What makes arguing with liberals so frustrating #1

[thereisnospoon]

"Labor unions represent themselves. Unions are businesses and as such are in business to turn a profit. Unions are collectives. They create a group and pit them against their employer.
Unlike democrats/liberals, conservatives want everyone to be a success to the best of their ability.
You people want to create groups and pit them against each other. "

Same old rhetoric. I remember working for my first employer. Driving garbage truck I was. He asked me to work extra. I did for no extra compensation because I thought it was in the best interest of holding down my job. In today's work world, that would be the DUMBEST, MOST ASSINE thing I could ever do. The work market has changed. My message to todays workers is do what you are told to do, no extra, no more. Your employer sees you as a bad bad bad thing.

When your boss tells you to work uncompensated you document this labor law violation and report it to the authorities. Or ,you find another job.
What is it about that concept is so difficult to understand?
There is a huge difference between working uncompensated and showing your employer you have the drive and ambition to move forward.
Being just average or "good enough" is not enough.
I have heard this whine before, "well what do you expect, I only make (x number) per hour"...NO!!!!! A worker is paid to do their job to the best of their ability through their entire shift. They are expected to show up for work every day on time.
Your premise is "screw the boss because I think he is under paying me"....
Doing just enough to get by always results in release from employment. That's the way it should be.
Labor is a commodity. Labor markets should always be competitive. This ensures only the best workers reap the rewards of employment and upward mobility.

 

[thereisnospoon]

The market has shifted completely to worker VERSUS employer. Thats the way it is intended to be. Sure the employer can offer what they want, but nobody has to apply for the job. Its a two way street. Workers who dont constantly ask for more are always poor workers.

That is YOUR opinion.
Ask for more?...What are they asking for?
A raise? For what? My response is "look, you've been pushing a broom around here for five years. If you want a raise, show me you can do something that makes your presence here more valuable to the company. Here is your challenge, I want you to hook up with the lead machine mechanic and learn to do basic repairs. Once you have shown me you can do those, I guarantee you more money"...
Broom pushers are very easily replaceable.
Here is an example of how not to get a raise or even keep one's job.
"Mr. Manager, I have put in 5 years in general maintenance, I deserve a raise"....
My response would be, "Put yourself in my shoes. I am responsible for a budget. I have only so much in that budget for a person in your position. What makes you think your broom pushing/trash collecting is worth anymore to the company than it was last year when you got your last cost of living increase?"...

 

[The T]

They refuse to acknowledge those concepts.

And you and Tank Engine refuse to acknowledge that tyranny and subjugation can be perpetrated by parties other than the government.

Stay on point.

Cujo refuses...good call.

 

[The T]

The market has shifted completely to worker VERSUS employer. Thats the way it is intended to be. Sure the employer can offer what they want, but nobody has to apply for the job. Its a two way street. Workers who dont constantly ask for more are always poor workers.

That is YOUR opinion.
Ask for more?...What are they asking for?
A raise? For what? My response is "look, you've been pushing a broom around here for five years. If you want a raise, show me you can do something that makes your presence here more valuable to the company. Here is your challenge, I want you to hook up with the lead machine mechanic and learn to do basic repairs. Once you have shown me you can do those, I guarantee you more money"...
Broom pushers are very easily replaceable.
Here is an example of how not to get a raise or even keep one's job.
"Mr. Manager, I have put in 5 years in general maintenance, I deserve a raise"....
My response would be, "Put yourself in my shoes. I am responsible for a budget. I have only so much in that budget for a person in your position. What makes you think your broom pushing/trash collecting is worth anymore to the company than it was last year when you got your last cost of living increase?"...

We have had a couple of people that were installers that wanted a pay increase. That meant they had to study to become Technicians...two things...they didn't want to study, nor did they want to be subject of wearing a pager to be called out at night or in the early A.M. to field calls.

It's a thing called motivation.

 

[initforme]

Ok, dont give me a raise. I dont owe you anything more than showing up then. As I have correctly told my son work as hard as you are paid, NO MORE. You work for a good employer work hard. Work for the majority just show up. Good enough. This american work your butt off. For what? How stupid are americans?

 

[thereisnospoon]

I remember my 3rd job. Working for a furniture manufacturing company. They paid me $17 an hour in the management area. After 6 years of working 6 - 7 days per week (ridiculous) and not watching my kids play their sports I had enough. I asked for a raise. They said no at first. I told them I was not coming in the next week. They said fine. Then they crawled on their knees when I quit and gave ZERO notice(proudest day of my working life for those of you business owners) and asked me to come back. I said Ok but called in sick for one week in which they called me in and we negotiated a much higher wage to which they said would strap them somewhat(they were lying). I got mine which I was entitled to. I then quit and started my own business. They closed down 2 years later. I celebrated when I heard of their demise. I learned how to treat my workers fairly from that experience. I learned to expect less profit and keep my workers and their work quality. It keeps customers.

Your story had steam until you mentioned you were "entitled"....WRONG..In business, there is no such thing as "entitled"..
Then to further cast a black cloud over your credibility is your celebration of the demise of your former employer.
Ok, genius...Where is your concern for your fellow worker? Those people LOST their jobs and you celebrate.
Question: would you have the balls to go up to those now out of work people and tell them you were glad their jobs were gone? If you say "yes" you are the biggest bullshit artist this side of the Atlantic Ocean.
I despise your attitude. You claim to be one with the masses, yet you testify you are really just in it for yourself..
And please spare me the " I take less profit" bullshit. Because if your business slowed to the point where it's keep the workers or keep my business open, you will do as any other business owner and do what it took to survive.
Oh, do you allow your workers to do only what they must to keep their jobs because that is all they being paid? How does that fly with your best people?

 

[thereisnospoon]

Ok, dont give me a raise. I dont owe you anything more than showing up then. As I have correctly told my son work as hard as you are paid, NO MORE. You work for a good employer work hard. Work for the majority just show up. Good enough. This american work your butt off. For what? How stupid are americans?

And your kid will never amount to anything but an entry level low wage worker.
Now I will get the "my kid is a success" story...
Stow it.
And no, if you do not show me you wish to improve your skills, you are NOT getting a raise and you WILL find yourself out of the door.

 

[chanel]

I was just called a "dishonest ****" on another thread for supporting the Church's position on Obamacare. Nuff said?

 

[Foxfyre]

The market has shifted completely to worker VERSUS employer. Thats the way it is intended to be. Sure the employer can offer what they want, but nobody has to apply for the job. Its a two way street. Workers who dont constantly ask for more are always poor workers.

That is YOUR opinion.
Ask for more?...What are they asking for?
A raise? For what? My response is "look, you've been pushing a broom around here for five years. If you want a raise, show me you can do something that makes your presence here more valuable to the company. Here is your challenge, I want you to hook up with the lead machine mechanic and learn to do basic repairs. Once you have shown me you can do those, I guarantee you more money"...
Broom pushers are very easily replaceable.
Here is an example of how not to get a raise or even keep one's job.
"Mr. Manager, I have put in 5 years in general maintenance, I deserve a raise"....
My response would be, "Put yourself in my shoes. I am responsible for a budget. I have only so much in that budget for a person in your position. What makes you think your broom pushing/trash collecting is worth anymore to the company than it was last year when you got your last cost of living increase?"...

I have never asked for a raise, but I have never stayed at my starting wage on any job that I stayed more than three months. You learn everything this is to know about whatever you are hired to do and do it as well as it can be done, improving performance as you figure out ways to do that, and all the while you are watching other employees and learning from them until you are ready to do at least part of their jobs too. Such people rarely ever stay at their starting wage and, if there is room to move up the ladder in the organization, they are the ones promoted.

At the very least, if you are doing a good job in a dead end job, or there isn't any other position that appeals to you, you have demonstrated a good work ethic, competence, reliability, and have developed good referenvces to change jobs when you get the chance. Those who already have a job, even a McJob, almost always look better to an employer than those who have been out of work for awhile.

But our labor is a commodity to sell as much as any other commodity and is worth only as much as it will produce profit for the employer. If an employee is only earning you $8/hr and you're paying him/her $10/hr, you're gonna go broke pretty quickly.

 

[Liability]

I was just called a "dishonest ****" on another thread for supporting the Church's position on Obamacare. Nuff said?

Please tell me that you wouldn't feel better if he called you an honest -- one.

 

[chanel]

Funny. Not.

The left can be a hateful bunch. But something tells me these personal attacks are a sign of desperation. I will take that as a hopeful sign for Republicans.

Taking one for the team so to speak. Lol

 

[thereisnospoon]

Funny. Not.

The left can be a hateful bunch. But something tells me these personal attacks are a sign of desperation. I will take that as a hopeful sign for Republicans.

Taking one for the team so to speak. Lol

There is something in the mindset of the left that makes them believe civility is a sign of weakness.
The enter into a discussion with the idea they have the superior but not always correct view on and issue. They believe they should not be questioned. When challenged, the typical liberal will reply using the same statement over again. Or they may cite a point of view that is identical to theirs. If a further challenge that demands an further explanation or God forbid, a fact or two, the response invariably involves some kind of angry retort.

 

[chanel]

I teach high school. I hear ya. Lol

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Hint......Jesus was a Liberal

How is that possible?? Jesus has always been thought of as conservative. This is why the Roman big governemnt liberals and the USSR liberals and the Chinese communist liberals made him illegal.

They wanted to be worshiped as Gods on earth, while Jesus taught that there were no Gods on earth. Jesus was the first conservative, after Aristotle that is.

"immanentize the eschaton" was a lapel button at CPAC for year!!

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

There is something in the mindset of the left that makes them believe civility is a sign of weakness.

this is because leftism is based on ignorance. If you challenge them logically they defend themselves the only way they can, uncivilly.

They don't have the IQ to understand how freedom works so like children they believe in magical government. How can you be civil defending magic?

 

[sealybobo]

Unions will strike a company into bankruptcy without a hint of concern for the loss of jobs.

Unions USED to have a legitimate purpose.

Unions often don't SERVE that purpose very well anymore.

Yes. Striking was a power that unions once had. It was an effective tool. The GOP took that tool away. Started back with Reagan and the air traffic controllers. Today unions only make up like 12% of us? This is the rich/corporations/gop goal. Destroy the unions and with it, the Democratic party. An all out attack on labor and the middle class.

And you middle class people who hate unions, don't realize that this will hurt you eventually. All the beneifs you have, thank a union. Want to work 80 hours a week like before Unions?

The gap between the ceo and the workers has never been greater. We need Unions more than ever.

Your attack on unions and labor, union or not, proves the need for more unions, not less.

The corporations/republicans/billionaires have pushed too far and are going to make unions come back strong.

If it weren't for the GM and Ford workers making $35 hr, Toyoda and Honda would only be paying their factory workers $10 hr. So unions have even helped non union factory workers down south. They just don't realize it. Take away the unions and those non union factory workers will find themselves paying more for healthcare, getting no raises, working more hours for no overtime, sick and vacation days will slowly but surely go away, etc.

Middle class Republicans need to wake up. If GOP policies haven't hurt you yet, please don't wait for it to happen to you like it has happened for the rest of us 99%.

If you are in the top 1%, or even top 10% and you don't want us to make more so you can make less, I totally understand. But there are more of us than there are you. And if we can wake up more and more of our middle class citizens who vote GOP, then the GOP will be forced to stop being so anti middle class. This election might do it. We are going to win the White House and the House of Reps back! Can't wait. Romney, HA! Santorum. LOL.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

What makes arguing with liberals so frustrating #1

'Cause you consistently show-up with.....

.....bullshit-factoids....

....and, end-up layin'-in-the-dirt, after another ass-whuppin'.

That's more-commonly-referred-to as masochism.

Chances are.....you call it martyrdom.....and, we call it a reeeaaallly good-time!!!!!​

 

[Chris]

The Chinese don't have unions.

They work 35 hour days for 31 cents an hour.

They have to have suicide nets around the factory buildings to keep workers from killing themselves.

Sounds like a Republican Utopia.

 

[sealybobo]

I have worked for several non union companies.

In the 90's when unemployment was low, non union companies had to be competitive with union companies on wages.

This is one of the reasons the GOP crashed the economy on purpose. It has lowered wages. They have bankrupted companies and raped their pension funds ala Bain Capital. Also killing off a lot of unions.

Anyways, back to my point. Now that unemployment is high, we see corporations sitting on a lot of cash and giving their ceo's big bonus'. But the workers aren't getting raises. That's something that wouldn't happen in a union company. So if you don't get a raise for the next 20 years and your ceo's pay goes up each year, maybe you should think about organizing.

Union workers got raises and that is the only reason the rest of us got raises. Now that unions don't exist anymore, manufacturing has come back to America paying $10 hr. Maybe they will organize.

Union workers got great healthcare and THEN you got good healthcare. Your company didn't give it to you to be kind. It was a benefit that stated at a union company. Now that unions are all but dead, we see how sucky heatlhcare is at most employers.

Unions got sick days and vacation days and overtime if asked to work more than 40 hour work weeks. All these things made living in America great. Republicans are assaulting all this.

In the past 12 years while they have all but killed the unions, the companies I work have slowly chipped away at what they pay us. Must sell more and they don't pay as much as they used to. Why should they? The economy sucks. This is why Republicans love high unemployment. Lowers wages.

Unions have all but vanashed. Went from 30% of US workers to about 10 now. And it isn't coincidence that wages have not gone up in the exact same period of time.

But CEO's pay has skyrocketed. And anyone with a brain knows its a problem in a society whenever the gap between the rich and poor gets too wide.

So today we make the same as we did in the 70's, adding inflation in???

Followinging me righties?

No way a unionized company would let the CEO take home $40 million and the workers don't get a raise too.

This is why we need more unions, not less.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Unions will strike a company into bankruptcy without a hint of concern for the loss of jobs.

Unions USED to have a legitimate purpose.

Unions often don't SERVE that purpose very well anymore.

Yes. Striking was a power that unions once had. It was an effective tool. The GOP took that tool away. Started back with Reagan and the air traffic controllers. Today unions only make up like 12% of us? This is the rich/corporations/gop goal. Destroy the unions and with it, the Democratic party. An all out attack on labor and the middle class.

And you middle class people who hate unions, don't realize that this will hurt you eventually. All the beneifs you have, thank a union. Want to work 80 hours a week like before Unions?

The gap between the ceo and the workers has never been greater. We need Unions more than ever.

Your attack on unions and labor, union or not, proves the need for more unions, not less.

The corporations/republicans/billionaires have pushed too far and are going to make unions come back strong.

If it weren't for the GM and Ford workers making $35 hr, Toyoda and Honda would only be paying their factory workers $10 hr. So unions have even helped non union factory workers down south. They just don't realize it. Take away the unions and those non union factory workers will find themselves paying more for healthcare, getting no raises, working more hours for no overtime, sick and vacation days will slowly but surely go away, etc.

Middle class Republicans need to wake up. If GOP policies haven't hurt you yet, please don't wait for it to happen to you like it has happened for the rest of us 99%.

If you are in the top 1%, or even top 10% and you don't want us to make more so you can make less, I totally understand. But there are more of us than there are you. And if we can wake up more and more of our middle class citizens who vote GOP, then the GOP will be forced to stop being so anti middle class. This election might do it. We are going to win the White House and the House of Reps back! Can't wait. Romney, HA! Santorum. LOL.

First....PATCO, the union representing the Air Traffic Controllers had as do all other federal employee unions a no strike clause in it's contract. Reagan as he should have told the union that if they violated the no strike clause, would terminate the employment of all who went on strike. PATCO called Reagan's bluff and the union lost.
Of course this had nothing to do with the private sector unions.
The GOP took away nothing. What malady has stricken the unions they did to themselves.
Unions put themselves out of business by not adjusting.
I am middle class and would not join a union for any amount of money. No way.
You pro union people really need to stop including "middle class" in your fight. We don't want to be included in your group.
BTW, unions represent less than 8% of private sector workers.
"We" do not need unions. YOU do. I do not need some pinky ring wearing black Cadillac driving mook telling me who I can talk to and how much money I can earn. I don't want them telling me where to shop or what's off limits. And I certainly don't want these thugs telling me who I can vote for in an election.
Auto workers...Ok I would like you to prove that if unions did not exist Toyota would pay their workers $10 per hour.
"Take away the unions and those non union factory workers will find themselves paying more for healthcare, getting no raises, working more hours for no overtime, sick and vacation days will slowly but surely go away, etc. "
Please tell me you actually don't believe these pro union talking points.
Really dude? We have federal and state labor laws in place. So please, stop the nonsense.
Ahh sick days....Many companies have eliminated sick days because the benefit is perhaps the most widely abused of all. Most firms just offer Paid time off. That is vacation, sick, bereavement and other paid time off. So what.
More often than not people take sick days when they are not really sick.
No one is attacking labor. The majority of us are uninterested in union problems.
How have democrats helped unions? Since the beginning of Obama's admin combined with the two years he had with both houses of Congress being democrat, why has union membership continued to decline? According to you, democrats are the saviors of unions.
So what gives?...
This ought to be a doozy.