What is your definition of a peoples' right to self-determination?

[abi]

It is not the slightest bit a dangerous concept

Why have so many suffered and died. Why is this still ongoing? That's silly. It's obviously dangerous.

and the world does not in the least reject the idea that self-determination normally takes place on a peoples historical territory.

When it is involving stolen land, you are wrong. Look at every UN vote, look at the landslides and be honest.

 

[Shusha]

Shusha, did you see Emily's post?

I did.

 

[abi]

I did.

Funny, you agree there?

 

[Shusha]

It is not the slightest bit a dangerous concept

Why have so many suffered and died. Why is this still ongoing? That's silly. It's obviously dangerous.

and the world does not in the least reject the idea that self-determination normally takes place on a peoples historical territory.

When it is involving stolen land, you are wrong. Look at every UN vote, look at the landslides and be honest.

People suffer and die when they reject other's self-determination. Embracing others self-determination is respectful and leads to peace. In every instance I can think of. Again, as example: Czechoslovakia.

And the historic territory of the Jewish people exists in only one place in the world. Guess where it is?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Self-determination is the inherent, inviolable right of a collective peoples who self-define and generally, but not always, have a distinct culture, to have full agency and sovereignty of a nation in at least part of their historic territory in order to express their unique values and culture.

We had a thread that showed what a dangerous concept that is and how nearly the entire world rejects the idea.

From what I have seen in the many places that this right is mentioned in law, it always involved people on their own land. I havn't seen stealing land supported by this right.

The right to self determination is always followed by: "Without external interference." The Palestinians are the citizens of a place defined by international borders. The Palestinians are citizens because they are the habitual residents (Montevideo calls them a permanent population.) of that defined territory. People from outside that territory cannot interfere in their self determination.

 

[abi]

People suffer and die when they reject other's self-determination. Embracing others self-determination is respectful and leads to peace. In every instance I can think of. Again, as example: Czechoslovakia.

And the historic territory of the Jewish people exists in only one place in the world. Guess where it is?

Please stay in the last few centuries. The idea of returning to somewhere you have never been is stupid. Not on this thread, PLEASE.

 

[Shusha]

I did.

Funny, you agree there?

Well, she calls for respect for the equality of others and education. And checks on government. I agree with those things. Don't have any idea why you think I wouldn't.

 

[abi]

Well, she calls for respect for the equality of others and education. And checks on government. I agree with those things. Don't have any idea why you think I wouldn't.

Because of your views on occupation, settlements, outposts, apartheid, ethnic cleansing...

 

[Shusha]

Self-determination is the inherent, inviolable right of a collective peoples who self-define and generally, but not always, have a distinct culture, to have full agency and sovereignty of a nation in at least part of their historic territory in order to express their unique values and culture.

We had a thread that showed what a dangerous concept that is and how nearly the entire world rejects the idea.

From what I have seen in the many places that this right is mentioned in law, it always involved people on their own land. I havn't seen stealing land supported by this right.

The right to self determination is always followed by: "Without external interference." The Palestinians are the citizens of a place defined by international borders. The Palestinians are citizens because they are the habitual residents (Montevideo calls them a permanent population.) of that defined territory. People from outside that territory cannot interfere in their self determination.

But people from WITHIN that territory, who originated on that territory and who have an historical connection to that territory most certainly CAN. Physical removal of a people from an historical territory does NOT remove their rights to that territory or their historical connection. Thus, both the Jewish people and the Arab Palestinian people must be considered people from within that territory. Actually, the Jewish people have a much stronger argument for that than the invading Arab peoples.

 

[Shusha]

Well, she calls for respect for the equality of others and education. And checks on government. I agree with those things. Don't have any idea why you think I wouldn't.

Because of your views on occupation, settlements, outposts, apartheid, ethnic cleansing...

On the contrary, I have always supported fully and entirely the rights of both people to equal treatment and self-determination.

 

[fncceo]

The idea of returning to somewhere you have never been is stupid.

Thank you for a concrete rejection of Palestinian right of return.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Again for the slow, the Arabs have had EVERY chance to declare a country there starting in 1948 and continuing to today they made a CONSCIOUS decision for all these years NOT to do that. Not the Jews NOT the Israelis JUST the Arabs. EVERY single time THEY chose not to form a Government and instead INSIST on the destruction of Israel. They are the problem not the Israelis.

 

[Shusha]

People suffer and die when they reject other's self-determination. Embracing others self-determination is respectful and leads to peace. In every instance I can think of. Again, as example: Czechoslovakia.

And the historic territory of the Jewish people exists in only one place in the world. Guess where it is?

Please stay in the last few centuries. The idea of returning to somewhere you have never been is stupid. Not on this thread, PLEASE.

You are arguing that the removal of a people from their territory ends their rights to that territory, regardless of history. Are you sure you want to go with that? Kinda sucks for all the Arab Palestinian people who no longer have the right of return because they have never been to "Palestine".

 

[Shusha]

The right of self-determination applies to the collective Jewish people on the territory where they originated and are indigenous to.

 

[abi]

You people are not here for honest discussion. Does your right to self-determination end when it occurs on foreign land?

 

[Shusha]

You people are not here for honest discussion. Does your right to self-determination end when it occurs on foreign land?

The Jewish people are not foreigners to that land. That is the land they are indigenous to. Don't be ridiculous.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

You people are not here for honest discussion. Does your right to self-determination end when it occurs on foreign land?

You are not honesty THE ARABS there made a conscious decision since 1948 NOT to form a Government even when given EVERY chance to do so, in FACT in 1948 if they formed they would have been bigger then Israel. Instead they have steadfastly DEMANDED and WORKED to ELIMINATE Israel and either kill or evict all Jews from land they were entitled too also, you remember your whole self determination of this thread?

 

[abi]

You people are not here for honest discussion. Does your right to self-determination end when it occurs on foreign land?

The Jewish people are not foreigners to that land. That is the land they are indigenous to. Don't be ridiculous.

You people are not here for honest discussion. Does your right to self-determination end when it occurs on foreign land?

And if you are going back to what we covered on the precedent thread, just stop. The world votes overwhelmingly (several times) that you are wrong, ridiculous even.

 

[abi]

You people are not here for honest discussion. Does your right to self-determination end when it occurs on foreign land?

You are not honesty THE ARABS there made a conscious decision since 1948 NOT to form a Government even when given EVERY chance to do so, in FACT in 1948 if they formed they would have been bigger then Israel. Instead they have steadfastly DEMANDED and WORKED to ELIMINATE Israel and either kill or evict all Jews from land they were entitled too also, you remember your whole self determination of this thread?

We are trying to discuss peoples' rights to self-determination on a foreign continent where they, themselves had never even been to.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The right of self-determination applies to the collective Jewish people on the territory where they originated and are indigenous to.

You base your conclusion on all Jews have ancestors who were expelled from that territory. That simply is not true.

Your whole shtick is based on false premise.