USMB Sports Bar

[TheGreatGatsby]

Let me ask you, do you think LBJ is a great defensive player? Do you think Kobe is a great defensive player?

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

Bird couldn't play defense. That's the general consensus among people who follow the game closely.

Anybody who follows the game closely, knows that's a farce. There is no such consensus. Anybody who believes that stuff, believes the myths and has not studied Bird's game to any significant degree.

 

[Rocko]

Bruce Bowen was a so-called defensive stopper. Guess what though? He still had shortcomings on defense. He didn't get many steals, defensive rebounds or blocks. Would I object if someone called him a great defensive player though? No. There are various ways one can be a great defensive player.

A great defensive player is not always the so-called defensive stopper (other times) he is. Were you to say so, then you wouldn't be counting Bill Russuell or Wilt Chamberlain as great defensive players. See how stupid that is?

And don't tell me about thick heads. Only an f'ing idiot, actually believes that you can be top 30 all-freaking-time in steals per game and defensive rebounds per game, get 3 clutch defensive plays to get his team into the finals, lead his team in steals all 5 finals, and have LBJ-liked defensive numbers in his last healthy playoff series (2.7 stls, 1.5 blks) and not be a great defender. Only an idiot truly believes that.

And your counter? That he isn't playing the role of defensive stopper with everything else that he does. That he should somehow focus on the weakest part of his game.

Bird couldn't play defense. That's the general consensus among people who follow the game closely. Why is that? Is it a conspiracy against Bird?

I already told you, the guy made some great plays and was a great player, but defense was not his forte. The guy couldn't stop a nosebleed. Only a moron would think he's a great defender because he got rebounds. Charles Barkley has more steals and rebounds than Bird. Was he a great defender?

I would say that Barkley was an under-rated defender. But I would personally hesitate to call him a great defender. Though, from a statistical standpoint, one could make a case for it.

If you look at his second and third year numbers; about 2 steals, 1.5 blocks, 8.5 d-rebs, you would think well maybe during those years at least. But there's two things:

1. He was an under-sized PF, so it was easy for guys like McHale to have his way with him in the post.

2. CB is likely one of the top 10 raw talents to come out of college. But the problem is his work ethic, fundamentals and attitude was crap; especially early in his career. He was able to put up great stats while often not playing great defense whereas a guy like Bird played solid, well-thought defense on every play. And frankly, that's the essence of why Barkley got the short end of the stick vs. Bird.

Barkley sucked on D.

 

[Rocko]

Let me ask you, do you think LBJ is a great defensive player? Do you think Kobe is a great defensive player?

Lebron is, Kobe isn't.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

Barkley sucked on D.

I was never impressed enough with Barkley's D to go to the mat for him. But he didn't get the nickname the round mound of rebounds for nothing. The dude was a beast on the boards early in his career.

I would point out that you're saying Barkley sucked on D and that LBJ was great on D when their career averages are:

Barkley: 1.5 stls, 0.8 blks, 7.7 D-Rebs
LBJ: 1.7 stls, 0.8 blks, 6.0 D-Rebs

Stats can be misleading; but to say one sucks and one is great while their stats are so close is a bit peculiar.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

Let me ask you, do you think LBJ is a great defensive player? Do you think Kobe is a great defensive player?

Lebron is, Kobe isn't.

And what makes Lebron so great and Kobe not great? Again, I don't see the glaring difference based on stats. But again, I don't think stats are the final teller since a lot of great defensive players have not so great defensive stats and a lot of not-so-good defenders have good stats. But I'd still like to know what you're basing it on exactly?

LBJ: 1.7 stls, 0.8 blks, 6.0 d-reb
Kobe: 1.5 stls, 0.5 blks, 4.1 d-reb

But I'll get more directly to my point. You've been putting heavy stock on a player being great on the basis of being a lock-down defender. Why then wasn't LBJ stepping up and locking down Dirk at any point during the 2011 Finals? Why was Jason Terry busting all kinds of shots in LBJ's eye the last three games of that series? Why did Pierce bust the pivotal shot in LBJ's eye during the 2012 ECF Gm 5? Why did Pierce light LBJ up in the 08 semis game 5 of the for 41 pts?

 

[Rocko]

Barkley sucked on D.

I was never impressed enough with Barkley's D to go to the mat for him. But he didn't get the nickname the round mound of rebounds for nothing. The dude was a beast on the boards early in his career.

I would point out that you're saying Barkley sucked on D and that LBJ was great on D when their career averages are:

Barkley: 1.5 stls, 0.8 blks, 7.7 D-Rebs
LBJ: 1.7 stls, 0.8 blks, 6.0 D-Rebs

Stats can be misleading; but to say one sucks and one is great while their stats are so close is a bit peculiar.

I'm the one who told you those stats mean shit. What are you even talking about?

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

Barkley sucked on D.

I was never impressed enough with Barkley's D to go to the mat for him. But he didn't get the nickname the round mound of rebounds for nothing. The dude was a beast on the boards early in his career.

I would point out that you're saying Barkley sucked on D and that LBJ was great on D when their career averages are:

Barkley: 1.5 stls, 0.8 blks, 7.7 D-Rebs
LBJ: 1.7 stls, 0.8 blks, 6.0 D-Rebs

Stats can be misleading; but to say one sucks and one is great while their stats are so close is a bit peculiar.

I'm the one who told you those stats mean shit. What are you even talking about?

That's sort of my point. You completely disregard any stats you want and have a pass to buy all the hype you want.

 

[Rocko]

At this stage Kobe is not an elite defender. He used to be though.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

At this stage Kobe is not an elite defender. He used to be though.

At no point has Kobe been a great defender. Great defenders constantly make defensive imprints on the games. And Kobe's been scorched for 30 plus on a consistent basis. Especially during the good years, Kobe coasted on defense. I actually think Kobe has played better defense this year than he has at any point in his career; even though he has lost a half a step. Defense is a mentality and frankly, for a long time Kobe did not have it. It didn't help that the league was reinforcing him with defensive accolades. He may have started to try sooner.

 

[Rocko]

I was never impressed enough with Barkley's D to go to the mat for him. But he didn't get the nickname the round mound of rebounds for nothing. The dude was a beast on the boards early in his career.

I would point out that you're saying Barkley sucked on D and that LBJ was great on D when their career averages are:

Barkley: 1.5 stls, 0.8 blks, 7.7 D-Rebs
LBJ: 1.7 stls, 0.8 blks, 6.0 D-Rebs

Stats can be misleading; but to say one sucks and one is great while their stats are so close is a bit peculiar.

I'm the one who told you those stats mean shit. What are you even talking about?

That's sort of my point. You completely disregard any stats you want and have a pass to buy all the hype you want.

Frist of all, the only stat you provided is steals. You're argument that defensive rebounds should be considered is laughable.

 

[Rocko]

At this stage Kobe is not an elite defender. He used to be though.

At no point has Kobe been a great defender. Great defenders constantly make defensive imprints on the games. And Kobe's been scorched for 30 plus on a consistent basis. Especially during the good years, Kobe coasted on defense. I actually think Kobe has played better defense this year than he has at any point in his career; even though he has lost a half a step. Defense is a mentality and frankly, for a long time Kobe did not have it. It didn't help that the league was reinforcing him with defensive accolades. He may have started to try sooner.

He was on 8 all NBA defensive first teams. How many was Bird on?

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

I'm the one who told you those stats mean shit. What are you even talking about?

That's sort of my point. You completely disregard any stats you want and have a pass to buy all the hype you want.

Frist of all, the only stat you provided is steals. You're argument that defensive rebounds should be considered is laughable.

I didn't know stat lines with three stats, were considered one stat. Who knew? And the idea that defensive rebounds is not a part of defense is laughable. You can play all the great defense in the world, but if you're getting out-boarded then it's all for naught.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

At this stage Kobe is not an elite defender. He used to be though.

At no point has Kobe been a great defender. Great defenders constantly make defensive imprints on the games. And Kobe's been scorched for 30 plus on a consistent basis. Especially during the good years, Kobe coasted on defense. I actually think Kobe has played better defense this year than he has at any point in his career; even though he has lost a half a step. Defense is a mentality and frankly, for a long time Kobe did not have it. It didn't help that the league was reinforcing him with defensive accolades. He may have started to try sooner.

He was on 8 all NBA defensive first teams. How many was Bird on?

I don't know and I don't care. That was my point. I've seen Kobe have terrible defensive year after year and still get voted on the all-defensive team with regularity. That accolade is a joke and anybody with knowledge of the game knows that.

 

[Rocko]

At no point has Kobe been a great defender. Great defenders constantly make defensive imprints on the games. And Kobe's been scorched for 30 plus on a consistent basis. Especially during the good years, Kobe coasted on defense. I actually think Kobe has played better defense this year than he has at any point in his career; even though he has lost a half a step. Defense is a mentality and frankly, for a long time Kobe did not have it. It didn't help that the league was reinforcing him with defensive accolades. He may have started to try sooner.

He was on 8 all NBA defensive first teams. How many was Bird on?

I don't know and I don't care. That was my point. I've seen Kobe have terrible defensive year after year and still get voted on the all-defensive team with regularity. That accolade is a joke and anybody with knowledge of the game knows that.

So, it's a conspiracy against Bird?

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

He was on 8 all NBA defensive first teams. How many was Bird on?

I don't know and I don't care. That was my point. I've seen Kobe have terrible defensive year after year and still get voted on the all-defensive team with regularity. That accolade is a joke and anybody with knowledge of the game knows that.

So, it's a conspiracy against Bird?

No. Just a reality check that the NBA wants to market Kobe as a great defensive player whether he is or not.

BTW - you just got done saying Kobe is not a great defender and then your counted off his all-time defensive team numbers. Whether you realize it or not, you're the one calling out a conspiracy theory.

 

[Rocko]

I don't know and I don't care. That was my point. I've seen Kobe have terrible defensive year after year and still get voted on the all-defensive team with regularity. That accolade is a joke and anybody with knowledge of the game knows that.

So, it's a conspiracy against Bird?

No. Just a reality check that the NBA wants to market Kobe as a great defensive player whether he is or not.

BTW - you just got done saying Kobe is not a great defender and then your counted off his all-time defensive team numbers. Whether you realize it or not, you're the one calling out a conspiracy theory.

I clarified- he's not a great defender anymore.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

So, it's a conspiracy against Bird?

No. Just a reality check that the NBA wants to market Kobe as a great defensive player whether he is or not.

BTW - you just got done saying Kobe is not a great defender and then your counted off his all-time defensive team numbers. Whether you realize it or not, you're the one calling out a conspiracy theory.

I clarified- he's not a great defender anymore.

He never was.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

Number of all-defensive teams Kobe has made: 8
Number of seasons with more than 2 or more stls per game: 1
Number of seasons with more than 1.0 or more blks per game: 1* (During lock-out season)

You're a marketers dream. Just buy whatever they shove down your throat. Don't feel too bad. They feast upon ignorant fans like you.

 

[Rocko]

No. Just a reality check that the NBA wants to market Kobe as a great defensive player whether he is or not.

BTW - you just got done saying Kobe is not a great defender and then your counted off his all-time defensive team numbers. Whether you realize it or not, you're the one calling out a conspiracy theory.

I clarified- he's not a great defender anymore.

He never was.

Another thing - voting for all defensive teams is done by the coaches, so there goes you're theory.