West Bank: IDF checking claims that settlers used live ammo

[MHunterB]

i think your first sentence contradicts your second.

people know and understand the difference but...

if you are chosen by an omnipotent, all powerful, only god to be his representative on earth and to be the only ones capable of passing his sacred and omnipotent word to the world and if you claim that this omnipotent god is holding you to higher standards than the rest of us and if you couple all that with talmudic teachings, which i don't see how you can avoid, than i think there is a definite implication of "better".

i really don't think gentiles jumped on this without any provocation at all. i have heard it uttered by ewish people in casual conversation having nothing at all to do with the torah.

maybe it is time for you people to understand our reaction to not being god's chosen.

<<<"if you are chosen by an omnipotent, all powerful, only god to be his representative on earth and to be the only ones capable of passing his sacred and omnipotent word to the world and if you claim that this omnipotent god is holding you to higher standards than the rest of us and if you couple all that with talmudic teachings, which i don't see how you can avoid, than i think there is a definite implication of "better".>>>

See, but that's just it. It's totally the other way around.

If we were chosen to recieve the Torah from HaShem, he expect us to have higher standarts as you say...

Which means that while being a Gentile is an "easy task" (so to speak), being a Jew means you've put to alot of tests, and much more temped to fail.

While for a gentile the number of commandments is 7, the number of commandments for a Jew is 613.

If God's to hold us for higher standard, one can ask why we are being put through so much? if we were "better" WE would have been given the "easy pass" while the Gentile would have been the one to suffer the weight of so much commandments.

The commandments, while being blessed, are also a wight and a test we must follow to "complete" ourselves, because the Jew will forever look for that missing piece, which the Gentile doesn't required to look for.

It's all a matter of prespective.

The only thing that Jews were REALLY CHOSEN for do DO, is Tikkun Olam. Every person can do Tikkun Olam, but it's the duty of the Jew to do it, or TRY doing it, better than any other person. Because we have sinned, we are required to do Tikkunim more than the Gentiles.

the only thing the above says to me is "god thinks we're better".

how can it mean anything else. god thinks you are up to the challange and the rest of us aren't.

NO: it means we signed a contract to do Tikkun Olam: it has nothing to do with 'competence' and everything to do with 'obligation'. There's no reason YHVH would do other than rejoice at efforts made by any individual....in fact, there's an argument that such acts by 'non-obligated' individuals may be MORE highly regarded as they are completely voluntary.

I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't see that.

 

[Lipush]

i think your first sentence contradicts your second.

people know and understand the difference but...

if you are chosen by an omnipotent, all powerful, only god to be his representative on earth and to be the only ones capable of passing his sacred and omnipotent word to the world and if you claim that this omnipotent god is holding you to higher standards than the rest of us and if you couple all that with talmudic teachings, which i don't see how you can avoid, than i think there is a definite implication of "better".

i really don't think gentiles jumped on this without any provocation at all. i have heard it uttered by ewish people in casual conversation having nothing at all to do with the torah.

maybe it is time for you people to understand our reaction to not being god's chosen.

<<<"if you are chosen by an omnipotent, all powerful, only god to be his representative on earth and to be the only ones capable of passing his sacred and omnipotent word to the world and if you claim that this omnipotent god is holding you to higher standards than the rest of us and if you couple all that with talmudic teachings, which i don't see how you can avoid, than i think there is a definite implication of "better".>>>

See, but that's just it. It's totally the other way around.

If we were chosen to recieve the Torah from HaShem, he expect us to have higher standarts as you say...

Which means that while being a Gentile is an "easy task" (so to speak), being a Jew means you've put to alot of tests, and much more temped to fail.

While for a gentile the number of commandments is 7, the number of commandments for a Jew is 613.

If God's to hold us for higher standard, one can ask why we are being put through so much? if we were "better" WE would have been given the "easy pass" while the Gentile would have been the one to suffer the weight of so much commandments.

The commandments, while being blessed, are also a wight and a test we must follow to "complete" ourselves, because the Jew will forever look for that missing piece, which the Gentile doesn't required to look for.

It's all a matter of prespective.

The only thing that Jews were REALLY CHOSEN for do DO, is Tikkun Olam. Every person can do Tikkun Olam, but it's the duty of the Jew to do it, or TRY doing it, better than any other person. Because we have sinned, we are required to do Tikkunim more than the Gentiles.

the only thing the above says to me is "god thinks we're better".

how can it mean anything else. god thinks you are up to the challange and the rest of us aren't.

It seemes to me that YOU think WE think GOD things "We're better".

Why Am I even trying to explane Judaism's views if youre so stobburn and refuse to listen.

Just tell me you're not even interested in discussing this, and that'll be alright.

WHY do I even BOTHER?

 

[MHunterB]

"no race, ethnicity, culture, religion, is either better or chosen based upon what they think their god said. "

If you are understanding that 'chosen' correctly, Seal - you'd realize that Judaism has no argument with that - except possibly with the idea that YHVH is 'our' GOD only.... Last I checked, you and BIK and I were all on the same page with YHVH/ALLAH/God being the same ONE?

 

[sealadaigh]

The only ones using the "chosen ideology" crap are haters and ignorant.

Jews were CHOSEN to recieve the Torah from HaShem. Not "chosen" as in "BETTER" than anyone.

It's about time you people learned the difference. Your ignorance is tiring, honestly!

i think your first sentence contradicts your second.

people know and understand the difference but...

if you are chosen by an omnipotent, all powerful, only god to be his representative on earth and to be the only ones capable of passing his sacred and omnipotent word to the world and if you claim that this omnipotent god is holding you to higher standards than the rest of us and if you couple all that with talmudic teachings, which i don't see how you can avoid, than i think there is a definite implication of "better".

i really don't think gentiles jumped on this without any provocation at all. i have heard it uttered by ewish people in casual conversation having nothing at all to do with the torah.

maybe it is time for you people to understand our reaction to not being god's chosen.

Except that the stuff in bold is no part of Jewish teachings. NONE. We NEVER claim to be 'the ONLY' ones capable, or that Torah is the ONLY 'sacred and omnipotent word'. In fact, it's debatable whether Judaism considers YHVH to be functionally 'omnipotent' - since that would preclude free will.

Maybe it's time for all the ones who address someone else as 'you people' to understand that such mode of address is irretrievably rude and demeaning. And that such usage trumpets "I am simply not worth taking seriously" to anyone reading.

Must I remind you WHO is the only other poster here to make a habit of using that particular insulting mode of address?

my "you people" was in response to the above highlighted "you people"...and i do not use it habitually at all. i use it occasionally and rarely.

the rest of your post is semantics.

 

[Lipush]

YOU PEOPLE that I say doesn't adress race or nation, but "you people" wanna say the weirdos who state baseless statements without checking if they go hand in hand with reality.

But, I take that to mind, and not repeat that.

Problem is, when I call the kid at its name, you also don't like it. people don't like to see the word "Antisemitism" on this board. so you tell me seal, which is the PC way of adressing people who think they know Judaism enough to say silly things, without really knowing us at all?

 

[MHunterB]

Lipush: You keep trying because it's important to us Jews. And because giving accurate and truthful information is part of that Tikkun Olam we've been tasked with : )) Of course, we can give but others are free to reject what we would share : ((

 

[Lipush]

O I don't really have problem sharing. I'm all for it, but if I'm taking my time explaining on someone who doesn't even want to hear, than it's annoying, because seriously, why bother? Once Seal wishes to share notes in order to learn and not whiiine about nonsense, I will take my time explaining everything he wishes to know and answer honestly on each question I can answer. but seriously I don't think he reached that point yet

 

[BecauseIKnow]

What do you mean you signed a contract? You mean you were supposed to keep the covenant.

 

[MHunterB]

Seal: I had not seen that in Lipush's post, so yes I've made a mistake. It happens.

I'm not going to go and blast Lipush ONLY because I understand that her English is somewhat limited.

It is indeed frustrating to be constantly told that one believes something which is ANTITHETICAL to one's actual beliefs and 'doctrine' (Judaism really doesn't have much of that at all). I have seen it where ignorant Protestants insist on informing Catholics that they are idolaters and worship Mary: I understand that is ridiculous and false, but it's very difficult to get them to give up their 'anti-papist' stereotypes.........

Whenever a person claims they've heard 'chosen' stuff from the Jews they've encountered - I always wonder about that. Because I've never heard that shit in over 50 years of listening very carefully, and I'm certain I've been around far more Jews than any of those other individuals. NOT just Jews from the big cities of the US east coast, but plenty of other locations around the globe - NZ and OZ, and various places in Europe. It's just NOT something we tend to say - because it really is NOT part of our 'core beliefs' or our doctrine.

In addition, I've been informed by many people who are not Jewish that they've never heard that stuff from their Jewish associates.

In fact, the absolute ONLY people I've ever heard such claims from - that Jews 'talk about being chosen' - have been people who never had been to a Jewish service or joined a Jewish family for Sabbath, and people who ascribe to many of the negative and vile stereotypes about Jews.

I'm certain there are exceptions to any 'trend' - but so far I've not personally found one to either of the trends I noted above.

 

[MHunterB]

LIPUSH: Please go back and read my post to Seal, and understand that 'you people' is just insulting whenever and however it's used, no matter who is doing it.

I do not think you meant it just that way. It's a bit complicated because it's idiomatic and not 'textbook' English.

I don't think it'd be right to assume you understood it as always being insulting - but for your own sake, I wanted to advise you to avoid using 'you people' because English speakers will be almost guaranteed to take offense at it.

 

[BecauseIKnow]

I think Lipush was only looking from her perspective. So when I read it I also understood from it that only Jews were allowed that Tikkun thing where they have to have higher standards. And not to other religious folks as if God doesn't reach out to everyone. That being said, it's a much more complicated discussion than this and I don't think jews accept the scriptures after certain prophets. Such as the ones Jesus received and the what Muhammad received. So that's what I think it is Seal. And that's why God addresses these things in all new revelations. It's an interesting discussion no doubt.

 

[MHunterB]

What do you mean you signed a contract? You mean you were supposed to keep the covenant.

Yes, that's exactly what I meant BIK. I used the words like 'contract' and 'obligation' to try and express that it's DEMANDED of us, whereas - in the Jewish understanding - it's OPTIONAL for anyone else.

 

[BecauseIKnow]

She's fine Marg, her English is good but in Hebrew and Arabic we are very direct no matter what language. And it's more direct in our own languages. So when we speak directly people can misunderstand things. Like if I take a Quran verse in Arabic and you translated to English it won't always come out right because the English language isn't direct like Arabic is.

 

[Lipush]

LIPUSH: Please go back and read my post to Seal, and understand that 'you people' is just insulting whenever and however it's used, no matter who is doing it.

I do not think you meant it just that way. It's a bit complicated because it's idiomatic and not 'textbook' English.

I don't think it'd be right to assume you understood it as always being insulting - but for your own sake, I wanted to advise you to avoid using 'you people' because English speakers will be almost guaranteed to take offense at it.

I said I took that to mind and try to use better "argument" next time.

Thank you, though, for pointing that out to me.

 

[MHunterB]

I think Lipush was only looking from her perspective. So when I read it I also understood from it that only Jews were allowed that Tikkun thing where they have to have higher standards. And not to other religious folks as if God doesn't reach out to everyone. That being said, it's a much more complicated discussion than this and I don't think jews accept the scriptures after certain prophets. Such as the ones Jesus received and the what Muhammad received. So that's what I think it is Seal. And that's why God addresses these things in all new revelations. It's an interesting discussion no doubt.

BIK, you misunderstood - but that's no 'fault' either of yours or Lipush's : )) You see, the story of Adam and Eve is where we first find out about Tikkun Olam. So ALL of humanity has the privilege of being given an opportunity to share in YHVH' Work of Creation (which is what 'Tikkun Olam' is, 'healing Creation', or 'continuing' ......). Because Creation is an ongoing process, not a single act.

So ALL of humanity is invited by YHVH to participate: it's not reserved for the Jewish people alone. We just are the first ones who we know about, to understand that - perhaps that's why YHVH decided to make it our duty?

But none of that excludes any other person, or suggests to Judaism that such efforts by a nonJew are any less pleasing to YHVH......

 

[Lipush]

I think Lipush was only looking from her perspective. So when I read it I also understood from it that only Jews were allowed that Tikkun thing where they have to have higher standards. And not to other religious folks as if God doesn't reach out to everyone. That being said, it's a much more complicated discussion than this and I don't think jews accept the scriptures after certain prophets. Such as the ones Jesus received and the what Muhammad received. So that's what I think it is Seal. And that's why God addresses these things in all new revelations. It's an interesting discussion no doubt.

Tikkun Olam means "world repair". it means do thing "beyond", you take your good deeds, good thoughts, good feelings, and try to reach beyond so you can overcome the wrongs happenings in the world.

Since the Jews have sinned, it is our obligation to do more "repairing" than others. That what it means. In an ideal world, there will be no need for "world repair", because then it would mean that there is no poverty or crime or suffering. Then the "Tikkun Olam" will turn into "Shimur Olam", from world repair to "world keeping".

It is the duty of the Jews to try and be the best world repairs, for the existence of our nation. but not under any circumstances we're to be the ONLY ones doing it! God forbid, if we were the only ones crimes and povery and violence will RULE! EACH PERSON should try and make his Tikkun Olam each place he can find he can help.

Helping an old man cross the road, feeding a poor child, give a hand to the blind, all those small things are a great Tikkun Olam which all can do and feel good with themselves doing, and you don't need to much for it. the way of nature should be that each person old enough and capable enough for "reparing" will be more than happy to do it.

 

[BecauseIKnow]

As I said I already knew what it was, and that's why I referred you to Sunnah of our Prophet and we also call these things Zakaat, etc.. We have many of things such as these, like caring for your cat. Our Prophet had many cats as pets and he always wanted good treatment towards animals. We also have things such as eat with right hand, enter bathroom with right foot and exit left foot. Grow a beard is Sunnah as well. And I am growing one for God only.

 

[BecauseIKnow]

I think Lipush was only looking from her perspective. So when I read it I also understood from it that only Jews were allowed that Tikkun thing where they have to have higher standards. And not to other religious folks as if God doesn't reach out to everyone. That being said, it's a much more complicated discussion than this and I don't think jews accept the scriptures after certain prophets. Such as the ones Jesus received and the what Muhammad received. So that's what I think it is Seal. And that's why God addresses these things in all new revelations. It's an interesting discussion no doubt.

BIK, you misunderstood - but that's no 'fault' either of yours or Lipush's : )) You see, the story of Adam and Eve is where we first find out about Tikkun Olam. So ALL of humanity has the privilege of being given an opportunity to share in YHVH' Work of Creation (which is what 'Tikkun Olam' is, 'healing Creation', or 'continuing' ......). Because Creation is an ongoing process, not a single act.

So ALL of humanity is invited by YHVH to participate: it's not reserved for the Jewish people alone. We just are the first ones who we know about, to understand that - perhaps that's why YHVH decided to make it our duty?

But none of that excludes any other person, or suggests to Judaism that such efforts by a nonJew are any less pleasing to YHVH......

It kind of sounds like Christianity in a way, I don't believe God is inviting us to participate. He chooses to change things and he teaches us slowly. When God told Muhammad to tell his people that alcohol is prohibited he slowly told us in verses to not drink. Then he said to not sell. Then something else. Then ban alcohol. I like how Islam is very direct.

 

[MHunterB]

I think Lipush was only looking from her perspective. So when I read it I also understood from it that only Jews were allowed that Tikkun thing where they have to have higher standards. And not to other religious folks as if God doesn't reach out to everyone. That being said, it's a much more complicated discussion than this and I don't think jews accept the scriptures after certain prophets. Such as the ones Jesus received and the what Muhammad received. So that's what I think it is Seal. And that's why God addresses these things in all new revelations. It's an interesting discussion no doubt.

BIK, you misunderstood - but that's no 'fault' either of yours or Lipush's : )) You see, the story of Adam and Eve is where we first find out about Tikkun Olam. So ALL of humanity has the privilege of being given an opportunity to share in YHVH' Work of Creation (which is what 'Tikkun Olam' is, 'healing Creation', or 'continuing' ......). Because Creation is an ongoing process, not a single act.

So ALL of humanity is invited by YHVH to participate: it's not reserved for the Jewish people alone. We just are the first ones who we know about, to understand that - perhaps that's why YHVH decided to make it our duty?

But none of that excludes any other person, or suggests to Judaism that such efforts by a nonJew are any less pleasing to YHVH......

It kind of sounds like Christianity in a way, I don't believe God is inviting us to participate. He chooses to change things and he teaches us slowly. When God told Muhammad to tell his people that alcohol is prohibited he slowly told us in verses to not drink. Then he said to not sell. Then something else. Then ban alcohol. I like how Islam is very direct.

: )) And that's how it should be, BIK. That's why you follow Islam.

Interesting comment about the directions on alcohol in the Qu'Ran. In Judaism, the sacrifces are limited, more limited and then the Temple is destroyed the first time - so then we 'render bulls with our lips' as the prophet said. And then the Temple is destroyed again AND Jerusalem is laid waste...... I have the impression that the 'sacrifices' YHVH wants from us now is, as Kipling put it 'an 'umble and a contrite heart' (of course I think he was quoting King David).

 

[BecauseIKnow]

When you say Prophet are you referring to Moses? I love Prophet Moses and all the Prophets. Prophet Jesus makes me sad when I read his story. And I feel like Prophet Muhammad is our family. We love him and I we have songs of him. That when he called on us we raised our hands to the sky to God. Prophets were comforters and messengers. They were so unique that people knew they were Prophets. That being said we something God says:

Allah (swt) says: &#8220;Take one step towards me, I will take ten steps towards you. Walk towards me, I will run towards you.&#8221; Hadith Qudsi.

This a nasheed of our Prophet:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgnTxq6cUQY]??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??????? - YouTube[/ame]

My favorite people and favorite thing is something I keep to myself. God holds them high and maybe he leads people to it.