What Is The Republican Alternative To ObamaCare

[Redfish]

You can read the Constitution until you go blind, quote the Founding Fathers until you are hoarse, but the bottom line is that this country is at the bottom, relatively speaking considering that we are still the most powerful country in the world, when it comes to health care. Period, end of story:

The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems

Rank Country

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America

The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems

Out of 190 countries. Top third? Not bad.

For one of the top ten wealthiest nation's it's crap. What if that was our military's rating instead?

I did not tally it up, but I would guess that the USA has more people than all of those countries combined.

Come on, san marino???

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

How are we going in reverse. You were right earlier. This is really about whether health care is a right. The fact is it is not. It is not possible for health care to be a right because it requires theft from others to accomplish.

A right is what society agrees it is. Rights are human constructs. Rights do not exist in the wilds of nature

That has been debated by minds greater mindds than either of ours for centuries. It certainly can not be taken as a statement of fact. Assuming you're right for argument's sake however that means your assertion that you have the right to obligate me to your well being is nor more valid than my contention that you don't. It's merely a matter of how many people you can get to agree with you. Good luck with that.

Then inalienable rights are a human construct and not a statement of facts?


[MENTION=637]Bern80[/MENTION] you progress up the ladder
:

 

[Amelia]

How? How would simply taking insurance companies out of the equation be worse than insurance companies in the mix? Not that insurance companies would have to go out of business...supplement plans are popular.

It does no good if the insurance company happens to be your government.

Tell that to Medicare patients.

Are you ready to have a discussion about Medicare reimbursement, service availability, and the ramifications of the current arc we are on?

 

[Redfish]

How? How would simply taking insurance companies out of the equation be worse than insurance companies in the mix? Not that insurance companies would have to go out of business...supplement plans are popular.

It does no good if the insurance company happens to be your government.

Tell that to Medicare patients.

The best medicare program is medicare advantage which is run by insurance companies. It provides excellent low cost coverage, saves money for the medicare program, and the insurance companies make a small profit from it.

Under basic medicare you are on the hook for 20% or more of your medical expenses. Its worse than the "junk" policies that obozo wants cancelled------er, he wanted cancelled before he wanted them saved after he said they would not be cancelled, or something.

 

[bripat9643]

A right is what society agrees it is. Rights are human constructs. Rights do not exist in the wilds of nature

Utter horseshit. According to your theory, there was nothing immoral about slavery because society defined black people as property with no rights. Also, gays have no right to marry, so why are all you libturds always whining about it? Gays have all the rights society has decided they are entitled to.

Whenever some goose-stepper says rights are whatever society says, they are trying to justify violating one or more of them.

Your theory is one of the fundamental axioms of fascism.

Slavery: actually it was not immoral in most societies or in early America. In America and most of western society the concept of slavery became immoral as society expanded it's views on inclusiveness and more.

Gays and other minorities (women included) have rights because American society expanded it's concept of who was a citizen and who was equal as a human being.


Fascism is attractive to people like you. To liberals like me, it is abhorrent. It is why the ACLU defends the rights of the likes of the KKK and a Rush Limbaugh

Liberals are fascists, so don't try to pass off that crap on me.

You just didn't get the point. If rights are whatever society says they are, then what justifies anyone complaining that some law is unjust? Right now turds like you are whining about gay marriage and healthcare being rights, but you just said that if society hasn't passed a law making them rights, then they aren't rights. So what have you been whining about for the last 50 years? You just said that no one had a right to healthcare in 2008 before Obamacare passed, yet you and your ilk were constantly whining that healthcare is a right. You're still whining that gay marriage is a right even though it isn't legal in most states of the union.

Do you understand what a contradiction is?

Obviously you don't.

 

[Seawytch]

I don't understand why the party of "fiscal responsibility" isn't proposing Single Payer...

July 2013: Economist Gerald Friedman, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts, Amherst

“Under the single-payer system created by HR 676 [the Expanded and Improved Medicare for All Act, introduced by Rep. John Conyers Jr., D-Mich.], the U.S. could save an estimated $592 billion annually by slashing the administrative waste associated with the private insurance industry ($476 billion) and reducing pharmaceutical prices to European levels ($116 billion). In 2014, the savings would be enough to cover all 44 million uninsured and upgrade benefits for everyone else.

“Specifically, the savings from a single-payer plan would be more than enough to fund $343 billion in improvements to the health system such as expanded coverage, improved benefits, enhanced reimbursement of providers serving indigent patients, and the elimination of co-payments and deductibles in 2014.

Single Payer System Cost? | Physicians for a National Health Program

because the "party of fiscal responsibility" knows that single payer medical care would not be "fiscally responsible"

Socialistic policies and programs are never fiscally responsible.

I just provide evidence that your statement isn't true. You've provided?

 

[Redfish]

It does no good if the insurance company happens to be your government.

Tell that to Medicare patients.

Are you ready to have a discussion about Medicare reimbursement, service availability, and the ramifications of the current arc we are on?

don't confuse wytchey with facts, they make her little head hurt.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Yes, more of the 'it's for your own good' bullshit. God forbid people actually take the time to understand what they're actually buying.

Utilitu bills, insurance coverage, health food, vitamin supplements...water in bottles, advertisements and reasearch into human behavior are used to confuse people in order to sell products.

Why regulate commerce? Why not every man for himself and buyers beware?

You need to stop being an angry lemming and grow the fuck up.

Lemming is a better definition for you than it is for me. You're the one insisting we all just fall in line. And let's not advance the strawman argument that regulation of business must be all or nothing. This however is regulation of business or the constitutional catch all, regulation of interstate commerce. The commerce isn't between states nor is it regulating existing commerce. It's requiring new commerce.

Well according to those on your side, the majority is like you, ill-informed and opposed to Obamacare.

 

[bendog]

How? How would simply taking insurance companies out of the equation be worse than insurance companies in the mix? Not that insurance companies would have to go out of business...supplement plans are popular.

It does no good if the insurance company happens to be your government.

Tell that to Medicare patients.

The problem with medicare is that once a patient has supplemental insurance, there's really lilttle incentive to not consume as much as they want, and the providers have to earn on volume because medicare severely limits their profit margins. But on the other hand, voucher ideas won't work because something like a third of oldsters will have some dementia issue, and market principles depend upon consumer intelligent choice.

With single payor, it might be possible to incourage people to consume less by deductables and co-pays. However, the govt doesn't operate on profits and loss, so there's no guarantee our politicians will have to tell us we've had enough this year.

The more "radical" conservative approaches were simply do away with employer sponsored, and give each person money. Don't get sick, you keep the money.

 

[Katzndogz]

The tax to fund the health care system is 20%. The total tax isn't 20%, just health care and it's limited to legal residents only.

 

[bripat9643]

A right is what society agrees it is. Rights are human constructs. Rights do not exist in the wilds of nature

It's not an inalienable right, which is the kind government is limited to protecting. Health care can, if we so choose, be a service government provides. But it makes no logical sense to classify it alongside political rights like freedom of speech, association, etc... Doing so is demagoguery, attempting to trojan it in as a de facto responsibility of government - since there is already widespread agreement that government is supposed to 'protect our rights'. It's just more Orwellian word games to obfuscate an agenda.

The government ( and society) has NEVER been limited to your narrow opinion of what constitutes a right, inalienable or not.

Yeah, we know. Every time government gives out goodies, the left claims it's a right. That's why the left's conception of rights is pure horseshit.

 

[Redfish]

I don't understand why the party of "fiscal responsibility" isn't proposing Single Payer...



Single Payer System Cost? | Physicians for a National Health Program

because the "party of fiscal responsibility" knows that single payer medical care would not be "fiscally responsible"

Socialistic policies and programs are never fiscally responsible.

I just provide evidence that your statement isn't true. You've provided?

you post an opinion blog as evidence.

ask the brits if their NHS is fiscally responsible, ask them if they are happy with the care it provides them.

 

[Seawytch]

It does no good if the insurance company happens to be your government.

Tell that to Medicare patients.

The best medicare program is medicare advantage which is run by insurance companies. It provides excellent low cost coverage, saves money for the medicare program, and the insurance companies make a small profit from it.

Under basic medicare you are on the hook for 20% or more of your medical expenses. Its worse than the "junk" policies that obozo wants cancelled------er, he wanted cancelled before he wanted them saved after he said they would not be cancelled, or something.

With single payer that hole would be closed. Savings on negotiating drug prices alone would pay for it.

Again, if you want your stairway elevator or super hearing aid, you can purchase the supplemental plan offered by insurance companies.

 

[bripat9643]

Utilitu bills, insurance coverage, health food, vitamin supplements...water in bottles, advertisements and reasearch into human behavior are used to confuse people in order to sell products.

Why regulate commerce? Why not every man for himself and buyers beware?

You need to stop being an angry lemming and grow the fuck up.

Lemming is a better definition for you than it is for me. You're the one insisting we all just fall in line. And let's not advance the strawman argument that regulation of business must be all or nothing. This however is regulation of business or the constitutional catch all, regulation of interstate commerce. The commerce isn't between states nor is it regulating existing commerce. It's requiring new commerce.

Well according to those on your side, the majority is like you, ill-informed and opposed to Obamacare.

They are better informed than you. Plus, they are capable of committing logic.

 

[Redfish]

Utilitu bills, insurance coverage, health food, vitamin supplements...water in bottles, advertisements and reasearch into human behavior are used to confuse people in order to sell products.

Why regulate commerce? Why not every man for himself and buyers beware?

You need to stop being an angry lemming and grow the fuck up.

Lemming is a better definition for you than it is for me. You're the one insisting we all just fall in line. And let's not advance the strawman argument that regulation of business must be all or nothing. This however is regulation of business or the constitutional catch all, regulation of interstate commerce. The commerce isn't between states nor is it regulating existing commerce. It's requiring new commerce.

Well according to those on your side, the majority is like you, ill-informed and opposed to Obamacare.

latest polls show that 65% of americans oppose obamacare. when I went to school 65% was more than a majority

 

[Sallow]

You can read the Constitution until you go blind, quote the Founding Fathers until you are hoarse, but the bottom line is that this country is at the bottom, relatively speaking considering that we are still the most powerful country in the world, when it comes to health care. Period, end of story:

The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems

Rank Country

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America

The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems

Yes and your point? obamacare has already shown it's not going to make us number 1 when it comes to healthcare.
We are number 1 in buying pills also.
number 1 in doctor visits
number 1 in leading the world in new medical procedures

We are also #1 in survival rates for all types of cancer, as well as heart disease and other illnesses. That's the true measure of a healthcare system.

That's probably because more people here get cancer and heart disease than in most parts of the industrialized world.

Our crappy health care system, poor diets and lack of exercise make one of the top countries for..

Obesity and bad health.

And yeah..you folks fight efforts to combat that too.

 

[Sallow]

Lemming is a better definition for you than it is for me. You're the one insisting we all just fall in line. And let's not advance the strawman argument that regulation of business must be all or nothing. This however is regulation of business or the constitutional catch all, regulation of interstate commerce. The commerce isn't between states nor is it regulating existing commerce. It's requiring new commerce.

Well according to those on your side, the majority is like you, ill-informed and opposed to Obamacare.

latest polls show that 65% of americans oppose obamacare. when I went to school 65% was more than a majority

Which is why Mitt Romney is President.

Oh wait.



(And you should take a look at your numbers. In the oppose ObamaCare camp, the MAJORITY of those folks wanted single payer)

 

[Edgetho]

Yes and your point? obamacare has already shown it's not going to make us number 1 when it comes to healthcare.
We are number 1 in buying pills also.
number 1 in doctor visits
number 1 in leading the world in new medical procedures

We are also #1 in survival rates for all types of cancer, as well as heart disease and other illnesses. That's the true measure of a healthcare system.

That's probably because more people here get cancer and heart disease than in most parts of the industrialized world.

Our crappy health care system, poor diets and lack of exercise make one of the top countries for..

Obesity and bad health.

And yeah..you folks fight efforts to combat that too.

I guess that explains why Oil Sheiks, Heads of State, Multi Billionaires and others who can afford it invariably come here when they have a serious problem. Including a LOT of Canadians. Really a lot. Ask the good folks at the Cleveland and/or Mayo Clinics

For that bad Health Care, right?

You people are so incredibly stupid, it isn't even funny.

We can't talk to you. You really are just too stupid.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

[MENTION=23837]bigrebnc1775[/MENTION]

Chief Justice Roberts, writing for the Court, held while the “individual mandate is not a valid exercise of Congress’s power under the Commerce Clause and the Necessary and Proper Clause,” it is valid as an exercise of the taxing power granted the federal government by the Constitution.

Supreme Court Rewrites ObamaCare; Rules Individual Mandate Is Permissible Tax

Obama in 2009: "Absolutely Not a Tax Increase" - YouTube

Your opinion is duly noted.

The fact that the PPACA was ruled constitutional stands.

The Obama admin had multiple arguments in the court, not unusual at all, and one of those arguments were what Roberts ruled on....the penalty as a tax.

Roberts did NOT make it up out of thin air as whacky wingnut world would have you believe

True story
:

Dumb ass I'm not Chief Justice Roberts nor am I obama neither link or the video did I have anything to do with, except posting them. They are not my opinion they are fact.

OBAMACARE mandate was ruled unconstitutional the tax was not. obama said it wasn't a tax.
SHUT THE FUCK UP.

4. The majority did not address the serverability question after concluding that the Individual Mandate was constitutional.

Justices Scalia, Kennedy, Thomas, and Alito argued that the Individual Mandate and Medicaid expansion are inserverable, and that the entirety of the ACA is therefore unconstitutional. The provisions of the Act, they argue, are "closely interrelated," with the two unconstitutional provisions serving as "pillars." - The Affordable Care Act Cases | The Oyez Project at IIT Chicago-Kent College of Law

Get it yet, loser?

 

[bripat9643]

Yes and your point? obamacare has already shown it's not going to make us number 1 when it comes to healthcare.
We are number 1 in buying pills also.
number 1 in doctor visits
number 1 in leading the world in new medical procedures

We are also #1 in survival rates for all types of cancer, as well as heart disease and other illnesses. That's the true measure of a healthcare system.

That's probably because more people here get cancer and heart disease than in most parts of the industrialized world.

Wrong. the survival rate is a percentage measure. It doesn't matter how may people have the disease. having far more patients makes our achievement even more impressive.

Our crappy health care system, poor diets and lack of exercise make one of the top countries for..

Obesity and bad health.

And yeah..you folks fight efforts to combat that too.

It's entirely the result of poor diets and lack of exercise. The healthcare system does not cause obesity. The healthcare system isn't the sole determining factor in a the health of a nations population. In fact, it has little to do with your health. It only patches you up after you become ill.