What is your Opinion on the 21 Foot Rule?

[JimBowie1958]

Tueller Drill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Tueller Drill is a self-defense training exercise to prepare against a short-range knife attack when armed only with a holstered handgun.

Sergeant Dennis Tueller, of the Salt Lake City, Utah Police Department wondered how quickly an attacker with a knife could cover 21 feet (6.4 m), so he timed volunteers as they raced to stab the target. He determined that it could be done in 1.5 seconds. These results were first published as an article in SWAT magazine in 1983 and in a police training video by the same title, "How Close is Too Close?"[1]

A defender with a gun has a dilemma. If he shoots too early, he risks being charged with murder. If he waits until the attacker is definitely within striking range so there is no question about motives, he risks injury and even death. The Tueller experiments quantified a "danger zone" where an attacker presented a clear threat.[2]

The Tueller Drill combines both parts of the original time trials by Tueller. There are several ways it can be conducted:[3]
1.The "attacker and shooter are positioned back-to-back. At the signal, the attacker sprints away from the shooter, and the shooter unholsters his gun and shoots at the target 21 feet (6.4 m) in front of him. The attacker stops as soon as the shot is fired. The shooter is successful only if his shot is good and if the runner did not cover 21 feet (6.4 m).
2.A more stressful arrangement is to have the attacker begin 21 feet (6.4 m) behind the shooter and run towards the shooter. The shooter is successful only if he was able take a good shot before he is tapped on the back by the attacker.
3.If the shooter is armed with only a training replica gun, a full-contact drill may be done with the attacker running towards the shooter. In this variation, the shooter should practice side-stepping the attacker while he is drawing the gun.

Mythbusters covered the drill in the 2012 episode "Duel Dilemas". At 20 feet the gun wielder was able to shoot the charging knife attacker just as he reached the shooter. At shorter distances the knife wielder was always able to stab prior to being shot

So is the 21 Foot Rule legit or Bullshit?

 

[westwall]

Totally legit. When I was a younger, and faster man, I could get a knife attack in over a distance of around 30 feet depending on the quickness of the target.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Totally legit. When I was a younger, and faster man, I could get a knife attack in over a distance of around 30 feet depending on the quickness of the target.

Agreed.

The point of the 21 foot rule is to make officers aware of anyone within that distance is a lethal threat from a hidden knife, so they have to control a perimeter to that distance if able.

Most likely a dude would distract the officer, like offer him the Drivers License and accidentally drop it, pull the knife while the license falls then go to work.

It is shocking to me how often a cop will let a person get in real close.

I personally could not do that job.

 

[westwall]

You don't even need to distract most people. Normal reaction times are such that a primed attacker can cover that 21 feet before even an attentive officer can arm himself.

 

[JimBowie1958]

You don't even need to distract most people. Normal reaction times are such that a primed attacker can cover that 21 feet before even an attentive officer can arm himself.

True, but at arms length and distracted you can be a fat old ass and still make a lethal stick.

 

[BobPlumb]

I watched this on myth busters. The guy with the knife has the knife ready to attack, but the guy with the gun keeps the gun in his holster until the knife guy charges.

The simple solution would be that the guy with the gun should draw his weapon if he sees the guy welding the knife at a distance. Then he will already prepared to shoot if the guy with the knife charges him. Waiting until the guy with the knife charges to upholster the gun seems unwise.

If the guy with the knife performers a sneak attack, then the question is moot.

 

[westwall]

I watched this on myth busters. The guy with the knife has the knife ready to attack, but the guy with the gun keeps the gun in his holster until the knife guy charges.

The simple solution would be that the guy with the gun should draw his weapon if he sees the guy welding the knife at a distance. Then he will already prepared to shoot if the guy with the knife charges him. Waiting until the guy with the knife charges to upholster the gun seems unwise.

If the guy with the knife performers a sneak attack, then the question is moot.

That's the whole reason for the rule

 

[BobPlumb]

I watched this on myth busters. The guy with the knife has the knife ready to attack, but the guy with the gun keeps the gun in his holster until the knife guy charges.

The simple solution would be that the guy with the gun should draw his weapon if he sees the guy welding the knife at a distance. Then he will already prepared to shoot if the guy with the knife charges him. Waiting until the guy with the knife charges to upholster the gun seems unwise.

If the guy with the knife performers a sneak attack, then the question is moot.

That's the whole reason for the rule

I agree. I was biased due to Mythbusters. The "myth" they were testing was that you shouldn't bring a knife to a gun fight. They busted the myth ignoring the common sense of the gunman should already have his gun in hand and ready to fire if it's already a fight.

[ame=http://youtu.be/ckz7EmDxhtU]Mythbusters Never Bring a Knife to a Gun Fight - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Tueller Drill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Tueller Drill is a self-defense training exercise to prepare against a short-range knife attack when armed only with a holstered handgun.

Sergeant Dennis Tueller, of the Salt Lake City, Utah Police Department wondered how quickly an attacker with a knife could cover 21 feet (6.4 m), so he timed volunteers as they raced to stab the target. He determined that it could be done in 1.5 seconds. These results were first published as an article in SWAT magazine in 1983 and in a police training video by the same title, "How Close is Too Close?"[1]

A defender with a gun has a dilemma. If he shoots too early, he risks being charged with murder. If he waits until the attacker is definitely within striking range so there is no question about motives, he risks injury and even death. The Tueller experiments quantified a "danger zone" where an attacker presented a clear threat.[2]

The Tueller Drill combines both parts of the original time trials by Tueller. There are several ways it can be conducted:[3]
1.The "attacker and shooter are positioned back-to-back. At the signal, the attacker sprints away from the shooter, and the shooter unholsters his gun and shoots at the target 21 feet (6.4 m) in front of him. The attacker stops as soon as the shot is fired. The shooter is successful only if his shot is good and if the runner did not cover 21 feet (6.4 m).
2.A more stressful arrangement is to have the attacker begin 21 feet (6.4 m) behind the shooter and run towards the shooter. The shooter is successful only if he was able take a good shot before he is tapped on the back by the attacker.
3.If the shooter is armed with only a training replica gun, a full-contact drill may be done with the attacker running towards the shooter. In this variation, the shooter should practice side-stepping the attacker while he is drawing the gun.

Mythbusters covered the drill in the 2012 episode "Duel Dilemas". At 20 feet the gun wielder was able to shoot the charging knife attacker just as he reached the shooter. At shorter distances the knife wielder was always able to stab prior to being shot

So is the 21 Foot Rule legit or Bullshit?

Oh it's legit. A well-trained knife fighter can dispatch those armed with firearms pretty much of the time in CQB. There many times I'd rather have a combat knife than pistol. Average engagement range in self-defense situations is under 2 meters. That's the personal space radius around our person, and how close people will usually get before attacking. In such situations it's often physically impossible to draw and discharge a fiorearm because your arm can be easily deflected or immobilized. Why most combat shooting classes emphasize 'point shooting' where you're firing the moment your weapon is out of the holster and aimed level. Actual shooting incidents have this about as far as people armed with pistols got their weapon out.

Real-world combat on the street and how it's depicted in movies is completely different. Real-world is best described as 'spazzing out.' The movies portray something more like ballet than combat. Watch the various COPS type shows, or World's Dumbest to see what real fights look like. Are likely 'police training' videos online showing dashcam videos where officers had to shoot to subdue an attacker. Most real fights are more like UFC grappling than punches and kicks. All well and good to have a pistol, but unless trained well in how to respond when someone grabs your arms grappling you down to the ground, or getting in-close and stabbing you, chances are you're going to be overconfident having emphasized the wrong kind of training. An often fatal mistake.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Tueller Drill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Tueller Drill is a self-defense training exercise to prepare against a short-range knife attack when armed only with a holstered handgun.

Sergeant Dennis Tueller, of the Salt Lake City, Utah Police Department wondered how quickly an attacker with a knife could cover 21 feet (6.4 m), so he timed volunteers as they raced to stab the target. He determined that it could be done in 1.5 seconds. These results were first published as an article in SWAT magazine in 1983 and in a police training video by the same title, "How Close is Too Close?"[1]

A defender with a gun has a dilemma. If he shoots too early, he risks being charged with murder. If he waits until the attacker is definitely within striking range so there is no question about motives, he risks injury and even death. The Tueller experiments quantified a "danger zone" where an attacker presented a clear threat.[2]

The Tueller Drill combines both parts of the original time trials by Tueller. There are several ways it can be conducted:[3]
1.The "attacker and shooter are positioned back-to-back. At the signal, the attacker sprints away from the shooter, and the shooter unholsters his gun and shoots at the target 21 feet (6.4 m) in front of him. The attacker stops as soon as the shot is fired. The shooter is successful only if his shot is good and if the runner did not cover 21 feet (6.4 m).
2.A more stressful arrangement is to have the attacker begin 21 feet (6.4 m) behind the shooter and run towards the shooter. The shooter is successful only if he was able take a good shot before he is tapped on the back by the attacker.
3.If the shooter is armed with only a training replica gun, a full-contact drill may be done with the attacker running towards the shooter. In this variation, the shooter should practice side-stepping the attacker while he is drawing the gun.

Mythbusters covered the drill in the 2012 episode "Duel Dilemas". At 20 feet the gun wielder was able to shoot the charging knife attacker just as he reached the shooter. At shorter distances the knife wielder was always able to stab prior to being shot

So is the 21 Foot Rule legit or Bullshit?

Oh it's legit. A well-trained knife fighter can dispatch those armed with firearms pretty much of the time in CQB. There many times I'd rather have a combat knife than pistol. Average engagement range in self-defense situations is under 2 meters. That's the personal space radius around our person, and how close people will usually get before attacking. In such situations it's often physically impossible to draw and discharge a fiorearm because your arm can be easily deflected or immobilized. Why most combat shooting classes emphasize 'point shooting' where you're firing the moment your weapon is out of the holster and aimed level. Actual shooting incidents have this about as far as people armed with pistols got their weapon out.

Real-world combat on the street and how it's depicted in movies is completely different. Real-world is best described as 'spazzing out.' The movies portray something more like ballet than combat. Watch the various COPS type shows, or World's Dumbest to see what real fights look like. Are likely 'police training' videos online showing dashcam videos where officers had to shoot to subdue an attacker. Most real fights are more like UFC grappling than punches and kicks. All well and good to have a pistol, but unless trained well in how to respond when someone grabs your arms grappling you down to the ground, or getting in-close and stabbing you, chances are you're going to be overconfident having emphasized the wrong kind of training. An often fatal mistake.

Stress is a wild card. The few times I have been in stressful situations like that, it was truly weird. I recall only a few things as all I seemed to focus on was dealing with the threat, but I also recall a narrowing of my field of vision, though I wasn't thinking of it at the time. It may be clichéd, but I also recall a sense of time slowing down.

But yeah, you should train for using lethal methods in such situations and the MMA stuff is all out the window, as you are going to do the kinds of things that MMA bans if you want to live through it, especially if you are giving up a lot of size.

Dealing with someone who has or very likely has a knife, I would have my hand on the pommel of my gun ready to pull, with a shot when cleared of the holster and a body aimed shot with the gun about chest high and held in close, elbows against my sift ribs, no Weaver, not if the target is close in and might grab the gun.

People badly underestimate the threat of a knife in the hands of a person who has been trained to use it well.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

 

[BobPlumb]

If only things worked the way they do in the movies!

[ame=http://youtu.be/anEuw8F8cpE]Raiders of the Lost Ark - Why Guns Are Better Than Swords - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Jarlaxle]

I watched this on myth busters. The guy with the knife has the knife ready to attack, but the guy with the gun keeps the gun in his holster until the knife guy charges.

The simple solution would be that the guy with the gun should draw his weapon if he sees the guy welding the knife at a distance. Then he will already prepared to shoot if the guy with the knife charges him. Waiting until the guy with the knife charges to upholster the gun seems unwise.

If the guy with the knife performers a sneak attack, then the question is moot.

A knife is a very easy weapon to hide...and drawing one while charging to strike is not especially difficult.