What Leftism Does to People

[Luissa]

And you believe what they want you to. Check out the demographics of the movement. They are protesting unchecked capitalism, and the fact some are alright with destroying the middle class while catering to the wealthy. Like someone else said, less government in regulating the market caused our economy and market to fall. College students and union workers did not do that.
As much as you guys want to blame socialism for our problems, the proof is against you. Socialism doesn't hand out bad loans and move our jobs over seas. Socialism isn't about making bad investment with little regulation.

I do agree with his premise that letting the state get more and more involved in our daily life decisions, having them be the source of income for people, and generally trading liberty for the security, ease, and comfort of someone else making decisions for you will lead to a more statist attitude amongst the people.

This, in the end, is ruinous to a nation as a whole.....just look to Greece for a real life example of how these type of ideals play out over time, in reality.

No argument with that. But let's take it one step further.

Is it possible that those who WANT to be dependent on government, who WANT others to ensure their financial security, who don't WANT to be responsible for their own choices and actions--i.e. leftists--who are those who make up the Occupy groups?

(Disclaimer: No, I am NOT saying that all who tilt left of center or who label themselves liberal are irresponsible or exercise poor citizenship. I AM saying that the Occupy groups seem to be irresponsible and exercising poor citizenship.)

And maybe it is because those who choose to depend on government for their livelihood and who WANT an authoritarian government to order their society, because they WANT to be irresponsible without consequence and without obligation, also manifest their poorly defined dissatisfaction in antisocial, destructive, and irresponsible ways that run roughshod over the rights of others?

And those who WANT to be responsible and in charge of their own destinies and who want an ever more intrusive, authoritarian, and greedy government to be rolled back to a far more constructive role, will demonstrate their disatisfactiion in a responsible and courteous manner that does not infringe on the rights of others?

It isn't difficult for me to know which of these two groups I want to share a society with.

Yes its very possible and in fact plausible if you've actually paid attention to the OWS crowd that they fit your description almost perfectly. I really get this vibe from those protests. I sum them up by "We envy what others have and lust after it greedily, we demand that we can have the same regardless of if we make good personal decisions or not"


To be honest compare the attitudes and behaviors of many of the OWS protests and protestors to the attitudes and behaviors of many of the TEA protests and protestors and you can see a real life example of this difference.

 

[Luissa]

And socialism for sure doesn't over inflate the housing market. That is all capitalism.
Capitalism is great, I love being a consumer, but it is only great if we keep it in check. 1929 proved that.

 

[boilermaker55]

The whole left vs right thing is just a distraction. It's what the powers at be (both sides) do in order to keep themselves in power. Whoever classifies themselves as a "leftist" or a "rightist" has already fallen for the brainwashing of the media/politicians. Is it any wonder why people who question both sides are called radicals? The real radical is somebody who believes/supports one belief system in it's entirety-because they're told to.

In other words: anybody who agrees with any set of political beliefs 100% isn't thinking. Because when the left calls Bush out on disregarding the constitution to wage war-but don't hold the same standards to Obama...it's because he's "on their side". Same thing when the right didn't mind Bush starting Iraq at that time, yet now call Obama out for Libya. It's being good little soldiers and following the orders the leaders of the parties tell you to do.

Absolutely, why the working class fights among themselves, at the behest of the powerful and rich, they sit idley by and laugh at us.

 

[Foxfyre]

Well Luissa is the ONLY person I've heard yet who seems to know what they are protesting. THEY don't seem to know what they are protesting.

But I don't care if they are protesting for God, mother, and apple pie, they show their true colors by their violence, hatefulness, antisocial behavior, and disregard and disrespect for the rights and property of others.

The question remains. Is it leftism that encourages people to behave that way as Andrew Klavan suggests in his thesis? And if so, do the Occupy supporters here think that is a good thing?

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

.

No argument with that. But let's take it one step further.

Is it possible that those who WANT to be dependent on government, who WANT others to ensure their financial security, who don't WANT to be responsible for their own choices and actions--i.e. leftists--who are those who make up the Occupy groups?

(Disclaimer: No, I am NOT saying that all who tilt left of center or who label themselves liberal are irresponsible or exercise poor citizenship. I AM saying that the Occupy groups seem to be irresponsible and exercising poor citizenship.)

And maybe it is because those who choose to depend on government for their livelihood and who WANT an authoritarian government to order their society, because they WANT to be irresponsible without consequence and without obligation, also manifest their poorly defined dissatisfaction in antisocial, destructive, and irresponsible ways that run roughshod over the rights of others?

And those who WANT to be responsible and in charge of their own destinies and who want an ever more intrusive, authoritarian, and greedy government to be rolled back to a far more constructive role, will demonstrate their disatisfactiion in a responsible and courteous manner that does not infringe on the rights of others?

It isn't difficult for me to know which of these two groups I want to share a society with.

Yes its very possible and in fact plausible if you've actually paid attention to the OWS crowd that they fit your description almost perfectly. I really get this vibe from those protests. I sum them up by "We envy what others have and lust after it greedily, we demand that we can have the same regardless of if we make good personal decisions or not"


To be honest compare the attitudes and behaviors of many of the OWS protests and protestors to the attitudes and behaviors of many of the TEA protests and protestors and you can see a real life example of this difference.

And you believe what they want you to. Check out the demographics of the movement. They are protesting unchecked capitalism, and the fact some are alright with destroying the middle class while catering to the wealthy. Like someone else said, less government in regulating the market caused our economy and market to fall. College students and union workers did not do that.
As much as you guys want to blame socialism for our problems, the proof is against you. Socialism doesn't hand out bad loans and move our jobs over seas. Socialism isn't about making bad investment with little regulation

My description of the movement is the impression I got from going by the one in boston 2 times. So yes, you are right. I believe what the movement in boston has portrayed itself to have me believe.

You may be a rational person but that doesn't mean that the OWS crowd is rational like you.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

And socialism for sure doesn't over inflate the housing market. That is all capitalism.
Capitalism is great, I love being a consumer, but it is only great if we keep it in check. 1929 proved that.

Problem is The Equal Housing Lending act is socialism and not capitalism and that is what led to our housing crash .

 

[Bfgrn]

And socialism for sure doesn't over inflate the housing market. That is all capitalism.
Capitalism is great, I love being a consumer, but it is only great if we keep it in check. 1929 proved that.

Problem is The Equal Housing Lending act is socialism and not capitalism and that is what led to our housing crash .

Bullshit! Here is what we DO know:

1) The financial crisis was not caused by low and middle income families buying a home.

2) It was not caused by dead beat poor people.

3) Fannie and Freddie were not to cause.

4) The Community Investment Act was not the culprit either.

The crisis was caused by private lending, to mostly upper middle class and the wealthy. ONLY 6% of of all the higher-priced loans were extended by CRA-covered lenders to lower-income borrowers or neighborhoods in their CRA assessment areas. The majority of those foreclosed on were wealthy and upper middle class, plus a large segment of buyers who were wealthy home flippers looking for a fast buck. They strategically walked away from their mortgages, leaving people who bought homes to live in with lower values on their house and neighborhood.

AND, what really sucks for the right wing propaganda of lies, all the way back to the late '90's there was one very outspoken and vocal critic of predatory lending practices, they even held protests at companies like Wells Fargo and Lehman Brothers...ACORN


WSJ - Fed’s Kroszner: Don’t Blame CRA

WSJ - Fed’s Kroszner: Don’t Blame CRA - The Sequel

Reuters - UPDATE 2-Lending to poor didn't spur crisis

Don't Blame the Community Reinvestment Act

Business Insider - Here's Why Fannie And Freddie Are Not At Fault For The Housing Bubble

Center for Responsible Lending - CRA is not to Blame for the Mortgage Meltdown

Don't blame Fannie and Freddie

Private sector loans, not Fannie or Freddie, triggered crisis

ForeclosureS.com - ACORN - Progress in the Fight Against Predatory Lending

Acorn Led Financial Sector With Warnings on Lending

Biggest Defaulters on Mortgages Are the Rich

The Millionaire Foreclosure Club

Foreclosure double standard: Why the rich get away with defaulting

More Rich People Default On Mortgages

The rich bail faster on mortgages

Biggest Defaulters on Mortgages Are the Rich

Rich Borrowers More Likely to Default on Mortgage

Foreclosures & Walking Away: 60 Minutes Eyes an ‘Epidemic’

Speculation By Investors Largely Cause Of Foreclosure Crisis

How the Foreclosure Crisis Started: Investors, Speculators, Mortgage Fraud & Lax Lending Standards


"Eighty percent of Republicans are just Democrats that don't know what's going on"
Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

 

[Foxfyre]

The housing crisis was indeed caused by government interference with that market that led to risky loans building an unsustainable bubble that created the crisis when too many defaulted on those loans and the bubble burst. That is, it was socialist policy that created the bubble.

And as interesting and important a topic as that is, it has absolutely nothing to do with why the leftists protesting in the Occupy groups are behaving so badly.

While those who lobby/protest/demonstrate/rally for personal freedom and less government involvement in our lives do not act badly but make a point to be good citizens.

So is it the leftist mentality that provokes such bad behavior?

That is Andrew Klavan's thesis. Apparently many here are really uncomfortable with that concept.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

The housing crisis was indeed caused by government interference with that market that led to risky loans building an unsustainable bubble that created the crisis when too many defaulted on those loans and the bubble burst. That is, it was socialist policy that created the bubble.

And as interesting and important a topic as that is, it has absolutely nothing to do with why the leftists protesting in the Occupy groups are behaving so badly.

While those who lobby/protest/demonstrate/rally for personal freedom and less government involvement in our lives do not act badly but make a point to be good citizens.

So is it the leftist mentality that provokes such bad behavior?

That is Andrew Klavan's thesis. Apparently many here are really uncomfortable with that concept.

Apparantly you have assessed the situation correctly as evidenced by Bfgrn's post going off onto tangents other than the root cause....the govt getting involved in the housing market and lending markets throughout the 90's under clinton and continuing keeping on under Bush.

 

[Bfgrn]

The housing crisis was indeed caused by government interference with that market that led to risky loans building an unsustainable bubble that created the crisis when too many defaulted on those loans and the bubble burst. That is, it was socialist policy that created the bubble.

And as interesting and important a topic as that is, it has absolutely nothing to do with why the leftists protesting in the Occupy groups are behaving so badly.

While those who lobby/protest/demonstrate/rally for personal freedom and less government involvement in our lives do not act badly but make a point to be good citizens.

So is it the leftist mentality that provokes such bad behavior?

That is Andrew Klavan's thesis. Apparently many here are really uncomfortable with that concept.

Apparantly you have assessed the situation correctly as evidenced by Bfgrn's post going off onto tangents other than the root cause....the govt getting involved in the housing market and lending markets throughout the 90's under clinton and continuing keeping on under Bush.

The housing crash was caused by private lenders outside of government regulations. What Clinton did in the 90's or even Bush's ownership society were not the root cause.

 

[Foxfyre]

The housing crisis was indeed caused by government interference with that market that led to risky loans building an unsustainable bubble that created the crisis when too many defaulted on those loans and the bubble burst. That is, it was socialist policy that created the bubble.

And as interesting and important a topic as that is, it has absolutely nothing to do with why the leftists protesting in the Occupy groups are behaving so badly.

While those who lobby/protest/demonstrate/rally for personal freedom and less government involvement in our lives do not act badly but make a point to be good citizens.

So is it the leftist mentality that provokes such bad behavior?

That is Andrew Klavan's thesis. Apparently many here are really uncomfortable with that concept.

Apparantly you have assessed the situation correctly as evidenced by Bfgrn's post going off onto tangents other than the root cause....the govt getting involved in the housing market and lending markets throughout the 90's under clinton and continuing keeping on under Bush.

Yes it began with Carter managing to get legislation passed to make it easier for the poor to buy homes. The rules were written in a responsible way at that time, however. In the Clinton administration, the bureaucrats started rewriting the rules and putting pressure for riskier and risker loans on Freddie and Fannie who attempted to minimize their own risk by bundling bad loans with good ones and selling these off to the financial institutions. As the bubble was building, it was highly lucrative and many jumped on the band wagon to get a piece of that pie.

The irresponsible policies continued well into the Bush administration. To his credit President Bush and a few others were sounding the alarm in the last few years before the crash, but the then Democratically controlled Congress continued to support Freddie and Fannie and deny there was a problem. Then when there was an economic downturn, people who had no investment in their homes began defaulting not in the hundrds but in the tens of thousands. And the bubble burst.

So now the Occupy groups blame Wallstreet for the problem. Wallstreet never would have been a problem if it had not been for an irresponsible Congress and bureaucracy. Wallstreet may indeed be guilty of crimes, but the Occupy groups are trying to hang them for a crime they did not commit.

And the Occupy groups are doing that by utter disregard for decency, the law, and the rights and property of others.

Is it the leftist mentality that prompts them to behave that way?

Is there anybody brave enough to tackle that question?

 

[Bfgrn]

The housing crisis was indeed caused by government interference with that market that led to risky loans building an unsustainable bubble that created the crisis when too many defaulted on those loans and the bubble burst. That is, it was socialist policy that created the bubble.

And as interesting and important a topic as that is, it has absolutely nothing to do with why the leftists protesting in the Occupy groups are behaving so badly.

While those who lobby/protest/demonstrate/rally for personal freedom and less government involvement in our lives do not act badly but make a point to be good citizens.

So is it the leftist mentality that provokes such bad behavior?

That is Andrew Klavan's thesis. Apparently many here are really uncomfortable with that concept.

Let's explore Klavan's thesis...

These people were very well behaved.

And theses people showed bad behavior, trespassed and destroyed private property.

 

[Foxfyre]

Noting Bfgm's haste to evoke Godwin's Law to avoid dealing with the thesis.

Anyboy brave enough to deal with it? Anybody at all?

 

[Bfgrn]

Noting Bfgm's haste to evoke Godwin's Law to avoid dealing with the thesis.

Anyboy brave enough to deal with it? Anybody at all?

Bullshit you arrogant ass. CLEARLY behavior alone is not an accurate criteria. People who are highly conformist is not the desirable end.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Nobody is more aware of an irresponsible government than are the Tea Partiers. It is the incompetence, self serving greed, and corruption of those that have been elected to public office along with a population ever more willing to be supported by others rather than assume responsibility for themselves that has brought us to the sorry state in which we find ourselves.

Yet the Tea Partiers, definitely right of center, choose to make a difference while being good citizens, considerate of others, careful not to infringe on the rights of others, etc.

Why don't the Occupy groups, identified as mostly left of center, choose that?

I take it you worship the Tea Part and demonize the Occupy Wall St protest. The left, according to you and Andrew Klavan are "awful people".

I take you know what work each and every "leftist" does for our country. No person of left leaning politics could ever be a good citizen, considerate of others or careful not to infringe on the rights of others.

What a partisan hack Klavan is.

 

[Avatar4321]

The housing crisis was indeed caused by government interference with that market that led to risky loans building an unsustainable bubble that created the crisis when too many defaulted on those loans and the bubble burst. That is, it was socialist policy that created the bubble.

And as interesting and important a topic as that is, it has absolutely nothing to do with why the leftists protesting in the Occupy groups are behaving so badly.

While those who lobby/protest/demonstrate/rally for personal freedom and less government involvement in our lives do not act badly but make a point to be good citizens.

So is it the leftist mentality that provokes such bad behavior?

That is Andrew Klavan's thesis. Apparently many here are really uncomfortable with that concept.

Let's explore Klavan's thesis...

These people were very well behaved.

And theses people showed bad behavior, trespassed and destroyed private property.

Mass murder is well behaved?

You arent seriously that stupid are you?

 

[Sky Dancer]

Noting Bfgm's haste to evoke Godwin's Law to avoid dealing with the thesis.

Anyboy brave enough to deal with it? Anybody at all?

Bullshit you arrogant ass. CLEARLY behavior alone is not an accurate criteria. People who are highly conformist is not the desirable end.

The trains ran on time in Nazi Germany. I get the feeling Klavan envisions concentration camps for "leftists".

 

[Wicked Jester]

Where have leftist countries succeeded, financially or socially?

Look at Europe, in total turmoil, both socially and financially......Leftism is calamity, nothing more!

 

[Avatar4321]

Noting Bfgm's haste to evoke Godwin's Law to avoid dealing with the thesis.

Anyboy brave enough to deal with it? Anybody at all?

Bullshit you arrogant ass. CLEARLY behavior alone is not an accurate criteria. People who are highly conformist is not the desirable end.

The trains ran on time in Nazi Germany. I get the feeling Klavan envisions concentration camps for "leftists".

Actually, that was Mussolini's Italy.

 

[Sky Dancer]

The housing crisis was indeed caused by government interference with that market that led to risky loans building an unsustainable bubble that created the crisis when too many defaulted on those loans and the bubble burst. That is, it was socialist policy that created the bubble.

And as interesting and important a topic as that is, it has absolutely nothing to do with why the leftists protesting in the Occupy groups are behaving so badly.

While those who lobby/protest/demonstrate/rally for personal freedom and less government involvement in our lives do not act badly but make a point to be good citizens.

So is it the leftist mentality that provokes such bad behavior?

That is Andrew Klavan's thesis. Apparently many here are really uncomfortable with that concept.

Apparantly you have assessed the situation correctly as evidenced by Bfgrn's post going off onto tangents other than the root cause....the govt getting involved in the housing market and lending markets throughout the 90's under clinton and continuing keeping on under Bush.

Yes it began with Carter managing to get legislation passed to make it easier for the poor to buy homes. The rules were written in a responsible way at that time, however. In the Clinton administration, the bureaucrats started rewriting the rules and putting pressure for riskier and risker loans on Freddie and Fannie who attempted to minimize their own risk by bundling bad loans with good ones and selling these off to the financial institutions. As the bubble was building, it was highly lucrative and many jumped on the band wagon to get a piece of that pie.

The irresponsible policies continued well into the Bush administration. To his credit President Bush and a few others were sounding the alarm in the last few years before the crash, but the then Democratically controlled Congress continued to support Freddie and Fannie and deny there was a problem. Then when there was an economic downturn, people who had no investment in their homes began defaulting not in the hundrds but in the tens of thousands. And the bubble burst.

So now the Occupy groups blame Wallstreet for the problem. Wallstreet never would have been a problem if it had not been for an irresponsible Congress and bureaucracy. Wallstreet may indeed be guilty of crimes, but the Occupy groups are trying to hang them for a crime they did not commit.

And the Occupy groups are doing that by utter disregard for decency, the law, and the rights and property of others.

Is it the leftist mentality that prompts them to behave that way?

Is there anybody brave enough to tackle that question?

You want to smear anyone with leftist politics based on your "outraged sensibilities" about how some people are behaving at a protest.

Why not simply ask why do people behave this way in a crowd, rather than presuming it's the politics.

We have many examples of peaceful demonstrations by left leaning citizens. Of course, that doesn't fit your prejudice and hatred of people whose politics are different from yours.

I am still shaking my head at your ignorance about Katrina survivors. It sounded very close to racism.