What "rights" does nature give us?

[Koios]

You asked for an example and I gave one. I am not going to muddy this thread discussing this one precise topic but it is always a great one for another forum. My point is less government in our lives can be a goal and can be attained by various ways and mean.

Oh yeah; I forgot, since you might note we moved beyond that, But if you must recap, having govmint revenue fund private ed ain't quite an "answer to people's problems without government."

Moreover, in higher ed we have it right now, vis a vis govmint backed loans. And it's great for folks that can afford it, especially the really really great universities. (Over 70% of kids in Ivey League come from families in the top 10%) But charlatans in higher-ed-drag are fleecing the poor and unsuspecting to an extent that's borderline deserving of a bad faith class action. Doing that to primary ed, in America, would be stupid to an extent bordering on the wrong side of retarded.

Simply put, sorry now I am on calls and distracted, many of us want less government in our lives because when we have more government we have less control over our destiny and our freedom and of course our money.

So ya'll keep saying, right before suggesting what we need government to do. Bit ironic, don't you agree?

 

[Dreamy]

conclusion: natural rights is an abstract notion in the minds of man

what a concept, eh?

I stand in awe without the idol worship or other nonsense concerning gods and creators. mankind is awesome to behold

Abstract? I am either born with my freedoms or I am not. I believe I am born with them. I then, in tandem with others, elect a government to protect those freedoms. Our freedoms come before government.

Love is abstract but it exists and can be shown with actions as can freedoms.

Like faking an orgasm?

Why would someone fake that which can be shown for real?

By the way there are other ways to "show love" and take the abstract and make it real, apart from orgasm, fake or otherwise. lol



Multiple orgasms is still not the answer but good try.

 

[Uncensored2008]

So ya'll keep saying, right before suggesting what we need government to do. Bit ironic, don't you agree?

The spray paint huffing did a number on you, sparky.

The fact that I don't want the entire salt shaker dumped on my fries does not mean I want no salt at all. A little is good, a lot is not.

Get it little feral one?

 

[Dreamy]

Oh yeah; I forgot, since you might note we moved beyond that, But if you must recap, having govmint revenue fund private ed ain't quite an "answer to people's problems without government."

Moreover, in higher ed we have it right now, vis a vis govmint backed loans. And it's great for folks that can afford it, especially the really really great universities. (Over 70% of kids in Ivey League come from families in the top 10%) But charlatans in higher-ed-drag are fleecing the poor and unsuspecting to an extent that's borderline deserving of a bad faith class action. Doing that to primary ed, in America, would be stupid to an extent bordering on the wrong side of retarded.

Simply put, sorry now I am on calls and distracted, many of us want less government in our lives because when we have more government we have less control over our destiny and our freedom and of course our money.

So ya'll keep saying, right before suggesting what we need government to do. Bit ironic, don't you agree?

I need government to do the will of the people. I am one of the people.

 

[Koios]

Abstract? I am either born with my freedoms or I am not. I believe I am born with them. I then, in tandem with others, elect a government to protect those freedoms. Our freedoms come before government.

Love is abstract but it exists and can be shown with actions as can freedoms.

Like faking an orgasm?

Why would someone fake that which can be shown for real?

By the way there are other ways to "show love" and take the abstract and make it real, apart from orgasm, fake or otherwise. lol



Multiple orgasms is still not the answer but good try.

My guess is she's dropped her nail file and wants to get the foolishness over with. But she says she loves me, so there you have it! Proof positive that love = tangible item. (not true; in fact google "list of tangible items." Love, freedom, best color of red, etc, ain't on the list. They'd be intangibles.)

 

[Koios]

Simply put, sorry now I am on calls and distracted, many of us want less government in our lives because when we have more government we have less control over our destiny and our freedom and of course our money.

So ya'll keep saying, right before suggesting what we need government to do. Bit ironic, don't you agree?

I need government to do the will of the people. I am one of the people.

Not how we do it in these parts. (states do, however, have referrendums)

Folks who make laws are the choice of the people. Then pray they do good work, and provide for the general welfare. Check the Con. All kinds a nifty stuff that'll explain how it works.

 

[Koios]

So ya'll keep saying, right before suggesting what we need government to do. Bit ironic, don't you agree?

The spray paint huffing did a number on you, sparky.

The fact that I don't want the entire salt shaker dumped on my fries does not mean I want no salt at all. A little is good, a lot is not.

Get it little feral one?

Boy; you can say that again! And again and again, ad nasseum. Or create a macro, which will speed it up for you.

Just helpin out.

 

[Dreamy]

Like faking an orgasm?

Why would someone fake that which can be shown for real?

By the way there are other ways to "show love" and take the abstract and make it real, apart from orgasm, fake or otherwise. lol



Multiple orgasms is still not the answer but good try.

My guess is she's dropped her nail file and wants to get the foolishness over with. But she says she loves me, so there you have it! Proof positive that love = tangible item. (not true; in fact google "list of tangible items." Love, freedom, best color of red, etc, ain't on the list. They'd be intangibles.)

Is the value of anything based on whether it is tangible?

My freedoms and my loves are the most valuable aspects of my life.

 

[Koios]

Why would someone fake that which can be shown for real?

By the way there are other ways to "show love" and take the abstract and make it real, apart from orgasm, fake or otherwise. lol



Multiple orgasms is still not the answer but good try.

My guess is she's dropped her nail file and wants to get the foolishness over with. But she says she loves me, so there you have it! Proof positive that love = tangible item. (not true; in fact google "list of tangible items." Love, freedom, best color of red, etc, ain't on the list. They'd be intangibles.)

1. Is the value of anything based on whether it is tangible?

2. My freedoms and my loves are the most valuable aspects of my life.

1. Not at all. Merely differentiating concepts and material objects, since that was getting confused by you and others.

2. Glad they're working out for you, and fingers crossed you don't change your mind, and with it, their existence, for you. (noodle on that, and you'll see how they're both conceptual.)

 

[Dreamy]

So ya'll keep saying, right before suggesting what we need government to do. Bit ironic, don't you agree?

I need government to do the will of the people. I am one of the people.

Not how we do it in these parts. (states do, however, have referrendums)

Folks who make laws are the choice of the people. Then pray they do good work, and provide for the general welfare. Check the Con. All kinds a nifty stuff that'll explain how it works.

Oh I am quite clear on how government works and how it fails. It is failing now and yes I rest some of the blame on those who vote as well as those who vote without knowledge and of course those who do not vote.

That aside, US government at the Federal level for this discussion gets it sworn orders from the USC and the people. The government often abuses both. We discuss this truth on many threads but the greater truth is we should keep their powers limited.

 

[Michelle420]

the fact that many people were not considered“people” in late eighteenth century America. No women, African Americans, or Indians and few individuals without property were allowed to cast votes. More significantly, no one alive today had anything to do with the ratification process. As Thomas Jefferson famously insisted, the world belongs to the living. It is hard to see how even a pristine process that perfectly captured the views of eighteenth century America can bind the very different people who populate the United States today.

http://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1160&context=fwps_papers

Why are we bound to constitutional obedience anyway, the document was written pre-industrialization and bias it excluded many in that (we the people) schpeel.

 

[Koios]

I need government to do the will of the people. I am one of the people.

Not how we do it in these parts. (states do, however, have referrendums)

Folks who make laws are the choice of the people. Then pray they do good work, and provide for the general welfare. Check the Con. All kinds a nifty stuff that'll explain how it works.

Oh I am quite clear on how government works and how it fails. It is failing now and yes I rest some of the blame on those who vote as well as those who vote without knowledge and of course those who do not vote.

That aside, US government at the Federal level for this discussion gets it sworn orders from the USC and the people. The government often abuses both. We discuss this truth on many threads but the greater truth is we should keep their powers limited.

Great news. Mind sharing how?

 

[M14 Shooter]

now all you have to do is go live in a world where government doesn't exist.

Not at all - my point was proven, by you.

Without government man is free to do whatever he can given his circumstances, not what he wants

Again, thank you.

without government I am free to murder my neighbor and get away with it if I can. I can then rape his wife and enslave his children.

cool, eh?

Clearly you do not understand the concept of "rights" amd have no idea what this conversation is about.

Without government man is free to do whatever he can given his circumstances, not what he wants

Never-the-less, you proved my positrion correct. Thank you.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Not at all - my point was proven, by you.

Without government man is free to do whatever he can given his circumstances, not what he wants

Again, thank you.

without government I am free to murder my neighbor and get away with it if I can. I can then rape his wife and enslave his children.

That's exactly right. That's why we need government, because natural rights can come into conflict.

Governments are brought into force to protect natural rights.
Thus, of course, necessitates that those rights pre-exist, and therefore exist independent of, government.

 

[M14 Shooter]

without government I am free to murder my neighbor and get away with it if I can. I can then rape his wife and enslave his children.

cool, eh?

Yet another lame straw man argument...Nobody on this thread has advocated anarchy.

It's the natural byproduct of no functioning government. If you don't believe that, grab the wife and kiddies and vacay in Somalia. Fun for the whole family and no govmint decidin' ya'll's rights, bygod.

Which, of course, in no way negates the argument for the existence of natural rights.

 

[M14 Shooter]

without government I am free to murder my neighbor and get away with it if I can. I can then rape his wife and enslave his children.

cool, eh?

A valid argument against anarchy.

But then, no one put forth an argument FOR anarchy.

M14 Shooter did, and it was fucking bolded.

False.
False.
And again, false.
My quotation of Dante's statement serves to prove my argument regardiong natural rights correct; you'll have to explain in great detail how it, or my argument, advocates for anarchy.
Please proceed.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

you may believe that, but I doubt even the North Koreans all do. I may believe it on a philosophical level, but then reality kicks in

Doesn't matter, you already admitted I am right.

stop being an idiot. saying it is in some people's nature to demand freedom is not the same as saying there is a natural right to freedom.

To say I believe people should be free, is not akin to saying people have to be free because nature demands it.


Man's nature versus Nature. get IT yet?

Really? The fact that people, and animals, have a natural inclination to be free doesn't prove that it the concept of freedom is not man made concept? Can you explain that without resorting to insults?

Didn't think so, so use insults and feel free not to explain it.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

you and the other imbecile seen totally confused

you are confusing. the discussion is about an amendment negating a right. in that situation a person could go to court asking it to decide which right trumped the other. happens all the time.

don't make me help you look like a bigger fool than you are already.


---



What I said was:
"An amendment like that could be added, but then it would be taken into the courts. Why do you have such difficulty understanding the system we have??" -- I did not say the court would decide the validity of the amendment. The Supreme Court has decided cases where conflicting rights/issues/amendments were before them.

I am not confused, the Constitution is the highest law of the land. You might be able to file a case in court challenging an amendment to a state constitution, but it will not work in challenging the federal one. That is why they specifically passed an amendment to repeal prohibition, courts do not have authority to do so.

See? Dante never said one could challenge a federal amendment.

What he said was a slave could ask the court to look at rights under conflicting amendments

Does Dante offer suffer delusions about what he said and who he is?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

their right to freedom comes out of their minds. In Africa, were they were first enslaved, there was no law to appeal to that I know of. They demanded a right recognized by the US Government

In Africa slavery was a way of life. Tribes often captured members of other tribes and enslaved them, and a major portion of the slave trade was founded upon tribes capturing members of other tribes.

So I guess you believe Africans were savages violating nature's laws? How very White Man of you if you do.

Yep, that is what I said.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

conclusion: natural rights is an abstract notion in the minds of man

what a concept, eh?

So is gubmint.

Care to lend me a bucket of it?....I promise to pay you back with a barrel of it at the end of the month.

except no one but mostly conservative, White Christians is saying nature/god has anything to with the government/USA. some of the same people saying natural rights are god given