Why didn't Piglosi answer Schumer do it? I'll tell ya.....they would rather tell their mindless cult ORANGE MAN BAD than actually do something. And the cult chants ORANGE MAN BAD. There was no reason to do anything to the tax legislation.

www.usmessageboard.com

"I know this was tongue in cheek. . . but there was actually an idea in the late 70's, early 80's proposed by Milton Friedman, and supported by Thomas Sowell.

IN some ways, it is a revolutionary idea, with much foresight geared toward dismantling BIG GOVERNMENT, encouraging personal responsibility, while also providing a social safety net in the face of increasing social destabilizing forces of technological innovations and social dislocations . . . .

Not exactly a "UBI," that is proposed by some today, but similar. I was shocked that they foresaw the type of problems we are seeing today with AI and automation, all the way back then, but wanted to set up a system that would replace dependence on direct government assistance, entitlement programs, and the massive buracracy that grows up around that to administer them . . .

Negative Income tax? Have you ever heard of such an idea? I hadn't, till I ran across it last year, in the archives.

Government Shutdown October 1st! Yay Republicans!

None, I just want to know WHY MTG, LB, and MG voted Nay. You seem to call (D) haters of the Military for voting Nay, so what do you say about MTG, LB, and MG voting Nay? You are too afraid to answer, aren't you. C'mon big Reb ......why do those 3 (R) get a pass from you? None is not a link...

www.usmessageboard.com

"Domestic Spending Waste & Corruption.​

There seems to be a lot of discussion and debate in the past several years with the advent of AI, increased efficiency, decreased employment opportunity and demands for equity, from the independent and far left, for ideas like guaranteed minimum income/UBI (universal basic income,) or reparations. Conservatives and libertarians shudder at this, because they envision more debt added to the budget, both in more entitlement payments, and more bureaucracy to administer it.

But what if we could satisfy the left's demands for UBI/reparations where needed, while also decreasing the size of the welfare bureaucracy?

Just a curious idea, film and discussion from forty/fifty years ago. . . perhaps an idea ahead of its time, coming from the right. Presented by Milton Freidman, featuring Thomas Sowell in discussion, the idea of negative income tax. . .

Could that be a start, to solve the massive entitlement side of the equation?

Negative income tax​

Negative income tax - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Free To Choose - Milton Friedman on The Welfare System (1978) | Thomas Sowell​

776,023 views Sep 16, 2019
"Milton Freidman, in the fourth segment of the series, shows why he believes government-run welfare programs do not help the people they are intended to help or achieve the ends they are intended to achieve, and why the "welfare state" leads to loss of initiative, independence, and personal liberty. Friedman compares slum areas and luxury apartments of New York City, visits two families on welfare, one in Harlem and one in Britain, and argues in favor of the negative income tax. Featuring Thomas Sowell.

Shared for historical purposes. I do not own the rights.. . . "
"

I think ending the welfare state was one of the criteria for UBI and unrestricted immigration,,

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

I have read all, or almost all, of Thomas Paine's writings. I think we have a user on this forum who has adopted Paine's name.

Thomas Paine is perhaps most well-known to Americans as being the author of Common Sense, a pamphlet which inspired every patriot to independence.

He also published a series of pamphlets under the title American Crisis. The most famous line most of us have heard from that series is, "These are the times which try men's souls."

Lesser known today, but quite famous during its time, was The Age of Reason. In this three part tome written after we gained independence, Paine completely deconstructed the Christian Bible. He ripped it to pieces.

Paine was an advocate of Deism.

The Age of Reason was a huge bestseller in the US. and led to a revival of deism here.

Not so well known today is Paine's Agrarian Justice.

Like most of our Founders, Paine believe in Natural Rights. He believed "landed property" was an inevitable violation of Natural Rights that needed to be mitigated as the poor were worse off under such a system than when humans had lived in a state of nature.

Paine's solution was for America to provide a tidy sum to every American who reached the age of 21, and to provide an annual sum to everyone who arrived at the age of 50.

The latter half is Social Security. The former is a precursor to a universal basic income, though Paine intended it to be a one time payment so the poor could buy cows or other means to support themselves.

What? Social Security proposed way back in 1797? And UBI, too?!?

It's a very fascinating piece to read, so here it is: http://www.piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/Paine1795.pdf

Just as an aside, Thomas Jefferson also felt the same about the landed class violating Natural Rights, and he proposed a progressive tax on the wealthy, with most Americans being exempt from taxation. (Editing note: I originally posted it was James Madison, but I got the recipient and the sender reversed. See letter in post 4 below. My apologies.)

Our Founders were proto-commies!


Kamala Harris proposed a universal basic income when she was a US Senator in 2018, which puts here squarely in the Liberal column.

More in my next post.

I think at some point a UBI will be inevitable given the improvement in technology replacing human labor at a rapid pace.

 

[g5000]

LOL! Maybe Kenyans wouldn't spend UBI on cigarettes, drugs, booze, and hookers, but here in the US its a given.

You are speaking from ignorance. Your prejudice is preventing you from being objective.

That has not proven to the case.

In the experiments in the US, recipients have had an increase in employment, health, and joy de vivre.

I'm sure your MAGA propagandists would expend a lot of energy finding those rare cases of people buying steaks in order to feed your confirmation bias.

 

[progressive hunter]

I don't know if you've ever heard of Milton Friedman. He was a Nobel Prize Winner and Reagan's favorite economist. I'm a huge fan of Milton Friedman. And Reagan.

Friedman was a hardcore libertarian. He was opposed to big government in every way. He was against the plethora of regulatory agencies. He was against corporate bailouts. He felt all drugs should be legalized. And so forth.

On the Fairness Doctrine: "I'm not in favor of fairness. I'm in favor of freedom. Fairness means someone has to decide what's fair."

So you can imagine how surprising it is to learn he was in favor of UBI. He called it a "negative income tax".

He discussed it in his books Capitalism and Freedom and Free to Choose.


The basic idea was to eliminate all welfare programs. They were too expensive and had massive costly government bureaucracies, and subject to too much fraud, abuse, and waste.

Instead, the poor would be given money with no strings attached to spend as they please.

he was also against the welfare state,,

 

[g5000]

I think ending the welfare state was one of the criteria for UBI and unrestricted immigration,,

Milton Friedman's "negative income tax" included ending all welfare programs.