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[TheGreatGatsby]

If Kevin Love dominated stls like Bird did or blocks like Olajuwon, I'd call him a great defender. He is most certainly a solid defender and a plus on defense for his dominance of the boards.

 

[Rocko]

That's convenient how you skipped over how Doctor J scored 6 on 3-13 shooting to Bird's 42 on 17-23 shooting. How could a great player like Doctor J get his ass so thorougly whooped if Bird was such a horrible defender that was constantly getting blown by? You don't have an answer b/c like an idiot, you ignore data in favor of urban myths.

And I've shown you how Bird dominated steals and defensive rebounds. Are you that stupid that you have to ask? Apparently, you are. I went over that in pretty extensive detail.

And I'm not rationalizing anything btw. I'm accepting reality while you hold to your urban myths and ignore the data and your eye balls.

Gambling is loaded word. Bird played the angles and had the best eye hand coordination to constantly rip people. He played smart and that's why he dominated w/o having to be the fastest player on the court.

I'm still waiting for you to give me some sort of data or real evidence that Bird was not a great defender. You've given me innuendo at best so far.

I didn't even read half the retarded drivel you posted about Bird's D because I know it's all bullshit. Who cares about what he did against Dr. J in one game? He probably didn't even guard Dr. J. Defensive rebounds!?!?!? Maybe you are that stupid. If defensive rebounding means good defense then David Lee, Kevin Love, and Zach Randolph are all great defenders LMAO. I told you they didn't keep advanced stats is his day so the statistical evidence is limited. What evidence have you presented? 9 blocks in 6 games? You keep regurgitating the same meeningless shit over and over, followed by stupid cliches. Anyone with half a brain can see right through you arguments. Don't think for a second you've made any good points in this discussion, because you haven't.

That was my point is that you don't bother to read shit b/c you'd rather be ignorant and make half ass arugments. And let me emphasize the word, ass.

And yes, Bird did guard Dr. J in that game and McHale guarded Barkley.

I've given you mounds of evidence, way to cherry pick one isolated stat (9 blks in 6 games) and pretend that is the crux of my argument. Are you seriously that retarded? B/C anybody who is college educated could spot that fallacy a mile away.

And I've made mounds of good points. You've relied on urban myths. And I'd like an answer to the question, do you even play ball? B/C you clearly don't get that you don't talk trash if you're not able to back it up on both ends of the court. And Bird was was a notorious trash talker.

Of course I played ball. So, now Bird was a great defender because he talked trash?? Get the fuck out of here.

 

[Rocko]

And again, going back to another point you conveniently ignored. How come only one player has matched or surpassed Bird's 84 playoff record of 54 steals? That was back when first round series were 3 games too btw. You just don't know dick dude. You want to rely on urban myths.

Is it possible to have a lot of steals and still be a bad defender?

 

[Rocko]

If Kevin Love dominated stls like Bird did or blocks like Olajuwon, I'd call him a great defender. He is most certainly a solid defender and a plus on defense for his dominance of the boards.

More proof you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

I didn't even read half the retarded drivel you posted about Bird's D because I know it's all bullshit. Who cares about what he did against Dr. J in one game? He probably didn't even guard Dr. J. Defensive rebounds!?!?!? Maybe you are that stupid. If defensive rebounding means good defense then David Lee, Kevin Love, and Zach Randolph are all great defenders LMAO. I told you they didn't keep advanced stats is his day so the statistical evidence is limited. What evidence have you presented? 9 blocks in 6 games? You keep regurgitating the same meeningless shit over and over, followed by stupid cliches. Anyone with half a brain can see right through you arguments. Don't think for a second you've made any good points in this discussion, because you haven't.

That was my point is that you don't bother to read shit b/c you'd rather be ignorant and make half ass arugments. And let me emphasize the word, ass.

And yes, Bird did guard Dr. J in that game and McHale guarded Barkley.

I've given you mounds of evidence, way to cherry pick one isolated stat (9 blks in 6 games) and pretend that is the crux of my argument. Are you seriously that retarded? B/C anybody who is college educated could spot that fallacy a mile away.

And I've made mounds of good points. You've relied on urban myths. And I'd like an answer to the question, do you even play ball? B/C you clearly don't get that you don't talk trash if you're not able to back it up on both ends of the court. And Bird was was a notorious trash talker.

Of course I played ball. So, now Bird was a great defender because he talked trash?? Get the fuck out of here.

He's not a great defender b/c he talks trash. But if he was the total shitty defender you pretend he was, he wouldn't be talking trash while schooling Dr. J 42-6. So you get the fuck out of here. And again, I've shown you that Bird was continually top 2 of 3 main defensive stats consistently for a freaking decade dude. You've tried to refute that with alleged advanced defensive stats, whatever the fuck that's supposed to be about, I'm not even sure you know.

Also, I would doubt if anyone else in the modern era (stat keeping era) has led his team in stls in all 5 finals.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

If Kevin Love dominated stls like Bird did or blocks like Olajuwon, I'd call him a great defender. He is most certainly a solid defender and a plus on defense for his dominance of the boards.

More proof you don't know what you're talking about.

More proof that you don't know the fuck what you're talking about. A defensive rebound is generally just as important as a steal b/c it's one less shot for the opponent either way. Find me a coach that says 10.4 defensive rebounds per game doesn't make a guy a solid defender and I'll show you a guy who won't be coaching in the league very long. Again, your lack of understanding of the game is STAGGERING.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

And again, going back to another point you conveniently ignored. How come only one player has matched or surpassed Bird's 84 playoff record of 54 steals? That was back when first round series were 3 games too btw. You just don't know dick dude. You want to rely on urban myths.

Is it possible to have a lot of steals and still be a bad defender?

Yes. But I've never refuted you on that basis.

 

[Rocko]

If Kevin Love dominated stls like Bird did or blocks like Olajuwon, I'd call him a great defender. He is most certainly a solid defender and a plus on defense for his dominance of the boards.

More proof you don't know what you're talking about.

Kevin Love has a career defensive rating of 107. That means for every 100 possessions against his defense, an average of 107 points are scored. He is atrocious on defense.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

If Kevin Love dominated stls like Bird did or blocks like Olajuwon, I'd call him a great defender. He is most certainly a solid defender and a plus on defense for his dominance of the boards.

More proof you don't know what you're talking about.

Kevin Love has a career defensive rating of 107. That means for every 100 possessions against his defense, an average of 107 points are scored. He is atrocious on defense.

I put limited stock in those new age stats. They easily make good defenders look bad and good defenders look bad.

 

[Rocko]

And again, going back to another point you conveniently ignored. How come only one player has matched or surpassed Bird's 84 playoff record of 54 steals? That was back when first round series were 3 games too btw. You just don't know dick dude. You want to rely on urban myths.

Is it possible to have a lot of steals and still be a bad defender?

Yes. But I've never refuted you on that basis.

So, we're in agreement on that. I contend that even though Bird got some steals, he was a bad defender. To play defense you have to be able to move your feet quickly. Bird couldn't do that. Fact.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

And again, going back to another point you conveniently ignored. How come only one player has matched or surpassed Bird's 84 playoff record of 54 steals? That was back when first round series were 3 games too btw. You just don't know dick dude. You want to rely on urban myths.

Is it possible to have a lot of steals and still be a bad defender?

Yes. But I've never refuted you on that basis.

Allen Iverson had a very bad gamble percentage while leading the league in steals. Teams often got open shots. The defense when Jordan was gone was much improved. That doesn't mean that Jordan wasn't capable of playing great defense. But he often took a lot of risks to pad his stats and he often coasted on defense to preserve energy for the offensive end.

 

[Rocko]

More proof you don't know what you're talking about.

Kevin Love has a career defensive rating of 107. That means for every 100 possessions against his defense, an average of 107 points are scored. He is atrocious on defense.

I put limited stock in those new age stats. They easily make good defenders look bad and good defenders look bad.

Kevin love, Pau Gasol, Ama're Stoudemire, David Lee, and Zach Randolph are the worst big man defenders in the NBA. They're all good rebounders.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

Is it possible to have a lot of steals and still be a bad defender?

Yes. But I've never refuted you on that basis.

So, we're in agreement on that. I contend that even though Bird got some steals, he was a bad defender. To play defense you have to be able to move your feet quickly. Bird couldn't do that. Fact.

On that basis, Dikembe Mutumbo would be one of the worst defenders of all-time.

 

[Rocko]

Yes. But I've never refuted you on that basis.

So, we're in agreement on that. I contend that even though Bird got some steals, he was a bad defender. To play defense you have to be able to move your feet quickly. Bird couldn't do that. Fact.

On that basis, Dikembe Mutumbo would be one of the worst defenders of all-time.

He moved his feet well compared to centers. You play defense with your feet and not your hands. The first thing any coach will teach you.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

So, we're in agreement on that. I contend that even though Bird got some steals, he was a bad defender. To play defense you have to be able to move your feet quickly. Bird couldn't do that. Fact.

On that basis, Dikembe Mutumbo would be one of the worst defenders of all-time.

He moved his feet well compared to centers. You play defense with your feet and not your hands. The first thing any coach will teach you.

He actually didn't move his feet well at all for a center. He was good at timing his jumps and he had long arms.

Yes, moving your feet is pivotal and Bird had to do that just like any other defender. The difference is that his instincts and hand-eye coordination was unsurpassed.

And again, you're subscribing to the urban myth that Bird was so slow. He wasn't. He was within the range of quickness of the typical 6'9" forward. And if you watch early 80's vids especially, you'll see that he was actually even pretty quick on both ends of the court.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

During the 81 ECF Gm 7 (the toughest game you'll ever see); Bird defended against the center Darryl Dawkins shot and forced him to throw it to hard from point blank. At the other end of the rim, he undercut the other center, Caldwell Jones for the rebound. He then brought it down court and banked the game winner.

During the 85 ECF Gm 5, with the Sixers having a shot to make the winning basket, Bird ripped his player (not a passing lane steal) and the C's went to the Finals.

During the 87 ECF Gm 5 with the series tied 2-2 and the Pistons 5 seconds from going back to Detroit with a 3-2 lead, Bird stole the ball and passed to DJ for the game winning lay-up.

So you're telling me that a guy can make 3 stls that directly lead to Finals appearances and lead his team in the finals in stls all 5 times and be 30th all-time in stls per game and be top 100 in defensive rebounds per game. He can do all that and still not be a great defender? That's laughable.

 

[Rocko]

During the 81 ECF Gm 7 (the toughest game you'll ever see); Bird defended against the center Darryl Dawkins shot and forced him to throw it to hard from point blank. At the other end of the rim, he undercut the other center, Caldwell Jones for the rebound. He then brought it down court and banked the game winner.

During the 85 ECF Gm 5, with the Sixers having a shot to make the winning basket, Bird ripped his player (not a passing lane steal) and the C's went to the Finals.

During the 87 ECF Gm 5 with the series tied 2-2 and thge Pistons 5 seconds from going back to Detroit with a 3-2 lead, Bird stole the ball and passed to DJ for the game winning lay-up.

So you're telling me that a guy can make 3 stls that directly lead to Finals appearances and lead his team in the finals in stls all 5 times and be 30th all-time in stls per game and be top 100 in defensive rebounds per game. He can do all that and still not be a great defender? That's laughable.

Get this through your thick head- Larry Bird made some plays on defense because he hustled and was smart, but he lacked the ability to be a defensive stopper, which is what a great defender is. You're debating he's a great defender either because you have such a pro Bird bias as fan or you lack a significant amount of brain cells. I'm starting to think it's the ladder.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

During the 81 ECF Gm 7 (the toughest game you'll ever see); Bird defended against the center Darryl Dawkins shot and forced him to throw it to hard from point blank. At the other end of the rim, he undercut the other center, Caldwell Jones for the rebound. He then brought it down court and banked the game winner.

During the 85 ECF Gm 5, with the Sixers having a shot to make the winning basket, Bird ripped his player (not a passing lane steal) and the C's went to the Finals.

During the 87 ECF Gm 5 with the series tied 2-2 and thge Pistons 5 seconds from going back to Detroit with a 3-2 lead, Bird stole the ball and passed to DJ for the game winning lay-up.

So you're telling me that a guy can make 3 stls that directly lead to Finals appearances and lead his team in the finals in stls all 5 times and be 30th all-time in stls per game and be top 100 in defensive rebounds per game. He can do all that and still not be a great defender? That's laughable.

Get this through your thick head- Larry Bird made some plays on defense because he hustled and was smart, but he lacked the ability to be a defensive stopper, which is what a great defender is. You're debating he's a great defender either because you have such a pro Bird bias as fan or you lack a significant amount of brain cells. I'm starting to think it's the ladder.

Bruce Bowen was a so-called defensive stopper. Guess what though? He still had shortcomings on defense. He didn't get many steals, defensive rebounds or blocks. Would I object if someone called him a great defensive player though? No. There are various ways one can be a great defensive player.

A great defensive player is not always the so-called defensive stopper (other times) he is. Were you to say so, then you wouldn't be counting Bill Russell or Wilt Chamberlain as great defensive players. See how stupid that is?

And don't tell me about thick heads. Only an f'ing idiot, actually believes that you can be top 30 all-freaking-time in steals per game and defensive rebounds per game, get 3 clutch defensive plays to get his team into the finals, lead his team in steals all 5 finals, and have LBJ-liked defensive numbers in his last healthy playoff series (2.7 stls, 1.5 blks) and not be a great defender. Only an idiot truly believes that.

And your counter? That he isn't playing the role of defensive stopper with everything else that he does. That he should somehow focus on the weakest part of his game.

 

[Rocko]

During the 81 ECF Gm 7 (the toughest game you'll ever see); Bird defended against the center Darryl Dawkins shot and forced him to throw it to hard from point blank. At the other end of the rim, he undercut the other center, Caldwell Jones for the rebound. He then brought it down court and banked the game winner.

During the 85 ECF Gm 5, with the Sixers having a shot to make the winning basket, Bird ripped his player (not a passing lane steal) and the C's went to the Finals.

During the 87 ECF Gm 5 with the series tied 2-2 and thge Pistons 5 seconds from going back to Detroit with a 3-2 lead, Bird stole the ball and passed to DJ for the game winning lay-up.

So you're telling me that a guy can make 3 stls that directly lead to Finals appearances and lead his team in the finals in stls all 5 times and be 30th all-time in stls per game and be top 100 in defensive rebounds per game. He can do all that and still not be a great defender? That's laughable.

Get this through your thick head- Larry Bird made some plays on defense because he hustled and was smart, but he lacked the ability to be a defensive stopper, which is what a great defender is. You're debating he's a great defender either because you have such a pro Bird bias as fan or you lack a significant amount of brain cells. I'm starting to think it's the ladder.

Bruce Bowen was a so-called defensive stopper. Guess what though? He still had shortcomings on defense. He didn't get many steals, defensive rebounds or blocks. Would I object if someone called him a great defensive player though? No. There are various ways one can be a great defensive player.

A great defensive player is not always the so-called defensive stopper (other times) he is. Were you to say so, then you wouldn't be counting Bill Russell or Wilt Chamberlain as great defensive players. See how stupid that is?

And don't tell me about thick heads. Only an f'ing idiot, actually believes that you can be top 30 all-freaking-time in steals per game and defensive rebounds per game, get 3 clutch defensive plays to get his team into the finals, lead his team in steals all 5 finals, and have LBJ-liked defensive numbers in his last healthy playoff series (2.7 stls, 1.5 blks) and not be a great defender. Only an idiot truly believes that.

And your counter? That he isn't playing the role of defensive stopper with everything else that he does. That he should somehow focus on the weakest part of his game.

Bird couldn't play defense. That's the general consensus among people who follow the game closely. Why is that? Is it a conspiracy against Bird?

I already told you, the guy made some great plays and was a great player, but defense was not his forte. The guy couldn't stop a nosebleed. Only a moron would think he's a great defender because he got rebounds. Charles Barkley has more steals and rebounds than Bird. Was he a great defender?

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

Get this through your thick head- Larry Bird made some plays on defense because he hustled and was smart, but he lacked the ability to be a defensive stopper, which is what a great defender is. You're debating he's a great defender either because you have such a pro Bird bias as fan or you lack a significant amount of brain cells. I'm starting to think it's the ladder.

Bruce Bowen was a so-called defensive stopper. Guess what though? He still had shortcomings on defense. He didn't get many steals, defensive rebounds or blocks. Would I object if someone called him a great defensive player though? No. There are various ways one can be a great defensive player.

A great defensive player is not always the so-called defensive stopper (other times) he is. Were you to say so, then you wouldn't be counting Bill Russell or Wilt Chamberlain as great defensive players. See how stupid that is?

And don't tell me about thick heads. Only an f'ing idiot, actually believes that you can be top 30 all-freaking-time in steals per game and defensive rebounds per game, get 3 clutch defensive plays to get his team into the finals, lead his team in steals all 5 finals, and have LBJ-liked defensive numbers in his last healthy playoff series (2.7 stls, 1.5 blks) and not be a great defender. Only an idiot truly believes that.

And your counter? That he isn't playing the role of defensive stopper with everything else that he does. That he should somehow focus on the weakest part of his game.

Bird couldn't play defense. That's the general consensus among people who follow the game closely. Why is that? Is it a conspiracy against Bird?

I already told you, the guy made some great plays and was a great player, but defense was not his forte. The guy couldn't stop a nosebleed. Only a moron would think he's a great defender because he got rebounds. Charles Barkley has more steals and rebounds than Bird. Was he a great defender?

I would say that Barkley was an under-rated defender. But I would personally hesitate to call him a great defender. Though, from a statistical standpoint, one could make a case for it.

If you look at his second and third year numbers; about 2 steals, 1.5 blocks, 8.5 d-rebs, you would think well maybe during those years at least. But there's two things:

1. He was an under-sized PF, so it was easy for guys like McHale to have his way with him in the post.

2. CB is likely one of the top 10 raw talents to come out of college. But the problem is his work ethic, fundamentals and attitude was crap; especially early in his career. He was able to put up great stats while often not playing great defense whereas a guy like Bird played solid, well-thought defense on every play. And frankly, that's the essence of why Barkley got the short end of the stick vs. Bird.