What do Catholics mean when they say

[Dhara]

That doesn't make any sense to me, that "God" has a human personality.

We are made in the image and likeness of God. This doesn't make God human, doesn't make us God, but we do share, in different ways, similar traits. The story of Elijah's meeting of God made a great impression on me. With something as magnificent and as infinite as God, one would expect to meet Him in powerful events. Yet, Elijah encountered God in a quiet whispering sound.

Moses also had an interesting experience. He learned that when God is directly in front of us, we are blinded. It is after God passes (i.e., only in hindsight) that we can identify the presence of God.

We are also taught not to let our right hand know what our left hand is doing. God seems to be a master at that.

We can see Godliness in each of these examples. We humans cannot enfold ourselves in a tiny whispering sound; we are better seen directly, not in hindsight; and we leave evidence of where we have been and what we have done all over the place. I'm simply advising people who are looking for God and cannot seem to find Him, that they may be on the lookout for something eye-catching and powerful. Instead of looking for macro, try micro.

I'm not looking for God. I do appreciate ALL people like you who are fully satisfied in their religious tradition. Buddhism does for me, what the RCC does for you, and more.

 

[Dhara]

The catholic church would not allow the parents to bury their daughter in cosecrated ground. She was a dear friend of mine, when she committed suicide in 1965. They made the same decision (including the limbo, mumbo jumbo) about my wife's first child, who was born dead, without being baptised, in 1970. During my lifetime, they also stopped requiring latin mass, and meatless Fridays. I have no idea what their current teachings are, but if I had been catholic, I would have told them long ago that they were short on compassion and long on dogma....and to let me know when they finally decided just what displeases god this year.

Prior to the 1960s (and it appears in some places even during the 1960s) Catholic funeral masses were said for victims of suicide, but because it is a grave sin, burial in a Catholic cemetery at that time would have been cause for scandal--as were burials of divorced and remarried Catholics. Since then, the world has learned more about the mental health of many suicide attempts.

"Limbo" was never a place for infants. "Limbo" was the state the Church was in when it was asked about the fate of unbaptized babies. Scripture does not address this situation, so the Church cannot say, "This happens" or "That happens." The Church simply entrusts the situation to God. The usual practice is that if the parents were baptized and intended to have their child baptized (i.e., attended the baptismal classes) babies would be in the same situation as catechumens preparing for adult baptism. Burial in a Catholic cemetery is permitted in both cases.

Masses were said in Latin, because this dated back centuries when Latin was the common language nearly everyone understood. The Church elected to use the common language, rather than an elite language.

Meatless Fridays were about forming a bond and understanding with the poor. It went hand-in-hand with alms giving.

The Church has always taught compassion, but equally, has always pointed to the ideal. Suicide is not the ideal. In the last fifty years with more knowledge available, there are Catholic ministries to support family and friends of suicide victims.

There was nothing vague about what the priest told the woman who later became my wife, about her baby, who was born dead, and not baptised. He told her that the baby was in limbo, and that consequently she and the baby were separated for eternity, and that the baby could not be buried in consecrated ground. She stood up, walked out, and never returned.

Wretched teaching. Wrong, in every way. No wonder she never looked back.

 

[Blackrook]

Non-Catholics pile abuse on top of the Catholic Church, and hate it, and call it "Whore of Babylon." None of this hurts the Church.

The only thing that can hurt the Church is what Catholics do to it from the inside, to make it look bad, to harm its reputation, to discredit it.

So guno can say blah blah blah all day, and it doesn't bother me.

 

[Dhara]

I certainly mean no harm to the RCC. I benefited from my early training in the RCC, and I benefited from leaving the RCC too.

 

[OZman]

My father committed suicide. It was after that I put the RCC behind me.

That was a very wise decision Dhara.

Wise decision? ... How emotionless is such a stupid sentence? ... What is this what you demonstrate here? A completly wrotten mind? If his father really made suicide then this is a very heavy personal catastrophe. Not many things are more terrible. What do you call "wise" in this context?

You figure it out you vitriolic clown.

 

[hobelim]

Non-Catholics pile abuse on top of the Catholic Church, and hate it, and call it "Whore of Babylon." None of this hurts the Church.

The only thing that can hurt the Church is what Catholics do to it from the inside, to make it look bad, to harm its reputation, to discredit it.

So guno can say blah blah blah all day, and it doesn't bother me.

Your church teaches people that the very thing that the law teaches results in death is the way to eternal life.

No one can make the church look worse than that, nothing can harm its reputation more than that, and no one can discredit the Church better than the Church has already discredited itself by claiming such a thing..

You seek spiritual life on your knees from a lifeless cracker.


It doesn't bother you when someone points out the absurdity of what you are mixed up in?

yeah right.

 

[Meriweather]

There was nothing vague about what the priest told the woman who later became my wife, about her baby, who was born dead, and not baptised. He told her that the baby was in limbo, and that consequently she and the baby were separated for eternity, and that the baby could not be buried in consecrated ground. She stood up, walked out, and never returned.

My sister had a very different experience when her baby was born dead. I am sorry for your wife's experience. While I know the Church tries to be universal in all practices and teachings, this isn't the first time I've heard individual priests acting very differently. For example, a friend of mine and I had grandparents who married non-Catholics. My grandmother married an atheist. Her priest was supportive, whereas the other priest essentially (if not in actual words) told my friend's grandparents that if the marriage occurred they would not be welcome in the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church has always refuted Limbo as being a third and final resting place, apart from heaven. It sounds like the priest your wife spoke with didn't get this memo, as he told your wife she and her baby would be forever separated. Again, the Church does not have any scriptural backing to teach what happens to infants who are born dead or before baptism. Like people of other faiths, they are simply entrusted to a loving God of great mercy.

As far as standing up, walking out, and never returning: Why do people do that? Almost any other priest would have helped, but because one did not, all get broad-brushed?

 

[hobelim]

As far as standing up, walking out, and never returning: Why do people do that?

Duh....

When Jesus told someone to get out of their deathbed, stand up and walk like a man, why did they do it?


Thank you for helping to show the wisdom of God in giving the command to refrain from the flesh of anything that crawls on its belly and for so generously demonstrating the terrifying and disturbing death consequent to disobedience.

 

[Meriweather]

Duh....

Seriously. If we walk into our house one day and find a spider, do we turn around, walk out, and never return--leaving all that is in the house behind?

A grieving mother talks to a priest seeking comfort. One person does not provide that comfort, so she walks out and leaves everything else behind. I can understand not wanting to see that particular individual ever again. But what about everyone, everything else?

 

[hobelim]

Duh....

Seriously. If we walk into our house one day and find a spider, do we turn around, walk out, and never return--leaving all that is in the house behind?

A grieving mother talks to a priest seeking comfort. One person does not provide that comfort, so she walks out and leaves everything else behind. I can understand not wanting to see that particular individual ever again. But what about everyone, everything else?

Seriously, I agree that one spider is no reason to run but when a house becomes the habitation of every sort of foul and loathsome beast and bird why would anyone who is not and does not want to become an unclean creature stay ?


Seriously, if by some miracle your eyes were opened to how degrading and detrimental to your mental heath Church teaching is and how that has and would continue to negatively affect the quality of your life for the rest of your life why would wouldn't you leave the church like bat out of hell?

 

[Vandalshandle]

There was nothing vague about what the priest told the woman who later became my wife, about her baby, who was born dead, and not baptised. He told her that the baby was in limbo, and that consequently she and the baby were separated for eternity, and that the baby could not be buried in consecrated ground. She stood up, walked out, and never returned.

My sister had a very different experience when her baby was born dead. I am sorry for your wife's experience. While I know the Church tries to be universal in all practices and teachings, this isn't the first time I've heard individual priests acting very differently. For example, a friend of mine and I had grandparents who married non-Catholics. My grandmother married an atheist. Her priest was supportive, whereas the other priest essentially (if not in actual words) told my friend's grandparents that if the marriage occurred they would not be welcome in the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church has always refuted Limbo as being a third and final resting place, apart from heaven. It sounds like the priest your wife spoke with didn't get this memo, as he told your wife she and her baby would be forever separated. Again, the Church does not have any scriptural backing to teach what happens to infants who are born dead or before baptism. Like people of other faiths, they are simply entrusted to a loving God of great mercy.

As far as standing up, walking out, and never returning: Why do people do that? Almost any other priest would have helped, but because one did not, all get broad-brushed?

Why did she do that? For one thing, if you were a member of a catholic church in New Orleans, and you wanted to become a member of a different catholic church in New orleans, the new priest asked you to obtain a blessing from your old priest before you could join the new church. In fact, a priest refused to marry her daughter unless the daughter's new priest obtained the blessing of the daughters regular priest to perform the ceremony. i suppose that it was some sort of professional courtesy among priests.

But, my wife told me that the primary reason that she stood up and walked out was because of the lack of compassion offered by the catholic church. She never was religious because of fear, but because of the comfort that religion offered to her. She told me that the Catholics were heavy on reliance of fear of god and light on compassion. She felt that they had failed her in a time of crisis, and she had no use for it.

In summery, she came to feel that priests were all about judgment, and dogma, with no room in their philosophy for comfort and compassion. In turn, she found that she had need for priests. This, by the way, is a road frequently traveled from the catholic church to a protestant church.

Don't get the impression that I favor protestant churches. I am an atheist. I respect people's faith, for the most part, but i have trouble dealing with religions, such as Catholics and LDS, which are "top down" authoritarian institutions. Put simply, I have no use for a religion that won't even allow you to fire your own priest.

 

[Meriweather]

Why did she do that? For one thing, if you were a member of a catholic church in New Orleans, and you wanted to become a member of a different catholic church in New orleans, the new priest asked you to obtain a blessing from your old priest before you could join the new church. In fact, a priest refused to marry her daughter unless the daughter's new priest obtained the blessing of the daughters regular priest to perform the ceremony. i suppose that it was some sort of professional courtesy among priests.

But, my wife told me that the primary reason that she stood up and walked out was because of the lack of compassion offered by the catholic church. She never was religious because of fear, but because of the comfort that religion offered to her. She told me that the Catholics were heavy on reliance of fear of god and light on compassion. She felt that they had failed her in a time of crisis, and she had no use for it.

In summery, she came to feel that priests were all about judgment, and dogma, with no room in their philosophy for comfort and compassion. In turn, she found that she had need for priests. This, by the way, is a road frequently traveled from the catholic church to a protestant church.

Don't get the impression that I favor protestant churches. I am an atheist. I respect people's faith, for the most part, but i have trouble dealing with religions, such as Catholics and LDS, which are "top down" authoritarian institutions. Put simply, I have no use for a religion that won't even allow you to fire your own priest.

Reliance on the fear of God and not being able to change parishes could be a New Orleans things. The closest I've been to New Orleans is Houston. There was never an issue with me not going to my parish church, but to another one not far away. Wasn't married there, but my youngest daughter was baptized there. No problem at all that my residence was officially in another parish.

No question, but had I gone through what your wife passed through, I could have reached the same conclusion. While I've lived in different parts of four different states, obviously I've been lucky enough that the tradition was to tell of the love and compassion God has for all. In my entire life (and I do attend Mass each week) I can only recall three homilies on hell. I remember there were three simply because they were so rare.

In one small town, there was a priest I did bang heads with, but that was more a blip on the screen. Even so, it never crossed my mind I should fire him. No reason to. Most parishes have several priests. There is nothing wrong with seeking out the one that you relate best with. It appears that was hard to do living in New Orleans.

Prayers (and the Mass is a prayer) may be said for an unbaptized child. Your wife's priest (in my opinion) should have at the very least offered that, pointing out Jesus own words: 'Let the children come to me, do not hinder them.' He might have also reminded your wife that heaven is said to be the place where every tear is wiped away. I don't know why he did not--especially as late as the 1970s. Your wife should have received every condolence available.

 

[zaangalewa]

My father committed suicide. It was after that I put the RCC behind me.

That was a very wise decision Dhara.

Wise decision? ... How emotionless is such a stupid sentence? ... What is this what you demonstrate here? A completly wrotten mind? If his father really made suicide then this is a very heavy personal catastrophe. Not many things are more terrible. What do you call "wise" in this context?

You figure it out you vitriolic clown.

¿"vitriolic clown"? ... ¿hasserfüllter Narr?, ¿ätzender Gnom? ... anyway. I guess I understand what you like to express: You would feel much more comfortable if no Catholic would speak the english language and everyone in the world would speak the english language.

 

[OZman]

My father committed suicide. It was after that I put the RCC behind me.

That was a very wise decision Dhara.

Wise decision? ... How emotionless is such a stupid sentence? ... What is this what you demonstrate here? A completly wrotten mind? If his father really made suicide then this is a very heavy personal catastrophe. Not many things are more terrible. What do you call "wise" in this context?

You figure it out you vitriolic clown.

¿"vitriolic clown"? ... ¿hasserfüllter Narr?, ¿ätzender Gnom? ... anyway. I guess I understand what you like to express: You would feel much more comfortable if no Catholic would speak the english language and everyone in the world would speak the english language.

I would prefer it if all Churches stopped the indoctrination of heaven and hell into the world consciousness.

A light read that is in line with my own understanding.
The True Spiritual and Mystical Meaning of Heaven and Eternity

 

[zaangalewa]

That doesn't make any sense to me, that "God" has a human personality.

We are made in the image and likeness of God. This doesn't make God human, doesn't make us God, but we do share, in different ways, similar traits. The story of Elijah's meeting of God made a great impression on me. With something as magnificent and as infinite as God, one would expect to meet Him in powerful events. Yet, Elijah encountered God in a quiet whispering sound.

Moses also had an interesting experience. He learned that when God is directly in front of us, we are blinded. It is after God passes (i.e., only in hindsight) that we can identify the presence of God.

We are also taught not to let our right hand know what our left hand is doing. God seems to be a master at that.

We can see Godliness in each of these examples. We humans cannot enfold ourselves in a tiny whispering sound; we are better seen directly, not in hindsight; and we leave evidence of where we have been and what we have done all over the place. I'm simply advising people who are looking for God and cannot seem to find Him, that they may be on the lookout for something eye-catching and powerful. Instead of looking for macro, try micro.

I'm not looking for God. I do appreciate ALL people like you who are fully satisfied in their religious tradition. Buddhism does for me, what the RCC does for you, and more.

I remember when once a Fench journalist started to interview the Dalai Lama he proudly said somehtign like Buddhism is good + blablabla + and: "I do not believe in god". But the Dalai Lama answered not 'Very good. Now you are on the way to become a Buddhist' or something like this. The Dalai Lama answered: "That's maybe the reason why god sent you to me."

You said you left the catholic church, because your father made suicide. The subluminal message was either "suicide is not a sin" or "the rules of the catholic church hold him not back to do so" or "the people in the catholic church did not help me". What you say now with the sentence "I certainly mean no harm to the RCC. I benefited from my early training in the RCC, and I benefited from leaving the RCC too." might be correct or not - but sounds in my ears as if you would try to follow teachings which are not in harmony with your own person. Don't forget please: You are not your father. And don't forget: Psychological traumata are real wounds. It's perhaps not a bad idea to look for a trauma therapist in the real world outside of the internet.

 

[zaangalewa]

My father committed suicide. It was after that I put the RCC behind me.

That was a very wise decision Dhara.

Wise decision? ... How emotionless is such a stupid sentence? ... What is this what you demonstrate here? A completly wrotten mind? If his father really made suicide then this is a very heavy personal catastrophe. Not many things are more terrible. What do you call "wise" in this context?

You figure it out you vitriolic clown.

¿"vitriolic clown"? ... ¿hasserfüllter Narr?, ¿ätzender Gnom? ... anyway. I guess I understand what you like to express: You would feel much more comfortable if no Catholic would speak the english language and everyone in the world would speak the english language.

I would prefer it if all Churches stopped the indoctrination of heaven and hell into the world consciousness.

A light read that is in line with my own understanding.
The True Spiritual and Mystical Meaning of Heaven and Eternity

And I would prefer Unbeliefers would stop to murder other people while screaming "Allahu Akbar". What an idiotism and what a blasphemy.

 

[zaangalewa]

This is not one of thosethings I ought to be discussing here. My apologies for bringing i t forward.

That was the teaching of the RCC and have since they have come to more understanding and that those who commit suicide are in a dark place and they have also changed their mind on unbaptized babies being in limbo, but both have cause many people pain throughout the years. No one knows anything of what happens after death.

The so called "limbus" (=People who are without their own fault in a kind of pre-hell) was always only a theological hypothese, how Joseph, the bishop of Munich, said in 1985 (Joseph became later Benedict XVI., bishop of Rome). Also before he said so this story was without a big relevance. Anyway a change which rechanges a change is normally only called "back to the roots". Lots of people today believe for example also in Lucifer and think this name has something to do with the devil - but "Lucifer" never was a name of the devil. Stupid.

And do not forget: Mary - the mother of god - is a Jew. I don't have any lousy idea, how you like to explain god in the end of times: "I hate your mother - so throw her into hell and give me a place in heaven." Sure I don't know what will happen after your death - but sounds not like a story with an happy end for you, except maybe you start to live a happy and beautiful life without racism now. Start now immediatelly, if possible, because no one knows the day and the hour ... Don't be lazy. Change yourselve. Some fought very hard in their lifes - like for example Ludwig Hirsch, who lost in the end his very hard fight against his depressions by doing suicide. He's one of the fighters for life, I admire most. To lose is not a shame - not to try to fight is the shame.

 

[Penelope]

This is not one of thosethings I ought to be discussing here. My apologies for bringing i t forward.

That was the teaching of the RCC and have since they have come to more understanding and that those who commit suicide are in a dark place and they have also changed their mind on unbaptized babies being in limbo, but both have cause many people pain throughout the years. No one knows anything of what happens after death.

The so called "limbus" (=People who are without their own fault in a kind of pre-hell) was always only a theological hypothese, how Joseph, the bishop of Munich, said in 1985 (Joseph became later Benedict XVI., bishop of Rome). Also before he said so this story was without a big relevance. Anyway a change which rechanges a change is normally only called "back to the roots". Lots of people today believe for example also in Lucifer and think this name has something to do with the devil - but "Lucifer" never was a name of the devil. Stupid.

And do not forget: Mary - the mother of god - is a Jew. I don't have any lousy idea, how you like to explain god in the end of times: "I hate your mother - so throw her into hell and give me a place in heaven." Sure I don't know what will happen after your death - but sounds not like a story with an happy end for you, except maybe you start to live a happy and beautiful life without racism now. Start now immediatelly, if possible, because no one knows the day and the hour ... Don't be lazy. Change yourselve. Some fought very hard in their lifes - like for example Ludwig Hirsch, who lost in the end his very hard fight against his depressions by doing suicide. He's one of the fighters for life, I admire most. To lose is not a shame - not to try to fight is the shame.

I have no delusions that Jesus is a Jew demigod. The jews never had a trinity, Rome did and Christianity is a Roman invention in an attempt to become an all inclusive religion, and to stop the jewish zealots in Alexandria and Judea. It was begun by the Flavius family and their writers. Its all Roman, Julius had a adopted son of God called Agustus, Titus was the actual son of Vespasian. There is nothing jewish about Christianity. But there are jews who did not practice Judaism who helped Vespasian and also Titus, Tiberius Julius Alexander and his father, a wealthy Alexandria family, of which Philo belonged. Everyone could become a Christian without having their penises cut. We belong to the Roman Catholic Church. Greeks use to mate with Gods, Alexander was said to be the son of Zeus.
As the jews stole from those before them, Rome also took from the previous stories and made them their own.

also since no one knows what happens when we die, it makes life all that more special, which is why war is a waste of time.

 

[OZman]

That was a very wise decision Dhara.

Wise decision? ... How emotionless is such a stupid sentence? ... What is this what you demonstrate here? A completly wrotten mind? If his father really made suicide then this is a very heavy personal catastrophe. Not many things are more terrible. What do you call "wise" in this context?

You figure it out you vitriolic clown.

¿"vitriolic clown"? ... ¿hasserfüllter Narr?, ¿ätzender Gnom? ... anyway. I guess I understand what you like to express: You would feel much more comfortable if no Catholic would speak the english language and everyone in the world would speak the english language.

I would prefer it if all Churches stopped the indoctrination of heaven and hell into the world consciousness.

A light read that is in line with my own understanding.
The True Spiritual and Mystical Meaning of Heaven and Eternity

And I would prefer Unbeliefers would stop to murder other people while screaming "Allahu Akbar". What an idiotism and what a blasphemy.

Typical medieval histrionics.

 

[hobelim]

My father committed suicide. It was after that I put the RCC behind me.

That was a very wise decision Dhara.

Wise decision? ... How emotionless is such a stupid sentence? ... What is this what you demonstrate here? A completly wrotten mind? If his father really made suicide then this is a very heavy personal catastrophe. Not many things are more terrible. What do you call "wise" in this context?

You figure it out you vitriolic clown.

¿"vitriolic clown"? ... ¿hasserfüllter Narr?, ¿ätzender Gnom? ... anyway. I guess I understand what you like to express: You would feel much more comfortable if no Catholic would speak the english language and everyone in the world would speak the english language.

I would prefer it if all Churches stopped the indoctrination of heaven and hell into the world consciousness.

A light read that is in line with my own understanding.
The True Spiritual and Mystical Meaning of Heaven and Eternity

Your own understanding seems to be in line with the deeper implications of church teachings that remain above the grasp of the irrational and the superstitious people of the world below.

If you don't like the idea of heaven and hell, how do you feel about the great gulf that separates rational people from irrational people being expressed as great as what separates the living from the dead?