What If Us Atheists Are Right? Hmmmm...

[Anguille]

It's simply not true that all sources of faith suggest God wants or even cares that anyone believes in it.

Find me scripture from any religion that suggests that God does not want us to believe in him. (That doesn't mean to post sources from a Satanist website.)

The source of faith does not always come from scripture.

To wonder if it matters to God if anyone believes in it is not the same as saying that God does not want anyone to believe in it.

I don't know what Satanists believe but why would their beliefs not be acceptable to you in a discussion of the different ways God is perceived?

Do you really think no one has ever come to the conclusion that mere mortals are of such inconsequence to God that it doesn't even matter if they believe in god or not?

I am an atheist but if I did believe that a god existed, I am certain it would be occupied with far more important and fascinating things than to be bothered by whether humans believed in it or not, much less care if they worshipped it.

 

[BrianH]

It's simply not true that all sources of faith suggest God wants or even cares that anyone believes in it.

Find me scripture from any religion that suggests that God does not want us to believe in him. (That doesn't mean to post sources from a Satanist website.)

The source of faith does not always come from scripture.

To wonder if it matters to God if anyone believes in it is not the same as saying that God does not want anyone to believe in it.

I don't know what Satanists believe but why would their beliefs not be acceptable to you in a discussion of the different ways God is perceived?

Do you really think no one has ever come to the conclusion that mere mortals are of such inconsequence to God that it doesn't even matter if they believe in god or not?

I am an atheist but if I did believe that a god existed, I am certain it would be occupied with far more important and fascinating things than to be bothered by whether humans believed in it or not, much less care if they worshipped it.

You're beside the point...

1. My challenge to you was to find scriptures that suggest that God does not want to be believed in. I said nothing about faith stemming from scriptures. What I did say, was that compared in a whole, there is more to suggest that God wants to be believed in than not.

2. As far as Satanists, they believe in their "god" SATAN. Therefore the same does not apply. But in the same sense, in order to believe in Satan, you must believe in God, because it all stems from the same place. So even Satanists would believe in the existence of God.

3. You're doing the same thing the other guy is doing... your coming up with "what if's" with nothing to suggest you're "what if".

What if frogs had wings? Answer: They wouldn't hit their ass when them jumped.
But at the same time, there is nothing to suggest that frogs have wings, therefore I wouldn't believe that they do.

But this is beside the point, as well as the arguing about the existence of God. Many athiests on this board asked the question "What if athiests are right?" but then aren't satisfied with the "most" correct answer.

 

[Anguille]

Find me scripture from any religion that suggests that God does not want us to believe in him. (That doesn't mean to post sources from a Satanist website.)

The source of faith does not always come from scripture.

To wonder if it matters to God if anyone believes in it is not the same as saying that God does not want anyone to believe in it.

I don't know what Satanists believe but why would their beliefs not be acceptable to you in a discussion of the different ways God is perceived?

Do you really think no one has ever come to the conclusion that mere mortals are of such inconsequence to God that it doesn't even matter if they believe in god or not?

I am an atheist but if I did believe that a god existed, I am certain it would be occupied with far more important and fascinating things than to be bothered by whether humans believed in it or not, much less care if they worshipped it.

You're beside the point...

1. My challenge to you was to find scriptures that suggest that God does not want to be believed in. I said nothing about faith stemming from scriptures. What I did say, was that compared in a whole, there is more to suggest that God wants to be believed in than not.

This is what you said:

All sources of faith suggest that God WANTS you to believe in him,

Not "more to suggest", you said "all".

2. As far as Satanists, they believe in their "god" SATAN. Therefore the same does not apply. But in the same sense, in order to believe in Satan, you must believe in God, because it all stems from the same place. So even Satanists would believe in the existence of God.

But you still haven't proved that Satanists believe Satan cares if they believe in him.

3. You're doing the same thing the other guy is doing... your coming up with "what if's" with nothing to suggest you're "what if".

What if frogs had wings? Answer: They wouldn't hit their ass when them jumped.
But at the same time, there is nothing to suggest that frogs have wings, therefore I wouldn't believe that they do.

But this is beside the point, as well as the arguing about the existence of God. Many athiests on this board asked the question "What if athiests are right?" but then aren't satisfied with the "most" correct answer.

? most correct answer?

It seems to me that you think all religions resemble your own.

 

[BrianH]

The source of faith does not always come from scripture.

To wonder if it matters to God if anyone believes in it is not the same as saying that God does not want anyone to believe in it.

I don't know what Satanists believe but why would their beliefs not be acceptable to you in a discussion of the different ways God is perceived?

Do you really think no one has ever come to the conclusion that mere mortals are of such inconsequence to God that it doesn't even matter if they believe in god or not?

I am an atheist but if I did believe that a god existed, I am certain it would be occupied with far more important and fascinating things than to be bothered by whether humans believed in it or not, much less care if they worshipped it.

You're beside the point...

1. My challenge to you was to find scriptures that suggest that God does not want to be believed in. I said nothing about faith stemming from scriptures. What I did say, was that compared in a whole, there is more to suggest that God wants to be believed in than not.

This is what you said:
Not "more to suggest", you said "all".

2. As far as Satanists, they believe in their "god" SATAN. Therefore the same does not apply. But in the same sense, in order to believe in Satan, you must believe in God, because it all stems from the same place. So even Satanists would believe in the existence of God.

But you still haven't proved that Satanists believe Satan cares if they believe in him.

3. You're doing the same thing the other guy is doing... your coming up with "what if's" with nothing to suggest you're "what if".

What if frogs had wings? Answer: They wouldn't hit their ass when them jumped.
But at the same time, there is nothing to suggest that frogs have wings, therefore I wouldn't believe that they do.

But this is beside the point, as well as the arguing about the existence of God. Many athiests on this board asked the question "What if athiests are right?" but then aren't satisfied with the "most" correct answer.

? most correct answer?

It seems to me that you think all religions resemble your own.

Quit strawmanning. In saying "faith" I was addressing all those that believe in the existence of a God. We're not arguing the practices of other religions now are we...

As far as Satanists go, let's just drop that because it's beside the point.

My challenge to you was to find me some scriptures (of a faith that believe in the existence of a God) that suggest that God does not want to be believed in....you've yet to do so.

 

[Anguille]

You're beside the point...

1. My challenge to you was to find scriptures that suggest that God does not want to be believed in. I said nothing about faith stemming from scriptures. What I did say, was that compared in a whole, there is more to suggest that God wants to be believed in than not.

This is what you said:
Not "more to suggest", you said "all".
But you still haven't proved that Satanists believe Satan cares if they believe in him.

3. You're doing the same thing the other guy is doing... your coming up with "what if's" with nothing to suggest you're "what if".

What if frogs had wings? Answer: They wouldn't hit their ass when them jumped.
But at the same time, there is nothing to suggest that frogs have wings, therefore I wouldn't believe that they do.

But this is beside the point, as well as the arguing about the existence of God. Many athiests on this board asked the question "What if athiests are right?" but then aren't satisfied with the "most" correct answer.

? most correct answer?

It seems to me that you think all religions resemble your own.

Quit strawmanning. In saying "faith" I was addressing all those that believe in the existence of a God. We're not arguing the practices of other religions now are we...

Um ...yes we were.

As far as Satanists go, let's just drop that because it's beside the point.

My challenge to you was to find me some scriptures (of a faith that believe in the existence of a God) that suggest that God does not want to be believed in....you've yet to do so.

Why would I bother to do that for you since I never asserted such a thing existed in the first place.

 

[JBeukema]

I have no mystical or occult beliefs. However, I'm really glad the religious do.

Seriously,

How many times have you heard someone religious say, "If you don't believe in God, then what’s to keep you from murder and rape and robbery?"

You see how scary that is? Our founders put protections in our constitution against the religious because they knew how dangerous these people are. How many protections did they put against atheists? None.

So I say, "I'm glad the religious have found a 'supernatural' and 'mystical' being, otherwise what's to stop them from rape and murder and robbery?"

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G-UajSDW_E]YouTube - The non morality of theism[/ame]
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THAT DON'T MAKE SENCS BECAUSE RELGION IS GOD AND GOD IS RELIGION him bing all powerfull and all knowing and compasionate dont mean you dont worship him in a religion. Pluse another thing america was found based apone freedome of religion

I see they're still trying to teach apes how to type.

wow yet another person like you... go ahead anything you are going to say I have heard.... give me your best shot... your you cant type you cant do this your that blah blah your GOD anit real he is a meth bash bash oh ya some more bashing. Well anything you say has no effect on me becasue one I dont know you. You are just a person at a pc desk on on your couch you and two who cares what you think... If I was as close minded as you are maybe then I would understand why you and people like you act the way you do.

Begone, sockpuppet
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[Rubber Hoser]

Come on dude, at least be original...now you're just echoing what N4dissent posted...

Find me scripture from any religion that suggests that God does not want us to believe in him. (That doesn't mean to post sources from a Satanist website.)

If god (if it actually exists) wanted us to believe, then god would have made us to be born with an innate sense of god, and we wouldn't have to study anything to know him/it.

 

[renoite]

Come on dude, at least be original...now you're just echoing what N4dissent posted...

Find me scripture from any religion that suggests that God does not want us to believe in him. (That doesn't mean to post sources from a Satanist website.)

If god (if it actually exists) wanted us to believe, then god would have made us to be born with an innate sense of god, and we wouldn't have to study anything to know him/it.

no he made us with freedom of choice we choose

 

[Rubber Hoser]

Come on dude, at least be original...now you're just echoing what N4dissent posted...

Find me scripture from any religion that suggests that God does not want us to believe in him. (That doesn't mean to post sources from a Satanist website.)

If god (if it actually exists) wanted us to believe, then god would have made us to be born with an innate sense of god, and we wouldn't have to study anything to know him/it.

no he made us with freedom of choice we choose

No he didn't and you can't prove that he did.

 

[renoite]

If god (if it actually exists) wanted us to believe, then god would have made us to be born with an innate sense of god, and we wouldn't have to study anything to know him/it.

no he made us with freedom of choice we choose

No he didn't and you can't prove that he did.

well if you know GOD IS real yes I can it says it in the bible freedom of choice and GOD sent his son to die for you and me so we can have a choice to live in heaven or go to hell all up to you its a choice brush up on the bible a little

 

[Anguille]

no he made us with freedom of choice we choose

No he didn't and you can't prove that he did.

well if you know GOD IS real yes I can it says it in the bible freedom of choice and GOD sent his son to die for you and me so we can have a choice to live in heaven or go to hell all up to you its a choice brush up on the bible a little

Brush up on grammar a little.

 

[N4mddissent]

The "holes" in your argument are conjectures. You make up hypothetical scenarios based on absolutely nothing. There is nothing to support your claim that God is a bastard of a God. You're basing your entire opinion on a hypothetical personality.

Second, your talking down to me as if I'm not smart enough to understand what you're talking about. "It's for my own good?" lol. Hardly...

Even Socrates understood that we all don't know jack-shit about anything. You, on the other hand, act as if you've got it all figured out and want to spread your knowledge of God and religion, or lack there of...

The fact is, you're arguing hypotheticals with NO sources. I simply answered a question.

What if athiests are right? Then we all rot in a box or in the ground, or whatever.

Then I countered a quesiton..."What if athiests are wrong?" ANSWER: Whether God is bastard of a God(No sources to even suggest so--keeping in mind that the destructions of life in the Bible were punishments for wrong-doing) or not, Athiests will still be in trouble. All sources of faith suggest that God WANTS you to believe in him, therefore, whether he's mean or not will not matter...the fact that Athiests don't believe will inevitable put them on his shit list.

.

That's where you're wrong. You see, you admit that "All sources of faith suggest..." which implies that you are familiar with all sources of faith. Furthermore, by recognizing that your premise (god wants people to believe) comes from an assertion of faith- you exhibit the problem I was illustrating in the first place. If one does not already accept what you acknowledge is an article of faith- i.e. that god wants us to believe- then the wager argument is completely inadequate.

Yes, I presented a hypothetical god. It was to illustrate a flaw. Here is the wager argument presented.

1. If god does not exist, it does not matter if we believe or not.
2. If god does exist, believing will be rewarded and disbelief will be punished.
Conclusion: It is riskier to not believe, so belief is the rational choice.

This is one of the most philosophically childish arguments in existence. I used a hypothetical god to illustrate the fact that in the argument above, as stated, there is no reason or support for the statement that belief will be rewarded and disbelief punished. It is an assumed premise based on beliefs already held. So it is foolish to think this argument would be convincing or accepted as sound by a non-believer, since it already requires an inherent belief. Only those who already believe could find it reasonable. This was the point of the hypothetical god- to point out your own subjective assumptions as a major flaw in the argument.

This does not even get into the question of whether belief is a choice. I personally do not think one can rationally and honestly choose to believe something. This is a weak argument on many levels.

I wasn't trying to talk down to you. My efforts were simply an attempt to encourage you to seek other, better arguments that haven't been rehashed and dismissed as flawed for many years now. If you would consider it for a moment, you would realize this means I was operating under the assumption that you were intelligent and reasonable enought to accept constructive criticism and develop stronger arguments. I did not take you for the dogmatic type to stubbornly stick to a flawed argument. But you seem determined to prove me otherwise.

As far as having it all figured out...I have never claimed such. You would be hard-pressed to find a definitive theological claim I have made. I consider myself an atheist, but readily concede that I would not claim absolute certainty that this is the case. Beyond that, most of my criticism takes the form of questioning certain statements and beliefs others put forth, or answering questions and criticisms directed at me. I have thought a great deal about the topic, and studied a great deal as well. Included in this is a large amount of my life spent studying the bible. So I may have some knowledge, some questions, some insights, or some doubts- but I don't claim to dispense wisdom. By asking questions, I give the opportunity for others to answer. And in the course of my search for truth, I have come across the wager argument you put forth and have seen many criticisms of it and know it is rarely used in philosophical debate because of its flaws. I was just trying to share this information with you.

There is more to suggest that belief in God would be rewarded than not...scriptures are full of stories where God rewards those who believe and punishes those who do not.

If you were to take into account, the amount of "information" available for side of the discussion, it would still suggest that the belief in God is to be rewarded. I have yet to read any religious scriptures that say otherwise...unless you consider Satanist doctrines.

I have never claimed that Pascal's Wager was a flawless argument. That's the reason it is called a "wager," because it's uncertain. When you wager on a football game, you're uncertain of the outcome.

It is called a wager because it acknowledges some uncertainty, only I think it plays fast and loose with the odds.

You have several times referred to scripture- but scripture is not an objective source of support for your argument. You may find it authoritative- I may consider just a collection of ancient writing no more authoritative than Homer's Iliad. Without already accepting the concept that the "scriptures" are sacred- which necessarily means believing they are divinely inspired and thus pre-supposes a belief in god- there is still no reason to think a god would want us to believe. Even if I accepted the existence of a god for the sake of argument, I have no reason whatsoever to believe the "scriptures" you reference are actual communication of the will of a god. There are many contradictory sacred texts in the world, and they have internal contradictions as well. They were written by humans.

More likely, if I accepted the premise that god existed, I would find that logic indicates he does not want us to believe. Because if it is the will of an all-powerful being to have us believe, then we would all believe. If he did not want to interfere with free will, he could manifest undeniable miracles- like those supposedly exhibited in scripture- and one would be hard-pressed not to believe. The fact that he does not manifest evidence of his existence, or compel belief with his power, would lead me to the reasonable conclusion that he does not want us to believe.

But of course, that's only if I took a rational approach rather than just accepting a collection of old tribal scrolls as authoritatively presenting the will of the supreme all-powerful ruler and creator of the universe. The biggest leap of faith in religion is not belief in god- it is acceptance that their sacred texts are authentic accounts of a supreme being while all other sacred texts are just collections of myths and fables.

Moses talking to god in a brush fire and Jesus cursing a fig tree because he was hungry are accurate accounts- but apollo firing arrows at Troy, Thor casting down lightning from his hammer, Muhammed flying on his white steed, or John Smith talking to the angel Moroni- these are just crazy?

Why doesn't god manifest undeniable evidence of existence- or at least present clear indication of his will?

 

[Rubber Hoser]

no he made us with freedom of choice we choose

No he didn't and you can't prove that he did.

well if you know GOD IS real yes I can it says it in the bible freedom of choice and GOD sent his son to die for you and me so we can have a choice to live in heaven or go to hell all up to you its a choice brush up on the bible a little

How do you know that the bible isn't just a lot of man made crapola?

 

[Anguille]

The biggest leap of faith in religion is not belief in god- it is acceptance that their sacred texts are authentic accounts of a supreme being while all other sacred texts are just collections of myths and fables.

I agree that that requires a bigger leap of faith than faith in divinity does.

As a character in one of Salman Rushdie's short stories said,

"“If you were an atheist, Birbal,” the Emperor challenged his first minister, “what would you say to the true believers of all the great religions of the world?” Birbal was a devout Brahmin from Trivikrampur, but he answered unhesitatingly, “I would say to them that in my opinion they were all atheists as well; I merely believe in one god less than each of them.” “How so?” the Emperor asked. “All true believers have good reasons for disbelieving in every god except their own,” said Birbal. “And so it is they who, between them, give me all the reasons for believing in none.” "

 

[renoite]

No he didn't and you can't prove that he did.

well if you know GOD IS real yes I can it says it in the bible freedom of choice and GOD sent his son to die for you and me so we can have a choice to live in heaven or go to hell all up to you its a choice brush up on the bible a little

Brush up on grammar a little.

all anyone can say is sutff about my spelling dang..... wow anything new and its not that bad lol anyone that can read that is

 

[renoite]

No he didn't and you can't prove that he did.

well if you know GOD IS real yes I can it says it in the bible freedom of choice and GOD sent his son to die for you and me so we can have a choice to live in heaven or go to hell all up to you its a choice brush up on the bible a little

How do you know that the bible isn't just a lot of man made crapola?

Because GOD has been there for me.... with all the crap that has happend to me and pluse the stuff that is happening now like the war and all the crap is happening has the bible says it will. My uncle it dont thnk GOD is real but he even says it scares me because all the stuff thats happening it says in the bible that it is going to happen.

 

[Anguille]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Although the time of death is approaching me, I am not afraid of dying and going to Hell or (what would be considerably worse) going to the popularized version of Heaven. I expect death to be nothingness and, for removing me from all possible fears of death, I am thankful to atheism.

- [/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica]Isaac Asimov[/FONT]

 

[BrianH]

It's simply not true that all sources of faith suggest God wants or even cares that anyone believes in it.

Um...yes you did...here it is. You've claimed it in this post. Since we're talking about faith's that believe in the existence of a God...find me a scripture from one of them that suggests that God does not want to be believed in.

 

[Anguille]

It's simply not true that all sources of faith suggest God wants or even cares that anyone believes in it.

Um...yes you did...here it is. You've claimed it in this post. Since we're talking about faith's that believe in the existence of a God...find me a scripture from one of them that suggests that God does not want to be believed in.

Reading comprehension is not your strong point, is it. I already explained to you how you seemed to have misread my post. I'm afraid I can't help you with it anymore.

 

[JBeukema]

It's simply not true that all sources of faith suggest God wants or even cares that anyone believes in it.

Um...yes you did...here it is. You've claimed it in this post. Since we're talking about faith's that believe in the existence of a God...find me a scripture from one of them that suggests that God does not want to be believed in.

Mark 4:10-12

10When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12so that,
" 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'

(the reference here is to Isaiah six)
Go and tell this people:
" 'Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.' 10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes. [a]
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed."

11 Then I said, "For how long, O Lord?"
And he answered:
"Until the cities lie ruined
and without inhabitant,
until the houses are left deserted
and the fields ruined and ravaged,
12 until the LORD has sent everyone far away
and the land is utterly forsaken. __________________

He doesn't want yo to know him. Because if you understood, you might actually turn and be saved.
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