What does "from the river to the sea, Palestine must be free" mean?

[karpenter]

The Jewish people did not, in fact, take back the sovereignty over their homeland by conquest. They returned and created sovereignty in their historical homelands through peaceful and legal means, with the full blessing of the international community recognizing their existing right to do so.

Under The British Balfour Declaration

 

[Coyote]

The Jewish people did not, in fact, take back the sovereignty over their homeland by conquest. They returned and created sovereignty in their historical homelands through peaceful and legal means, with the full blessing of the international community recognizing their existing right to do so.

Actually, they did it by a mixture of violence and legal means. You can't ignore the roles played by Irgun, Sterns, and other militias or the fact that war WAS a part of it - war against the British, war against the Arabs who, likewise, were conducting their own wars. Israel's Jewish population sought a Jewish state in the midst of an area populated by multiple ethnic groups each seeking similar national recognition following the end of external rule. That really shouldn't be ignored - it's an important part of history and pretending that it was all peace and roses on the Jewish people's part is very deceptive. The reality of the time was grim, nasty, and violent all around. The Jewish people won their battle for national self determination. The Arab peoples lost their war to control the entire region. The Palestinian people have nothing.

Disclaimer to others: please don't start up on how horrible the Arabs were etc etc, as I said it was violent all around.

 

[Coyote]

Israel may have been FOUNDED as a state for the Jewish people but it was placed smack dab on top a plethora of religious and ethnic people already living there.

Oh come on. Now you are just parroting the same sound bytes Tinmore uses all the time.

Are you saying that indigenous or long-term peoples have no right to reclaim their homeland? That once a land is invaded, conquered and colonized that the existing peoples have no rights?! That if you live there -- its yours? Cool. Then Israel conquered the shit out of that place and they live there and its theirs now.

You are literally the last person on this board with even a shred of balanced thinking. Please don't give in to the simple sound bytes.

Look Shusha, it isn't a sound byte. The region that is now the nation of Israel was inhabited by a variety of groups, groups that currently STILL live there: Demographics of Israel

They didn't suddenly appear after Israel established it's nationhood. The Jewish people established their state in the midst of a multi-cultural/multi-ethnic/multi-religious region that included Jews. That is not a sound byte that is an acceptance of realty.

I am saying nothing about invading, colonizing yada yada yada. So don't put words in my mouth. But pretending that what I said isn't so is ignoring history.

 

[Shusha]

Israel may have been FOUNDED as a state for the Jewish people but it was placed smack dab on top a plethora of religious and ethnic people already living there.

Oh come on. Now you are just parroting the same sound bytes Tinmore uses all the time.

Are you saying that indigenous or long-term peoples have no right to reclaim their homeland? That once a land is invaded, conquered and colonized that the existing peoples have no rights?! That if you live there -- its yours? Cool. Then Israel conquered the shit out of that place and they live there and its theirs now.

You are literally the last person on this board with even a shred of balanced thinking. Please don't give in to the simple sound bytes.

Look Shusha, it isn't a sound byte. The region that is now the nation of Israel was inhabited by a variety of groups, groups that currently STILL live there: Demographics of Israel

They didn't suddenly appear after Israel established it's nationhood. The Jewish people established their state in the midst of a multi-cultural/multi-ethnic/multi-religious region that included Jews. That is not a sound byte that is an acceptance of realty.

I am saying nothing about invading, colonizing yada yada yada. So don't put words in my mouth. But pretending that what I said isn't so is ignoring history.

The Jewish people established their State in their homeland. That was the reason and purpose of it. And Israel has every right to found its State based on its own culture in its own homeland.

No one is denying the facts that other ethnic groups live there. The reason I label it a sound byte is because it is a simplistic demand that the Jewish people accommodate those ethnic groups to their own detriment -- a demand made of no other people. The Jewish people have accommodated the Arab Palestinian people more than any other liberation movement in the world has EVER accommodated an invading or competing culture despite the fact that the Arabs are insistent on trying to erase every scrap and ounce of Jewish culture, existence and history in the Jewish homeland and continue to insist on religious replacement theology as well. What normally happens when a territory is broken up through liberation movements (especially violent ones) into independent States is a population exchange and relatively homogeneous new States with small minorities of other groups.

BUT, and in point of fact on this very thread, the Arab Palestinians continue to insist on "the river to the sea".

 

[Shusha]

The Jewish people did not, in fact, take back the sovereignty over their homeland by conquest. They returned and created sovereignty in their historical homelands through peaceful and legal means, with the full blessing of the international community recognizing their existing right to do so.

Actually, they did it by a mixture of violence and legal means. You can't ignore the roles played by Irgun, Sterns, and other militias or the fact that war WAS a part of it - war against the British, war against the Arabs who, likewise, were conducting their own wars. Israel's Jewish population sought a Jewish state in the midst of an area populated by multiple ethnic groups each seeking similar national recognition following the end of external rule. That really shouldn't be ignored - it's an important part of history and pretending that it was all peace and roses on the Jewish people's part is very deceptive. The reality of the time was grim, nasty, and violent all around. The Jewish people won their battle for national self determination. The Arab peoples lost their war to control the entire region. The Palestinian people have nothing.

Disclaimer to others: please don't start up on how horrible the Arabs were etc etc, as I said it was violent all around.

You are trying to make an equivalence where there is none. Israel was created in the same way Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq were created. Israel had the blessing of the international community and the blessing of at least some Arab leaders. Israel had a recognized existing right to reconstitute her homeland. And Jewish people returned as farmers and builders and business people and NOT as a military force. The military force grew in Israel in the 1920s and 1930s as a direct RESPONSE to Arab violence against them. That is not conquest. That isn't even war. That is a self-defense mechanism in direct response to threat.

And the Arab Palestinians do not have "nothing". They have territory; resources; international funding and support and recognition; a thriving economic trade partner right next door to them; a neighbor willing to provide them with medical care and technology and education; another several neighbors with a thriving, near identical culture to assist them and an entire Arab world to support their rights to their religious places.

Do you know what they DON'T have? They don't have the WILL to take all those opportunities and turn them into something useful and productive. And they don't have that because they keep telling themselves, and the world keeps telling them, that they have nothing and its all the fault of the Jews.

Do you know who had nothing? Really, really had nothing? The Jewish people when they began returning in earnest to their homeland in the wake of the Shoah that murdered more than half of their total population. And the million Jewish people who were actual, real refugees with nothing more than what they could carry, having been deprived of their property, their wealth and all their belongings in Arab lands. That's nothing. And look what they built from nothing in 70 years!

So I don't buy your, "but the poor Arab Palestinians have nothing".

 

[fncceo]

This is primarily a question for Team Palestine.

"From the river to the sea, Palestine must be free". What does this mean to you? How will we know that Palestine is free? What are the conditions which much be met?

The women are going to throw off their burka's and run naked into the sea?

I can get behind that.

If you actually saw them in the buff, you'd be behind double burkhas.

The more coverage, the better.

 

[José]

LOL...

fncceo and his lifelong crusade against balzacian ladies...

 

[Coyote]

The Jewish people did not, in fact, take back the sovereignty over their homeland by conquest. They returned and created sovereignty in their historical homelands through peaceful and legal means, with the full blessing of the international community recognizing their existing right to do so.

Actually, they did it by a mixture of violence and legal means. You can't ignore the roles played by Irgun, Sterns, and other militias or the fact that war WAS a part of it - war against the British, war against the Arabs who, likewise, were conducting their own wars. Israel's Jewish population sought a Jewish state in the midst of an area populated by multiple ethnic groups each seeking similar national recognition following the end of external rule. That really shouldn't be ignored - it's an important part of history and pretending that it was all peace and roses on the Jewish people's part is very deceptive. The reality of the time was grim, nasty, and violent all around. The Jewish people won their battle for national self determination. The Arab peoples lost their war to control the entire region. The Palestinian people have nothing.

Disclaimer to others: please don't start up on how horrible the Arabs were etc etc, as I said it was violent all around.

You are trying to make an equivalence where there is none. Israel was created in the same way Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq were created. Israel had the blessing of the international community and the blessing of at least some Arab leaders. Israel had a recognized existing right to reconstitute her homeland. And Jewish people returned as farmers and builders and business people and NOT as a military force. The military force grew in Israel in the 1920s and 1930s as a direct RESPONSE to Arab violence against them. That is not conquest. That isn't even war. That is a self-defense mechanism in direct response to threat.

And the Arab Palestinians do not have "nothing". They have territory; resources; international funding and support and recognition; a thriving economic trade partner right next door to them; a neighbor willing to provide them with medical care and technology and education; another several neighbors with a thriving, near identical culture to assist them and an entire Arab world to support their rights to their religious places.

Do you know what they DON'T have? They don't have the WILL to take all those opportunities and turn them into something useful and productive. And they don't have that because they keep telling themselves, and the world keeps telling them, that they have nothing and its all the fault of the Jews.

Do you know who had nothing? Really, really had nothing? The Jewish people when they began returning in earnest to their homeland in the wake of the Shoah that murdered more than half of their total population. And the million Jewish people who were actual, real refugees with nothing more than what they could carry, having been deprived of their property, their wealth and all their belongings in Arab lands. That's nothing. And look what they built from nothing in 70 years!

So I don't buy your, "but the poor Arab Palestinians have nothing".

I am stating facts, you putting a lot more into it than what I said. I am not saying it was started any differently than Jordan et al, what I am saying is from day one it was a mixture of cultures, ethnicities and religions. Are you denying this?

And no, the military force was not just self defense. They were fighting the British, not just the Arabs, andbombed open markets, trains and public places during the course of all this. There were plenty atrocities all around.

When the Palestinians fled or were forced out off there villages, they too had nothing and many still don’t because their Arab allies refused to absorb them and kept them in refugee camps. So yes. Poor Palestinians.

 

[Coyote]

Israel may have been FOUNDED as a state for the Jewish people but it was placed smack dab on top a plethora of religious and ethnic people already living there.

Oh come on. Now you are just parroting the same sound bytes Tinmore uses all the time.

Are you saying that indigenous or long-term peoples have no right to reclaim their homeland? That once a land is invaded, conquered and colonized that the existing peoples have no rights?! That if you live there -- its yours? Cool. Then Israel conquered the shit out of that place and they live there and its theirs now.

You are literally the last person on this board with even a shred of balanced thinking. Please don't give in to the simple sound bytes.

Look Shusha, it isn't a sound byte. The region that is now the nation of Israel was inhabited by a variety of groups, groups that currently STILL live there: Demographics of Israel

They didn't suddenly appear after Israel established it's nationhood. The Jewish people established their state in the midst of a multi-cultural/multi-ethnic/multi-religious region that included Jews. That is not a sound byte that is an acceptance of realty.

I am saying nothing about invading, colonizing yada yada yada. So don't put words in my mouth. But pretending that what I said isn't so is ignoring history.

The Jewish people established their State in their homeland. That was the reason and purpose of it. And Israel has every right to found its State based on its own culture in its own homeland.

No one is denying the facts that other ethnic groups live there. The reason I label it a sound byte is because it is a simplistic demand that the Jewish people accommodate those ethnic groups to their own detriment -- a demand made of no other people. The Jewish people have accommodated the Arab Palestinian people more than any other liberation movement in the world has EVER accommodated an invading or competing culture despite the fact that the Arabs are insistent on trying to erase every scrap and ounce of Jewish culture, existence and history in the Jewish homeland and continue to insist on religious replacement theology as well. What normally happens when a territory is broken up through liberation movements (especially violent ones) into independent States is a population exchange and relatively homogeneous new States with small minorities of other groups.

BUT, and in point of fact on this very thread, the Arab Palestinians continue to insist on "the river to the sea".

No one is demanding the Jewish people accommodate people to their own detriment but they should respect them, respect their cultures and heritage as part of the new national whole. And YES I agree they do a pretty decent job, certainly better than their neighbors.

It really sounds like you are trying to justify forced expulsions because ultimately THAT is what these population exchanges are.

 

[fncceo]

Israel may have been FOUNDED as a state for the Jewish people but it was placed smack dab on top a plethora of religious and ethnic people already living there.

Oh come on. Now you are just parroting the same sound bytes Tinmore uses all the time.

Are you saying that indigenous or long-term peoples have no right to reclaim their homeland? That once a land is invaded, conquered and colonized that the existing peoples have no rights?! That if you live there -- its yours? Cool. Then Israel conquered the shit out of that place and they live there and its theirs now.

You are literally the last person on this board with even a shred of balanced thinking. Please don't give in to the simple sound bytes.

Look Shusha, it isn't a sound byte. The region that is now the nation of Israel was inhabited by a variety of groups, groups that currently STILL live there: Demographics of Israel

They didn't suddenly appear after Israel established it's nationhood. The Jewish people established their state in the midst of a multi-cultural/multi-ethnic/multi-religious region that included Jews. That is not a sound byte that is an acceptance of realty.

I am saying nothing about invading, colonizing yada yada yada. So don't put words in my mouth. But pretending that what I said isn't so is ignoring history.

The Jewish people established their State in their homeland. That was the reason and purpose of it. And Israel has every right to found its State based on its own culture in its own homeland.

No one is denying the facts that other ethnic groups live there. The reason I label it a sound byte is because it is a simplistic demand that the Jewish people accommodate those ethnic groups to their own detriment -- a demand made of no other people. The Jewish people have accommodated the Arab Palestinian people more than any other liberation movement in the world has EVER accommodated an invading or competing culture despite the fact that the Arabs are insistent on trying to erase every scrap and ounce of Jewish culture, existence and history in the Jewish homeland and continue to insist on religious replacement theology as well. What normally happens when a territory is broken up through liberation movements (especially violent ones) into independent States is a population exchange and relatively homogeneous new States with small minorities of other groups.

BUT, and in point of fact on this very thread, the Arab Palestinians continue to insist on "the river to the sea".

No one is demanding the Jewish people accommodate people to their own detriment but they should respect them, respect their cultures and heritage as part of the new national whole. And YES I agree they do a pretty decent job, certainly better than their neighbors.

It really sounds like you are trying to justify forced expulsions because ultimately THAT is what these population exchanges are.

What gives you reason to believe that Jewish Israelis don't value Arab culture? Israelis have embraced Arab food, Arab music, Arab film and literature, in a way no other people have.

The Arab population of Israel is the largest Arab population outside of an Arab state.

 

[Shusha]

I am stating facts, you putting a lot more into it than what I said.

You are stating facts for the purpose of making a point. If I've misunderstood the point, and I don't in any way think I have, please clarify.

what I am saying is from day one it was a mixture of cultures, ethnicities and religions. Are you denying this?

No. And I said that in my post. However, please note that your starting date of "mixture of cultures, ethnicities and religions" deliberately creates the illusion of acceptance of this mixture of cultures, formed from centuries of invasion, conquest and colonization, only to reject it when the Jewish people take it back. You can't have it both ways. If conquest, invasion and colonization are permissible and result in a new mixture then, its permissible and results in a new mixture now, as it ever was. The problem is that you want to change the rules mid-game and make it permissible then and not permissible now.

And no, the military force was not just self defense. They were fighting the British, not just the Arabs, andbombed open markets, trains and public places during the course of all this. There were plenty atrocities all around.

There were atrocities committed by Jewish organizations at various times. I am not arguing that. And the bombing of markets, trains and public places is in no way justifiable or defensible. But there was no invasion by a Jewish military force. The Jewish people did not use military force to conquer the territory. Any military force was developed specifically to defend their existing legal rights.

When the Palestinians fled or were forced out off there villages, they too had nothing and many still don’t because their Arab allies refused to absorb them and kept them in refugee camps. So yes. Poor Palestinians.

But in the 70 years since the Jewish people had nothing, they have accomplished MUCH. And in the 70 years since the Arab Palestinians who had nothing have accomplished -- NOTHING. And you know that you, and everyone else on Team Palestine is going to say, yeah but its the Jews fault. No. Its not the Jews fault. It is the Arabs fault for not investing in their refugees. And it is the Arab Palestinians fault for not making something from their nothing.

 

[Coyote]

I am stating facts, you putting a lot more into it than what I said.

You are stating facts for the purpose of making a point. If I've misunderstood the point, and I don't in any way think I have, please clarify.

The point I was making was in response to a remark you had made:

Second, Israel's founding was SPECIFICALLY to address the self-determination of the Jewish people. It was not intended to be a multi-ethnic, multi-religious state -- it was specifically designed to the be the ONE State in the world where Jewish culture took precedence. ​

It might have been, but was founded in an area with a diverse array of cultures already existing there and created a preferred class of people.

what I am saying is from day one it was a mixture of cultures, ethnicities and religions. Are you denying this?

No. And I said that in my post. However, please note that your starting date of "mixture of cultures, ethnicities and religions" deliberately creates the illusion of acceptance of this mixture of cultures, formed from centuries of invasion, conquest and colonization, only to reject it when the Jewish people take it back. You can't have it both ways. If conquest, invasion and colonization are permissible and result in a new mixture then, its permissible and results in a new mixture now, as it ever was. The problem is that you want to change the rules mid-game and make it permissible then and not permissible now.

What do you mean by “starting date”? The area has always been rich in cultural diversity and I don’t have any issue with it continuing in that way. I am not the one who seems to be insisting only one culture matters. Maybe I am misunderstanding you.

And no, the military force was not just self defense. They were fighting the British, not just the Arabs, andbombed open markets, trains and public places during the course of all this. There were plenty atrocities all around.

There were atrocities committed by Jewish organizations at various times. I am not arguing that. And the bombing of markets, trains and public places is in no way justifiable or defensible. But there was no invasion by a Jewish military force. The Jewish people did not use military force to conquer the territory. Any military force was developed specifically to defend their existing legal rights.

When the Palestinians fled or were forced out off there villages, they too had nothing and many still don’t because their Arab allies refused to absorb them and kept them in refugee camps. So yes. Poor Palestinians.

But in the 70 years since the Jewish people had nothing, they have accomplished MUCH. And in the 70 years since the Arab Palestinians who had nothing have accomplished -- NOTHING. And you know that you, and everyone else on Team Palestine is going to say, yeah but its the Jews fault. No. Its not the Jews fault. It is the Arabs fault for not investing in their refugees. And it is the Arab Palestinians fault for not making something from their nothing.

Seriously? When I have I ever said that? It is a lot of people’s fault including the Palestinians themselves.

 

[Shusha]

No one is demanding the Jewish people accommodate people to their own detriment

Yes. They are. Do you want examples?

but they should respect them, respect their cultures and heritage as part of the new national whole. And YES I agree they do a pretty decent job, certainly better than their neighbors.

Yeah. They do an exceptional job. They do a better job than literally any other nation on the planet and in history. They DO respect Arab culture and Arab religion and Arab heritage -- even to the point where they RESTRICT their own freedoms and rights in order to accommodate their Arab citizens because those Arab citizens can't even SHARE a holy place that they STOLE with the original owners. What other culture DOES that? Other cultures blow up monuments and holy places that don't suit them. Can you name a single other culture in the world which deliberately denied its own people universal, legal and moral rights in order to accommodate another culture, let alone a usurping culture? It is INSANE to demand that the Jewish people "do better" with respecting Arab Palestinians and their cultures and their heritage. Compared to WHO? And that is before we even begin to discuss reciprocity in that matter. Where is the respect for Jewish culture in the Arab world? Are you kidding me? You say they do a decent job, yet demand they do more. While at the same time insisting that Arab Palestinians, and Arabs in general, have "nothing" and therefore lack an ability to "do more" or "be something other than nothing".

It really sounds like you are trying to justify forced expulsions because ultimately THAT is what these population exchanges are.

On the contrary -- I'm saying that this is the NORM in the past. What you are trying to justify is that the NORM is awesome until...well, Jews. If we are going to apply the NORM -- then there wouldn't BE Arabs in Israel. The whole reason this is still a conflict is because the Jewish people chose not to expel their Arabs. While every other Arab nation did choose to expel their Jews. That is THE norm, after all. That is what the Arab Palestinians demand and for them even that is not enough! I am trying to point out the standards which are applied to Israel which are applied to no other State. Ever.

FFS, just look at the "normative" global position on Jewish "settlers". Make no mistake, its ethnic cleansing. Jewish people are not allowed to live here. Because, Jews. Because Arab countries have a RIGHT to live Jew-free. Its INSANE that people think this way.

To be clear, I am against forced expulsion in principle. BUT in the conflict between expulsion and having a hostile, violent population in your midst, threatening your citizens, I'll take expulsion any day. Evil, yes. Necessary evil, damn yes. And I think that is a GOOD thing. You want self-determination? Yep? Awesome! You should have it. You want to stay on the exact plot of land that your ancestors bought? Cool. You should have it. But you don't get to have both. You have to choose. And its a personal decision. Up to each individual. And they should have the choice. But if they insist that they should have their plot of land while violently fighting against the self-determination of another people -- expulsion it is. The alternative is absolutely unconscionable.

And! If the Arab Palestinian people think that they can't POSSIBLY live in the presence of Jews, (because ewwww). I am ALSO okay with that. For the same reason. I'll take expulsion any day over having to worry about my safety and the lives of my children because some people think its okay to murder Jews if they are on the wrong side of some imaginary line.

But you are trying to argue both sides of the fence. You argue that ethnic cleansing is abhorrent while simultaneously suggesting that Jews must be forbidden to live in certain places.

 

[Shusha]

... created a preferred class of people.

No, it did not.

What do you mean by “starting date”? The area has always been rich in cultural diversity ...

No. The area has NOT always been rich in cultural diversity. Cultural diversity is a consequence of invasion, conquest and colonization. The cultural diversity was caused by other peoples inflicting their will upon the indigenous inhabitants -- the Jewish people. And the indigenous peoples were able (miraculously!) to maintain their culture both inside the territory and in the Diaspora.

 

[Coyote]

No one is demanding the Jewish people accommodate people to their own detriment

Yes. They are. Do you want examples?

but they should respect them, respect their cultures and heritage as part of the new national whole. And YES I agree they do a pretty decent job, certainly better than their neighbors.

Yeah. They do an exceptional job. They do a better job than literally any other nation on the planet and in history. They DO respect Arab culture and Arab religion and Arab heritage -- even to the point where they RESTRICT their own freedoms and rights in order to accommodate their Arab citizens because those Arab citizens can't even SHARE a holy place that they STOLE with the original owners. What other culture DOES that? Other cultures blow up monuments and holy places that don't suit them. Can you name a single other culture in the world which deliberately denied its own people universal, legal and moral rights in order to accommodate another culture, let alone a usurping culture? It is INSANE to demand that the Jewish people "do better" with respecting Arab Palestinians and their cultures and their heritage. Compared to WHO? And that is before we even begin to discuss reciprocity in that matter. Where is the respect for Jewish culture in the Arab world? Are you kidding me? You say they do a decent job, yet demand they do more. While at the same time insisting that Arab Palestinians, and Arabs in general, have "nothing" and therefore lack an ability to "do more" or "be something other than nothing".

It really sounds like you are trying to justify forced expulsions because ultimately THAT is what these population exchanges are.

On the contrary -- I'm saying that this is the NORM in the past. What you are trying to justify is that the NORM is awesome until...well, Jews. If we are going to apply the NORM -- then there wouldn't BE Arabs in Israel. The whole reason this is still a conflict is because the Jewish people chose not to expel their Arabs. While every other Arab nation did choose to expel their Jews. That is THE norm, after all. That is what the Arab Palestinians demand and for them even that is not enough! I am trying to point out the standards which are applied to Israel which are applied to no other State. Ever.

FFS, just look at the "normative" global position on Jewish "settlers". Make no mistake, its ethnic cleansing. Jewish people are not allowed to live here. Because, Jews. Because Arab countries have a RIGHT to live Jew-free. Its INSANE that people think this way.

To be clear, I am against forced expulsion in principle. BUT in the conflict between expulsion and having a hostile, violent population in your midst, threatening your citizens, I'll take expulsion any day. Evil, yes. Necessary evil, damn yes. And I think that is a GOOD thing. You want self-determination? Yep? Awesome! You should have it. You want to stay on the exact plot of land that your ancestors bought? Cool. You should have it. But you don't get to have both. You have to choose. And its a personal decision. Up to each individual. And they should have the choice. But if they insist that they should have their plot of land while violently fighting against the self-determination of another people -- expulsion it is. The alternative is absolutely unconscionable.

And! If the Arab Palestinian people think that they can't POSSIBLY live in the presence of Jews, (because ewwww). I am ALSO okay with that. For the same reason. I'll take expulsion any day over having to worry about my safety and the lives of my children because some people think its okay to murder Jews if they are on the wrong side of some imaginary line.

But you are trying to argue both sides of the fence. You argue that ethnic cleansing is abhorrent while simultaneously suggesting that Jews must be forbidden to live in certain places.

You are putting a hell of a lot in my mouth that I did not say and asking me to defend positions I HAVE NOT TAKEN!

Where in the hell have I argued that Jews be forbidden from living in certain places?

You are damned right I oppose ethnic cleansing and forced expulsions! It has created tragedy and multigenerational displacement, it has destroyed cultures and people’s heritage INCLUDING that of the Jewish people!

 

[Coyote]

... created a preferred class of people.

No, it did not.

What do you mean by “starting date”? The area has always been rich in cultural diversity ...

No. The area has NOT always been rich in cultural diversity. Cultural diversity is a consequence of invasion, conquest and colonization. The cultural diversity was caused by other peoples inflicting their will upon the indigenous inhabitants -- the Jewish people. And the indigenous peoples were able (miraculously!) to maintain their culture both inside the territory and in the Diaspora.

Actually...I would disagree. The region has always been a crossroads of conquests, migrations and trade. Who did the Jewish people conquer and displace in their time? Are you saying it was fine when the Jewish people did so and imposed their culture but not succeeding people’s thousands of years ago?

Cultural diversity is not necessarily another people inflicting their will upon the original inhabitants. It is often multilateral, through trade, through natural migrations of people’s, causing cultures to evolve and change. You don’t want to see that with the Jewish people and you want to claim it is all conquest and force.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

So Coyote using your argument why are you not harping on Serbia to change their evil ways?

 

[P F Tinmore]

No one is demanding the Jewish people accommodate people to their own detriment

Yes. They are. Do you want examples?

but they should respect them, respect their cultures and heritage as part of the new national whole. And YES I agree they do a pretty decent job, certainly better than their neighbors.

Yeah. They do an exceptional job. They do a better job than literally any other nation on the planet and in history. They DO respect Arab culture and Arab religion and Arab heritage -- even to the point where they RESTRICT their own freedoms and rights in order to accommodate their Arab citizens because those Arab citizens can't even SHARE a holy place that they STOLE with the original owners. What other culture DOES that? Other cultures blow up monuments and holy places that don't suit them. Can you name a single other culture in the world which deliberately denied its own people universal, legal and moral rights in order to accommodate another culture, let alone a usurping culture? It is INSANE to demand that the Jewish people "do better" with respecting Arab Palestinians and their cultures and their heritage. Compared to WHO? And that is before we even begin to discuss reciprocity in that matter. Where is the respect for Jewish culture in the Arab world? Are you kidding me? You say they do a decent job, yet demand they do more. While at the same time insisting that Arab Palestinians, and Arabs in general, have "nothing" and therefore lack an ability to "do more" or "be something other than nothing".

It really sounds like you are trying to justify forced expulsions because ultimately THAT is what these population exchanges are.

On the contrary -- I'm saying that this is the NORM in the past. What you are trying to justify is that the NORM is awesome until...well, Jews. If we are going to apply the NORM -- then there wouldn't BE Arabs in Israel. The whole reason this is still a conflict is because the Jewish people chose not to expel their Arabs. While every other Arab nation did choose to expel their Jews. That is THE norm, after all. That is what the Arab Palestinians demand and for them even that is not enough! I am trying to point out the standards which are applied to Israel which are applied to no other State. Ever.

FFS, just look at the "normative" global position on Jewish "settlers". Make no mistake, its ethnic cleansing. Jewish people are not allowed to live here. Because, Jews. Because Arab countries have a RIGHT to live Jew-free. Its INSANE that people think this way.

To be clear, I am against forced expulsion in principle. BUT in the conflict between expulsion and having a hostile, violent population in your midst, threatening your citizens, I'll take expulsion any day. Evil, yes. Necessary evil, damn yes. And I think that is a GOOD thing. You want self-determination? Yep? Awesome! You should have it. You want to stay on the exact plot of land that your ancestors bought? Cool. You should have it. But you don't get to have both. You have to choose. And its a personal decision. Up to each individual. And they should have the choice. But if they insist that they should have their plot of land while violently fighting against the self-determination of another people -- expulsion it is. The alternative is absolutely unconscionable.

And! If the Arab Palestinian people think that they can't POSSIBLY live in the presence of Jews, (because ewwww). I am ALSO okay with that. For the same reason. I'll take expulsion any day over having to worry about my safety and the lives of my children because some people think its okay to murder Jews if they are on the wrong side of some imaginary line.

But you are trying to argue both sides of the fence. You argue that ethnic cleansing is abhorrent while simultaneously suggesting that Jews must be forbidden to live in certain places.

You are putting a hell of a lot in my mouth that I did not say and asking me to defend positions I HAVE NOT TAKEN!

Where in the hell have I argued that Jews be forbidden from living in certain places?

You are damned right I oppose ethnic cleansing and forced expulsions! It has created tragedy and multigenerational displacement, it has destroyed cultures and people’s heritage INCLUDING that of the Jewish people!

You are putting a hell of a lot in my mouth that I did not say and asking me to defend positions I HAVE NOT TAKEN!

Indeed, they do that to me all of the time.

 

[Shusha]

You are putting a hell of a lot in my mouth that I did not say and asking me to defend positions I HAVE NOT TAKEN!

Where in the hell have I argued that Jews be forbidden from living in certain places?

Feel free to clarify at any time. I'm pretty sure you have argued that Jewish "settlers" should not live on one side of the Green Line. But feel absolutely free to correct me if I am mistaken in that.

 

[Shusha]

Actually...I would disagree. The region has always been a crossroads of conquests, migrations and trade. Who did the Jewish people conquer and displace in their time? Are you saying it was fine when the Jewish people did so and imposed their culture but not succeeding people’s thousands of years ago?

Archaeological records demonstrate that the Jewish people developed in situ as a natural growth of the existing peoples. There is absolutely NO evidence of conquest or invasion in the sense of a culture developed in another place and moved onto another territory. The Jewish people originated in the place they claim as a homeland. The Jewish people and culture did not originate elsewhere and migrate. If you have evidence that the Jewish people developed ELSEWHERE and then transferred their culture from that elsewhere into the territory in question, by all means BRING IT!

Cultural diversity is not necessarily another people inflicting their will upon the original inhabitants. It is often multilateral, through trade, through natural migrations of people’s, causing cultures to evolve and change.

Sure. Are you arguing that THAT is what happened to the Jewish people? That it was a multilateral idea that their Temple was destroyed? Twice. That the introduction of Babylonians, Assyrians,, Hellenists, Romans, European Christianity and then Arabic Islam was a mutual decision with the Jewish people? That the Jewish people agreed to it because, yeah, seems like it will work to everyone's mutual satisfaction?