Zone1 What is a person?

[alang1216]

No. A house is built because it provides a functional advantage over no house and the house is built according to a logical sequence. Same thing happened with intelligence.

Bad analogy since evolution is exactly not like that. The house is a liability until it is completely finished and ready to be occupied.

 

[alang1216]

Which one has functional advantage? Why don't you believe intelligence offers functional advantages?

Maybe because it took so long to evolve. Dinos existed for some 150 million years and developed only a rudimentary intelligence. If it was such an evolutionary win why did it not develop in dinos?

 

[ding]

True, diversity is important. Fish can lay thousands of unique eggs so what is the value of a single one? If they all hatched and survived, would that be good or bad for the fish?

That depends. Statistically that's not likely. Is it a zero probability? I think if you say every single one hatches and survives that's probably a zero probability. But if you say an unusually large number of eggs hatch and survive that probably does occur given enough time. So is that scenario good or bad? The answer is it depends. But one thing is certain, nature will adapt and reach some sort of equilibrium.

As to the value of one egg... who knows? If we change species and say that one "egg" was Einstein or Hitler what would its value be? But again... one thing is certain, nature will adapt and reach some sort of equilibrium regardless of the positive or negative value. And that's life. You can't steer it. You can only ride it and adapt to it.

 

[ding]

Nope. I say the ball is moving randomly, you say it is moving to a destination.

You can't even understand that intelligence is a functional advantage. We live in a universe where the structure of matter and the laws of nature make intelligence possible. According to natural selection intelligence will exist because it is possible for intelligence to exist and it is logical for intelligence to exist because intelligence is literally a functional advantage and aids survival. You are so biased you fail to remember that evolution occurs for logical reasons. You are so biased you incorrectly believe that evolution is a random process. What part of functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation do you not understand? So, no, the ball is not moving randomly.

 

[ding]

Bad analogy since evolution is exactly not like that.

It is a perfect analogy. We live in a universe where the structure of matter and the laws of nature make intelligence possible. According to natural selection intelligence will exist because it is possible for intelligence to exist and it is logical for intelligence to exist. So it shouldn't be a surprise to you that evolution has been building to intelligence. Which is perfectly analogous to building a house. It's done in steps. The steps are performed in a specific order. The order of the steps is based upon logic.

House

1. foundation
2. walls
3. roof
4. finish work

Space and Time

1. cosmic evolution
2. stellar evolution
3. chemical evolution
4. biological evolution
5. consciousness

 

[ding]

The house is a liability until it is completely finished and ready to be occupied.

What does that have to do with anything?

 

[ding]

Maybe because it took so long to evolve. Dinos existed for some 150 million years and developed only a rudimentary intelligence. If it was such an evolutionary win why did it not develop in dinos?

Wow. You don't believe that intelligence is a functional advantage because it took too long to evolve?

So you don't believe that intelligent people have an advantage over less intelligent people because 150 million years ago dinosaurs only had rudimentary intelligence?

So let me ask you again... do you believe that intelligence is a functional advantage? Or do you believe being stupid offers the same or more functional advantage over being intelligent?

 

[ding]

alang1216 let me ask you a very important question. Do you believe you failed to realize intelligence is a functional advantage because you were too stupid? Or do you believe you failed to realize intelligence is a functional advantage because you were too biased? I say it was the latter. What do you say?

 

[ReinyDays]

I think the only thing that humans do that is found no where else is the ability to choose to not reproduce ... I know of no other life form that can do that ... when given a reproductive opportunity, they take it ... no God-fearin' blue-green algae is going to skip a division given the chance, lions are eating their brother's young so the lioness will come into heat sooner ...

I was just reading about ancient Greek herbals and what they recommended for abortions ... no other life form would think to do that ...

 

[Carl in Michigan]

so we are no different than other animals except for all the things we can do that they cant do,,

thats fucking brilliant,,

best you not try and pass on anything,,

Humans are MUCH better at being evil scum. Humans are devils or angels. We choose.

 

[progressive hunter]

Humans are MUCH better at being evil scum. Humans are devils or angels. We choose.

tell that to the zebra as the lion rips out its throat,,

 

[ding]

I think the only thing that humans do that is found no where else is the ability to choose to not reproduce ... I know of no other life form that can do that ... when given a reproductive opportunity, they take it ... no God-fearin' blue-green algae is going to skip a division given the chance, lions are eating their brother's young so the lioness will come into heat sooner ...

I was just reading about ancient Greek herbals and what they recommended for abortions ... no other life form would think to do that ...

I have never thought of it that way. But is it true? Do herds "self police" during times of stress? And run amuck in times of plenty?

 

[Carl in Michigan]

tell that to the zebra as the lion rips out its throat,,

I'll tell that to you as you slaughter an animal more intelligent than your dog.

People are not lions or zebras. More is expected of you

 

[progressive hunter]

I'll tell that to you as you slaughter an animal more intelligent than your dog.

People are not lions or zebras. More is expected of you

when did I say zebras or lions were people??

 

[ReinyDays]

I have never thought of it that way. But is it true? Do herds "self police" during times of stress? And run amuck in times of plenty?

Well ... no ... 1] if the ecosystem can only support 100 deer, there will still be 50 fawns every spring ... replacements survive and the rest die ... usually this all depends on food availability, which changes year-to-year ... 2] we see again with species that have few offspring and diligent care to these few offspring ... like whales ... these "good opportunities" are few and far between ... but they are quickly taken when presented ...

Only a human can refuse? ... you ask if that's true and I don't think I can say yes ... I want to, but I honestly can't ... just because I can't think of another life form doesn't mean there are no other life forms that can refuse mating ...

I also don't know if this adds anything to the OP ... would an extraterrestrial be allow into the United States without a visa as long as they didn't try to work? ... or does it have to go into quarantine and get vaccinated for rabies, paro and feline leukemia? ... what is a person? ...

Oregon doesn't require a Hunting License to hunt Bigfoot ... right or wrong? ... what is a person? ...

 

[ding]

Well ... no ...

A quick google search said otherwise.

 

[ReinyDays]

A quick google search said otherwise.

... but you don't know how to make links here? ...

 

[alang1216]

That depends. Statistically that's not likely. Is it a zero probability? I think if you say every single one hatches and survives that's probably a zero probability. But if you say an unusually large number of eggs hatch and survive that probably does occur given enough time. So is that scenario good or bad? The answer is it depends. But one thing is certain, nature will adapt and reach some sort of equilibrium.

I think the point is that nature creates more than can or should survive. Nature doesn't value uniqueness.

As to the value of one egg... who knows? If we change species and say that one "egg" was Einstein or Hitler what would its value be? But again... one thing is certain, nature will adapt and reach some sort of equilibrium regardless of the positive or negative value. And that's life. You can't steer it. You can only ride it and adapt to it.

We c constantly steer it. Our domesticated crops and animals are nothing like their wild ancestors.

I think the value of a single human egg is not measurable to society but only to the individuals directly involved. If they value it enough to want to raise it then it is of great value. If it is not valued by the parents, that single human egg is worthless, regardless of its uniqueness.

 

[alang1216]

You can't even understand that intelligence is a functional advantage. We live in a universe where the structure of matter and the laws of nature make intelligence possible. According to natural selection intelligence will exist because it is possible for intelligence to exist and it is logical for intelligence to exist because intelligence is literally a functional advantage and aids survival. You are so biased you fail to remember that evolution occurs for logical reasons. You are so biased you incorrectly believe that evolution is a random process. What part of functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation do you not understand? So, no, the ball is not moving randomly.

How do you factor in climate change, volcanic eruptions, asteroids, etc. There is plenty of randomness in the universe and it took some randomness to allow intelligence to evolve.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Persons on this earth have spirits that are the literal offspring of God the Father. Animals, though I believe they have spirits, are not the offspring of God. Our spirits, as the spirit children of God, still have an eternal component that they were created from which is their intelligence. Intelligences of all things were not created or made an neither indeed can be. They are self-existent. Because of the self-existent nature of our intelligences, God could not create us to be perfect. We could only be created to be what we are to the extent that our intelligences have progressed to become through eternity past. God, knowing that our intelligences are subject to progression saw fit to help us to progress to become more like Himself. The only caveat would be that a person would need to choose to be a good being of his own free will and choice. God would provide a means of gaining knowledge and wisdom and goodness by experiencing good and evil but one would have to choose to abide by these principals of his/her own free will and choice to truly be a good being in and of oneself. Only in this way could they progress to become a truly good being. So God created a temporary world where man could come to and experience a fallen nature and come to know and understand first hand the difference between good and evil and decide for themselves what manner of being they would become. God knowing that mankind in their weakness would need a means of repentance and forgiveness as they struggle with good and evil. Thus God called a member of the Godhead who did not have an immortal resurrected body of flesh and bones yet to be the redeemer of the world to give mankind the chance to overcome his weaknesses and progress into one who understands the evils of bad choices and the goodness and joy of choosing the right. God called Jesus to become the Savior of the world before the foundation of this world. Through Him mankind would have the opportunity, if they made mistakes, to overcome those mistakes and find forgiveness and love from the Almighty.

Mankind has the potential to become perfect, even as our Father in Heaven is perfect. We have the potential to become one with God even as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is one with God the Father. It is really up to us to choose to become such. It is critical that we learn to choose good over evil of our own free will and choice to truly become good beings. If we were forced to be good beings, we would always need to be forced and would not be good beings in and of ourselves. God is a being of free will. He does all that he does of his own free will and choice. For us to be like him, we too must learn to be good beings of our own free will and choice. Thus we are given the opportunity to come to a fallen world to experience good and evil and are allowed to choose in and of ourselves to do good or evil. At times we will make mistakes because of our less than perfect nature but we can progress and become strong and best of all we can repent and be forgiven and put behind us our short comings and overcome. Mortality is a temporary learning ground for us to make choices of what manner of mankind we will become. Eventually this earth will no longer be a fallen world and will become a celestial world of glory. Those who learn to choose good over evil will eventually inherit the earth in its celestial glory. All mankind will eventually obtain an immortal resurrected body that will never suffer the frailties of a mortal body again. But we will all stand before the judgement seat of the Great Jehovah and be judged for the choices we made in this world. The vast majority of all mankind will resurrect to kingdoms of glory. The highest kingdom of glory is celestial but there will be those who are resurrected to terrestrial and telestial glories. Unfortunately there will be those who choose extreme wickedness in this world and they will be consigned to what is known as outer darkness. This is the lake of fire and brimstone mentioned in the Bible. This is where Lucifer, aka Satan or Perdition and all who sided with him in the war in heaven will reside. All who go to outer darkness are they who became sons of Perdition.

It was important that in order or us to make our own free will choices, that a veil be placed over our foreknowledge of our premortal existence in the presence of God. This way we would have to learn to walk by faith and learn to choose good over evil without the influence of our premortal existence. We would not be influenced by our knowledge of God and our valiance in the war in heaven. We would have to choose based on what learn and know only here on this earth. We would thus need to walk by faith and learn to choose good based on our experience of good and evil here on this earth without any other influence. We could learn of our premortal existence and of God and his Word but we would have to take it on faith. We would have to learn to follow goodness for goodness sake. When we all stand before the judgment bar of God, we will all regain a bright recollection of our eternal existence. We will all have the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ whether in this world or as the spirits of the dead. For this reason was the gospel also preached to those who are dead (see 1 Peter 4:6). So may we all come to the faith and make good choices in our lives here on earth and in the world of the spirits of the dead. We all get to choose what manner of mankind we will

Why is the Creator Being or Nature’s God in the desert religions a Father? Why not a Mother or Neither?