What Happened to Church?

[Cecilie1200]

Why?

Why not? Why all the hardship?

Is it really so alien a concept to you that the more worth having something is, the more it is worth working for and investing yourself in?

Well, you're a leftist, so it probably IS alien to you to think of working for something, rather than expecting it to be handed to you.

Naw, god should be effortless and free, sounds like a better idea.

It sounds to me that you want "God Lite." All of the good and none of the less pleasant consequences. You want a God that gives the you emotional comfort of believing in God and none of that messy baggage of being virtuous. You want a tame God. You want a God you can switch on and off when it suits you. All the thrills of religion and none of the cost. Your "God Lite" is the greatest achievement of wishful thinking the world has ever seen.

My idea of god is nicer than your god, does that piss you off?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Why not? Why all the hardship?

Is it really so alien a concept to you that the more worth having something is, the more it is worth working for and investing yourself in?

Well, you're a leftist, so it probably IS alien to you to think of working for something, rather than expecting it to be handed to you.

Naw, god should be effortless and free, sounds like a better idea.

It sounds to me that you want "God Lite." All of the good and none of the less pleasant consequences. You want a God that gives the you emotional comfort of believing in God and none of that messy baggage of being virtuous. You want a tame God. You want a God you can switch on and off when it suits you. All the thrills of religion and none of the cost. Your "God Lite" is the greatest achievement of wishful thinking the world has ever seen.

My idea of god is nicer than your god, does that piss you off?

Not at all. Your idea of God is illogical. Besides I can't imagine a God that could possibly be nicer than one who was born into this world to testify to the truth and suffer an agonizing death for us. Your problem is that you lack complete knowledge in your understanding of God.

Leftists can never comprehend the fact that the truth doesn't have to be "nice"; it just has to be true.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Why not? Why all the hardship?

Is it really so alien a concept to you that the more worth having something is, the more it is worth working for and investing yourself in?

Well, you're a leftist, so it probably IS alien to you to think of working for something, rather than expecting it to be handed to you.

Naw, god should be effortless and free, sounds like a better idea.

It sounds to me that you want "God Lite." All of the good and none of the less pleasant consequences. You want a God that gives the you emotional comfort of believing in God and none of that messy baggage of being virtuous. You want a tame God. You want a God you can switch on and off when it suits you. All the thrills of religion and none of the cost. Your "God Lite" is the greatest achievement of wishful thinking the world has ever seen.

My idea of god is nicer than your god, does that piss you off?

It does nothing to us except reinforce what has happened to the church. Instead of pushing back against that false teaching, the church has absorbed the desire for an easy religion that doesn't demand anything from the person and tried to become what people want.

Obviously, it's a false teaching and if that's all you want, go find a social group to feel good in that caters to you, but it's not Christianity.

Very good point. That's why the first criterion I look for is ALWAYS doctrinal faithfulness to the written Word. If a church can't understand that a faith designed for living in an uncomfortable universe is ALSO going to be uncomfortable, they have nothing to teach me.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Is it really so alien a concept to you that the more worth having something is, the more it is worth working for and investing yourself in?

Well, you're a leftist, so it probably IS alien to you to think of working for something, rather than expecting it to be handed to you.

Naw, god should be effortless and free, sounds like a better idea.

It sounds to me that you want "God Lite." All of the good and none of the less pleasant consequences. You want a God that gives the you emotional comfort of believing in God and none of that messy baggage of being virtuous. You want a tame God. You want a God you can switch on and off when it suits you. All the thrills of religion and none of the cost. Your "God Lite" is the greatest achievement of wishful thinking the world has ever seen.

My idea of god is nicer than your god, does that piss you off?

Not at all. Your idea of God is illogical. Besides I can't imagine a God that could possibly be nicer than one who was born into this world to testify to the truth and suffer an agonizing death for us. Your problem is that you lack complete knowledge in your understanding of God.

I understand that god made everything, including evil, cancer and deformed babies.

You understand nothing, because you think God is a cosmic vending machine who can be expected to spit out your ideal, comfy circumstances on demand.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Is it really so alien a concept to you that the more worth having something is, the more it is worth working for and investing yourself in?

Well, you're a leftist, so it probably IS alien to you to think of working for something, rather than expecting it to be handed to you.

Naw, god should be effortless and free, sounds like a better idea.

It sounds to me that you want "God Lite." All of the good and none of the less pleasant consequences. You want a God that gives the you emotional comfort of believing in God and none of that messy baggage of being virtuous. You want a tame God. You want a God you can switch on and off when it suits you. All the thrills of religion and none of the cost. Your "God Lite" is the greatest achievement of wishful thinking the world has ever seen.

My idea of god is nicer than your god, does that piss you off?

It does nothing to us except reinforce what has happened to the church. Instead of pushing back against that false teaching, the church has absorbed the desire for an easy religion that doesn't demand anything from the person and tried to become what people want.

Obviously, it's a false teaching and if that's all you want, go find a social group to feel good in that caters to you, but it's not Christianity.

You worship the hide n' seek god whom you have a hard time finding, so you study, you listen to explanations, and you generally just follow what someone else made up. God shouldn't have to be so hard, and it should be free because it doesn't need our money.

And now we're back to "Let's discuss how much I hate God, and how stooopid I think Christians are!"

 

[Cecilie1200]

Naw, god should be effortless and free, sounds like a better idea.

It sounds to me that you want "God Lite." All of the good and none of the less pleasant consequences. You want a God that gives the you emotional comfort of believing in God and none of that messy baggage of being virtuous. You want a tame God. You want a God you can switch on and off when it suits you. All the thrills of religion and none of the cost. Your "God Lite" is the greatest achievement of wishful thinking the world has ever seen.

My idea of god is nicer than your god, does that piss you off?

Not at all. Your idea of God is illogical. Besides I can't imagine a God that could possibly be nicer than one who was born into this world to testify to the truth and suffer an agonizing death for us. Your problem is that you lack complete knowledge in your understanding of God.

I understand that god made everything, including evil, cancer and deformed babies.

We’ve been over this a dozen times. Evil is not extant. Evil is the absence of good.

In Taz's case, "evil" is defined as "things I don't personally like".

 

[yiostheoy]

I went to a new church for the first time this morning (because I moved to a new city a few months back, and now I need to find a new church home), and I have to say I don't feel even remotely sufficiently churched.

Maybe I'm just really old-fashioned. I grew up in the same two churches throughout my life; in fact, my husband and I were married in one of them. They were both good-sized, but neither was a "mega-church", and it was not only possible to know everyone in the church, it was impossible NOT to. The services took upwards of two hours from start to finish, and they happened three times a week. When the service ended, there were often people still praying at the altars (this church doesn't even HAVE altars), and it took at least another hour for people to get done talking and interacting and head out the doors. The song service was inclusive; the entire congregation worshipping God through music together.

This service was over in an hour; the song service was the "worship team" - basically a music group - giving a performance with lights and videos on screens and a FOG MACHINE, for crying out loud. It was a lot more like going to a concert than anything interactive. Everyone was out the door in about fifteen minutes, the pastors (they apparently have a huge heirarchy of them) were nowhere in sight, and there was no effort made to even identify new attendees, much less meet them and make them feel welcome. The sermon was still on-point in the Word of God, and they don't seem to have edited out the "icky" parts so many churches do - y'know, references to the Crucifixion, blood, death, Hell, all that uncomfortable stuff - but I have to wonder how you're supposed to learn and grow and connect with the Christian community and draw closer to God when an hour a week of listening to other people perform is all the effort you put into it.

I attend church about twice or so every year, and I immediately feel sufficiently churched at that moment, at least for another several months.

It's only when I miss church for several years in a row that I no longer feel sufficiently churched.

 

[Cecilie1200]

It sounds to me that you want "God Lite." All of the good and none of the less pleasant consequences. You want a God that gives the you emotional comfort of believing in God and none of that messy baggage of being virtuous. You want a tame God. You want a God you can switch on and off when it suits you. All the thrills of religion and none of the cost. Your "God Lite" is the greatest achievement of wishful thinking the world has ever seen.

My idea of god is nicer than your god, does that piss you off?

Not at all. Your idea of God is illogical. Besides I can't imagine a God that could possibly be nicer than one who was born into this world to testify to the truth and suffer an agonizing death for us. Your problem is that you lack complete knowledge in your understanding of God.

I understand that god made everything, including evil, cancer and deformed babies.

We’ve been over this a dozen times. Evil is not extant. Evil is the absence of good.

But didn't god make the universe and the conditions were there at the beginning so that evil would flourish? Or something like that?

God made the universe with the conditions there at the beginning for humans to choose between good and evil. Free will is pointless if you don't have the option of being wrong.

 

[Cecilie1200]

It sounds to me that you want "God Lite." All of the good and none of the less pleasant consequences. You want a God that gives the you emotional comfort of believing in God and none of that messy baggage of being virtuous. You want a tame God. You want a God you can switch on and off when it suits you. All the thrills of religion and none of the cost. Your "God Lite" is the greatest achievement of wishful thinking the world has ever seen.

My idea of god is nicer than your god, does that piss you off?

It does nothing to us except reinforce what has happened to the church. Instead of pushing back against that false teaching, the church has absorbed the desire for an easy religion that doesn't demand anything from the person and tried to become what people want.

Obviously, it's a false teaching and if that's all you want, go find a social group to feel good in that caters to you, but it's not Christianity.

You worship the hide n' seek god whom you have a hard time finding, so you study, you listen to explanations, and you generally just follow what someone else made up. God shouldn't have to be so hard, and it should be free because it doesn't need our money.

God isn’t hard to find.

Then why are so many people not finding your god? (Including all the people who have found a different god).

Because, like you, they're too busy congratulating themselves on how "superior" they are and how they therefore don't need to look for Him.

 

[yiostheoy]

How much did they hit you up for that?

A week of penitence.

Did Moonglow get banned again ?!

Was it because of more photos of his naked buttt ??

 

[Cecilie1200]

My idea of god is nicer than your god, does that piss you off?

Not at all. Your idea of God is illogical. Besides I can't imagine a God that could possibly be nicer than one who was born into this world to testify to the truth and suffer an agonizing death for us. Your problem is that you lack complete knowledge in your understanding of God.

I understand that god made everything, including evil, cancer and deformed babies.

We’ve been over this a dozen times. Evil is not extant. Evil is the absence of good.

But didn't god make the universe and the conditions were there at the beginning so that evil would flourish? Or something like that?

What part of evil is not extant did you not comprehend?

Probably the word "extant".

 

[yiostheoy]

My idea of god is nicer than your god, does that piss you off?

Not at all. Your idea of God is illogical. Besides I can't imagine a God that could possibly be nicer than one who was born into this world to testify to the truth and suffer an agonizing death for us. Your problem is that you lack complete knowledge in your understanding of God.

I understand that god made everything, including evil, cancer and deformed babies.

We’ve been over this a dozen times. Evil is not extant. Evil is the absence of good.

But didn't god make the universe and the conditions were there at the beginning so that evil would flourish? Or something like that?

God made the universe with the conditions there at the beginning for humans to choose between good and evil. Free will is pointless if you don't have the option of being wrong.

It is an interesting question to try to resolve WHY did God create the Universe, the galaxies, and the Earth ??

My hypothesis about this is the classic Lonely God theory -- He/She/It wanted to have friends.

 

[Cecilie1200]

It does nothing to us except reinforce what has happened to the church. Instead of pushing back against that false teaching, the church has absorbed the desire for an easy religion that doesn't demand anything from the person and tried to become what people want.

Obviously, it's a false teaching and if that's all you want, go find a social group to feel good in that caters to you, but it's not Christianity.

You worship the hide n' seek god whom you have a hard time finding, so you study, you listen to explanations, and you generally just follow what someone else made up. God shouldn't have to be so hard, and it should be free because it doesn't need our money.

God isn’t hard to find.

Then why are so many people not finding your god? (Including all the people who have found a different god).

Because like you they have never looked.

Oh come on, everyone is looking for answers, and some people have found other gods. Actually, your god is in the minority.

Looking for answers is not the same thing as looking for the RIGHT answers. All too many people are looking for the answers that they WANT to be true.

 

[Cecilie1200]

God isn’t hard to find.

Then why are so many people not finding your god? (Including all the people who have found a different god).

Because like you they have never looked.

Oh come on, everyone is looking for answers, and some people have found other gods. Actually, your god is in the minority.

And they are better off for that too. There is only one God. It’s not like there’s a smorgasbord of Gods out there. He doesn’t care what name you call him. He answers to many.

So your god gives out 72 virgins like Allah does? Does your god tell you to kill Jews and Christians?

Get. Back. On. Topic.

You will not be hijacking this thread like you try to do with every religious thread.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I went to a new church for the first time this morning (because I moved to a new city a few months back, and now I need to find a new church home), and I have to say I don't feel even remotely sufficiently churched.

Maybe I'm just really old-fashioned. I grew up in the same two churches throughout my life; in fact, my husband and I were married in one of them. They were both good-sized, but neither was a "mega-church", and it was not only possible to know everyone in the church, it was impossible NOT to. The services took upwards of two hours from start to finish, and they happened three times a week. When the service ended, there were often people still praying at the altars (this church doesn't even HAVE altars), and it took at least another hour for people to get done talking and interacting and head out the doors. The song service was inclusive; the entire congregation worshipping God through music together.

This service was over in an hour; the song service was the "worship team" - basically a music group - giving a performance with lights and videos on screens and a FOG MACHINE, for crying out loud. It was a lot more like going to a concert than anything interactive. Everyone was out the door in about fifteen minutes, the pastors (they apparently have a huge heirarchy of them) were nowhere in sight, and there was no effort made to even identify new attendees, much less meet them and make them feel welcome. The sermon was still on-point in the Word of God, and they don't seem to have edited out the "icky" parts so many churches do - y'know, references to the Crucifixion, blood, death, Hell, all that uncomfortable stuff - but I have to wonder how you're supposed to learn and grow and connect with the Christian community and draw closer to God when an hour a week of listening to other people perform is all the effort you put into it.

I'm agnostic, we only go to services on holidays and special events shows anyway, but our experiences have been that the larger churches can be very impersonal at first, but like attending any large group functions it takes a while to get to know people, and I work with a lot of the charity functions here locally, food banks and the like and meet a lot of people through that, so maybe just stat joining groups, ignore first impressions for a while and then decide.

Church is not a social club, and I am not looking for a social club. In truth, if I didn't know that growing and developing in my faith requires interaction with other believers, I'd avoid the whole concept of church.

Church serves multiple very important and specific functions, and this thread is about the fact that "modern trends" in churches do not fulfill any of them.

Some of my best friends are obnoxious asshats in real life, so don't be a snob. Christians aren't required to live like dumpster divers and homeless beggars, and their churches don't have to be held in ruined crappy buildings. I work with churches big and small, and don't find a lot of differences in character of the people attending either, except for the insurance salesmen and the like who are only there to 'network'.

No one suggested "ruined, crappy buildings". But again, Christians attend church for specific purposes, and form follows function. The kind of churches I'm having a problem with are designed for purposes other than the ones they're supposed to be.

Character of the people is not the issue, since Christianity and church attendance are not ever supposed to be about looking at other people, anyway. Again, I am not looking for a social club.

 

[Marion Morrison]

I went to a new church for the first time this morning (because I moved to a new city a few months back, and now I need to find a new church home), and I have to say I don't feel even remotely sufficiently churched.

Maybe I'm just really old-fashioned. I grew up in the same two churches throughout my life; in fact, my husband and I were married in one of them. They were both good-sized, but neither was a "mega-church", and it was not only possible to know everyone in the church, it was impossible NOT to. The services took upwards of two hours from start to finish, and they happened three times a week. When the service ended, there were often people still praying at the altars (this church doesn't even HAVE altars), and it took at least another hour for people to get done talking and interacting and head out the doors. The song service was inclusive; the entire congregation worshipping God through music together.

This service was over in an hour; the song service was the "worship team" - basically a music group - giving a performance with lights and videos on screens and a FOG MACHINE, for crying out loud. It was a lot more like going to a concert than anything interactive. Everyone was out the door in about fifteen minutes, the pastors (they apparently have a huge heirarchy of them) were nowhere in sight, and there was no effort made to even identify new attendees, much less meet them and make them feel welcome. The sermon was still on-point in the Word of God, and they don't seem to have edited out the "icky" parts so many churches do - y'know, references to the Crucifixion, blood, death, Hell, all that uncomfortable stuff - but I have to wonder how you're supposed to learn and grow and connect with the Christian community and draw closer to God when an hour a week of listening to other people perform is all the effort you put into it.

Try the next church. Preferably one that adheres to the Word and Spirit of God with no theatrics. When I was a kid, I and my best friend went to about every church in the area. I determined the best local one was the Black M.E. (whatever that means) Baptist church.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Because like you they have never looked.

Oh come on, everyone is looking for answers, and some people have found other gods. Actually, your god is in the minority.

And they are better off for that too. There is only one God. It’s not like there’s a smorgasbord of Gods out there. He doesn’t care what name you call him. He answers to many.

So your god gives out 72 virgins like Allah does? Does your god tell you to kill Jews and Christians?

Only if you believe man is capable of understanding God, Taz. Is that what you believe?

Or is it possible that they are trying to use man’s understanding to relate to something man is incapable of understanding.

^^^^^ MASSIVE MUMBO JUMBO ALERT! (it happens when you're stumped )

The universe and God are both too big and complex to fit into human understanding. Especially when the human in question is you.

Sorry if pointing out that you're one small, short-lived organism with a limited intelligence and comprehension in a vast cosmos is too "mumbo-jumbo" for you.

 

[Cecilie1200]

My first time attending any church service was when I about 16.
I attended several churches of different denominations for ~a year.

While most seemed nice and inviting, they went against what my parents taught me,

I was taught to accept and respect the differences people often have. I stopped going after thinking they were asking me to dismiss what I’ve been taught.

Well, my family weer Baptists, so we are used to arguing all the time, not being an organized sect. I have no problem attending anywhere, and do when asked by friends, from Reformed synagogues to Catholic midnight Christmas masses to Pentacostal Madness any night of the week. Personally the Jewish synagogue has the best musicians and vocalists, so we always accept invites to go to that one, mostly 'folk' music and some classical stuff, some 'traditional' Jewish songs, some sound great, some just annoying.

While I enjoy attending other people's churches and learning more about the faiths that inform their lives, the point is not - again - socializing and enjoying the performances.

Finding a church home and attending it regularly is about learning and developing understanding about the truth of the universe.

 

[yiostheoy]

Oh come on, everyone is looking for answers, and some people have found other gods. Actually, your god is in the minority.

And they are better off for that too. There is only one God. It’s not like there’s a smorgasbord of Gods out there. He doesn’t care what name you call him. He answers to many.

So your god gives out 72 virgins like Allah does? Does your god tell you to kill Jews and Christians?

Only if you believe man is capable of understanding God, Taz. Is that what you believe?

Or is it possible that they are trying to use man’s understanding to relate to something man is incapable of understanding.

^^^^^ MASSIVE MUMBO JUMBO ALERT! (it happens when you're stumped )

The universe and God are both too big and complex to fit into human understanding. Especially when the human in question is you.

Sorry if pointing out that you're one small, short-lived organism with a limited intelligence and comprehension in a vast cosmos is too "mumbo-jumbo" for you.

My explanation for all this vastness is that there is one God per Galaxy.

Thus there are probably about 200 billion God's in the Universe.

And since each galaxy has about 200 billion stars, with each star having probably 1 livable Earth, there are about 4 x 10[22] livable planets.

This further suggests there are 4 x 10[32] humanoids living in the Universe.

Math is the key to understanding.

Math and a good telescope.

4 x 10[32] = 4 followed by 32 zeroes.

400,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

 

[Cecilie1200]

You worship the hide n' seek god whom you have a hard time finding, so you study, you listen to explanations, and you generally just follow what someone else made up. God shouldn't have to be so hard, and it should be free because it doesn't need our money.

You're still trying to derail the thread. It's about what happened to the church, not the 535th time you've tried to convince yourself that God isn't real.

I asked you about your church and you wouldn't answer. So now, fuck off.

You're leaving the thread? Okay.

I'll get back to it: god should cost any money, making church a scam.

And, to stick with the thread topic, the church has watered down and weakened the message of the Gospel to the point that the gospel of prosperity and ease has gained traction. You're a prime example of that poison, wanting a God that expects nothing from you but gives you everything regardless. Down that road lies powerless, unfulfilling, false religion, not relationship.

As my Southern mother would say, you slobbered a bibful that time.

Seriously, excellent, concise post.