We are the 99%

[The T]

I probably will get flamed for this, but I am begging everyone of this board to at least consider the merits of OWS (Occupy Wall Street). What we have seen for quite some time now is the purposeful division of our society along very few issues. (Gun control, gay marriage, abortion, etc.) At the same time, we have seen the Treasury gutted, our Civil Liberties curtailed, and the normalization of a permanent state of war.

It doesn't matter which vetted politician is in charge, (Obama, Bush, Clinton) we get tossed to the side all the same. Both Bush and Obama bailed out the banks. Obama continues to throw the Bill of Rights out the window.

I am sure everyone knows that the laundry list of problems looks endless, but we must recognize that a many faced monster turns us against each other while reaching into our pocketbooks. These few that attempt to steer hatred of our fellow citizens into our lives have no political agenda, they are only concerned about their own gain, and they win every time a liberal calls a conservative a fascist or a tea bagger, or a conservative calls a liberal a hippie or a commie. These people that we are dealing with at the top are political chameleons who have no interest in the survival of the nation, only the endurance of their egos and pride.

Long live the Republic.

Occupy Wall Street | NYC Protest for American Revolution

You are a Communist fruitloop.

 

[Si modo]

Bill Ayers:::

Too bad we didn't have an anonymous "shoot to kill" panel authorized back then. A $10Mill missile strike could have gotten 2 "enemies of the state" for the price of 1....

Glad we're making progress.....

Exactly. Send in the drones. Hey, Ayers is still a citizen, and he actually has admitted to murder.

He's an all-around piece of shit and terrorist. He hates the USA.

Don't go getting all horny about this.. We gotta wait til he goes to Yemen or Libya or someplace relatively lawless before we can (in the words of Ravi) "put a missile up his ass". Or at least to the Nevada desert.

Or do we....????????

Seems as if the conditions for being listed on the list, and those conditions made up in others' heads, are met.

 

[Dragon]

If stating facts is an obsession, then yes, I am obsessed.

Stating facts as such is not a sign of obsession. Stating the SAME facts (or alleged facts) over and over ad nauseam, however, is.

You are not obsessed with "the facts." You are obsessed with William Ayers. And I really don't understand why.

 

[California Girl]

And, Bill Ayers, who is a terrorist pig and a piece of shit, is a full supporter.

Ayers is also on record as supporting free speech, public education, and the Bill of Rights generally. Are you going to turn against all these things, too, just because he's for them?

....

Nope.

But, Bill Ayers is a terrorist pig and a piece of shit. His wife is also a terrorist pig and a piece of shit. He was, and is, an enemy of the USA and our Constitution.

He is not worthy of my hate, but Bill Ayers is a terrorist pig and a piece of shit. He is an admitted murderer.

.... To what lengths of folly will it lead you? ....

If folly is calling terrorist pigs and pieces of shit and admitted murderers exactly that, then I hope it takes me full length.

.... If Ayers came out in favor of breathing, would you hold your breath?

Nope. But, Bill Ayers is a terrorist pig and a piece of shit, as is his wife. He is an admitted murderer. He was, and is, an enemy of the USA and our Constitution.

Rational Americans agree with you. Ayers is a terrorist pig and should, at least, be in prison for his actions.

 

[bripat9643]

It'll be the moderates and grown-ups of both ideologies that work things out going forward, into the future.

There's nothing good about moderate socialism. There's nothing "grownup" about making concessions to evil. What this country needs is to defeat socialism, not bargain with it.

 

[Si modo]

If stating facts is an obsession, then yes, I am obsessed.

Stating facts as such is not a sign of obsession. Stating the SAME facts (or alleged facts) over and over ad nauseam, however, is.

You are not obsessed with "the facts." You are obsessed with William Ayers. And I really don't understand why.

Am am obsessed with facts; without them, there is no possibility of making an informed decision.

If it is necessary that I repeat those facts, then so be it. I have been at USMB for some time, now, and I know that a good many posters do not take the time to read entire threads, so repeating is necessary. I wish it weren't, but that is the nature of this community.

Bill Ayers is a terrorist pig and a piece of shit; so is his wife. He was, and is, an enemy of the USA and of our Constitution. He is an admitted murderer.

Here is Bill in a photo in 2008 in a Chicago magazine feature on him, a photo in which HE was the one who came up with the idea for the shot.

He hates the USA.

 

[bripat9643]

Just as soon as we give our kids fair taxes and a budget balanced by law.

Just as soon as you loot the wealthy, don't you mean?

 

[flacaltenn]

So you skipped all the meaty stuff about how world wide redistribution of economic power and wealth is a proximate cause to all this.

Well, I wanted to address the core subject which involved tactics of OWS. If you want to get into an economics discussion, I disagree with you. There is no "worldwide redistribution of economic power and wealth" as that phrase is normally used, no transfer of wealth from the rich nations to the poor ones. Rather, there is a transfer of wealth from most of the people living in rich nations, mostly to the very richest people living in such nations. It could be argued successfully that all of the increased wealth in third-world countries arises from wealth produced in those countries, and is not a transfer.

Very Funny.. Hilarious in fact. The part about "increased wealth in third-world countries arises from wealth produced IN THOSE COUNTRIES and is not a transfer".. You get the irony of that statement considering the 1% implied topic of this thread? How come that works that way for GLOBAL redistribution and not DOMESTIC redistribution? NEVER would YOU consider that the 1% you're endlessly bitchin about created that wealth WITHOUT robbing it from the 99%.. Would ya?

OF COURSE there is a transfer of wealth across nations right now.. It's f'in undeniable. Ever hear of "The World is Flat?"? Ever seen a protest about US JOBS going offshore? Ever hear of "competing with slave wage labor" in Thailand?

And you DON'T do any of that useful stuff because you mistakenly believe that corporations are ALL to blame for Govt/Corp collusion

That's a terribly simplistic statement and not true at all. The problem is excessive influence of corporations on the government, so that a distinction drawn between them becomes almost meaningless. It's not a question of targeting business or targeting the government, rather, it's a matter of targeting the collusion between them. Government should be regulating business, not serving its narrow interests. It isn't doing that because of the influence of campaign financing and lobbyists.

There is a primary cause. And that is the unchecked ability to hand out favors and power. We allow politicians to deal the drugs. We LET GOVT get further involved in picking market winners/losers. Ever hear of "too big to fail"? Who PAID for that concept?

The Power and Money would STILL go out without political contributions. We KNOW THAT FOR A FACT. Because that's how business got conducted even in Communist countries with a ONE party monopoly.

You can't make simple comparisons between countries with such radically different systems, but I will say that the failure of socialism in the Soviet Union came about because they tried to have socialism without democracy, just as the failure of democracy in the U.S. has come about because we've tried to have democracy without socialism. Democracy, an egalitarian political philosophy, is political socialism. Socialism, an egalitarian economic philosophy, is economic democracy. They have to work together.

In the Soviet Union, the system was supposed to make a worker's paradise, with a more or less equal standard of living and prosperity for all. But because they had no democracy, political power concentrated in the hands of a privileged elite (the Communist Party), and this oligarchy served its own needs at the expense of the people. So you got Communist bigwigs living luxurious lifestyles and pouring money into a huge military force to aggrandize their power, while the people's living standards stagnated and declined. Lack of democracy corrupted the socialist ideals the country was founded on.

In the U.S., we have a mirror-image problem. We are supposed to be a democracy "with liberty and justice for all," but because we allow/encourage too much wealth to concentrate in too few hands, and wealth translates into political power, the government serves at the beck and call of the corporate interests rather than answering to the will of the people. Lack of socialism (note that I'm defining socialism by ends rather than means; I don't mean lack of government ownership of the means of production but rather lack of economic equality, regardless of what method is used to bring that about) has undermined our democracy, just as lack of democracy undermined Soviet socialism. I really don't think you can have either one of those successfully without the other.

What we know is that the more unchecked power is concentrated in govt hands -- the larger the patronage problem. This is REGARDLESS of political organization. When it becomes Mussolini's Italy -- it's called corporate fascism. Where the companies are private but DIRECTED by political establishment. SOCIALIZATION of risk (AIG, Solyndra, Fanny/Freddy) but PRIVATIZATION of profit. Sound familiar. You got cause/effect exactly backwards.

Does "work for the people" imply MORE POWER to be doled out?

Not really, just a change of direction. The government MUST set policies in regard to enforcement of labor law, trade agreements, tax policy, and other things affecting the economy, the price of labor, and the distribution of wealth. It doesn't have to do these things any MORE than it does now in order to change our circumstances. It just needs to do them differently.
Maybe.. But it STARTS with turning off the spigots of cash that go out as subsidies, loans, and handouts. NOT -- with cannibalizing the carcass of our stagnant economy.

You'll get there.. All you have to do is start looking for the REAL problems that need to get addressed instead of just encouraging "noise".

 

[Full-Auto]

If stating facts is an obsession, then yes, I am obsessed.

Stating facts as such is not a sign of obsession. Stating the SAME facts (or alleged facts) over and over ad nauseam, however, is.

You are not obsessed with "the facts." You are obsessed with William Ayers. And I really don't understand why.

Am am obsessed with facts; without them, there is no possibility of making an informed decision.

If it is necessary that I repeat those facts, then so be it. I have been at USMB for some time, now, and I know that a good many posters do not take the time to read entire threads, so repeating is necessary. I wish it weren't, but that is the nature of this community.

Bill Ayers is a terrorist pig and a piece of shit; so is his wife. He was, and is, an enemy of the USA and of our Constitution. He is an admitted murderer.

Here is Bill in a photo in 2008 in a Chicago magazine feature on him, a photo in which HE was the one who came up with the idea for the shot.

He hates the USA.

Why isnt that fuck in prison or pushing daisies?

 

[Si modo]

Stating facts as such is not a sign of obsession. Stating the SAME facts (or alleged facts) over and over ad nauseam, however, is.

You are not obsessed with "the facts." You are obsessed with William Ayers. And I really don't understand why.

Am am obsessed with facts; without them, there is no possibility of making an informed decision.

If it is necessary that I repeat those facts, then so be it. I have been at USMB for some time, now, and I know that a good many posters do not take the time to read entire threads, so repeating is necessary. I wish it weren't, but that is the nature of this community.

Bill Ayers is a terrorist pig and a piece of shit; so is his wife. He was, and is, an enemy of the USA and of our Constitution. He is an admitted murderer.

Here is Bill in a photo in 2008 in a Chicago magazine feature on him, a photo in which HE was the one who came up with the idea for the shot.

He hates the USA.

Why isnt that fuck in prison or pushing daisies?

A technicality.

"Guilty as sin [of felony murder]; free as a bird. It's a great country." ~ Bill Ayers as quoted when asked about his murder trial.

 

[Dragon]

Very Funny.. Hilarious in fact. The part about "increased wealth in third-world countries arises from wealth produced IN THOSE COUNTRIES and is not a transfer".. You get the irony of that statement considering the 1% implied topic of this thread? How come that works that way for GLOBAL redistribution and not DOMESTIC redistribution?

OF COURSE there is a transfer of wealth across nations right now.. It's f'in undeniable. Ever hear of "The World is Flat?"? Ever seen a protest about US JOBS going offshore? Ever hear of "competing with slave wage labor" in Thailand?

I just want to point out that you've taken a lot of bandwidth here to say very little. About the only sentence you've got here with cognitive content is the last sentence. So I'll address the subject of outsourcing, whose effect is not well understood on either the left or the right.

Outsourcing is part of the reason why we have lost a lot of manufacturing jobs, but not the whole reason (automation is at least as important). However, loss of manufacturing jobs is not the reason unemployment is so high, nor the reason why real wages have stagnated over the last thirty years.

Before the Great Recession and the start of the Second Depression (as it will be called in the future), jobs lost to outsourcing were quickly replaced by expanded employment in the service industries. Now, most of these service jobs paid less, on the average, than the manufacturing jobs that were lost. But is that because of some inherent quality of factory work that requires it to be well-paid, while service work is not? No. It's because the factory jobs were mostly union jobs while the service jobs that have replaced them haven't been. And that, in turn, is due to a shift in government policy on enforcement of labor law that has made it easier for employers to break attempts to form unions. Factory work used to pay shit, too. And there's no inherent reason why service work can't pay well.

There is a primary cause. And that is the unchecked ability to hand out favors and power. We allow politicians to deal the drugs. We LET GOVT get further involved in picking market winners/losers. Ever hear of "too big to fail"? Who PAID for that concept?

The problem with this argument is that these problems have manifested only since the 1980s, growing worse ever since then. But the government was just as involved in the economy in the 1940s, 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s as it is today.

It's not how much, it's on whose behalf.

What we know is that the more unchecked power is concentrated in govt hands -- the larger the patronage problem.

As I said, the historical evidence of our own economic golden age argues against this. The problem is excessive corporate influence on the government.

A fairly standard argument I hear from libertarians a lot is that if we got rid of the government's ability to hand out goodies, corporations would have no incentive to buy the government. That's untrue, though: they would have the incentive of bringing the goodies back. In fact, that's how the goodies first started to be handed out.

The reality is that a modern economy has to be regulated by the government; it can't function otherwise. So the question, once again, isn't whether or how much, it's on who's behalf.

 

[Dragon]

If it is necessary that I repeat those facts, then so be it.

It isn't necessary, except perhaps because of some internal obsession in you. You are obsessed with William Ayers. Why?

You don't need to answer that question publicly, but I suggest you ask it of yourself. Ayers' crimes are by no means the worst ever to be committed for political causes, nor the most recent. His criminal case was dismissed due to malfeasance on the part of the prosecution -- he's hardly the first person who has benefited from that. He can't be tried again for the same crimes, and he has not committed crimes since then as far as I know.

There is just no reason to obsess over this guy. I don't even get the sense that you are using him opportunistically to score political points, the way a lot of people on the right did in 2008 because of Obama's minor connection to him. I get the feeling that this is heartfelt on your part, and it's weird.

 

[Si modo]

If it is necessary that I repeat those facts, then so be it.

It isn't necessary, except perhaps because of some internal obsession in you. You are obsessed with William Ayers. Why?

....

I am obsessed with facts and I have answered why. You specifically deleted that answer from what you quoted.

... You don't need to answer that question publicly, but I suggest you ask it of yourself.

....

I already did answer that question. You specifically deleted it from your quote of my words.

.... Ayers' crimes are by no means the worst ever to be committed for political causes, nor the most recent. His criminal case was dismissed due to malfeasance on the part of the prosecution -- he's hardly the first person who has benefited from that. He can't be tried again for the same crimes, and he has not committed crimes since then as far as I know.

....

That still does not change the fact that he is a terrorist pig and a piece of shit.

.... There is just no reason to obsess over this guy.

....

Your assumption that I obsess over the man and not facts about the man, is wrong, as I have said repeatedly, but you still attempt to imply.

Hmmmm.

..... I don't even get the sense that you are using him opportunistically to score political points, the way a lot of people on the right did in 2008 because of Obama's minor connection to him. I get the feeling that this is heartfelt on your part, and it's weird.

If repeating facts and ensuring that they are known to persons so that there can be informed decisions is weird, then I am proud to be so.

Bill Ayers hates the USA.

 

[Dragon]

I am obsessed with facts and I have answered why.

You are obsessed with THESE facts. You are NOT obsessed with facts in general. And an obsession, not with facts in general but with facts about William Ayers in particular, which is what you display, is an obsession with William Ayers. Which is very weird, and quite frankly I think you should consider getting help for this.

 

[Si modo]

I am obsessed with facts and I have answered why.

You are obsessed with THESE facts. You are NOT obsessed with facts in general. And an obsession, not with facts in general but with facts about William Ayers in particular, which is what you display, is an obsession with William Ayers. Which is very weird, and quite frankly I think you should consider getting help for this.

Um, let's see. You have been on this board for a few weeks and you think you know me?

You don't.

This is not about me.

This is about folks knowing that a terrorist pig and a piece of shit, who is an admitted murderer, supports the OWS. That is Bill Ayers.

Bill Ayers hates the USA.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Just as soon as we give our kids fair taxes and a budget balanced by law.

Just as soon as you loot the wealthy, don't you mean?

No.

Have I ever said I want to 'loot' anyone? If anything, I advocate for fair taxes in part because the current reliance solely on a progressive income tax is unfair to the wealthy, and I don't blame them for buying as many deductions and as much favoritism as they can afford.

You're a trouble maker, plain and simple. Either that or you're one of those guys who posts responses to posts you haven't read and know nothing about.

 

[Dragon]

Um, let's see. You have been on this board for a few weeks and you think you know me?

You are the same Si modo who is, or at least was, a regular poster at U.S. Politics On Line. Yes?

I am the same poster who was Dragontalk on that forum and TSGracchus before that. (I finally abandoned that forum because I got sick of Matt Lawson's pettiness.) I have known you for a lot longer than a few weeks.

This is not about me.

I think it is, and that you are deceiving yourself about that. You are obsessed with William Ayers, beyond all reason and sense, unless of course there's some private reason that I don't know about and that's none of my business. None of the things you keep saying about him, which are statements of your opinion about things that are public knowledge and generally known, justify your obsession.

Everyone knows that Ayers was a member of the Weatherman group in the late 1960s and early 1970s, that as part of that group he was involved in planting bombs that destroyed property and risked people's lives, and that one of those bombs was involved in an accident that killed several of the Weathermen themselves. This is not new. It is not something you or anyone else needs to point out to us. Nor do you need to point out to us that he was never convicted of any crimes involved in this bombing activity, of which he was certainly guilty, because of malfeasance on the part of the prosecution. Other Weathermen, tried separately, were convicted and sent to prison. Ayers and his wife Bernadine Dohrn were acquitted on a technicality.

All this is true, but so fucking what? It's not in any way relevant to anything under discussion, but all anyone has to do is mention the man's name and you salivate and blow spittle like Pavlov's dog.

This is not rational. It's just plain weird.

 

[AVG-JOE]

It'll be the moderates and grown-ups of both ideologies that work things out going forward, into the future.

There's nothing good about moderate socialism. There's nothing "grownup" about making concessions to evil. What this country needs is to defeat socialism, not bargain with it.

That sounds so fascist. "Yer either with me or yer a terrorist!" "Heh heh heh."

Troublemaker.

 

[California Girl]

It'll be the moderates and grown-ups of both ideologies that work things out going forward, into the future.

There's nothing good about moderate socialism. There's nothing "grownup" about making concessions to evil. What this country needs is to defeat socialism, not bargain with it.

That sounds so fascist. "Yer either with me or yer a terrorist!" "Heh heh heh."

Troublemaker.

Actually, it just sounds like someone who prefers a Constitutional Republic. The two do not fit together. We are either a free nation or a nanny state. Not hard. Choose. If the answer is a nanny state, pack up and move... cuz this country isn't suitable.

 

[Si modo]

Um, let's see. You have been on this board for a few weeks and you think you know me?

You are the same Si modo who is, or at least was, a regular poster at U.S. Politics On Line. Yes?

I am the same poster who was Dragontalk on that forum and TSGracchus before that. (I finally abandoned that forum because I got sick of Matt Lawson's pettiness.) I have known you for a lot longer than a few weeks.

This is not about me.

I think it is, and that you are deceiving yourself about that. You are obsessed with William Ayers, beyond all reason and sense, unless of course there's some private reason that I don't know about and that's none of my business. None of the things you keep saying about him, which are statements of your opinion about things that are public knowledge and generally known, justify your obsession.

Everyone knows that Ayers was a member of the Weatherman group in the late 1960s and early 1970s, that as part of that group he was involved in planting bombs that destroyed property and risked people's lives, and that one of those bombs was involved in an accident that killed several of the Weathermen themselves. This is not new. It is not something you or anyone else needs to point out to us. Nor do you need to point out to us that he was never convicted of any crimes involved in this bombing activity, of which he was certainly guilty, because of malfeasance on the part of the prosecution. Other Weathermen, tried separately, were convicted and sent to prison. Ayers and his wife Bernadine Dohrn were acquitted on a technicality.

All this is true, but so fucking what? It's not in any way relevant to anything under discussion, but all anyone has to do is mention the man's name and you salivate and blow spittle like Pavlov's dog.

This is not rational. It's just plain weird.

No way!!!

TS!! I really admire you and rarely agree with you.

But, Bill Ayers is a terrorist pig and a piece of shit.

It's a fact.

And, he hates the USA.

ETA: I would think most who leave there do because they have caught onto the fact that OSB has issues with being truthful, just my experience.