Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
That is precisely why we have Civil Laws and precisely why Civil Law MUST trump Religious Law whenever the two conflict, and why Civil Law should try to err on the side of liberty.
Punish behavior not belief. Monsters of any faith should be isolated or terminated.
Every action is preceded by thought, belief. To punish unacceptable behavior without dealing with the beliefs that cause it is to insure its perpetuation..
It seems to me an injustice to punish certain behavior in civil court if civil law tolerates all religious teachings that inspire or condone behavior which is unacceptable in a equal and just society.
seems like a recipe for endless conflict and injustice to me.
How long was it between the time when religious people decided that alcohol was evil before civil law prohibited it and people were being shot dead over it?
How long did it take between the time when a few preachers started condemning rock and roll as the devil music before people in the pews started spitting on hippies and the police started cracking skulls?
can you see a pattern?
Beliefs are free. You cannot punish someone for the thoughts that run into his head. Dictatorships have tried that, it did not go well.
Besides, were we to have thought police, millions and millions would be in jail just for having thought once of harming or even killing their partners.
Nope, we punish behaviour, not thoughts.
Does the religious opinion that it is better to forgive sin and love your neighbor have equal value to the religious opinion that sin must be punished by chopping off your neighbors hands and feet ?
Is it not true that some religious beliefs are completely false and defile and contaminate the mind and have absolutely no positive value at all?
Or equal value of burning somebody at the stake?
I think all religious beliefs are false, including yours.
What you are basically saying is Christianity rocks, Islam sux. No religion is innocent...
Does the religious opinion that it is better to forgive sin and love your neighbor have equal value to the religious opinion that sin must be punished by chopping off your neighbors hands and feet ?
Is it not true that some religious beliefs are completely false and defile and contaminate the mind and have absolutely no positive value at all?
Or equal value of burning somebody at the stake?
I think all religious beliefs are false, including yours.
What you are basically saying is Christianity rocks, Islam sux. No religion is innocent...
No, that's not what I am saying.
What I am saying is that even in the world of opinions and the freedom of religious expression it doesn't take a genius to notice that some professed beliefs qualify as fruit that is pleasing to the eye and good to eat while other fruit is poisonous and defiles and contaminates the mind.
Or equal value of burning somebody at the stake?
I think all religious beliefs are false, including yours.
What you are basically saying is Christianity rocks, Islam sux. No religion is innocent...
No, that's not what I am saying.
What I am saying is that even in the world of opinions and the freedom of religious expression it doesn't take a genius to notice that some professed beliefs qualify as fruit that is pleasing to the eye and good to eat while other fruit is poisonous and defiles and contaminates the mind.
but that isn't the point of this thread, is it?
and if it were, who decides what beliefs are "poisonous"? you?
As a Christian born again and washed in the blood of the lamb, I suggest quietly that when folks tell us to leave them alone or not impose our views on them, to listen to what they are saying and pray about it quietly.
To watch certain Christians trying to proselytize can be quite disturbing. Always remember the Second Great Commandment. Missionary work from witnessing in the hall way to knocking on doors has to be done with love.
If all Christians were like Jake and Jeri there would be no need for the OP. Respecting the rights of others to have their own beliefs/lack thereof is first and foremost. The only way to truly gain "converts" is to live a life that others want to follow.
Agree. Might mention Judaism forbids seeking converts and even disuades potential converts. We instead teach non-Jews be whatever religion you're happy with. If you're just and righteous G-d loves you every bit as much as He does us. He just doesn't hold you to 613 commandments like He does us, you only get 7 which are all commons ense you probably find yourself doing as they occur in just about every religion. 'Don't steal' etc.
Not only that, should a non-jew want to convert, it is STRONG tradition for the attending Rabbi to try to dissuade him at least 23 times, and if, by the 24th time, he still wants to convert, then the process begins. Some claim this is law, but the number 23 is not specified in Torah.
No, that's not what I am saying.
What I am saying is that even in the world of opinions and the freedom of religious expression it doesn't take a genius to notice that some professed beliefs qualify as fruit that is pleasing to the eye and good to eat while other fruit is poisonous and defiles and contaminates the mind.
but that isn't the point of this thread, is it?
and if it were, who decides what beliefs are "poisonous"? you?
Who decides? people who have eyes that see.
How many thousands of years should observant Jews follow a literal interpretation of divine law and suffer all of the maledictions promised by Moses for setting aside the way he taught to follow the law before someone wakes up from the sleep of death and realizes there has to be a better way than the traditional literal interpretation and application??
How long do you have to talk with GISM before you realize that someone deliberately and criminally fucked up his mind for a price?
Agree. Might mention Judaism forbids seeking converts and even disuades potential converts. We instead teach non-Jews be whatever religion you're happy with. If you're just and righteous G-d loves you every bit as much as He does us. He just doesn't hold you to 613 commandments like He does us, you only get 7 which are all commons ense you probably find yourself doing as they occur in just about every religion. 'Don't steal' etc.
Not only that, should a non-jew want to convert, it is STRONG tradition for the attending Rabbi to try to dissuade him at least 23 times, and if, by the 24th time, he still wants to convert, then the process begins. Some claim this is law, but the number 23 is not specified in Torah.
Stat, I was told it was three times. Are you sure you didn't mean three? - J.
Every action is preceded by thought, belief. To punish unacceptable behavior without dealing with the beliefs that cause it is to insure its perpetuation..
It seems to me an injustice to punish certain behavior in civil court if civil law tolerates all religious teachings that inspire or condone behavior which is unacceptable in a equal and just society.
seems like a recipe for endless conflict and injustice to me.
How long was it between the time when religious people decided that alcohol was evil before civil law prohibited it and people were being shot dead over it?
How long did it take between the time when a few preachers started condemning rock and roll as the devil music before people in the pews started spitting on hippies and the police started cracking skulls?
can you see a pattern?
Beliefs are free. You cannot punish someone for the thoughts that run into his head. Dictatorships have tried that, it did not go well.
Besides, were we to have thought police, millions and millions would be in jail just for having thought once of harming or even killing their partners.
Nope, we punish behaviour, not thoughts.
If punishing behavior is what is done why not prohibit and punish those who would defile and contaminate the minds of innocent children with irrational superstitious beliefs that contradict reality and degrading religious practices that denigrate the sanctity of life?
what justice is there in punishing the victims of deception without even noticing the guilt of the deceiver?
Agree. Might mention Judaism forbids seeking converts and even disuades potential converts. We instead teach non-Jews be whatever religion you're happy with. If you're just and righteous G-d loves you every bit as much as He does us. He just doesn't hold you to 613 commandments like He does us, you only get 7 which are all commons ense you probably find yourself doing as they occur in just about every religion. 'Don't steal' etc.
Not only that, should a non-jew want to convert, it is STRONG tradition for the attending Rabbi to try to dissuade him at least 23 times, and if, by the 24th time, he still wants to convert, then the process begins. Some claim this is law, but the number 23 is not specified in Torah.
Stat, I was told it was three times. Are you sure you didn't mean three? - J.
As a Christian born again and washed in the blood of the lamb, I suggest quietly that when folks tell us to leave them alone or not impose our views on them, to listen to what they are saying and pray about it quietly.
To watch certain Christians trying to proselytize can be quite disturbing. Always remember the Second Great Commandment. Missionary work from witnessing in the hall way to knocking on doors has to be done with love.
There will be no missionary work unless the missionary is free to say:
King James Bible
Romans 3: 23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Christians are trying to convert sinners. If a person doesn't know he is a sinner he needs to be told. It is only those with horribly low self esteem who take it as a personal attack and get all indignant and self righteous about it. The exact opposite of what has been posted here. But as usual, non Christians who presume to tell Christians what they should do have it backward.
Even Jesus told Christians to stop bothering with those who will not hear what they have to say. As well they should. To not move on is self defeating.
King James Bible
Matthew 10:14
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet
It's a delight.
Except when comparing two religions. Then whether they're opinion or not, correct or not doesn't matter because the comparisons limited to the two religions 'reality bubble.' As with Christianity believing Yeshua was the Messiah, and Judaism believing he wasn't. Whether he was or not wasn't isn't relevant because the question's being restricted to a comparion of two discrete systems.
...Fast moving thread, this was for AVG-JOE.
You should stick with advising those in your own religion. You are out of line when you preach to Christians. As are the wiccans like bones, and the atheists like jillian. You have been doing that since your first day on this forum and it is not appropriate.
I am beginning to think the definition of "Christian bashing" is whenever you say something they don't want to hear, as it relates to comportment.
Spoken like a jewess who demands Christian protection throughout the world.
I am beginning to think the definition of "Christian bashing" is whenever you say something they don't want to hear, as it relates to comportment.
Spoken like a jewess who demands Christian protection throughout the world.
[MENTION=46168]Statistikhengst[/MENTION] - does she know something I don't know?
I should check with my mom's birth family.
I am beginning to think the definition of "Christian bashing" is whenever you say something they don't want to hear, as it relates to comportment.
Spoken like a jewess who demands Christian protection throughout the world.
A Jewess? Who demands christian protection? Wow! You are a hateful little git, aren't you?
Spoken like a jewess who demands Christian protection throughout the world.
[MENTION=46168]Statistikhengst[/MENTION] - does she know something I don't know?
I should check with my mom's birth family.
You may be black too....Miss Munchausen shows us a little bit more of her nastiness every time she posts.
Beliefs are free. You cannot punish someone for the thoughts that run into his head. Dictatorships have tried that, it did not go well.
Besides, were we to have thought police, millions and millions would be in jail just for having thought once of harming or even killing their partners.
Nope, we punish behaviour, not thoughts.
If punishing behavior is what is done why not prohibit and punish those who would defile and contaminate the minds of innocent children with irrational superstitious beliefs that contradict reality and degrading religious practices that denigrate the sanctity of life?
what justice is there in punishing the victims of deception without even noticing the guilt of the deceiver?
I believe that what you are getting at, Hobelim, is its wrong for one to use religion to teach their children it is justifiable to murder people, harm others in the name of their faith or in the name of G-d. It is a criminal thing to do to a child and denigrates the truth - that all life is precious and valuable. No religion should have the power or authority to kill others in Gods name.
When a religion gets so powerful that it has the ability to bring me before its courts - whether that was the time of the Inquisition or the time of the Crusades or the courts of Sharia law today - when religion becomes the weapon wielded for control? It is pure evil. Any church that claims to be THE CHURCH - the "one true faith" - should be a major warning sign that church has evil ambitions and is steeped in politics it has no business in.
What you want to hear and what you need to hear are usually two vastly different thing.
And if you could see the PMs I have gotten here from the non Christians, you would see that it is clear they need some teaching.
If punishing behavior is what is done why not prohibit and punish those who would defile and contaminate the minds of innocent children with irrational superstitious beliefs that contradict reality and degrading religious practices that denigrate the sanctity of life?
what justice is there in punishing the victims of deception without even noticing the guilt of the deceiver?
I believe that what you are getting at, Hobelim, is its wrong for one to use religion to teach their children it is justifiable to murder people, harm others in the name of their faith or in the name of G-d. It is a criminal thing to do to a child and denigrates the truth - that all life is precious and valuable. No religion should have the power or authority to kill others in Gods name.
When a religion gets so powerful that it has the ability to bring me before its courts - whether that was the time of the Inquisition or the time of the Crusades or the courts of Sharia law today - when religion becomes the weapon wielded for control? It is pure evil. Any church that claims to be THE CHURCH - the "one true faith" - should be a major warning sign that church has evil ambitions and is steeped in politics it has no business in.
We are lucky to live in a secular society where the ambitions of religions to exercise control over We the People has been curtailed by the Constitution.
That has not stopped religions from trying to regain that control by other means. All of them claim to be the "one true faith" and believe that they should be "in control".
But you are absolutely right that none of them should ever be allowed to gain control because then We the People will lose our individual right to make peace with our spiritual side. Religion is a matter between individuals and whatever they can freely choose to believe.
We must uphold each other's individual right to have this freedom because for any one of us to lose it means that so does everyone else.
