what deference do we owe to police when stopped

[martybegan]

While the cop is being an asshole, just shut the fuck up

You have nothing to gain by getting in his face, bitching, whining or threatening him

Get his name and badge number, document what he said and you said and file a formal complaint

Of which nobody at his department will give a shit.

Just about everyone has a phone with a camera these days. Film every interaction you may have with a police officer.

People do give a shit! You have no idea - as usual - what goes on in an Internal Affairs Investigation. Most problems with a LEO begin when assholes like you, who already have a chip on their shoulder, fail the attitude test.

When a deputy first arrives on the scene, he or she has limited information and needs to quickly assess the situation. It's usually a good practice to keep one's mouth shut until asked a question. Only then is it wise to speak up, doing so before, unless the information to be imparted is critical to the officer's understanding, is usually intrusive and not productive.

I guesses we gotta show deference to da boss man, massa!!!

we is powerful sorry for tryin to enforce our rights.

 

[Bush92]

Yes sir, no sir, yes ma'm, no ma'm. It's not difficult.

 

[jwoodie]

Cops are civil servants who have passed a background check. That being said, the idea that they are out searching for innocent victims to murder is absurd. Most of them have never fired their weapons in the line of duty, and those who do face intense scrutiny. Not a good way to get promoted.

 

[JakeStarkey]

LEO acting badly?

There are ways and there are ways.

 

[whitehall]

Cops are civil servants who have passed a background check. That being said, the idea that they are out searching for innocent victims to murder is absurd. Most of them have never fired their weapons in the line of duty, and those who do face intense scrutiny. Not a good way to get promoted.

Think about it. If you are stopped by a state an local police officer it is assumed that you have violated some statute. Isn't it your civic duty to comply with the officer? Fair enough but you aren't under suspicion when federal cops tell you to remove your shoes before you board a plane. Why do you question the authority of state and local police officers who stop your vehicle for a traffic violation and willingly comply like sheep with every demeaning search before boarding a plane or even entering a federal facility?

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

Veteran Cop: 'If You Don't Want To Get Shot,' Shut Up -- Even If We're Violating Your Rights


I had a brother in law who was a San Diego County officer many years ago. He would say, "Not only do I enforce the law, I am the law!"

In a column titled, "Veteran Cop: 'If You Don't Want To Get Shot,' Shut Up -- Even If We're Violating Your Rights", responding to comments by a college professor who had been a cop for 17 years, Nick Wing responds,

"If you have the attitude that you are owed deference and instant obedience by the people around you, and that you are justified in using violence against them if they don't comply, we already have a problem. That's especially true if official institutions back you up, which they do."

"If you really think that everybody else should "just do what I tell you," you're wearing the wrong uniform in the wrong country. And if you really can't function with some give and take—a few nasty names, a little argument—of the sort that people in all sorts of jobs put up with every damned day, do us all a favor: quit."

I agree. The police are answerable to the citizenry in the end, not just the LEO community for which it works.

Welll, let's take a look at the opinion piece that was being responded to in your link:
I’m a cop. If you don’t want to get hurt, don’t challenge me.

Even though it might sound harsh and impolitic, here is the bottom line: if you don’t want to get shot, tased, pepper-sprayed, struck with a baton or thrown to the ground, just do what I tell you. Don’t argue with me, don’t call me names, don’t tell me that I can’t stop you, don’t say I’m a racist pig, don’t threaten that you’ll sue me and take away my badge. Don’t scream at me that you pay my salary, and don’t even think of aggressively walking towards me. Most field stops are complete in minutes. How difficult is it to cooperate for that long?

I have never ever seen or heard of a case where arguing, insulting, threatening, being belligerent to a cop made things better. In the history of ever that's never worked. But I have seen and heard plenty of cases where it made things worse.

What do people expect from mouthing off?
"But I wasn't doing anything wrong!"
"Oh. Well, I guess I'll just take your word for it. My bad; you're free to go."

"<insert random insults>"
"You're right, I am. And I feel terrible about it. No charges you're free to go."
Is that how people expect things to go? No. If you're pulled over and the cop intended to just give you a warning, but you're a dick about it....you're getting a ticket.

It's pretty simple: Don't be a jerk, especially to a person who has legal power over you. Regardless of whether or not the cop is a jerk (and plenty are) being a jerk as well is pointless and likely to make things worse.

Yes, some cops are major, self-important bully assholes. How does arguing with them or being belligerent help?

One need not be a "dick" to cops. That's certainly not a good idea. But, in my opinion, one should not kowtow to them either, especially if the cop is a dick. You should never answer questions, let alone admit guilt to anything, no matter how harmless you might think a cop's questions are. Assert your rights.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

For example, citizens are at liberty to refuse a request for a search absent reasonable suspicion, probable cause,exigent circumstances, or other searches not authorized in accordance with 4th Amendment jurisprudence.

True, and in doing so they are create even more suspicion about themselves, which is not likely to work to their benefit.

Whaaaa?

If a cop asks your permission to search your vehicle in a traffic stop, politely advise him that you do not voluntary consent to any searches/seizures of your person or your property. It's as simple as that. All you're communicating to that cop is that you know the law, that you know what your rights are.

 

[JakeStarkey]

M. D., good advice: if the cop can get a good warrant, then make them work for it.

Otherwise, a polite "no" to searches and seizures.

 

[pinqy]

One need not be a "dick" to cops. That's certainly not a good idea. But, in my opinion, one should not kowtow to them either, especially if the cop is a dick. You should never answer questions, let alone admit guilt to anything, no matter how harmless you might think a cop's questions are. Assert your rights.

I agree. But I've seen many people take the idea of "not kowtowing" to mean being aggressively assertive or passive aggressive. "None of your business," and "you don't need to know," "I don't have to answer you," or "I'm not doing anything wrong," are all antagonistic, even if technically true. Politely asking "I'm sorry, is there a problem? Why are you asking me that" is fine...but a hostile or defensive tone is a bad idea.
While there are exceptions, the majority of the time the cop has a legitimate reason for asking questions, or at least believes he does, and making his job harder is not really a good idea and is a waste of everyone's time. Never admit to guilt, and don't consent to search, (except for a Terry frisk, which doesn't need consent), sure. But answer simple questions that can't incriminate you to satisfy his curiosity or whatever reason he stopped you. Makes things easier for everyone.

 

[Mojo2]

The problem is there are ZERO real repercussions for an officer that violates someones rights, even repeatedly. They are cleared by their Unions, their departments, and the politicians that hire them. Policing cannot be treated like a job where you are protected when you screw up, and guess what? Violating someones rights is screwing up.

If you don't want to run the risk of losing your pension because you can't do your job, don't become a fucking police officer.

Oh?

You may be right but I'm not buying until you provide proof.

Cause that isn't the impression i have of police at this moment.

Adam -12, Baby!

 

[ClosedCaption]

The problem is there are ZERO real repercussions for an officer that violates someones rights, even repeatedly. They are cleared by their Unions, their departments, and the politicians that hire them. Policing cannot be treated like a job where you are protected when you screw up, and guess what? Violating someones rights is screwing up.

If you don't want to run the risk of losing your pension because you can't do your job, don't become a fucking police officer.

Oh?

You may be right but I'm not buying until you provide proof.

Cause that isn't the impression i have of police at this moment.

Adam -12, Baby!

 

[Mojo2]

I have my license and registration ready with my hands in plain sight. We have a little chat and I'm on my way. Reduced stress is good for everyone.

Usually how it goes for me, too — 'cept "on my way" usually means to a holding cell downtown.

 

[Mojo2]

Basically anything that happens to blacks by anyone pretty much is for a good reason.

Wow man!

You are even worse than I thought you were!

Anti-American.

Pro-Jihadists.

Now racist, for REAL!

What's your next stop, pedophilia?

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

One need not be a "dick" to cops. That's certainly not a good idea. But, in my opinion, one should not kowtow to them either, especially if the cop is a dick. You should never answer questions, let alone admit guilt to anything, no matter how harmless you might think a cop's questions are. Assert your rights.

I agree. But I've seen many people take the idea of "not kowtowing" to mean being aggressively assertive or passive aggressive. "None of your business," and "you don't need to know," "I don't have to answer you," or "I'm not doing anything wrong," are all antagonistic, even if technically true. Politely asking "I'm sorry, is there a problem? Why are you asking me that" is fine...but a hostile or defensive tone is a bad idea.
While there are exceptions, the majority of the time the cop has a legitimate reason for asking questions, or at least believes he does, and making his job harder is not really a good idea and is a waste of everyone's time. Never admit to guilt, and don't consent to search, (except for a Terry frisk, which doesn't need consent), sure. But answer simple questions that can't incriminate you to satisfy his curiosity or whatever reason he stopped you. Makes things easier for everyone.

Well, sure, a sensible person will measure the situation and keep the encounter as diplomatically reasonable as possible.

Questions like "I'm sorry, is there a problem?" or "Why are you asking me that?" are essentially the same thing as asking the cop to state a lawful motive for detaining you. Ask away. Just don't answer any of his questions, for, ultimately, it doesn't matter why he's detaining you. It’s imperative that you assert your rights at all times, that you protect yourself at all times against the possibility of providing incriminating answers or giving the officer a lawful reason to detain you any longer than necessary.

Also, a cop still needs a lawful motive to search you in a Terry stop, and he is required by law to state a lawful grounds of reasonable suspicion.

I've had a couple of police encounters in which the officer leaned into me, so to speak, attempted to intimidate me, treated me as if I was out of line when I politely asserted my rights, i.e., politely evaded his questions with counter questions directly aimed at his motive.

At that point, I reminded the respective officer that the only person under any obligation to answer questions was he. Further, "I don’t consent to any searches/seizures of my person or my property, and I have the right to remain silent. Am I being detained or am I free to go?"

Trust me. Cops don't always stop folks due to reasonable suspicion, but once they do detain you they are looking for reasonable suspicion.

"Where are you coming from?"

"Oh, from Safeway."

"Ah! There was a robbery there about 15 minutes ago. . . ."

If that's true, you just gave him grounds to escalate the encounter. Also, cops can use deception to excite you, frighten you, intimidate you, to compromise your position and/or incriminate you. Never answer any questions. Never divulge any more information than you are required to divulge under the law, depending on the circumstances, for example, should you be on foot or in a vehicle. Never!

In police encounters no question is an innocent question.

Those cops didn't like the fact that I asserted my rights, but they also knew that they had to let me go without further delay. I didn't give them any grounds on which they could lawfully escalate the encounter.

I'm not telling you anything that a good lawyer wouldn't tell you. In fact, I'm not telling you anything that a cop wouldn't tell you were he to be frank with you. But his job is not to be frank with you or to be your lawyer.

It's important that we defend our rights, especially given the abuses of Terry stops in cities like New York, Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago, D.C. and so on. . . . Too many police departments and too many cops are getting too used to the idea that these kinds of abuses are okay, and this is the default, paternalistic law enforcement of cities that curtail the right of the people to keep and bear arms against crime.

 

[Anathema]

Whaaaa?

If a cop asks your permission to search your vehicle in a traffic stop, politely advise him that you do not voluntary consent to any searches/seizures of your person or your property. It's as simple as that. All you're communicating to that cop is that you know the law, that you know what your rights are.

At which point he should put your ass in cuffs and hold you until the warrant arrives just as a reminder of who has the gun and the power.

 

[Statistikhengst]

Veteran Cop: 'If You Don't Want To Get Shot,' Shut Up -- Even If We're Violating Your Rights


I had a brother in law who was a San Diego County officer many years ago. He would say, "Not only do I enforce the law, I am the law!"

In a column titled, "Veteran Cop: 'If You Don't Want To Get Shot,' Shut Up -- Even If We're Violating Your Rights", responding to comments by a college professor who had been a cop for 17 years, Nick Wing responds,

"If you have the attitude that you are owed deference and instant obedience by the people around you, and that you are justified in using violence against them if they don't comply, we already have a problem. That's especially true if official institutions back you up, which they do."

"If you really think that everybody else should "just do what I tell you," you're wearing the wrong uniform in the wrong country. And if you really can't function with some give and take—a few nasty names, a little argument—of the sort that people in all sorts of jobs put up with every damned day, do us all a favor: quit."

I agree. The police are answerable to the citizenry in the end, not just the LEO community for which it works.

Good thread.

 

[JakeStarkey]

At which point he should put your ass in cuffs and hold you until the warrant arrives just as a reminder of who has the gun and the power.

Most of the time the warrant request won't be approved, and the citizen has a decent case for damages of false imprisonment.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

Whaaaa?

If a cop asks your permission to search your vehicle in a traffic stop, politely advise him that you do not voluntary consent to any searches/seizures of your person or your property. It's as simple as that. All you're communicating to that cop is that you know the law, that you know what your rights are.

At which point he should put your ass in cuffs and hold you until the warrant arrives just as a reminder of who has the gun and the power.

You're outside your mind. Only an idiot cop who has no business whatsoever packing a badge would pull such a stunt.

 

[Anathema]

Most of the time the warrant request won't be approved, and the citizen has a decent case for damages of false imprisonment.

Then it's time to leave that department. I'm being nice. My true feeling us the cop should beat the shit out of you for being a jackass.

 

[martybegan]

The problem is there are ZERO real repercussions for an officer that violates someones rights, even repeatedly. They are cleared by their Unions, their departments, and the politicians that hire them. Policing cannot be treated like a job where you are protected when you screw up, and guess what? Violating someones rights is screwing up.

If you don't want to run the risk of losing your pension because you can't do your job, don't become a fucking police officer.

Oh?

You may be right but I'm not buying until you provide proof.

Cause that isn't the impression i have of police at this moment.

Adam -12, Baby!

Look up the Salt lake dog shooting.