What makes arguing with liberals so frustrating #1

[percysunshine]

Arguing with liberals is not really frustratating. It sort of fits in the 'entertainment' category of discourse.

 

[amrchaos]

Sometimes, you are not arguing with liberals.

You may be arguing with a conservative with a different perspective than you. Isn't that frustrating as well?

 

[Foxfyre]

I see this over and over. Conservatives are for limited government. Just because we say we don't want government doing things where government is inept, counterproductive, wasteful or whatever, does not mean that we should shut it down totally.

Yes, we do need roads, bridges, highways, jails, schools, aircraft carriers, GPS satellites, standard weights and measures, courts, etc etc. Saying we don't need subsidies for crummy cars badly built and still with astronomical prices does not mean we don't need highways.

The conservative view is that the government should be a useful servant of the people's needs. However, you give it too much money, power, authority it becomes the worst sort of master.

arguing with a liberal is like arguing with a spoiled teen ..

Arguing with liberals is like trying to herd house cats.

Also the cats are shape shifters. Just about the time you have them boxed into a corner with an argument or fact they can't refute, they are conditioned to ignore it come back with a different (and usually unrelated) question, straw man, red herring, or other diversion.

 

[Vast LWC]

Being wrong is always frustrating.

Well, you would be the expert on that.

Ahh, the "I'm rubber and you're glue" approach.

Haven't seen that in a while.

 

[Vast LWC]

Also the cats are shape shifters. Just about the time you have them boxed into a corner with an argument or fact they can't refute, they are conditioned to ignore it come back with a different (and usually unrelated) question, straw man, red herring, or other diversion.

Generally your perception of what constitutes "straw man, red herring, or other diversion" is not the same as your opponent's perception. Therein lies your confusion.

 

[Foxfyre]

Also the cats are shape shifters. Just about the time you have them boxed into a corner with an argument or fact they can't refute, they are conditioned to ignore it come back with a different (and usually unrelated) question, straw man, red herring, or other diversion.

Generally your perception of what constitutes "straw man, red herring, or other diversion" is not the same as your opponent's perception. Therein lies your confusion.

My perceptions are usually based on the accepted definitions of those terms though. Some of my opponents seem not to have read or learned those.

 

[uscitizen]

For liberalism/progressiveism(sic) to survive it must create an enemy. In this case the perceived enemy is wealth and those who posses wealth.

And the perceived enemy of the right is the poor. The non Christians, etc.

Same game different channel.
Do not play the game, see the truth.

Please give examples of how and where conservatives consider the poor to be their enemy?
Provide examples of facts that state all Christians are conservatives and also provide examples of how all non-Christians are not Conservative.
See ya in about a month with your bullshit Huff Puff link.

I did not say that all christians are conservatives.
Just that most conservatives to not like non christians. Ie Muslims, atheists, those who try and keep religion out of govt, etc.

Conservatives always complain about those getting govt assistance and strive to end welfare, medicaid, food stamps, etc.
They also tend to adore the top 1%.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Sometimes, you are not arguing with liberals.

You may be arguing with a conservative with a different perspective than you. Isn't that frustrating as well?

No, because conservatives I don't agree with are still at least speaking understandable English about actual reality.

 

[koshergrl]

Sometimes, you are not arguing with liberals.

You may be arguing with a conservative with a different perspective than you. Isn't that frustrating as well?

No, because conservatives I don't agree with are still at least speaking understandable English about actual reality.

EXACTLY.

And they don't blame YOU for things THEY have brought about.

For example, progressives pissing and moaning about "the government" being involved in our sex lives.

WTH! They're the ones who INSISTED that the government be involved in our sex lives...first by trying to force the government to sanction homosexual relations (by changing the definition of marriage to include anyone who is having sexual relations and wants to be called "married") and then by using the government to force employers to provide free birth control.

Hello? We aren't the ones who wanted the government in there, YOU are, and now you have it. Isn't it jolly.

And that's ASIDE from their loony insistence that words don't mean anything, that we need to act on what we believe people THINK, not what they say or do...and right and wrong is relative.

What a drain they are on life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and all things good.

 

[Vast LWC]

Generally your perception of what constitutes "straw man, red herring, or other diversion" is not the same as your opponent's perception. Therein lies your confusion.

My perceptions are usually based on the accepted definitions of those terms though. Some of my opponents seem not to have read or learned those.

Hmm, let me give an example:

In the recent debate over the Rush Limbaugh fracas, many Liberals thought that the fact that medical insurance paid for Viagra was a very pertinent point in the discussion.

While Rush fans considered it to be a Red Herring.

I'm just saying that there is often a divide so wide between views on the extremes that even simple comparisons, metaphors and related topics that fit in to one group's view of the conversation, do not fit in to the other group's.

I believe this is due to the completely separate idioms and catch phrases that each group employs in their popular media.

For instance, if a right-winger brings up Bill Ayers in a conversation, other right-wingers would nod their heads and understand, while the majority of the rest of the population would give you a blank look. The same sort of disconnect happens with left-wingers.

 

[koshergrl]

See, he did it right there.

THE MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION would know EXACTLY what we're talking about.

It's this pretense that YOUR reality is actually...real...that is so fucking irritating. And what's a pretense but just another lie?

Negged for being an asswipe.

 

[Foxfyre]

Sometimes, you are not arguing with liberals.

You may be arguing with a conservative with a different perspective than you. Isn't that frustrating as well?

No, because conservatives I don't agree with are still at least speaking understandable English about actual reality.

Amen. While there absolutely are trolls, idiots, and numbnuts among conservatives, when you find a conservative that doesnt fit in any of those designations, we may strongly disagree with that conservative's perspectives, but both sides will be able to focus on the specific issue and will be able to articulate a rationale for their point of view without going ad hominem or getting insulting about it. A conservative knows why he or she believes what he or she believes and can articulate it and is rarely in denial on the realities of socioeconomic and sociopolitical issues,.

The liberals who will do that are very, very rare and I really appreciate those when I do find them. I suspect the vast majority are so fuzzy on why they believe what they believe, they are honestly incapable of articulating a rationale for it and are not only in denial, but won't even discuss the realities of most issues. So all they have left are non sequitur, straw men, ad hominem, and personal insults.

Example.

Conservative: Many government programs are not helping the poor but are encouraging poverty.

Liberal: You are selfish, greedy, hate the poor and love only the 1%.

 

[Vast LWC]

See, he did it right there.

THE MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION would know EXACTLY what we're talking about.

It's this pretense that YOUR reality is actually...real...that is so fucking irritating. And what's a pretense but just another lie?

Negged for being an asswipe.

See, not really.

The majority of the population is not a bunch of political wonks, nor a bunch of right-wing fanatics, and therefore while they may vaguely recognize the name, they would not know enough about who Bill Ayers is to have any idea what you were talking about.

On the other hand, the majority of the people YOU KNOW, know exactly who Bill Ayers is, mainly because they're either right-wingers or political wonks.

And neg-repping someone because you don't agree with their point, which is obviously not meant to be an offensive one, is just silly.

Not to mention the fact that you neg-repped me before that post, and didn't even bother to find out what I actually meant before neg-repping me, which is even more odd.

 

[Vast LWC]

Amen. While there absolutely are trolls, idiots, and numbnuts among conservatives, when you find a conservative that doesnt fit in any of those designations, we may strongly disagree with that conservative's perspectives, but both sides will be able to focus on the specific issue and will be able to articulate a rationale for their point of view without going ad hominem or getting insulting about it. A conservative knows why he or she believes what he or she believes and can articulate it and is rarely in denial on the realities of socioeconomic and sociopolitical issues,.

The liberals who will do that are very, very rare and I really appreciate those when I do find them. I suspect the vast majority are so fuzzy on why they believe what they believe, they are honestly incapable of articulating a rationale for it and are not only in denial, but won't even discuss the realities of most issues. So all they have left are non sequitur, straw men, ad hominem, and personal insults.

Example.

Conservative: Many government programs are not helping the poor but are encouraging poverty.

Liberal: You are selfish, greedy, hate the poor and love only the 1%.

Again, much of what you say is a matter pf perspective.

And there are certainly many, many conservatives I can point to readily, on this very board, who will do exactly what you are referring to.

Example:

Liberal: "There is no scientific proof that life begins at conception, can you provide us with proof of some sort of awareness that may exist by that point?"

Conservative: "Why are you part of the vast liberal baby-murdering conspiracy? All liberals will stop at nothing in their endless quest to kill children."

And I think we all know who specifically on this very thread I am referring to.

 

[koshergrl]

I neg rep you because you're a lying piece of shit, who is lying in a thread devoted to pointing out the lies of progressive pieces of shit.

Of course I disagree with you. I'm not a fascist piece of shit.

 

[koshergrl]

And I will neg you again as soon as I possibly can.

 

[Vast LWC]

I neg rep you because you're a lying piece of shit, who is lying in a thread devoted to pointing out the lies of progressive pieces of shit.

Of course I disagree with you. I'm not a fascist piece of shit.

Case in point.

Thank you for providing me with such a colorful validation for my argument.

 

[Vast LWC]

And I will neg you again as soon as I possibly can.

Sigh. There's really no getting through to some people.

 

[koshergrl]

I didn't, but don't let that stop you from lying about it, pig.

 

[koshergrl]

And I will neg you again as soon as I possibly can.

Sigh. There's really no getting through to some people.

Not when all you have is lies.