Was seccession illegal?

[bripat9643]

Annapolis is a military base, just like Ft Sumter. All military bases are subject to the laws of the state where they are located, just like Ft Sumter and Annapolis. Your job is to explain why there is some fundamental difference between Ft Sumter and Annapolis.

Which part of "Resolved, That this State do cede to the United States, all the right title and claim of South Carolina to the site of Fort Sumter and the requisite quantity of adjacent territory"

View attachment 122064


As for my source, I used ebook:
Acts and Joint Resolutions of the General Assembly of the State of South Carolina
By South Carolina

Acts and joint resolutions of the General Assembly of the State of South Carolina. (Journal, magazine, 1776) [WorldCat.org]

​

They ceded the property rights, not jurisdiction.

Ft Sumter was within the boundaries of South Carolina. End of story.

 

[Richard-H]

There is no exit clause in the Constitution. When each State joined the Union, they were aware of this.

It's not impossible to add an exit clause to the Constitution in the form of an Amendment.

If the Confederates had worked on adding such a clause - it would have been eventually added. They could have left the Union without a question.

So, the verdict is: the Confederate States were too stupid to leave the Union.

 

[bripat9643]

There is no exit clause in the Constitution. When each State joined the Union, they were aware of this.

It's not impossible to add an exit clause to the Constitution in the form of an Amendment.

If the Confederates had worked on adding such a clause - it would have been eventually added. They could have left the Union without a question.

So, the verdict is: the Confederate States were too stupid to leave the Union.

As explained numerous times, if a contract or treaty does not cover a particular issue, then there's nothing regarding that issue binding on the parties to the agreement. Hence, states were free to secede. If a contract doesn't mention any penalties for breaking the contract, then there are none.

That's settled law and settled international law.

You and the rest of the Lincoln cult are trying to claim that there is some imaginary clause in the Constitution that can't be found in the literal text. That's about as credible as claiming Santa Claus is real.

 

[my2¢]

They ceded the property rights, not jurisdiction.

Ft Sumter was within the boundaries of South Carolina. End of story.

You best give up, you've presented nothing in support of your argument that South Carolina was within its right to claim Fort Sumter as its own. I on the other hand presented the legislation act in which lays out the fact that Fort Sumter was ceded by South Carolina to the United States of America.

 

[bripat9643]

They ceded the property rights, not jurisdiction.

Ft Sumter was within the boundaries of South Carolina. End of story.

You best give up, you've presented nothing in support of your argument that South Carolina was within its right to claim Fort Sumter as its own. I on the other hand presented the legislation act in which lays out the fact that Fort Sumter was ceded by South Carolina to the United States of America.

Your document says the property is ceded, not the jurisdiction. In fact, it specifically states the South Carolina retains jurisdiction.

Note, from your referenced document:

"Resolved, That this state do cede to the United States, all the right, title and claim of South Carolina to the site of Fort Sumter and the requisite quantity of adjacent territory, Provided, That all processes, civil and criminal issued under the authority of this State, or any officer thereof, shall and may be served and executed upon the same, and any person there being who may be implicated by law; and that the said land, site and structures enumerated, shall be forever exempt from liability to pay any tax to this state.​

In other words, the state of South Carolina explicitly retained legal jurisdiction over the property.

 

[Richard-H]

There is no exit clause in the Constitution. When each State joined the Union, they were aware of this.

It's not impossible to add an exit clause to the Constitution in the form of an Amendment.

If the Confederates had worked on adding such a clause - it would have been eventually added. They could have left the Union without a question.

So, the verdict is: the Confederate States were too stupid to leave the Union.

As explained numerous times, if a contract or treaty does not cover a particular issue, then there's nothing regarding that issue binding on the parties to the agreement. Hence, states were free to secede. If a contract doesn't mention any penalties for breaking the contract, then there are none.

That's settled law and settled international law.

You and the rest of the Lincoln cult are trying to claim that there is some imaginary clause in the Constitution that can't be found in the literal text. That's about as credible as claiming Santa Claus is real.

The States applied for admission to the Union and were accepted. That's the only contract that was made. No conditions for secession were made at the time that they joined.

Contracts either have an exit clause or they do not. Exiting a contract which does not have an exit clause is a violation of that contract unless you can prove that the other party violated the contract. Mere omission of an exit clause in the contract does not constitute a right to exit the contract.

 

[Picaro]

They ceded the property rights, not jurisdiction.

Ft Sumter was within the boundaries of South Carolina. End of story.

You best give up, you've presented nothing in support of your argument that South Carolina was within its right to claim Fort Sumter as its own. I on the other hand presented the legislation act in which lays out the fact that Fort Sumter was ceded by South Carolina to the United States of America.

So, when France ceded us the Louisiana Purchase they got th keep the forts and other French govt. property? Your 'proof' is just nonsense; it ceased being 'Federal property' when S. Carolina seceded, and the Feds were going to collect their tariffs from the port. the only way they could do that is by blockade and force, acts of war.

 

[Picaro]

There is no exit clause in the Constitution.

That's because it was a voluntary Union, no exit clause needed, period.

When each State joined the Union, they were aware of this.

Yes, they knew it was a voluntary union. None of them would have signed if it weren't.

It's not impossible to add an exit clause to the Constitution in the form of an Amendment.

So? It wasn't necessary,

If the Confederates had worked on adding such a clause - it would have been eventually added. They could have left the Union without a question.

So, the verdict is: the Confederate States were too stupid to leave the Union.

Some are too stupid to admit they don't have a clue. If leaving was to be illegal, then they would have made it illegal and laid out the consequences for leaving. We already know using the military against a state govt. was emphatically and specifically rejected, so we know Lincoln was violating the law and committing treason to boot.

 

[Picaro]

Nope, never was, which is why it was such a constant and often used threat by most regions. The first states to use the threat were the New England states, upset over Jefferson's winning the Presidency and for decades after, and for reasons far less justifiable than the southern states had. The 1868 'ruling' wasn't explicitly about secession, it was about the appointed military governor of Texas wanting to steal some Texas state bonds that had matured for his own pocket, and of course the completely corrupt Chase SC gladly handed them to him, most likely for a suitable bribe, of course.

How was it illegal?

Don't know what you mean. Secession wasn't illegal, and still isn't.

How wasn't it legal? The COTUS didn't clarify it. There wasn't a previous SC ruling. There were no federal laws..

Exactly, there were no prohibitions against secession. The document is intended to define and limit Federal powers, which is why it isn't mentioned, and in fact using force against a state seceding was specifically rejected at the Convention. Does your town have any laws covering where Martians can poop in the local park? No, because there is no reason for one to begin with. The union was a voluntary union.

There are no prohibitions against Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny either.

Indeed!

 

[bripat9643]

There is no exit clause in the Constitution.

That's because it was a voluntary Union, no exit clause needed, period.

When each State joined the Union, they were aware of this.

Yes, they knew it was a voluntary union. None of them would have signed if it weren't.

It's not impossible to add an exit clause to the Constitution in the form of an Amendment.

So? It wasn't necessary,

If the Confederates had worked on adding such a clause - it would have been eventually added. They could have left the Union without a question.

So, the verdict is: the Confederate States were too stupid to leave the Union.

Some are too stupid to admit they don't have a clue. If leaving was to be illegal, then they would have made it illegal and laid out the consequences for leaving. We already know using the military against a state govt. was emphatically and specifically rejected, so we know Lincoln was violating the law and committing treason to boot.

The Lincoln cult can never admit that secession was legal because otherwise Lincoln is dethroned from his sainthood and the Civil War because an offense against innocent human beings instead of a holy crusade.

 

[Richard-H]

There is no exit clause in the Constitution.

That's because it was a voluntary Union, no exit clause needed, period.

When each State joined the Union, they were aware of this.

Yes, they knew it was a voluntary union. None of them would have signed if it weren't.

It's not impossible to add an exit clause to the Constitution in the form of an Amendment.

So? It wasn't necessary,

If the Confederates had worked on adding such a clause - it would have been eventually added. They could have left the Union without a question.

So, the verdict is: the Confederate States were too stupid to leave the Union.

Some are too stupid to admit they don't have a clue. If leaving was to be illegal, then they would have made it illegal and laid out the consequences for leaving. We already know using the military against a state govt. was emphatically and specifically rejected, so we know Lincoln was violating the law and committing treason to boot.

Joining was voluntary, just like signing any contract is voluntary. But like any contract, there is no exiting the contract unless either the other party voids the contract or there's an exit clause specifying the conditions for exiting.

It strikes me that it wouldn't be very difficult to add an amendment to the Constitution that allowed cessation.

 

[bripat9643]

There is no exit clause in the Constitution.

That's because it was a voluntary Union, no exit clause needed, period.

When each State joined the Union, they were aware of this.

Yes, they knew it was a voluntary union. None of them would have signed if it weren't.

It's not impossible to add an exit clause to the Constitution in the form of an Amendment.

So? It wasn't necessary,

If the Confederates had worked on adding such a clause - it would have been eventually added. They could have left the Union without a question.

So, the verdict is: the Confederate States were too stupid to leave the Union.

Some are too stupid to admit they don't have a clue. If leaving was to be illegal, then they would have made it illegal and laid out the consequences for leaving. We already know using the military against a state govt. was emphatically and specifically rejected, so we know Lincoln was violating the law and committing treason to boot.

Joining was voluntary, just like signing any contract is voluntary. But like any contract, there is no exiting the contract unless either the other party voids the contract or there's an exit clause specifying the conditions for exiting.

It strikes me that it wouldn't be very difficult to add an amendment to the Constitution that allowed cessation.

Horseshit. Unless a contract spells out penalties for not abiding by the terms of the contract, there are none. If my gym membership specifies no penalties for not continuing to pay the fee, there are none. Your belief that you aren't allowed to break a contract without any exit terms is ludicrous. The reason all contracts have exit terms is the fact that the party creating the contract knows he can do nothing about the other party walking away if he doesn't.

You obviously got your understanding of the law in the sand box.

 

[Richard-H]

There is no exit clause in the Constitution.

That's because it was a voluntary Union, no exit clause needed, period.

When each State joined the Union, they were aware of this.

Yes, they knew it was a voluntary union. None of them would have signed if it weren't.

It's not impossible to add an exit clause to the Constitution in the form of an Amendment.

So? It wasn't necessary,

If the Confederates had worked on adding such a clause - it would have been eventually added. They could have left the Union without a question.

So, the verdict is: the Confederate States were too stupid to leave the Union.

Some are too stupid to admit they don't have a clue. If leaving was to be illegal, then they would have made it illegal and laid out the consequences for leaving. We already know using the military against a state govt. was emphatically and specifically rejected, so we know Lincoln was violating the law and committing treason to boot.

The Lincoln cult can never admit that secession was legal because otherwise Lincoln is dethroned from his sainthood and the Civil War because an offense against innocent human beings instead of a holy crusade.

I'm not a fan of Lincoln's in particular. But from a legal point of view he was right.

Besides, the primary reason many of the States wanted to secede was to allow the taxation of interstate commerce by individual states. That was one of the primary reasons that the articles of Confederation failed. It was a dumb idea.

What Lincoln should have done was agree to a federal tax on interstate commerce that would be distributed to the states involved. This way there could be a reasonable limit on the tax.

 

[Richard-H]

There is no exit clause in the Constitution.

That's because it was a voluntary Union, no exit clause needed, period.

When each State joined the Union, they were aware of this.

Yes, they knew it was a voluntary union. None of them would have signed if it weren't.

It's not impossible to add an exit clause to the Constitution in the form of an Amendment.

So? It wasn't necessary,

If the Confederates had worked on adding such a clause - it would have been eventually added. They could have left the Union without a question.

So, the verdict is: the Confederate States were too stupid to leave the Union.

Some are too stupid to admit they don't have a clue. If leaving was to be illegal, then they would have made it illegal and laid out the consequences for leaving. We already know using the military against a state govt. was emphatically and specifically rejected, so we know Lincoln was violating the law and committing treason to boot.

Joining was voluntary, just like signing any contract is voluntary. But like any contract, there is no exiting the contract unless either the other party voids the contract or there's an exit clause specifying the conditions for exiting.

It strikes me that it wouldn't be very difficult to add an amendment to the Constitution that allowed cessation.

Horseshit. Unless a contract spells out penalties for not abiding by the terms of the contract, there are none. If my gym membership specifies no penalties for not continuing to pay the fee, there are none. Your belief that you aren't allowed to break a contract without any exit terms is ludicrous. The reason all contracts have exit terms is the fact that the party creating the contract knows he can do nothing about the other party walking away if he doesn't.

You obviously got your understanding of the law in the sand box.

Well apparently there was something that the Federal government could do if a State decided to exit the contract. Perhaps you lack a certain understanding of the realities of law.

 

[bripat9643]

There is no exit clause in the Constitution.

That's because it was a voluntary Union, no exit clause needed, period.

When each State joined the Union, they were aware of this.

Yes, they knew it was a voluntary union. None of them would have signed if it weren't.

It's not impossible to add an exit clause to the Constitution in the form of an Amendment.

So? It wasn't necessary,

If the Confederates had worked on adding such a clause - it would have been eventually added. They could have left the Union without a question.

So, the verdict is: the Confederate States were too stupid to leave the Union.

Some are too stupid to admit they don't have a clue. If leaving was to be illegal, then they would have made it illegal and laid out the consequences for leaving. We already know using the military against a state govt. was emphatically and specifically rejected, so we know Lincoln was violating the law and committing treason to boot.

The Lincoln cult can never admit that secession was legal because otherwise Lincoln is dethroned from his sainthood and the Civil War because an offense against innocent human beings instead of a holy crusade.

I'm not a fan of Lincoln's in particular. But from a legal point of view he was right.

Besides, the primary reason many of the States wanted to secede was to allow the taxation of interstate commerce by individual states. That was one of the primary reasons that the articles of Confederation failed. It was a dumb idea.

What Lincoln should have done was agree to a federal tax on interstate commerce that would be distributed to the states involved. This way there could be a reasonable limit on the tax.

Wrong and wrong. Lincoln was wrong, and your claim about the motive for secession is wrong. The confederacy agreed to a constitution that did not allow individual states to impose tariffs on each other.

 

[bripat9643]

There is no exit clause in the Constitution.

That's because it was a voluntary Union, no exit clause needed, period.

When each State joined the Union, they were aware of this.

Yes, they knew it was a voluntary union. None of them would have signed if it weren't.

It's not impossible to add an exit clause to the Constitution in the form of an Amendment.

So? It wasn't necessary,

If the Confederates had worked on adding such a clause - it would have been eventually added. They could have left the Union without a question.

So, the verdict is: the Confederate States were too stupid to leave the Union.

Some are too stupid to admit they don't have a clue. If leaving was to be illegal, then they would have made it illegal and laid out the consequences for leaving. We already know using the military against a state govt. was emphatically and specifically rejected, so we know Lincoln was violating the law and committing treason to boot.

Joining was voluntary, just like signing any contract is voluntary. But like any contract, there is no exiting the contract unless either the other party voids the contract or there's an exit clause specifying the conditions for exiting.

It strikes me that it wouldn't be very difficult to add an amendment to the Constitution that allowed cessation.

Horseshit. Unless a contract spells out penalties for not abiding by the terms of the contract, there are none. If my gym membership specifies no penalties for not continuing to pay the fee, there are none. Your belief that you aren't allowed to break a contract without any exit terms is ludicrous. The reason all contracts have exit terms is the fact that the party creating the contract knows he can do nothing about the other party walking away if he doesn't.

You obviously got your understanding of the law in the sand box.

Well apparently there was something that the Federal government could do if a State decided to exit the contract. Perhaps you lack a certain understanding of the realities of law.

Nothing Lincoln did was legal. Your failure to understand that shows that you lack an understanding of the realities of law.

 

[Richard-H]

There is no exit clause in the Constitution.

That's because it was a voluntary Union, no exit clause needed, period.

When each State joined the Union, they were aware of this.

Yes, they knew it was a voluntary union. None of them would have signed if it weren't.

It's not impossible to add an exit clause to the Constitution in the form of an Amendment.

So? It wasn't necessary,

If the Confederates had worked on adding such a clause - it would have been eventually added. They could have left the Union without a question.

So, the verdict is: the Confederate States were too stupid to leave the Union.

Some are too stupid to admit they don't have a clue. If leaving was to be illegal, then they would have made it illegal and laid out the consequences for leaving. We already know using the military against a state govt. was emphatically and specifically rejected, so we know Lincoln was violating the law and committing treason to boot.

The Lincoln cult can never admit that secession was legal because otherwise Lincoln is dethroned from his sainthood and the Civil War because an offense against innocent human beings instead of a holy crusade.

I'm not a fan of Lincoln's in particular. But from a legal point of view he was right.

Besides, the primary reason many of the States wanted to secede was to allow the taxation of interstate commerce by individual states. That was one of the primary reasons that the articles of Confederation failed. It was a dumb idea.

What Lincoln should have done was agree to a federal tax on interstate commerce that would be distributed to the states involved. This way there could be a reasonable limit on the tax.

Are you saying the they Southern States along the Mississippi did not want to impose taxes on shipping on the Mississippi? That was not one of the motivations for their attempt at secession?

Wrong and wrong. Lincoln was wrong, and your claim about the motive for secession is wrong. The confederacy agreed to a constitution that did not allow individual states to impose tariffs on each other.

 

[Picaro]

I'm not a fan of Lincoln's in particular. But from a legal point of view he was right.

We're always told that these days, but no one can tell where it was made 'illegal' to secede; most of the states certainly thought it was perfectly legal in the Founding era and right to the Civil War. Lincoln could have taken it to the Supreme Court if he wasn't sure, but that would have meant nothing since most of the southern Justices resigned and he could appoint more than enough to vote his way.

Besides, the primary reason many of the States wanted to secede was to allow the taxation of interstate commerce by individual states. That was one of the primary reasons that the articles of Confederation failed. It was a dumb idea.

I think it was far more than that; there was the Homestead Acts, the railroad grants, and the Morill Tariff, designed to protect northern manufacturing interests from British competition and a tax that would fall far heavier on the South than they would benefit from, since it was all to be spent on government projects in northern states, as per the old Whig 'American System'.

What Lincoln should have done was agree to a federal tax on interstate commerce that would be distributed to the states involved. This way there could be a reasonable limit on the tax.

Yes, he could have done that, too, but it wasn't the only issue, and the tariffs were outrageously high to begin with.

 

[my2¢]

So, when France ceded us the Louisiana Purchase they got th keep the forts and other French govt. property? Your 'proof' is just nonsense; it ceased being 'Federal property' when S. Carolina seceded, and the Feds were going to collect their tariffs from the port. the only way they could do that is by blockade and force, acts of war.

My case is the U.S. owed Fort Sumter because South Carolina's legislature ceded the territory to the U.S. This is consistent with the United States ownership of all the Louisiana territory (forts and other French property included) when France ceded the land to the U.S.

For your "logic" to be consistent you would be the one needing to make the point that France got to keep the forts and their government property after they ceded the land to the U.S.

 

[Richard-H]

There is no exit clause in the Constitution.

That's because it was a voluntary Union, no exit clause needed, period.

When each State joined the Union, they were aware of this.

Yes, they knew it was a voluntary union. None of them would have signed if it weren't.

It's not impossible to add an exit clause to the Constitution in the form of an Amendment.

So? It wasn't necessary,

If the Confederates had worked on adding such a clause - it would have been eventually added. They could have left the Union without a question.

So, the verdict is: the Confederate States were too stupid to leave the Union.

Some are too stupid to admit they don't have a clue. If leaving was to be illegal, then they would have made it illegal and laid out the consequences for leaving. We already know using the military against a state govt. was emphatically and specifically rejected, so we know Lincoln was violating the law and committing treason to boot.

Joining was voluntary, just like signing any contract is voluntary. But like any contract, there is no exiting the contract unless either the other party voids the contract or there's an exit clause specifying the conditions for exiting.

It strikes me that it wouldn't be very difficult to add an amendment to the Constitution that allowed cessation.

Horseshit. Unless a contract spells out penalties for not abiding by the terms of the contract, there are none. If my gym membership specifies no penalties for not continuing to pay the fee, there are none. Your belief that you aren't allowed to break a contract without any exit terms is ludicrous. The reason all contracts have exit terms is the fact that the party creating the contract knows he can do nothing about the other party walking away if he doesn't.

You obviously got your understanding of the law in the sand box.

First of all, most minor contract do have exit clauses saying that either party can exit without penalty. Second, simple common sense dictates that joining a gym is not a life long binding contract, so unless the contract specifies a penalty, there is none.

However, a State joining a Union to form a country is a whole other magnitude of contract. It could be reasonably understood that States can not just join and leave the union willy-nilly. Every year the Union would be changing which States are and are not members? Every time a federal law was passed that some States didn't like they'd leave? They'd suddenly rejoin when they needed the protection of Federal military forces, but leave whenever a war that didn't threaten them was declared? That's not workable and is void of any reasonable common sense.

Do you ever think things thru?