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Lee got rid of the slaves and lost the war. YOu are still in full traitor and racist mode, so, uncensored's point could still be pretty much on.
Did Lee own slaves?
Did Lee take up arms against the United States of America?
Yeah, you said that. And then I pointed out how he changed in life, while you are currently working to tear this nation apart.
So, like I said, uncensored point is likely on. As you know, or you would have directly challenged it.
Actually what Pothead ("Uncensored") said was that Lee, quote, "never owned a slave in his life".
He was wrong about that, and Brutha did directly challenge it.
And yet, Lee, as I said, lost, surrendered and later redeemed himself by becoming a national icon of reconciliation and unity, while superbruther is actively trying to tear this nation apart, so, uncensored's point could still be pretty much on.
Really, tell us what Lee actually did to reconcile and unite the country. Please enlighten us.
...t.
Did Lee own slaves?
Did Lee take up arms against the United States of America?
Yeah, you said that. And then I pointed out how he changed in life, while you are currently working to tear this nation apart.
So, like I said, uncensored point is likely on. As you know, or you would have directly challenged it.
Actually what Pothead ("Uncensored") said was that Lee, quote, "never owned a slave in his life".
He was wrong about that, and Brutha did directly challenge it.
And yet, Lee, as I said, lost, surrendered and later redeemed himself by becoming a national icon of reconciliation and unity, while superbruther is actively trying to tear this nation apart, so, uncensored's point could still be pretty much on.
Really, tell us what Lee actually did to reconcile and unite the country. Please enlighten us.
...t.
Neither one of us cares what the details are. So, why the fuck are you asking? Nothing I say could possibly make a single impression in your hate filled bigoted mind.
YOu are against these memorials, because you are a racist and a bigot, and reasons are shit you come up with to justify your hate and racism.
SouthernersSouthern people who conspired to enforce Jim Crow second class citizenship after they no longer could have slaves
Oh, democrats?
Yeah, democrats [sic] are real scum. Always were, always will be. They're doing the Jim Crow shit again, but this time against white people. Fucking vermin....
Southerners owned slaves for 200 years before the Democratic Party was formed
Longer than that. The first African slaves brought to (what is now the) US arrived in (what is now).....
OMG, who the fuck cares? Slavery is not the only history in the world. Slavery is not the only story in the world. GIVE IT A FUCKING BREAK!
We are in America Jack and some of us grew up during Jim Crow, so trying to downplay that shit as if it wasn't a big deal is bullshit. I guess when you aren't on the receiving end of racism it is easy to blow it off as nothing.
Soviet Union wanted to change history. Taliban wanted to change history. Chairman Mao wanted to change history. So I'm not surprised that 2020 Democratic Party wants to do the same.Did Lee own slaves?
Did Lee take up arms against the United States of America?
Yeah, you said that. And then I pointed out how he changed in life, while you are currently working to tear this nation apart.
So, like I said, uncensored point is likely on. As you know, or you would have directly challenged it.
Actually what Pothead ("Uncensored") said was that Lee, quote, "never owned a slave in his life".
He was wrong about that, and Brutha did directly challenge it.
And yet, Lee, as I said, lost, surrendered and later redeemed himself by becoming a national icon of reconciliation and unity, while superbruther is actively trying to tear this nation apart, so, uncensored's point could still be pretty much on.
Really, tell us what Lee actually did to reconcile and unite the country. Please enlighten us.
...t.
Neither one of us cares what the details are. So, why the fuck are you asking? Nothing I say could possibly make a single impression in your hate filled bigoted mind.
YOu are against these memorials, because you are a racist and a bigot, and reasons are shit you come up with to justify your hate and racism.
Because he is only looking at it from a "black/white" perspective.Yeah, you said that. And then I pointed out how he changed in life, while you are currently working to tear this nation apart.
So, like I said, uncensored point is likely on. As you know, or you would have directly challenged it.
Actually what Pothead ("Uncensored") said was that Lee, quote, "never owned a slave in his life".
He was wrong about that, and Brutha did directly challenge it.
And yet, Lee, as I said, lost, surrendered and later redeemed himself by becoming a national icon of reconciliation and unity, while superbruther is actively trying to tear this nation apart, so, uncensored's point could still be pretty much on.
Really, tell us what Lee actually did to reconcile and unite the country. Please enlighten us.
...t.
Neither one of us cares what the details are. So, why the fuck are you asking? Nothing I say could possibly make a single impression in your hate filled bigoted mind.
YOu are against these memorials, because you are a racist and a bigot, and reasons are shit you come up with to justify your hate and racism.
How does opposing those memorials make him a racist?
Because he is only looking at it from a "black/white" perspective.Actually what Pothead ("Uncensored") said was that Lee, quote, "never owned a slave in his life".
He was wrong about that, and Brutha did directly challenge it.
And yet, Lee, as I said, lost, surrendered and later redeemed himself by becoming a national icon of reconciliation and unity, while superbruther is actively trying to tear this nation apart, so, uncensored's point could still be pretty much on.
Really, tell us what Lee actually did to reconcile and unite the country. Please enlighten us.
...t.
Neither one of us cares what the details are. So, why the fuck are you asking? Nothing I say could possibly make a single impression in your hate filled bigoted mind.
YOu are against these memorials, because you are a racist and a bigot, and reasons are shit you come up with to justify your hate and racism.
How does opposing those memorials make him a racist?
Sure it does. Talk to any Democrat.Because he is only looking at it from a "black/white" perspective.And yet, Lee, as I said, lost, surrendered and later redeemed himself by becoming a national icon of reconciliation and unity, while superbruther is actively trying to tear this nation apart, so, uncensored's point could still be pretty much on.
Really, tell us what Lee actually did to reconcile and unite the country. Please enlighten us.
...t.
Neither one of us cares what the details are. So, why the fuck are you asking? Nothing I say could possibly make a single impression in your hate filled bigoted mind.
YOu are against these memorials, because you are a racist and a bigot, and reasons are shit you come up with to justify your hate and racism.
How does opposing those memorials make him a racist?
That doesn't make one a racist.
Lee got rid of the slaves and lost the war. YOu are still in full traitor and racist mode, so, uncensored's point could still be pretty much on.
Did Lee own slaves?
Did Lee take up arms against the United States of America?
Yeah, you said that. And then I pointed out how he changed in life, while you are currently working to tear this nation apart.
So, like I said, uncensored point is likely on. As you know, or you would have directly challenged it.
Actually what Pothead ("Uncensored") said was that Lee, quote, "never owned a slave in his life".
He was wrong about that, and Brutha did directly challenge it.
And yet, Lee, as I said, lost, surrendered and later redeemed himself by becoming a national icon of reconciliation and unity, while superbruther is actively trying to tear this nation apart, so, uncensored's point could still be pretty much on.
"National icon" might be a bit hyperventilative but yes, he did that, and deserves to be recognized that he did. Which, again, proscribes putting up graven images in his name which he specifically discouraged in advance AS PART OF that reconciliatory stance. Ergo to ignore those wishes and plunk him on a building with arms folded confronting the north, is a direct spit in the face OF that stance. It directly contradicts what he ended up standing for.
Meanwhile speaking of lies and using people's images to tell them, we continue to see stuff like this dropped around this site like so much confetti:
-- another case of a racist who reformed, loudly and longly, whose legacy gets perverted by self-serving propagandists for their own jollies despite actual biography.
But this thread/discussion is not about individuals; it's about a collective, specifically a cult. But within that cult, the direct ignorance of the intentions of one of its major figures, intentions you yourself just articulated, demonstrates the naked dishonesty of the propaganda therein.
So you can't have it both ways --- EITHER Robert E.Lee remained a lifelong evil ogre with nothing but negative baggage, OR he came around to see what was needed for his country. IF the latter is the case, THEN that makes the propagandist cult, by perverting his reconciliatory intentions, the ones who are dishonoring history. And it makes those communities like New Orleans, by removing those dishonest perversions, the ones honoring it.
"Recording" that history is of course out of the question and always has been. History has never in all of time been recorded in statues. History is news --- neutral, just the facts. Statues and monuments are editorials --- opinions ABOUT that news.
As for Pothead, his ass-ertion that Lee "never owned a slave in his life" was and still is PROVABLY WRONG. And it was proven so. That too is perverting history. By floating easily disprovable myths Pothead is engaging in the same dishonest propaganda as the LCC. Lee did own slaves and that doesn't go away because he changed his views later, just as Byrd did join the Klan and that doesn't go away because he changed his. But both DID take that course of redemption and neither end of that journey can be ignored just because some wanker wants to float mythology on a message board. So no, his point is not at all "pretty much on", it's BULLSHIT.
How many times, do I have to say the same thing, before you libs actually get it? Do you have to reapply those concrete plugs in your ears, every morning, or are they permanent?
What, because I've been agreeing with you about Robert E. Lee's change of heart?
SMGDFH
SouthernersSouthern people who conspired to enforce Jim Crow second class citizenship after they no longer could have slaves1. You are the one conflating the Lost Cause movement with tens of millions of good southern people who, while not Lost Causers, are proud of their heritage and culture. YOu, not me.
2. They are focusing on certain aspects of the Confederacy, such as the bravery and skill and service of the Confederate fighting men. This is not lying. We all pick and choose what to celebrate in our history and culture. ALL cultures do this. Indeed, it is part of progress.
Oh, democrats?
Yeah, democrats are real scum. Always were, always will be. They're doing the Jim Crow shit again, but this time against white people. Fucking vermin....
Southerners owned slaves for 200 years before the Democratic Party was formed
Again, liberals show that they never learned as toddlers, how generalizations work.
Generalizations are by definition fallacies. The post quoted actually understated the timeline and it was put there in correction to the mythology of associating a political party with Slavery. In actual fact the overwhelming majority of slave owners/traders had no political party at all, both because none was needed for a nonpolitical activity, and not least of which because NONE EXISTED.
Not to mention exponentially greater numbers of Africans that were shipped to other places that to this day have never had a Democratic Party at all, yet somehow found a way to buy and sell human cargo.
So that's how the mythological and fallacious generalization of trying to pin Slavery on a political party goes down in flames. Kablooey.
SouthernersSouthern people who conspired to enforce Jim Crow second class citizenship after they no longer could have slaves
Oh, democrats?
Yeah, democrats [sic] are real scum. Always were, always will be. They're doing the Jim Crow shit again, but this time against white people. Fucking vermin....
Southerners owned slaves for 200 years before the Democratic Party was formed
Longer than that. The first African slaves brought to (what is now the) US arrived in (what is now).....
OMG, who the fuck cares? Slavery is not the only history in the world. Slavery is not the only story in the world. GIVE IT A FUCKING BREAK!
So you're resigning from the thread? It's not really traditional to use the word "fucking" in a resignation letter but OK.
....<<
1. Southern Pride and Heritage is not Lost Cause. Your claim otherwise is you misrepresenting tens of millions of good southern people, indeed, scores of millions of good Americans who support Historical Statues.
You mean those good God Fearin, Christian Southerners who enslaved other human beings and then denied them basic human rights for another 100yrs. You are talking about those Good Southerners.
2. But he does not own his image. He was a public figure and he is an historical figure of great importance. It is completely reasonable that he would be included in any movement to memorialize the service of the Confederates. I thought I might be getting though to you, but you wiggled away
You're right he is a historic figure, a man that will be forever known as a traitor.
1. No, I was clearly talking about modern Southerns, who are good people, and want to be abe to celebrate their history and culture like everyone else. It is telling that you have to work so hard to avoid what I am actually saying, to even pretend to defend your position.
Who wants to celebrate folks who enslaved folks and enacted Jim Crow Laws to discriminate against others.
2. He and all the Confederates were forgiven and pardoned long ago, by the very people that actually fought and defeated them. Your pretense of caring about that, is not credible. This is about your hatred and bigotry against modern Southern whites, and you know it.
Who were they forgiven and pardoned by? Andrew Johnson, another racist POS that was a Southerner. That would be like a Nazi pardoning Hitler and saying all is forgiven. These clowns were racist traitors and putting up statues and monuments for fools like you isn't going to change that.
1. What other group, do you examine and judge whether or not they are allowed to celebrate their heritage and culture?
2. They were forgiven and accepted back into America, by the rest of America, including, the very men that fought and defeated them. Who are you, to have the Moral Authority to over rule them and withdraw that forgiveness? FIVE FUCKING GENERATIONS AFTER THE FACT?
The Confederacy was treason.
What other group in the world is given a holiday to commemorate treason? Is their entire culture defined by this and only this? That is what you seem to be arguing.
Yeah, you said that. And then I pointed out how he changed in life, while you are currently working to tear this nation apart.
So, like I said, uncensored point is likely on. As you know, or you would have directly challenged it.
Actually what Pothead ("Uncensored") said was that Lee, quote, "never owned a slave in his life".
He was wrong about that, and Brutha did directly challenge it.
And yet, Lee, as I said, lost, surrendered and later redeemed himself by becoming a national icon of reconciliation and unity, while superbruther is actively trying to tear this nation apart, so, uncensored's point could still be pretty much on.
Really, tell us what Lee actually did to reconcile and unite the country. Please enlighten us.
...t.
Neither one of us cares what the details are. So, why the fuck are you asking? Nothing I say could possibly make a single impression in your hate filled bigoted mind.
YOu are against these memorials, because you are a racist and a bigot, and reasons are shit you come up with to justify your hate and racism.
How does opposing those memorials make him a racist?
You mean those good God Fearin, Christian Southerners who enslaved other human beings and then denied them basic human rights for another 100yrs. You are talking about those Good Southerners.
You're right he is a historic figure, a man that will be forever known as a traitor.
1. No, I was clearly talking about modern Southerns, who are good people, and want to be abe to celebrate their history and culture like everyone else. It is telling that you have to work so hard to avoid what I am actually saying, to even pretend to defend your position.
Who wants to celebrate folks who enslaved folks and enacted Jim Crow Laws to discriminate against others.
2. He and all the Confederates were forgiven and pardoned long ago, by the very people that actually fought and defeated them. Your pretense of caring about that, is not credible. This is about your hatred and bigotry against modern Southern whites, and you know it.
Who were they forgiven and pardoned by? Andrew Johnson, another racist POS that was a Southerner. That would be like a Nazi pardoning Hitler and saying all is forgiven. These clowns were racist traitors and putting up statues and monuments for fools like you isn't going to change that.
1. What other group, do you examine and judge whether or not they are allowed to celebrate their heritage and culture?
2. They were forgiven and accepted back into America, by the rest of America, including, the very men that fought and defeated them. Who are you, to have the Moral Authority to over rule them and withdraw that forgiveness? FIVE FUCKING GENERATIONS AFTER THE FACT?
The Confederacy was treason.
What other group in the world is given a holiday to commemorate treason? Is their entire culture defined by this and only this? That is what you seem to be arguing.
YOur pretend outrage over the treason, is not credible at this late date. IN real history, AMERICA and AMERICANS got over that, long ago and for 5 generations, have been fine with the SOuth having regional pride as part of the larger American Identity.
So, your outrage is not credible. Seriously. Not even a little.
If you want to actually contribute to the discussion, instead of posting bs, why don't you try actually ANSWERING the QUESTIONS, you hit the reply button on?
1. What other group, do you examine and judge whether or not they are allowed to celebrate their heritage and culture?
2. They were forgiven and accepted back into America, by the rest of America, including, the very men that fought and defeated them. Who are you, to have the Moral Authority to over rule them and withdraw that forgiveness? FIVE FUCKING GENERATIONS AFTER THE FACT?
1. No, I was clearly talking about modern Southerns, who are good people, and want to be abe to celebrate their history and culture like everyone else. It is telling that you have to work so hard to avoid what I am actually saying, to even pretend to defend your position.
Who wants to celebrate folks who enslaved folks and enacted Jim Crow Laws to discriminate against others.
2. He and all the Confederates were forgiven and pardoned long ago, by the very people that actually fought and defeated them. Your pretense of caring about that, is not credible. This is about your hatred and bigotry against modern Southern whites, and you know it.
Who were they forgiven and pardoned by? Andrew Johnson, another racist POS that was a Southerner. That would be like a Nazi pardoning Hitler and saying all is forgiven. These clowns were racist traitors and putting up statues and monuments for fools like you isn't going to change that.
1. What other group, do you examine and judge whether or not they are allowed to celebrate their heritage and culture?
2. They were forgiven and accepted back into America, by the rest of America, including, the very men that fought and defeated them. Who are you, to have the Moral Authority to over rule them and withdraw that forgiveness? FIVE FUCKING GENERATIONS AFTER THE FACT?
The Confederacy was treason.
What other group in the world is given a holiday to commemorate treason? Is their entire culture defined by this and only this? That is what you seem to be arguing.
YOur pretend outrage over the treason, is not credible at this late date. IN real history, AMERICA and AMERICANS got over that, long ago and for 5 generations, have been fine with the SOuth having regional pride as part of the larger American Identity.
So, your outrage is not credible. Seriously. Not even a little.
If you want to actually contribute to the discussion, instead of posting bs, why don't you try actually ANSWERING the QUESTIONS, you hit the reply button on?
1. What other group, do you examine and judge whether or not they are allowed to celebrate their heritage and culture?
2. They were forgiven and accepted back into America, by the rest of America, including, the very men that fought and defeated them. Who are you, to have the Moral Authority to over rule them and withdraw that forgiveness? FIVE FUCKING GENERATIONS AFTER THE FACT?
Actually....in REAL history...no. One side did not get over it. As far as one side is concerned - the war is still being fought only the battlefields are white washing a bloody heritage into something noble.
If they want to maintain that as part of their culture and heritage - that's their choice. But there are OTHER people living there also who do not view it that way. People for whom that "culture and heritage" represented bondage and brutality and they TOO are part of the population.
\
Both of these have been answered, repeatedly.
1- the LCC (Lost Cause Cult)
2 - Explained above -- To the extent he's an "authority to defer to" it's his image and his request. Some third party cannot overrule one's own request of one's own image. That just isn't valid. Sure they can go ahead and put that statue up anyway, but they cannot do so without countermanding those wishes, and that remains. Forever.
1. Southern Pride and Heritage is not Lost Cause. Your claim otherwise is you misrepresenting tens of millions of good southern people, indeed, scores of millions of good Americans who support Historical Statues.
You mean those good God Fearin, Christian Southerners who enslaved other human beings and then denied them basic human rights for another 100yrs. You are talking about those Good Southerners.
2. But he does not own his image. He was a public figure and he is an historical figure of great importance. It is completely reasonable that he would be included in any movement to memorialize the service of the Confederates. I thought I might be getting though to you, but you wiggled away
You're right he is a historic figure, a man that will be forever known as a traitor.
1. No, I was clearly talking about modern Southerns, who are good people, and want to be abe to celebrate their history and culture like everyone else. It is telling that you have to work so hard to avoid what I am actually saying, to even pretend to defend your position.
Who wants to celebrate folks who enslaved folks and enacted Jim Crow Laws to discriminate against others.
2. He and all the Confederates were forgiven and pardoned long ago, by the very people that actually fought and defeated them. Your pretense of caring about that, is not credible. This is about your hatred and bigotry against modern Southern whites, and you know it.
Who were they forgiven and pardoned by? Andrew Johnson, another racist POS that was a Southerner. That would be like a Nazi pardoning Hitler and saying all is forgiven. These clowns were racist traitors and putting up statues and monuments for fools like you isn't going to change that.
1. What other group, do you examine and judge whether or not they are allowed to celebrate their heritage and culture?
2. They were forgiven and accepted back into America, by the rest of America, including, the very men that fought and defeated them.
Who are you, to have the Moral Authority to over rule them and withdraw that forgiveness? FIVE FUCKING GENERATIONS AFTER THE FACT?
1. Southern Pride and Heritage is not Lost Cause. Your claim otherwise is you misrepresenting tens of millions of good southern people, indeed, scores of millions of good Americans who support Historical Statues.
You mean those good God Fearin, Christian Southerners who enslaved other human beings and then denied them basic human rights for another 100yrs. You are talking about those Good Southerners.
2. But he does not own his image. He was a public figure and he is an historical figure of great importance. It is completely reasonable that he would be included in any movement to memorialize the service of the Confederates. I thought I might be getting though to you, but you wiggled away
You're right he is a historic figure, a man that will be forever known as a traitor.
1. No, I was clearly talking about modern Southerns, who are good people, and want to be abe to celebrate their history and culture like everyone else. It is telling that you have to work so hard to avoid what I am actually saying, to even pretend to defend your position.
Who wants to celebrate folks who enslaved folks and enacted Jim Crow Laws to discriminate against others.
2. He and all the Confederates were forgiven and pardoned long ago, by the very people that actually fought and defeated them. Your pretense of caring about that, is not credible. This is about your hatred and bigotry against modern Southern whites, and you know it.
Who were they forgiven and pardoned by? Andrew Johnson, another racist POS that was a Southerner. That would be like a Nazi pardoning Hitler and saying all is forgiven. These clowns were racist traitors and putting up statues and monuments for fools like you isn't going to change that.
1. What other group, do you examine and judge whether or not they are allowed to celebrate their heritage and culture?
So you are proud of a racist, inhumane heritage and culture. Sorry, I won't be celebrating with you.
2. They were forgiven and accepted back into America, by the rest of America, including, the very men that fought and defeated them.
So were the Nazis, but you don't see statues and monuments in Germany for them.
Who are you, to have the Moral Authority to over rule them and withdraw that forgiveness? FIVE FUCKING GENERATIONS AFTER THE FACT?
How many generations are removed from Jim Crow racism in the South? So you go from taking the shackles off the hands and feet to shackling the mind and you think that should be celebrated.
There were no "democrats" --- or even Democrats (learn the difference) in the Confederacy. There were no Republicans, no Whigs, no Constitutional Unionists, no Know Nothings, no Federalists, no Democratic Republicans, no NOTHING. The Confederacy lasted all of four years and it never developed ANY political parties Neither did this country in ITS first four (and more) years (Wash(ington's political party was ... what?)
Just another dance, What happened to all those slave owners? they all morphed into the democratic party...
There's no such thing. There is a Democratic Party, which got put together a good three hundred years after Slavery began on these shores, it having no need of a political party to buy and sell slaves, and those slave owners turned over for generations and centuries before that point. The founder of that party, who was a POTUS candidate for the Free Soil Party, got beat in his re-election bid by a Whig slaveowner who was succeeded by a Democrat slaveowner who was succeeded by another Whig slaveowner who was succeeded by two more Democrats who didn't own slaves and didn't believe in it, so I'm not seeing your pattern here.
NOBODY ANYWHERE has ever, in the history of humanity, needed a political party to engage in Slavery. It wasn't a political condition. It was a commercial condition.
The simple fact REMAINS --- the Confederacy had no political parties. Presumably had it survived the War and developed beyond its four years it would have come up with some but ------------------ it didn't. I really don't give a shit what kind of mythology you'd like to desperately cling to like some security blanket, them's the facts.
and davis a democrat was part of the house and senate of the USA.The post I answered that you cut out, said this:
As answered, the US Senate and House of Representatives, were and still are by definition part of the government of the USA --- Not the CSA.
It's "Davis", not "davis" and "Democrat" not "democrat"; it's "House" not "house" and "Senate" not "senate". After that you just killed your own point by finally finding the shift key.
What a maroon.
What does any of that have to do with this Orwellian, Soviet style attempt to destroy history? Why are people acting like the Taliban and destroying statues? I know you're a hard core leftist communitst. But those like you and other unpatriotic individuals have no right to destroy our national history.Of Southern hatred and bigotryAnd the democratic party.
Bigotry that existed for two hundred years before the Democratic Party
Why in the hell would you honor men that were traitors to the country. I don't give a damn if that was your great, great grandfather or not. Do you think Birmingham, AL should have a statue or monument of Bull Connor on display.
Doesn't the DNC already have one? What about Albert Gore? Fritz Hollings, Robert Byrd, Orval Faubus? All great democrats. Of course "great democrat" is like "great raw sewage."
Well don't forget Trent Lott, Jesse Helms, Strom Thurmond. Republicans are in the same sewer.
Yeah, you said that. And then I pointed out how he changed in life, while you are currently working to tear this nation apart.
So, like I said, uncensored point is likely on. As you know, or you would have directly challenged it.
Actually what Pothead ("Uncensored") said was that Lee, quote, "never owned a slave in his life".
He was wrong about that, and Brutha did directly challenge it.
And yet, Lee, as I said, lost, surrendered and later redeemed himself by becoming a national icon of reconciliation and unity, while superbruther is actively trying to tear this nation apart, so, uncensored's point could still be pretty much on.
Really, tell us what Lee actually did to reconcile and unite the country. Please enlighten us.
...t.
Neither one of us cares what the details are. So, why the fuck are you asking? Nothing I say could possibly make a single impression in your hate filled bigoted mind.
YOu are against these memorials, because you are a racist and a bigot, and reasons are shit you come up with to justify your hate and racism.
How does opposing those memorials make him a racist?
The USA had slavery for three centuries before it was the USA.
AND?
